Drones and how to kill them?

sferrin said:
Are you serious? That sounds comical. Dragging a line all over the battlefield.
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A quick search brings up copious amounts of pictures and videos of these in use. I suppose it might all be propaganda/disinfo, but it looks to me like these are a thing since at least march last year.
 
hagaricus said:
A quick search brings up copious amounts of pictures and videos of these in use. I suppose it might all be propaganda/disinfo, but it looks to me like these are a thing since at least march last year.
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armyrecognition.com

Russian fiber-optic controlled FPV is not so Russian but Chinese

Russian fiber-optic controlled FPV is not so Russian but Chinese
armyrecognition.com armyrecognition.com


Interesting. I would have thought it would limit them more than it was worth.
 
A humorous diversion ;) :

beta-t-yixugnus_lkkkdwfbyrhz-axxgixchq5yjm0xbqrjl8-jpg.815656
 
sferrin said:
armyrecognition.com

Russian fiber-optic controlled FPV is not so Russian but Chinese

Russian fiber-optic controlled FPV is not so Russian but Chinese
armyrecognition.com armyrecognition.com


Interesting. I would have thought it would limit them more than it was worth.
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Like a lot of things its a trade off.
You might have to lug around a spool of fiber optic but you dont have to worry about jamming or areas with poor wireless coverage or signal dropout or having to use repeaters,plus one big advantage is that the image quality is now much improved hd,which allows you to spot targets that once might`ve eluded detection and improves the quality of images from the drones [rather crappy] night vision cameras.
Whats impressive is just how quickly this sort of battlefield bottom up development happens.
The first pics of rather crude looking attempts by the russians to use fiber optic tethers was only back in early march last year,so all of this development has happened in only a little over 10 months!.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1766337173773537683
 
sferrin said:
go check out almost any video using drones in Ukraine. Look at all the trees and structures the line could snag on. Doesn't seem practical.
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So long as the fiber optic bobbin continuously spools out new line it doesnt matter if it gets snagged,thats only going to be a problem when you run out of line,but its game over for the drone then anyway.
 
Јust like a Malutka at-3 with the difference that it had an optical cable and camera. I had a similar concept for an unmanned aircraft in 2011, but with the difference that a cable with four wires was used, and much larger aircraft model more like UAV , but with a range of 4-5 km but with a bomb load of up to 150-200 kg, but this was only a concept if I find the pictures I will post them
 
NMaude said:
The Ukrainians will be paying close attention to this development as the APKWS II would be perfect for shooting down Shaheed drones.
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I agree. The hydra-70 rocket stockpile is in the millions. Only the APKWS II upgrade kit from BAE is the limiting factor. They are producing about 25k per year, or a bit less, right now. If they had an order for a million upgrade kits, they could get that cost down significantly.
 
joshjosh said:
If they had an order for a million upgrade kits, they could get that cost down significantly.
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IIRC the current cost of the APKWS guidance kit is $US15,000 so mass-production should dramatically reduce its cost, also I think that BAe is looking at a version with an inexpensive IIR seeker.
 
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NMaude said:
The Ukrainians will be paying close attention to this development as the APKWS II would be perfect for shooting down Shaheed drones.
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The Vampire is in operational use in Ukraine since 2023, and upon googling it I also found a report from a few days ago of a Kh-59 missile shot down by such system.
ims-isr-vampire-product-hero.jpg

johnpjones1775 said:
Guns

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news.usni.org

Imho lasers as a wide spread and effective defensive capability is still decades away, so for the foreseeable future, small rapid fire guns and large guns will be the most cost efficient methods of hard killing drones.
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Why "decades"?
Seems to me that right now the obstacle isn't technological but rather users being increasingly greedy with the power they demand, and platforms they want it on.
A few days ago I read on Janes a report about the Iron Beam and Lite Beam. There a Rafael representative said the Iron Beam can be mounted on an 8x8 vehicle and will achieve full operational capability with the IAF by the end of 2025. Which means they delivered at least a system last year. Not sure if in reference to armored combat vehicles like the Eitan or some truck like the HEMTT the IDF operates. But it is a significant step forward from the double semi-trailer setup presented a decade ago.
 
Big_Zukini said:
The Vampire is in operational use in Ukraine since 2023, and upon googling it I also found a report from a few days ago of a Kh-59 missile shot down by such system.
ims-isr-vampire-product-hero.jpg


Why "decades"?
Seems to me that right now the obstacle isn't technological but rather users being increasingly greedy with the power they demand, and platforms they want it on.
A few days ago I read on Janes a report about the Iron Beam and Lite Beam. There a Rafael representative said the Iron Beam can be mounted on an 8x8 vehicle and will achieve full operational capability with the IAF by the end of 2025. Which means they delivered at least a system last year. Not sure if in reference to armored combat vehicles like the Eitan or some truck like the HEMTT the IDF operates. But it is a significant step forward from the double semi-trailer setup presented a decade ago.
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It's definitely not decades away...its a couple of years at most for widespread deployment.
 
timmymagic said:
It's definitely not decades away...its a couple of years at most for widespread deployment.
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I agree. And I think those quickly discouraged by the short range of laser systems and long distances found in Europe and other theaters, have yet to consider the aerial option.
 
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Forest Green said:
www.defensenews.com

Netherlands to buy Rheinmetall anti-drone cannons in $1.35 billion buy

The ability to protect deployed troops against drones is considered a prerequisite for land combat operations in the future.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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The Dutch are buying 22 (with an option for more) tracked Skyranger 30 systems. These will have a 30 mm cannon with programmable ammunition, and four stinger missiles.

Even though it doesn't approach the amount of Cheetah's (Dutch Gepard) we had, it's a good start, and the programmable ammo will make it a potent anti-drone weapon.

The Skyranger turret will be mounted on a ACSV G5 tracked vehicle. The NOMADS system we've already purchased use the same base vehicle.

Flugabwehrsystem-Skyranger-30-auf-ACSV-G5_Bild_Defensie-1068x709.jpg.webp
 
Big_Zukini said:
The Vampire is in operational use in Ukraine since 2023, and upon googling it I also found a report from a few days ago of a Kh-59 missile shot down by such system.
ims-isr-vampire-product-hero.jpg


Why "decades"?
Seems to me that right now the obstacle isn't technological but rather users being increasingly greedy with the power they demand, and platforms they want it on.
A few days ago I read on Janes a report about the Iron Beam and Lite Beam. There a Rafael representative said the Iron Beam can be mounted on an 8x8 vehicle and will achieve full operational capability with the IAF by the end of 2025. Which means they delivered at least a system last year. Not sure if in reference to armored combat vehicles like the Eitan or some truck like the HEMTT the IDF operates. But it is a significant step forward from the double semi-trailer setup presented a decade ago.
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I’m not much of a tech guy, so I can’t give a solid answer, but it’s a vibe a feeling I can’t explain too well.

Best explanation I can give is when the Houthis first launched an attack in 2016 I believe the ponce had one of the first laser systems onboard. That was nearly a decade ago, and no burke has been permanently fitted with a laser.

If the requirements for power generation keep climbing it probably means they actually need more power. Last I checked it still took several seconds of concentrated laser focus in more or less ideal atmospheric conditions to defeat a commercial drone. Better than nothing, but I wouldn’t call that militarily mature.
 
timmymagic said:
It's definitely not decades away...it’s a couple of years at most for widespread deployment.
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Probably not.
Ponce deployed with a laser in 2016. Pretty sure it’s been removed since then, and I don’t believe any other ships have deployed with a laser on board. Back then people were saying the same thing, it will be just a couple of years til they’re wide spread.

I would expect 20ish years from now, but no sooner than 10.

Edit
Preble appears to have a laser but it’s a dazzler not a destructive laser
 
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johnpjones1775 said:
Probably not.
Ponce deployed with a laser in 2016. Pretty sure it’s been removed since then, and I don’t believe any other ships have deployed with a laser on board. Back then people were saying the same thing, it will be just a couple of years til they’re wide spread.

I would expect 20ish years from now, but no sooner than 10.

Edit
Preble appears to have a laser but it’s a dazzler not a destructive laser
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What are the odds....

Helios is a 60kw laser....thats very much in the destructive category...it has dazzler functionality as well at lower power settings...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886259012632535520
View: https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1886259012632535520
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Either way, 2 ships in 10 or so years, isn’t telling me that this technology being viable is just around the corner.
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10 years ago this picture would have probably been impossible, unless we talked about some anemic 10kW laser.
The ability to put 50kW on a Stryker means we can get higher results for point defense.
The introduction of such systems to service is now less of a technological issue than one of familiarization and training, funding, and production timelines.

A Rafael representative said the Iron Beam (100kW class) is in initial service with the IAF, and Janes added that it's currently a 50-70kW system.
DE-MSHORAD-scaled-e1691601674279-1536x864.jpg


breakingdefense.com

EXCLUSIVE: Strykers with 50-kilowatt lasers in CENTCOM for experiment, Army No. 2 says - Breaking Defense

“Is it 100 percent ready? Is it going to work perfectly? Probably not but we're going to learn from it,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. James Mingus told Breaking Defense.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
Big_Zukini said:
10 years ago this picture would have probably been impossible, unless we talked about some anemic 10kW laser.
The ability to put 50kW on a Stryker means we can get higher results for point defense.
The introduction of such systems to service is now less of a technological issue than one of familiarization and training, funding, and production timelines.

A Rafael representative said the Iron Beam (100kW class) is in initial service with the IAF, and Janes added that it's currently a 50-70kW system.
DE-MSHORAD-scaled-e1691601674279-1536x864.jpg


breakingdefense.com

EXCLUSIVE: Strykers with 50-kilowatt lasers in CENTCOM for experiment, Army No. 2 says - Breaking Defense

“Is it 100 percent ready? Is it going to work perfectly? Probably not but we're going to learn from it,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. James Mingus told Breaking Defense.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
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What can happen and what does happen are two completely different things.

It’s also still pretty questionable about effective lasers will be at any reasonable range in less than ideal atmospheric conditions.
Unlike the US ground forces the navy has a lot more options, particularly effective options for dealing with drones. The ground forces need whatever they can get right now.
A test stryker doesn’t mean much to me.
 
Against aluminum Helios’ range is like 2.5 miles…that’s not particularly good for the navy.
That’s pretty good for the army and marines though
 
johnpjones1775 said:
What can happen and what does happen are two completely different things.

It’s also still pretty questionable about effective lasers will be at any reasonable range in less than ideal atmospheric conditions.
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Last time the IDF revealed a big update on laser weapons, they also explained they want a laser on an airborne platform.
Some rudimentary version was tested in 2021:

 
johnpjones1775 said:
Want is fine, we’ve wanted an airborne laser for like 20 years now.
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Understand that lasers are just part of an array of C-UAS weapons. They're not meant to replace anything, but add onto, in parallel with other new systems. From a cost-efficiency standpoint, lasers are not in a great spot to fulfill every niche. There are indications that only recently they've become more viable as C-RAM, and that's where we're currently going.

So oddly there's often less expressed desire than ability to deliver.
 

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