Electric vehicle discussion

I agree with most of what Hobbes said.

The other issue, if your running these high speed 'car-trains' on the open highway, is great uncle Fred, who likes to drive his 1948 Morris Minor, complete with semaphore indicators, on the motorway, sometimes he gets up to 45 mph!!

The 'best' charging system would be induction, so special areas or lanes where power was available, as mentioned your not going to run the whole shebang, its going to be more of a range extender, and probably sold as a premium service as well.
 
@shin_getter : There is some solutions to the problem you've listed. Speed, for example, is the only way forward against nocive emissivity and generalized traffic jams paralyzing entire cities (the less time every car spends on motorways the less congested they are).
But there is some tricks: times ago I designed a small conceptual vehicle that could link themselves on the fly. I am not going to get down in all the details but if you take the combined power of a dozen vehicles with adequate aerodynamics, you'll get a dynamically configured vehicle able to sustain speed only known to trains on long range.

I had always envisioned hyperloops working that way (it's not the case, obviously).

Once again. It's not that simple but a lot of what is needed is reasonably doable today. The main obstacle would be sociological in most countries where speed is seen as a crime, automobile are the archetype of individualism and asset management the main driver of some economy (the more distance you are able to commute, the less the value of historic area).
 
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For manually piloted vehicles, the optimum speed for combating congestion is around 80 km/h. At higher speeds, traffic density must decrease to allow for enough distance between vehicles for emergency braking.
Higher speeds are possible only when all vehicles are autonomous, and we're a long way away (I'd estimate several decades) from that happening.
 
Hobbes said:
For manually piloted vehicles, the optimum speed for combating congestion is around 80 km/h. At higher speeds, traffic density must decrease to allow for enough distance between vehicles for emergency braking.
Higher speeds are possible only when all vehicles are autonomous, and we're a long way away (I'd estimate several decades) from that happening.
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Case in point: Bordeaux motorway - presently third worse in France. Only topped by b) Marseille motorway (kalashnikov mandatories there) and Paris périphérique (mandatory APC there).

Driving on Bordeaux motorway I often think one half of the drivers are Hannibal Lecter perverted pyschopaths and the other half have Forrest Gump level of I.Q.
I kid you not - in 15 years it hasn't changed, certainly not improved and probably got worse.
What is startling is that there is seemingly no middleground - it is either murderous SOBs or dumb people cranked past 11 - one wonder how they got their driving licence in the first place.

Typical situation: stuck behind a Forrest Gump driving at snail pace. Proceeds to overtake him. In a split second ends with an Hannibal Lecter behind you trying to kill you. Avoid throwing the finger at the SOB: makes things worse.

Now, throw a little rain on the whole thing in the early hours, and carnage instantly happens.

I once checked my mobile phone trafic app to see WTH was happening. The motorway is a 45 km circle with the A10 highway connecting to the north and south. There were little icons of accidents / crashed cars (nearly a dozen of them) all around the circle, a bit like measles buttons popping everywhere.

(sigh)
 
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I don't see energy costs being the issue at all, as EV technology have reduced energy consumption by a factor of 3. Add lower costs from using non-fuels and you get 4x for double speed right there, just to hit the old cost of travel.

Also the logic of renewables and infrastructure-constrained economics means that capacity is built to handle peak loads while there is zero marginal cost for low demand times. A road/power system capable of handling thanksgiving would have massive surplus on a typical day and even more so on low demand times for fast travel. Renewables outputs power according to weather and not demand so zero marginal price power should be common for large part of the year. (of course, serious shortages can happen at peak demand)

The problem with drivers is going to be a huge social problem. Autonomy good enough for controlled highway travel is feasible even now if a controlled environment could be supplied. A high speed autonomous lane with marginal speed increase (says 25%) is probably what is remotely implementable in the near term, but it would help greatly with tighter control of road environment (make vehicle confusing features like questionable lane lines a government liability) and information system integration from road to vehicle and vehicle to vehicle communication standard (probably optical (read: lights: perhaps high frequency modulated)) could be helpful.

The notion of the elite-lane (even if toll road) means much political opposition is plausible. The political coalition building is a unsolved problem.... I suppose this is where a tireless connected genius could make a difference.
 
Archibald said:
Typical situation: stuck behind a Forrest Gump driving at snail pace. Proceeds to overtake him. In a split second ends with an Hannibal Lecter behind you trying to kill you. Avoid throwing the finger at the SOB: makes things worse.
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You forgot the part where your presence as you pass startles Gump awake, and now he's flooring the gas to what he thinks is trying to match his speed to 'traffic flow' but in reality turns into Gump racing you neck-and-neck white-knuckle balls-to-the-wall as hard as he ever possibly tried at anything in his entire life. Now you and Gump are both hurtling at 180kph and Mister '300Kph' Hyde still isn't happy that traffic exists.

I'm from Louisiana. This is exactly true here as well, and I also hear exact copies of this same story from places like Toronto and Montreal. These three places have the highest car insurance rates on the entire continent.
Archibald said:
Now, throw a little rain on the whole thing in the early hours, and carnage instantly happens.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, these Special Stupids actually go faster and turn their headlights off.
 
Oh yeah, these Special Stupids actually go faster and turn their BRAINS off.
Click to expand...

Fixed a typo.

I have another theory - that rain makes the Gumps even duller and the Lecters even more sociopathic. My girlfriend and a lot of others people I discussed that matter with are equally blasé. Driving in Bordeaux is total Hell. Even more since the city suffers from a severe bout of "Anne Hidalgo fever" and bus lanes have multiplied.
Except the Lecters lunatics use them to overtake. From the left.

But we shall stop there not to hijack that thread further...
 
Test drove a Volvo XC40 Recharge the other day, that thing is quick! The integrated Google was fantastic, no fluffing around with menus, just "hey Google ....." and its straight to what I was after. Oh by quick I mean as quick as my M-140i but feels even quicker! It, being a small SUV is also very practical while the AWD and low center of gravity (thanks to the batteries) means it is stable and handles well too.
 
Canada orders Chinese companies to divest stake in lithium mines (ft.com, registration or subscription may be required)
Ottawa has ordered three Chinese groups to divest their stakes in Canadian critical mineral companies after a defence and intelligence review concluded that the investments posed a threat to national security.

In a move that reflected a significant hardening of Canada’s stance towards China, the government ordered Sinomine (Hong Kong) Rare Metals Resources to exit its stake in Power Metals, a Canadian lithium miner.

Ottawa also instructed Chengze Lithium International to divest its stake in Lithium Chile and told Zangge Mining Investment (Chengdu) to unwind its investment in Ultra Lithium, another Canadian resource developer.

Industry minister François-Philippe Champagne said Canada welcomed foreign direct investment from companies that “share our interests and values” but would “act decisively when investments threaten our national security and our critical minerals supply chains”.

Roland Paris, a foreign policy expert at the University of Ottawa, said the decision followed an announcement that Canada would allow only state-owned entities to invest in its critical mineral companies on an “exceptional basis”, heralding a tougher approach on Chinese companies.

[snip]
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hardware.slashdot.org

Ford CEO: 40% Less Labor To Build Electric Vehicles - Slashdot

An anonymous reader quotes a report from CleanTechnica: Ford CEO Jim Farley made a blockbuster of a statement this week. According to the somewhat jovial and optimistic cousin of late comedic actor Chris Farley, producing electric vehicles requires about 40% less labor than producing the same...
hardware.slashdot.org

I am sceptical.
 
“When we look carefully at what goes on on the factory floor, it won’t be less workers,” Keith Cooley, former head of Michigan’s Labor Department, told CNBC. “There will be different people building the cars.“

Different people? Space Aliens? Wherever the various parts need to go will not require a better education. Workers will be shown correct assembly procedures as in the past.

www.cnbc.com

How electric vehicle manufacturing could shrink the Midwestern job market

Electric vehicles may require less manufacturing labor than conventional gasoline engine cars, and that could shrink the domestic parts supplier trade.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
 
edwest3 said:
Yes, there will be fewer and less complicated parts than for a car with a gasoline engine.
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Perhaps so, but the batteries still suck. For EV's to really be practical, the batteries need to shrink by a factor of five or so in weight, get cheaper by a factor of two or three and double the total energy stored. Since battery tech does not seem to be *anywhere* on a track to produce something like this, perhaps a series of battery development facilities can be built in places like Iowa and Kansas and North Dakota... out of the way, but with access to various levels of local workforce. Developing the sort of batteries that EV cars and trucks and airplanes need would be a job of decades, probably, so it could be good work. So for a generation or so, a good number of the jobs lost in manufacturing could be replaced with jobs in building new research and development facilities, running, maintaining and operating them. Have the facilities compete with each other to attain this or that milestone.
 
Grey Havoc said:
Over in the UK, the picture for EVs seems to be pretty bleak:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Electric car owners have been duped by big government

Gone are the lovely incentives. Now we are being coerced into going electric, and face huge taxes while doing so
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
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Why shouldn't drivers of EVs pay Vehicle Excise Duty? Do they use less of the road that I do as a petrol driver?

Regardless of CO2 band everyone pays a flat line £165 annually from year 2 of ownership, or £355 Years 2-6 on a car more than £40,000 list price. This I suspect is the main beef - that most EVs fall above the £40,000 bracket hence they feel hard done by. Would they feel equally hard done by if they brought the same SUV with a stonking V8 under the bonnet?

Once all new internal combustion cars are banned in 2030 the government will be in a sticky hole, of course they were going to remove the zero payment cap at some point. Instead the government could abolish VED and start black boxing everyone's cars and charging them by the mile but no doubt that would prove equally unpopular with all road users.
 
Black boxing every car would help to levy taxes on road use during rush hours, 'encouraging' drivers to drive at different hours. It has been proposed on numerous occasions in the Netherlands - traffic congestion is a serious problem here - but a majority of voters don't like it. In efforts to ease congestion, roads are being widened. This hasn't solved the problem, traffic jams have just become wider.

I am all for an EV-promoting tax regime. Air pollution is a killer in the urban environment, and CO2-emissions must be reduced. But we should consider that all vehicle use, including EVs, will have to be spread out over the day, or even outright restricted, if traffic congestion is to be countered. Because congestion damages the economy. In the future absence of fuel taxes, the only way to lessen congestion is road use taxation dependent on time and place. Which should also cover EVs.
 
Hood said:
Grey Havoc said:
Over in the UK, the picture for EVs seems to be pretty bleak:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Electric car owners have been duped by big government

Gone are the lovely incentives. Now we are being coerced into going electric, and face huge taxes while doing so
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
Click to expand...
Why shouldn't drivers of EVs pay Vehicle Excise Duty? Do they use less of the road that I do as a petrol driver?

Regardless of CO2 band everyone pays a flat line £165 annually from year 2 of ownership, or £355 Years 2-6 on a car more than £40,000 list price. This I suspect is the main beef - that most EVs fall above the £40,000 bracket hence they feel hard done by. Would they feel equally hard done by if they brought the same SUV with a stonking V8 under the bonnet?

Once all new internal combustion cars are banned in 2030 the government will be in a sticky hole, of course they were going to remove the zero payment cap at some point. Instead the government could abolish VED and start black boxing everyone's cars and charging them by the mile but no doubt that would prove equally unpopular with all road users.
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As always, I'm happy to pay for roads, if the money is spent on well, roads.

Trackers are truly hated by drivers, even though most can be tracked in the UK, by ANPR and their mobile phone signals.

Roads are already 'priced' by congestion, lots of companies now deliver at night, because its the only time they can access town centres, petrol stations etc.
 
With the benefit of bottle bottom glasses, it is easy to say we need to use the roads at times other than cnogestion periods but, folk going to work in fixed locations cannot do this. Most of the workforce in other words. Clever ideas which are not connected to the real world may sound good to some but need to be considering the real world. I know, that does not compute.
 
www.autoweek.com

How Much Should You Worry About EV Fires?

Fires involving electric cars often make the news, but let's take a look at how frequent they actually occur—and whether you should fret over their possibility.
www.autoweek.com www.autoweek.com
The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.
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Probably connected with the fuel tank in ICE-vehicles.
 
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
Yes, there will be fewer and less complicated parts than for a car with a gasoline engine.
Click to expand...
Perhaps so, but the batteries still suck. For EV's to really be practical, the batteries need to shrink by a factor of five or so in weight, get cheaper by a factor of two or three and double the total energy stored. Since battery tech does not seem to be *anywhere* on a track to produce something like this, perhaps a series of battery development facilities can be built in places like Iowa and Kansas and North Dakota... out of the way, but with access to various levels of local workforce. Developing the sort of batteries that EV cars and trucks and airplanes need would be a job of decades, probably, so it could be good work. So for a generation or so, a good number of the jobs lost in manufacturing could be replaced with jobs in building new research and development facilities, running, maintaining and operating them. Have the facilities compete with each other to attain this or that milestone.
Click to expand...

Where do you get all this? Ford and BMW will be testing solid state batteries by the end of this year.

www.motortrend.com

Might a BMW iX or Ford Lightning Get the First Solid-State Batteries?

High-silicon anodes and a sulfide-based solid electrolyte are Solid Power’s keys to longer-range, lower-cost and safer electric vehicles.
www.motortrend.com www.motortrend.com


"Solid-state battery developer Solid Power announced Monday that it has finished installing a pilot production line at its factory in Louisville, Colorado, and is on target to begin supplying battery cells to partners Ford and BMW by the end of 2022."

And they are ready to go into full production by the first quarter of 2023.

 
edwest3 said:
Orionblamblam said:
edwest3 said:
Yes, there will be fewer and less complicated parts than for a car with a gasoline engine.
Click to expand...
Perhaps so, but the batteries still suck. For EV's to really be practical, the batteries need to shrink by a factor of five or so in weight, get cheaper by a factor of two or three and double the total energy stored. ...
Click to expand...

Where do you get all this? Ford and BMW will be testing solid state batteries by the end of this year.

www.motortrend.com

Might a BMW iX or Ford Lightning Get the First Solid-State Batteries?

High-silicon anodes and a sulfide-based solid electrolyte are Solid Power’s keys to longer-range, lower-cost and safer electric vehicles.
www.motortrend.com www.motortrend.com
Click to expand...
The story does not give the kWhr/kg of these new batteries. Gasoline is something like 13 kWhr/kg. To compete, batteries should be in that ballpark. Lithium ion batteries are in the region of 0.25 kwhr/kg, so an order of magnitude of improvement would still have them substantially heavier than gas.
 
Do some research, please.

www.greencarcongress.com

FEV study highlights aluminum mass reduction dynamics in battery-electric vehicles

A study commissioned by the Aluminum Association and conducted by FEV North America, concludes that aluminum offers significant cost savings to automakers as net-zero priorities drive vehicle development, particularly in high volume programs. The study includes an analysis of three vehicle...
www.greencarcongress.com
 
edwest3 said:
Do some research, please.

www.greencarcongress.com

FEV study highlights aluminum mass reduction dynamics in battery-electric vehicles

A study commissioned by the Aluminum Association and conducted by FEV North America, concludes that aluminum offers significant cost savings to automakers as net-zero priorities drive vehicle development, particularly in high volume programs. The study includes an analysis of three vehicle...
www.greencarcongress.com
Click to expand...

You tell me to do research and helpfully post a link that says nothing about the question at hand. "Just Google it" long ago became a trope of laziness. If you believe my understanding of the energy density of batteries is off by more than an order of magnitude, you could make your case by posting one single sourced number. It would take you a lot less time than repeatedly posting vagueness.
 

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