Electric vehicle discussion

Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:

SVolt Energy Readies Solid-State Battery With 400 Wh/Kg Energy Density For Production - CleanTechnica

Svolt Energy says it has cracked the code to making solid-state sulfide batteries that promise long life and long range.
cleantechnica.com cleantechnica.com
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Oh, goody. 0.4 Whr/kg. That's better than 0.25, but still comes off poor compared to 13.
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Of course we need to compare the weight etc for the engine, exhaust, drive shafts if 4wd etc.

And only 30% of that energy reaches the wheels…..

The sooner we have little ‘trains’ running on the roads, powered by fairy dust, the better.
 
I read something about all the money the car makers was losing because of the all electric
car and trucks they were making. Anybody know anything about this?
 
The one trick 'My little ponies' are obviously having to ramp up gratuities to their electric fan backers' so they can reap rewards earlier. Money still talks and factoidz, well they don't.
 
For most individual users, vehicle weight is not a problem and you can deal with range or recharge speed problems with EVs simply by stuffing it with more batteries. The only serious problem is cost of battery.

The improvements in battery technology is cancelled out by supply side squeeze. Lithium is up 18x from a few years ago. The supply side takes years to build up the relevant infrastructure so it probably wouldn't get better in the very short term. (look for boom bust somewhere in the late 20s?)

muttly said:
I read something about all the money the car makers was losing because of the all electric
car and trucks they were making. Anybody know anything about this?
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As of now, only Tesla "we sell 35k car for 55k" and Byd "we make batteries" are making a profit on EVs, other automakers are not and is building it out of emissions regulations, market positions or ramp up to scale.

In a era of shortage of both battery materials and battery production capacity, all the profits gets sucked up the supply chain.

Grey Havoc said:
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edwest3 said:
www.reuters.com

Biden awards $2.8 billion to boost U.S. minerals output for EV batteries

The Biden administration said on Wednesday it is awarding $2.8 billion in grants to boost U.S. production of electric vehicle batteries and the minerals used to build them, part of a bid to wean the country off supplies from China.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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Local mining and industrial interests simply have more pull than remote ones that do not hire workers that vote. The time is young, but eventually we'd understand there is big Lithium and big solar to beat out big oil.

The uneven distribution of critical resources is a economic-strategic weakness of fossil fuels that the new energy regime will not suffer from. Areas with weak oil production like China or Europe have every incentive to end extortion from the likes of OPEC.

On some level the whole Russian war thing probably flipped more people in Europe into attempting to kill oil outright.

China also is extremely aware that their economy can be destroyed if someone parks a hostile carrier task force on the Malacca, and thus push for EVs.
 
In other news, all diesel and petrol vehicles will be sent to China to be scrapped, along with massive amounts of Unlok (TM) to separate various parts for recycling.
 
High-capacity EV-batteries:
Dutch battery innovator LeydenJar has secured the funding to build its first factory to produce silicon anode foil. The company will invest €60 million in the construction of its first production facility, called “Plant One”, of which €30 million comes from a European Investment Bank loan facility. This financing is supported by the InnovFin Energy Demonstration Projects of the European Commission, funded by EU’s research & innovation framework program.

The rest of the financing comes from LeydenJar’s client projects, earlier committed grants and the Series A investment round in 2021.The production facility is expected to be built in the province of Noord-Brabant, creating employment locally, and should be fully operational by 2026. The aim of the plant is to prepare the silicon anode foil for mass production, subsequently bringing down the cost.
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www.eib.org

Netherlands: LeydenJar secures EU backing in financing of new battery factory

Dutch battery innovator LeydenJar has secured the funding to build its first factory to produce silicon anode foil. The company will invest €60 million in the construction of its first production facility, called “Plant One”, of which €30 million comes from a European Investment Bank loan...
www.eib.org www.eib.org
 
tech.slashdot.org

Tesla Model Y Is Now the Best-Selling Car In All of Europe - Slashdot

Tesla Model Y became the best-selling car in all of Europe in November. It's for the second time, and not just for electric vehicles, but all cars. Electrek reports: According to data from Automotive News Europe, Tesla delivered nearly 20,000 Model Y vehicles in Europe last month: "Tesla sold...
tech.slashdot.org

Hmmmmmmm
 
Joe Biden’s green subsidies may backfire, warns EU commissioner (Financial Times/ft.com, subscription or registration may be required)

America’s massive green subsidies plan risks backfiring by driving European companies closer to China, a top EU policymaker warned as he said that talks with the Biden administration were unlikely to solve all the issues Europe had with the legislation.

Valdis Dombrovskis, EU trade commissioner, said that while the $369bn Inflation Reduction Act was in part an attempt by the US to curb its reliance on China, it could have the opposite effect in Europe by making “overtures and propositions” from Beijing more interesting. This, he said, “may work against the stated aim of the Inflation Reduction Act”.

Dombrovskis spoke before the release of guidance by Washington on Thursday indicating that EU companies could benefit from a tax credit scheme for commercial clean vehicles — a move Brussels sees as a welcome first step but which does not alleviate all its concerns.

The US legislation contained in a $369bn package involves subsidies and tax credits for green technologies and manufacturing, including electric vehicles, batteries and hydrogen. It attempts to bolster US investment in such sectors while reducing US reliance on Chinese products and knowhow.

The European Commission has warned that the act discriminates against EU-based companies and threatens the bloc’s industrial base. It has formed a task force with the White House in a bid to resolve the dispute.

While there are signs of movement by the Biden administration in the key areas of electric vehicles and batteries, this would only alleviate some of the issues, Dombrovskis said in an interview. “If there are those outcomes, it would solve part of our problems, not all of our problems,” he said, stressing that the IRA involves a “much broader” range of sectors.

“When this work is over we will need to take stock of where we are and see what our options are . . . We would need to look at further elements [on] how to rebalance the playing field.”

US president Joe Biden said this month during a visit to Washington by French president Emmanuel Macron that “tweaks” to the rules could make it easier for European companies to participate in the regime.

Dombrovskis flagged two key areas where the transatlantic discussions are focused. The US legislation requires electric cars to be assembled in North America to be eligible for a $7,500 consumer tax credit — to the dismay of automakers in Europe, South Korea and elsewhere. However, this provision does not apply to commercial electric vehicles.

On Thursday night the commission welcomed new US guidance indicating EU companies could benefit from the commercial clean vehicle credits under the IRA, saying it reflected “constructive engagement” by the two sides. However Brussels stressed it remained concerned by discriminatory provisions affecting other clean vehicles.

[snip]
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So-called cryptocurrency is too susceptible to theft and fraud. Like the classic Wall Street stock "pump and dump," it's possible to create a coin/token, buy low, inflate the price and cash out, leaving others with a less valuable coin, or nothing. Thousands of coins have been created, meaning thousands of little banks/financial institutions have been created but with no oversight, no controls. So it becomes the Wild, Wild West, and people have lost billions in real dollars. The tactics involved are very old. Convince potential investors to invest by making certain promises, then a small percentage take the money coming in, buy a yacht or expensive homes, and do whatever to enrich themselves. That's the real appeal: to get rich quickly.

But somehow, billions of dollars in losses don't seem to matter
 
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TU Eindhoven: Recharging an electric car in the time it takes to fill your petrol tank.
www.tue.nl

InMotion develops fastest-charging electric race car in the world

A 24-hour test showed minimal degradation of the battery pack after fast charging.
www.tue.nl www.tue.nl
Charging an electric race car at the speed of normal refueling? TU/e student team InMotion is getting alarmingly close with the development of the Revolution. The racing monster is capable of fully recharging in less than four minutes, making it the fastest-charging electric race car for long-distance racing in the world, as far as known.

InMotion started designing and producing the new battery pack in the race car with more than thirty students in November 2022. What's remarkable is that this battery pack charges in just 3 minutes and 56 seconds, with a charging power of 322 kW, a total capacity of 29.2 kWh, and a range of approximately 250 kilometers. Reducing the charging time for electric cars is important to make electric driving easier and therefore more accessible for consumers. InMotion has taken up that challenge and is now truly getting close to a pit-stop-worthy charging time.

Innovation: cooling on cell level​

During fast charging, a significant amount of heat is generated, leading to accelerated degradation of the battery cells, explains team manager Julia Niemeijer. "In the past, we developed an innovative cooling technology at module level, where cooling plates filled with coolant were placed between the modules containing the cells. This allowed us to extract a lot of heat from the pack. If you want to extract heat as efficiently as possible from the battery pack, you want to cool as close as possible to the battery cells. Therefore, we have developed a method recently that enables cooling at the cell level, with actual coolant flowing between each cell. This means we can extract even more heat from the pack. It has a tremendously positive effect on the lifespan and repeated fast charging. A 24-hour test shows minimal degradation of the battery pack as a result."
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Lc89 said:
Why would anyone buy an abortion on 4 wheels?
Above all, why does a politician have to force people to buy them? They have to stop.
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Common response:
Hobbes said:
In order to improve things, people sometimes need a nudge in the right direction. EVs reduce pollution and enable energy independence. Both of these are good things.
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Then provide financial incentives, not bans.

I live in an apartment complex. I cannot install a charging station where I live. Neither can anyone else living in an apartment.

I'd generally be a very good candidate for an EV, 99% of my driving is under 50 miles. I basically make one trip a year over 300 miles, but if the weather is bad that instantly turns into a 600 mile trip due to the mountains and roads around here. If US95 is close due to a landslide (happens about once a decade) or avalanche (depends on snow pack, last time was 2016), I have to either detour 250 miles west to US395 or detour 225 miles east to Interstate 15.



Archibald said:
I'm not a great fan of EV because methanol or ammonia could substitute to gasoline more easily, in IC cars and hybrids.
Main problem is to produce these fuels without CO2 (ammonia) or famine (methanol)...

Why no E85 / hybrid cars, btw ? sounds good to me. Even classic IC cars can be run on E85.
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You need to have an alcohol-safe fuel system and an enlarged fuel pump in general; and bigger injectors with a flex fuel sensor, which usually means a new computer in cars with electronic fuel injection, or you need dedicated alcohol metering blocks in carburetors. Alcohol in carbureted cars is an either/or option. Either alcohol carbs or gas carbs, you cannot swap between fuels on the fly.

Not that it cannot be done, just that it's a pain for carbureted cars. One project of mine is a 1969 Firebird vintage race car/tribute car, "What if Pontiac got the Ram Air 5 303 engine sorted out in time." I will need 3 or 4 different carburetion setups (single and dual four-barrel carbs, gas and ethanol) for it. Fortunately the intake I will be using makes it easy to swap carbs as it has a top plate that holds 1 or 2 carbs, I will swap the entire top plate and call it done. Proper engineering means I pull something like 6 bolts, and disconnect the fuel line and throttle cable.

All my other projects are going to be fuel injected, so they just get flex fuel sensors and big fuel pumps+injectors. Oh, and one diesel. Biodiesel just means replacing the fuel filter about 50 miles after you switch between normal diesel and biodiesel.



Hobbes said:
And why shouldn't we talk about global warming? Electrification is an excellent method for lowering CO2 emissions, mainly because electric powertrains are vastly more efficient than ICEs.
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Because if you live in Europe, most of your electricity is generated by coal. Especially if you live in Germany. If you live on the US East Coast, most of your electricity is generated by coal. My electricity is generated by Hydropower so generates no carbon, but they're talking about breaching the dams to attempt to restore salmon runs. What's going to replace the dams for generation? nothing. Wind is already about maxed out locally, nuclear isn't an option politically, solar is marginal due to dust in the air...

All EVs do is shift the point of emissions from the individual tailpipe to the powerplant.

Also, the grid is NOT ready for a 100% increase in electricity consumption, not anywhere in the US. California? It's illegal to build or enlarge any power generation station, and they've banned the use of small engines like electrical generators effective 2025. They're already having brownouts from a lack of grid capacity.


Arjen said:
TU Eindhoven: Recharging an electric car in the time it takes to fill your petrol tank.
www.tue.nl

InMotion develops fastest-charging electric race car in the world

A 24-hour test showed minimal degradation of the battery pack after fast charging.
www.tue.nl www.tue.nl
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Oh, that's awesome!

Painfully small capacity, but that's fixable for a real car. Just double the number of cells. Or quadruple it for an EV truck/RV.
 
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Battery-Electric vehicles are generally heavier so require more in the way of breaking and turning the car wears tyrs faster. These are also emmisions affectors.

Not to mention the rare earth metals being mined which pollutes too.

Possibly restricting the afvance to BE makes sense to some, sorry but I do not get it. The only benefit from that is to investors which funnily enough, is the biggest influence on political decisions.

We have a lot of smart people, let them loose and see where we get, hopefully more quickly than nopw too.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Battery-Electric vehicles are generally heavier so require more in the way of breaking and turning the car wears tyrs faster. These are also emmisions affectors.
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Barring weird crap like the Hummer EV, not significantly. The F150 EV is the same weight as the gas version. Other EVs are maybe 500lbs heavier at most.


Foo Fighter said:
Possibly restricting the afvance to BE makes sense to some, sorry but I do not get it. The only benefit from that is to investors which funnily enough, is the biggest influence on political decisions.

We have a lot of smart people, let them loose and see where we get, hopefully more quickly than nopw too.
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If I had a house, or my landlord installed ~40 charging stations, I'd honestly be just about the perfect candidate for an EV. I drive maybe 20 miles at a trip in town.
 
Well, I went car free. I could not get into my old VW, had her for over thirty five years but she has gone to a friend who 'gets' aircooled VW's. Better than selling her for whatever and having to fight over the price and he knows her well having worked on her a lot.

Being hassled to acquire a motability car on a pcp type of contract over three years.

Possibly but not yet a while and never BE electric.

Not been anywhere that I need a car for, groceries are delivered and until I can get about a bit more the point is lost.

I would consider days out as a good reason to have a car becuase here in the UK, getting anywhere by public transport is a study in futility. During the commuter rush it is almost impossible to get very far and if you travel on a rail card you have to travel outside that anyway.

Looking forwards to something a bit special like Bess but not sure what. SUV and 4X4? No thank you. A nice conundrum, perhaps I could end up with something different? Skateboard with an F110 or an RB-211? Great for the supermarket run.
 
Now, a perfect car would be a full frame under a Tesla…with an ICE powering the Tesla battery and some lead-acid batteries…no transmission. Battery dead? Turn a switch and just run off the internal combustion engine.

I want options.
 
If I lived near hydrogen refueling infrastructure, I would have been driving a fuel cell powered Honda or Toyota years ago. I have absolutely interest in a Tesla or any other non-Japanese branded car. Sadly, there is absolutely no viable alternative to a Tesla for battery electric vehicles. Musk essentially has a monopoly. After huge financial outlays, no other non-Chinese BEV has been commercially successful. Period.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with LiFePo chemistry in the base Tesla Model E and Y. The only real problem, aside from the dubious aesthetics, is that the build quality and reliability of the non drivetrain components aren’t up to Toyota or Honda standards. That, and the fact that there hasn’t been a single new public charging point built in my region in the last 5 years. Judged solely by the stagnation of charging infrastructure, you’d think that my state was planning a drawdown electric vehicles, not scheduling a phaseout of the internal combustion vehicle.

In any case, I’m maintaining my current petrol powered cars and trucks. I even spent a king’s ransom to repairing the biggest gas guzzler. I don’t plan on buying another petrol powered vehicle or wasting my money on a very interim battery powered one. I’ll just wait for my fuel cell powered future. Or the grim dystopia where everyone is forced to drive a Tesla.
 

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