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^ awesome, i think they are the only country in the world that operates both typhoons and rafales?
 
^ awesome, i think they are the only country in the world that operates both typhoons and rafales?
Egypt may join that club soon


It will be interesting to see just how Egypt can fly such a mixed airforce compromising Rafales, Typhoons MiG-29M1/M2 and F-16s.
 
^ awesome, i think they are the only country in the world that operates both typhoons and rafales?
Egypt may join that club soon

I've heard its a package deal with the Italians and the deal also includes few FREMMs. Quite an expenditure, considering they are still building their new capital.
 
The bases surely have their own backup power sources. This just means you aren't running diesels on the flight line.
But do all potential deployment bases? And what is their maximum capacity?

I'd be fairly shocked if they did not. It's not like Typhoon is a plane you deploy to austere FOBs, after all.
 

Turkey exploring massive UK arms deal involving planes, ships and tank engines​

Multibillion-dollar deal for Eurofighter jets, transport planes, frigates and tank engines is being discussed as Turkey faces procurement hurdles in the US

Turkey has held talks with the United Kingdom over the possible sale of a large package of weapons, including fighter jets, transport planes, engines and frigates, three separate sources familiar with the discussions told Middle East Eye.

Turkish defence minister Hulusi Akar visited London on Sunday, meeting his British counterpart, Ben Wallace.

The sources said that during their meeting Akar and Wallace explored the possibility of Ankara purchasing Eurofighter jets, C-130J transport planes and Type 23 frigates, as well as engines for Turkey’s outdated M60 battle tanks. The estimated value of such a deal is well over $10bn, according to the sources.

“We are evaluating our options on these platforms but we aren’t in the final stages of negotiations,” said one of the Turkish sources, who spoke to MEE on the condition of anonymity because they are not authorised to speak to the media.

Commenting on the talks, a UK Ministry of Defence spokesperson told Middle East Eye: “The Defence Secretary met with his Turkish counterpart to discuss strengthening defence ties between the two countries. They spoke on a range of topics including procurement, with progress made in a number of areas.”

Obstacles in Washington​

The move comes as Ankara faces difficulties acquiring 40 new F-16 aircraft and 79 modernisation kits for its existing F-16 fleet because of opposition in the US Congress.

Many US lawmakers, including Senator Bob Menendez, who chairs the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, have declared that they would oppose such a move over Ankara’s alleged aggression against its allies and neighbours, including Greece.

US officials have told their Turkish counterparts that dropping the conditions Turkey has set for Sweden to become a Nato member will help remove opposition to the fighter aircraft deal in Congress.

Turkey has one of the largest F-16 fleets in the region, but the planes are reaching the end of their lifespan.

Ankara finds itself with an unexpected conundrum, since it designed its medium-term air defence needs based on the acquisition of fifth-generation F-35 jets. The US government officially kicked Turkey out of the F-35 programme in 2019 over the latter’s purchase of Russian-made S-400 air defence systems.

Several Turkish officials told MEE in June that they might be interested in buying Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes from the UK if Turkey's F-16 purchase request to the US did not progress. Eurofighter Typhoons are produced by a consortium of companies from the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.

One industry insider told MEE this week that Turkey was looking to purchase two squadrons of Eurofighters, amounting to between 24 to 48 units

A second source, who also spoke on condition of anonymity, said Ankara’s Eurofighter acquisition wouldn’t be an easy process, since it would require a lot of technical adjustments and training within the Turkish Armed Forces.

The source added that the Turkish military was becoming increasingly familiar with the platform, since Qatar is also believed to have sent some of its Eurofighter jets to Turkey under a bilateral deal that allows Doha to deploy its air force in Turkey.

Turkey has its own nationally designed and produced fighter jet programmes, such as TFX and Hurjet, but they aren’t battle proven and their date of delivery may change depending on the production line. This is why the Turkish military is looking for temporary solutions.

Akar and Wallace also discussed the possible procurement of C-130J military transport planes, according to the sources. The UK’s Defence Equipment Sales Authority (Desa) put its C-130J transport planes on sale in October. In its brochure, Desa added that 14 C-130J tactical aircraft would be made available for acquisition as they come out of service between 2023 and 2025.

The first source told MEE that C-130J, the most advanced version of the transport plane, would be a good addition to Turkey’s inventory, which is stretched because of Ankara’s missions to Libya.

“We already have C-130s in our inventory, it is an aircraft we already know well,” the Turkish source said. “We have necessary know-how to maintain and modernise them." The source added that Ankara has made heavy use of its fleet of A400Ms in Libya, which was building pressure on the aircraft.

UK-Turkey defence collaboration​

The two defence ministers are also looking for ways to find a British supplier to modernise Turkey's M60 tanks. The sources said Ankara’s own tank project, Altay, had been facing engine procurement issues and was running very late. “The military would like to maintain its battle readiness,” the first source added.

Middle East Eye has written to the British Ministry of Defence asking for comment. MEE reported on Thursday that the UK is also negotiating a deal to sell at least three Type 23 frigates to Turkey, which were slated for sale by the UK's defence ministry for 2023.

It isn't clear whether Ankara would be able to make a final decision on these potential purchases before presidential elections later this year. A new government might have different ideas about procurement plans.

Turkey and the UK have close defence relations due to their Nato partnership, but there is industrial cooperation as well. UK engine maker Rolls-Royce and its local partner Kale are expected to supply an engine for Ankara's first home-built fighter jet, the TF-X.

The UK-based BAE Systems is also collaborating closely with Turkish Aerospace Industries in the development of the jet, including its stealth technology.

The United Kingdom completely lifted all of its restrictions on the export of defence products to Turkey last May. Restrictions had been brought in following Ankara's 2019 offensive in northeast Syria.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-uk-massive-arms-deal-planes-ships-tank-engines
 
Well I went down the rabbit hole and it seems as the speculations all began with this one random Malaysian twitter user claiming that BBC has made it news and that some other sources are also claiming it (which is not true)

Although this deal seems likely, we still have to just wait and see.
 
I don't wanna go off topic, but I really start to wonder how Turkey can afford all of this. For instance, they have TFX and a domestic engine in development as well, which is for sure consuming a ****load of money.
Although Turkey has about the same population as Germany, the GDP is much smaller.
 
I don't wanna go off topic, but I really start to wonder how Turkey can afford all of this. For instance, they have TFX and a domestic engine in development as well, which is for sure consuming a ****load of money.
Although Turkey has about the same population as Germany, the GDP is much smaller.
The foreign buy is GDP intensive. I do agree that it can be surprising.
National development is less resource intensive: national means local expenses.

Then, it's possible that Turkey had already allocated some resources for fighter jets through the F-35 failed acquisition and tentative F-16 buy.
 
A quick Google search shows that there are no Eurofighter Typhoon and Turkey news stories anywhere on BBC Websites.

MiddleEastEye was reporting on a potential $10bn deal the other day, no numbers or variants mentioned. However, they are not a reliable source by any stretch...they're up there with the Eurasian Times.

It's also worth noting that any deal would need to be announced by BAE Systems immediately as a publicly traded company on the Stock Market they have a fiduciary duty to report such events immediately.

And no Defence Journalists of note are reporting it either...

At the very least I'd put this in the 'unconfirmed' pile....but more likely its a load of rubbish at present.
 
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I don't wanna go off topic, but I really start to wonder how Turkey can afford all of this. For instance, they have TFX and a domestic engine in development as well, which is for sure consuming a ****load of money.
Although Turkey has about the same population as Germany, the GDP is much smaller.
The foreign buy is GDP intensive. I do agree that it can be surprising.
National development is less resource intensive: national means local expenses.

Then, it's possible that Turkey had already allocated some resources for fighter jets through the F-35 failed acquisition and tentative F-16 buy.
Y'know I've realised that most people talk about Turkey as if they're talking about Pakistan.

If a country with the population and economy size of Greece can procure 70 new aircraft and modernize some 80 more, so can Turkey.

Yes the inflation is soaring crazy high and the economy is not doing great but it still is a ~1 trillion dollar economy.

There are around 700 or so active development/nationalization projects going on. Some of them are privately funded such as the case with Hurjet and Kizilelma and some are state funded such as the MMU/TF-X.

Even allocating a tad bit of all the thriftlessness of government spending would make a substantial difference.

Also when it comes to this possible Eurofighter procurement we're now talking about, TurAF actually has only procured 29 or so new F-16B50s in the last 20 years and has waited all this time for the F-35 to become available. The first aircraft was supposed to arrive in the country in 2014 but the Airforce & the Presidency of Defence Industries wanted to get the most bang for the buck so they put off the order continuously and awaited for the Block 3 deliveries to begin.

I don't even need to remind you that the F-35 wasn't planned as the sole fighter aircraft in the whole fleet, it was always meant to operate next to MMU that would replace the F-16s.

They allocated resources in the last 20 years for the F-35 and actually planned to put a massive order of 120+ aircraft. Now that this hasn't realized, they can use those some of those funds for ~48 Eurofighters and the rest for the serial production of the MMU.
 
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Just to add to my comment above. The MiddleEastEye also reported the UK negotiations included...

C-130J sale - Certainly possible as the UK retires its fleet....but it would also need US approval...

Tank Engines - Rather a surprise as we don't make any....there are 2 Cummins engine plants in the UK but they don't make a suitable engine

3 x Type 23 Frigates - There is possibly 2 Type 23 Frigate that could be sold. HMS Monmouth and HMS Montrose. Monmouth has already been decommissioned and stripped of kit. Montrose apparently is being decommissioned this year, but whether that happens is debatable. She was planned to soldier on for another 4 years but the review in 2021 decided to cut her, that could be in flux again due to present events....However, there is no 3rd Type 23 available and there won't be until the T26 and T31 start to arrive in service in 5+ years.
 
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MiddleEastEye was reporting on a potential $10bn deal the other day, no numbers or variants mentioned. However, they are not a reliable source by any stretch...they're up there with the Eurasian Times.
They are actually pretty reliable with their Turkey reporting. They always managed to report any defence procurement news before anyone else and it is clear that they have reliable sources.
 
Just to add to my comment above. The MiddleEastEye also reported the UK negotiations included...

C-130J sale - Certainly possible as the UK retires its fleet....but it would also need US approval...

Tank Engines - Rather a surprise as we don't make any....there are 2 Cummins engine plants in the UK but they don't make a suitable engine

3 x Type 23 Frigates - There is possibly 2 Type 23 Frigate that could be sold. HMS Monmouth and HMS Montrose. Monmouth has already been decommissioned and stripped of kit. Monmouth apparently is being decommissioned this year, but whether that happens is debatable. She was planned to soldier on for another 4 years but the review in 2021 decided to cut her, that could be in flux again due to present events....However, there is no 3rd Type 23 available and there won't be until the T26 and T31 start to arrive in service in 5+ years.
Even though there's the Leo 2a4s, the best and most liked tanks the Army currently has are the M60T and TM Sabras. The 2nd Army that faces Georgian and Armenian borders still uses "grandpa" M48s so in such an urgent and desperate situation it makes sense to modernise M60A3s.

There are only a dozen of Altays around and Leo 2s as a stop-gap solution are out of the question because no one would give Turkey any and although the Germans nervously shifted the blame to Turkey, the Army has found some serious flaws in Leo 2s.

There's a national 1000hp powerpack called UTKU that is planned for Firtina 2 SPHs but they're only going to become available in 2025 and are pretty much reserved for the SPHs.
 
Tank Engines - Rather a surprise as we don't make any....there are 2 Cummins engine plants in the UK but they don't make a suitable engine

3 x Type 23 Frigates - There is possibly 2 Type 23 Frigate that could be sold. HMS Monmouth and HMS Montrose. Monmouth has already been decommissioned and stripped of kit. Monmouth apparently is being decommissioned this year, but whether that happens is debatable. She was planned to soldier on for another 4 years but the review in 2021 decided to cut her, that could be in flux again due to present events....However, there is no 3rd Type 23 available and there won't be until the T26 and T31 start to arrive in service in 5+ years.
Yes I was wondering about the tank engine thing myself. I can't think of any suitable engine.

I couldn't think of three Type 23s that would be available either, or immediate plans to retire three (though it wouldn't surprise me these days). I don't think Monmouth would be saleable having been stripped unless Turkey (or another buyer) stepped up some cash to buy new kit. But there is of course nothing stopping Turkey placing dibs on three ships as and when they do retire, should they really want three 30-year old hulls.

The fact we haven't heard much, if anything, about this from UK media makes me suspicious.
 
Yes I was wondering about the tank engine thing myself. I can't think of any suitable engine.

I couldn't think of three Type 23s that would be available either, or immediate plans to retire three (though it wouldn't surprise me these days). I don't think Monmouth would be saleable having been stripped unless Turkey (or another buyer) stepped up some cash to buy new kit. But there is of course nothing stopping Turkey placing dibs on three ships as and when they do retire, should they really want three 30-year old hulls.

The fact we haven't heard much, if anything, about this from UK media makes me suspicious.

Cummins and Perkins both have factories in the UK but neither makes a tank engine pack.

Of the remaining T23's all have had the LIFEX (inc. Montrose) with Artisan and Sea Ceptor added. RN won't allow any that have had the diesel gensets changed under the PGMU programme to go as they need to last into the 2030's. Same with the ships with Sonar 2087. That takes 7 ships out of the 11 remaining (with Monmouth and Montrose not on the list) straight out of the mix.

Weirdly it made more sense to get rid of Argyll and Lancaster than Montrose, which might indicate that the last few years of hard service in the Gulf have taken their toll....Iron Duke is of a similar age but has had PGMU so looks like it will stay in service a lot longer.

Plus....I'm not sure if, by the time the RN gets rid of them, if the Type 23's will have any real life left. They weren't designed to last as long as they have and the RN has run them hard.
 
Buying some 30 year old ships does not make sense at all when you have a shipbuilding industry of your own that could build ships quicker than you can get Type-23s handed over.


View: https://twitter.com/navalnewscom/status/1617822969715359745?t=vNUFlgGJ3sGDMNJ2pGJoOQ&s=19

View: https://twitter.com/SavunmaSanayiST/status/1617810283585753089?t=-5m5XA_Uhc2O_5DxGyZS1Q&s=19



Minister of National Defense Akar replied to the allegations that Type-23 frigates will be procured from the UK: "There is nothing concrete or definite"


I suspect that they became a part of the bargain to get a concession of a mission computer access for integrating primarily Turkish air to air and air to ground munitions.
 
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As someone else said on a different forum:

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.

F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.
 
I am pretty sure RR would have to compartiment their advanced engine effort due to Japan concern regarding tech transfer toward China.

Hence, the probability off each engine costing 15million is low.
 

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