Drones and how to kill them?

Bit more on Gravehawk from Written Questions in the Commons:


Question

Luke Akehurst, Labour, North Durham

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to his speech delivered at the ADS Annual Dinner on 28 January 2025, what progress he has made on the Gravehawk system.

Answered on 4 February 2025

Maria Eagle, Labour, Liverpool Garston

The Gravehawk system is a rapidly developed bespoke air defence system, jointly funded by the UK and Denmark. This innovative system, which is able to retrofit air-air missiles for ground-based air defence, can use Ukrainian missiles already in their armed forces’ possession. With Ukraine under constant Russian bombardment, the Gravehawk system will boost Ukraine’s air defences, allowing them to defend their cities, troops and critical infrastructure. Two prototypes of the air defence capability system were tested in Ukraine in September 2024, and a further 15 will follow this year.

(An earlier statement states it's being built by BAE Systems in Yorkshire)

Akehurst's immediately preceding question is equally interesting.

Question

Luke Akehurst, Labour, North Durham

Commons

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to his speech delivered at the ADS Annual Dinner on 28 January 2025, what progress he has made on the Snapper system.

Answered on 4 February 2025

Maria Eagle, Labour, Liverpool Garston

The Snapper system is a new uncrewed maritime system, which has been rapidly developed specifically to support Ukraine. The system is currently undergoing final testing and further details will be set out in due course.
 
BAE systems in Yorkshire??

There are 3 BAE facilties in Yorkshire.....

The new artillery facility in Sheffield that isn't operational...
The Brough factory, where Hawk was built...hardly anything there now...
BAE Systems Digital Intelligence on the outskirts of Leeds...

Can only be Brough...they still have a few sheds there...not their usual line of work though...
 
Overall, are we primarily discussing countering quadcopters/fpv drones, or larger & much more sophisticated ones like The Bayraktar TB-2, MQ-9 Reaper, & RQ-170/180, & from what perspective - air defense, infantry, or armored vehicles/tanks? Obviously, each drone & scenario requires a different approach, but there are some fundamentals when it comes to detection, such as thermal imaging & the elint/rf analysis parts of, say, those ew systems that Russia has installed on their tanks, & there are a couple of other options that could help, too.

Somewhat related - does anyone know if North Korea's version of South Korea's S&T Daewoo K-11 actually works?

1738920006155.png

Assuming that the answer is yes, they're probably too expensive to provide one to every soldier, but why not interface it with said drone detection equipment & install it in place of the 12.7 mm gun from the remote weapon station on The T-90M, for example?

1738920385165.png

At least it would be much cheaper than trying to outfit the same tanks with Arena-M, for example, & plenty of original & upgraded Soviet equipment is actually ideal for countering these things, albeit not in the way that most would probably expect, & it's amazing that Russia doesn't see it.

Comrades - to the archives!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzEwstAUS58


Hilarious video music aside, this device is probably the founding father of all of these OICW-like systems that only appeared 70-80 years later.
 
Joint Soviet Fighter said:
Assuming that the answer is yes, they're probably too expensive to provide one to every soldier, but why not interface it with said drone detection equipment & install it in place of the 12.7 mm gun from the remote weapon station on The T-90M, for example?

1738920385165.png


At least it would be much cheaper than trying to outfit the same tanks with Arena-M, for example, & plenty of original & upgraded Soviet equipment is actually ideal for countering these things, albeit not in the way that most would probably expect, & it's amazing that Russia doesn't see it.

Comrades - to the archives!
Click to expand...

To be effective it would need airburst shells....and one thing is clear from the Ukraine war is that neither Russia or North Korea have the ability to produce large volumes of proximity fuzes for artillery shells....let alone for smaller calibres.
 
timmymagic said:
To be effective it would need airburst shells....and one thing is clear from the Ukraine war is that neither Russia or North Korea have the ability to produce large volumes of proximity fuzes for artillery shells....let alone for smaller calibres.
Click to expand...
It's a good thing that these don't require proximity fuzes, then, as they're timed grenades/shells.

Assuming that The North Korean OICW doesn't work, however, there are at least two other options for tanks such as The T-90M - either swap out the 12.7 mm gun for one of 7.62 mm, as the smaller bullets are simply much more effective against quadcopters than their 12.7, 20, 30, & 35 mm counterparts, or interface the drone detection equipment with a number of those L-2 Luna infrared spotlights that have been staples of Soviet armor since the late 1950s & can illuminate an opposing tank at 800 meters with the idea being that, instead of jamming the command link between the drone & its operator which has now been countered by opting for fiber optic cables, the same "signal loss"/"black screen of death" can probably be achieved simply by drowning/overloading the drone's camera, thereby rendering it completely useless.
 
timmymagic said:
BAE systems in Yorkshire??

There are 3 BAE facilties in Yorkshire.....

The new artillery facility in Sheffield that isn't operational...
The Brough factory, where Hawk was built...hardly anything there now...
BAE Systems Digital Intelligence on the outskirts of Leeds...

Can only be Brough...they still have a few sheds there...not their usual line of work though...
Click to expand...
I wouldn't entirely rule out Digital Intelligence, they have Battlefield Integration as one of their core areas, and it doesn't take a huge space to do low volume work - Rochester had a plan to build Cobra Venom in goods inwards back in the GEC Marconi days!
 
www.twz.com

Chinese Tank's Active Protection System Seen Intercepting Drone-Fired Rocket Propelled Grenade

Testing of the GL-6 highlights the potential value of hard-kill active protection systems for defending tanks against drone attacks.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

breakingdefense.com

Israel completes next round of counter drone testing with guns, interceptors - Breaking Defense

The Feb. 5 trials took place in southern Israel’s Negev desert, where there is ample space for downing drones without any civilians around.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
DWG said:
I wouldn't entirely rule out Digital Intelligence, they have Battlefield Integration as one of their core areas, and it doesn't take a huge space to do low volume work - Rochester had a plan to build Cobra Venom in goods inwards back in the GEC Marconi days!
Click to expand...

To be fair I don't think Digitial Intelligence even have a loading bay...they're on an office park. Mind you they could always rent a unit nearby...
 
Model of Rafael's Iron Beam M 250, a 50kW class laser, as presented in IAV2025. Another variant, Iron Beam 450, is 100kW. The 'M' suffix denotes Mobile version. Said to be made for the brigade level.
Note the presence of radars but lack of optics for search tasks.

Numerical suffix indicates lens diameter.

Source:
www.edrmagazine.eu

IAV 2025 - Protecting armoured vehicles from drones and FPVs - EDR Magazine

With threats from the third dimensions directed against armoured vehicles constantly increasing, creating a bubble capable to neutralise such incoming
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu

IAV25-C-UAS_06.jpg
 
I still think the use of fiber optics cables connection for drone is an inefficient use of a somewhat expensive resource. It would be much better used for loitering munitions that are much more likely to get a kill if they hit the target. An updated version of EFOGM instead of stringing it to some Wish.com drone. The flight profile is also less likely to get the cable caught on everything.

The Skyranger systems seem to be among the better immediately available counters you can put on a self-propelled chassis. For swatting drones, I wonder what is the better munition in 30mm or 35mm calibers? AHEAD-type thrown up in the projected flight path of the drone to create a wall of lead, or airburst ammo using more conventional HE fragmentation shells?
 
FO guidance costs few hundred dollars per FPV kamikaze quadcopter. It's cheap, solves ECM and LOS issues and permits ambush tactics (drone waiting on the ground next to a route for a target).

The low force density makes the FO rather safe from sabotage.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
I still think the use of fiber optics cables connection for drone is an inefficient use of a somewhat expensive resource. It would be much better used for loitering munitions that are much more likely to get a kill if they hit the target. An updated version of EFOGM instead of stringing it to some Wish.com drone. The flight profile is also less likely to get the cable caught on everything.

The Skyranger systems seem to be among the better immediately available counters you can put on a self-propelled chassis. For swatting drones, I wonder what is the better munition in 30mm or 35mm calibers? AHEAD-type thrown up in the projected flight path of the drone to create a wall of lead, or airburst ammo using more conventional HE fragmentation shells?
Click to expand...
To add to what's been explained above, the way the drone warfare in Ukraine is conducted right now is driven more by lack of access to a modern and established MIC, rather than limitation-free adaptation of sword to shield.

Ideally 95% of FPV drones currently employed would be replaced by a mix of loitering munitions, missiles, multiple classes of drones, manned aircraft, guided artillery, satellites etc etc.
Or at the very least some proper secure communication modules on every drone. But none of that is available in the necessary capacity.
 
GTX said:
Maybe not kill, but related never-the-less:

www.twz.com

Russians Erect Mesh Net ‘Tunnel’ Over A Mile Long To Counter Ukrainian FPV Drones

Enclosing an entire roadway in mesh netting is the latest in an ongoing effort to protect against these highly maneuverable weapons.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
Click to expand...
Not sure the Russians have thought this one through. What happens when the Ukrainians take out a couple of the legs holding the mesh up, drop the netting over the front of a convoy and whistle up an artillery strike while it's trying to disentangle itself.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
I still think the use of fiber optics cables connection for drone is an inefficient use of a somewhat expensive resource. It would be much better used for loitering munitions that are much more likely to get a kill if they hit the target. An updated version of EFOGM instead of stringing it to some Wish.com drone. The flight profile is also less likely to get the cable caught on everything.
Click to expand...
The problem with fibre optics for a loitering drone is you need loiter speed x loiter duration length of cable, and you end up with the dispensed length strung across the ground, potentially subject to being snapped by a whole range of causes.
 
Here are several interesting videos I've watched recently concerning how to defeat drone jamming without using fibre-optic cabling:


Copyright matters! Contact shawn.charland@skyindustries.com
Click to expand...
Drones can be made resistant to jamming by using a fiber-optic cable between the operator and the drone.
Click to expand...
Part I of III: this video describes an alternate method to achieve the same or similar resistance to jamming, without using a fiber-optic cable.
Click to expand...


Copyright matters! Contact shawn.charland@skyindustries.com
Click to expand...
Drones can be made resistant to jamming by using a fiber-optic cable between the operator and the drone.
Click to expand...
This video is part II of III describing an alternate method to achieve the same or similar resistance to jamming, without using a fiber-optic cable.
Click to expand...


Copyright matters! Contact shawn.charland@skyindustries.com
Click to expand...
Drones can be made resistant to jamming by using a fiber-optic cable between the operator and the drone.
Click to expand...
This video is part III of III describing an alternate method to achieve the same or similar resistance to jamming, without using a fiber-optic cable.
Click to expand...
Specifically this video presents a ROM cost comparison of the transceiver device and a jammer able to counter the transceiver.
Click to expand...
 
Colonial-Marine said:
I still think the use of fiber optics cables connection for drone is an inefficient use of a somewhat expensive resource. It would be much better used for loitering munitions that are much more likely to get a kill if they hit the target. An updated version of EFOGM instead of stringing it to some Wish.com drone. The flight profile is also less likely to get the cable caught on everything.

The Skyranger systems seem to be among the better immediately available counters you can put on a self-propelled chassis. For swatting drones, I wonder what is the better munition in 30mm or 35mm calibers? AHEAD-type thrown up in the projected flight path of the drone to create a wall of lead, or airburst ammo using more conventional HE fragmentation shells?
Click to expand...
If we're talking about quadcopters, then the answer is neither, as both rounds are simply too large to be able to deal with such small targets. Think of something like The Soviet truck with four 7.62 mm Maxim machine guns, as the bullets are small enough for quadcopters, the accuracy of the gun means that you won't have to use many rounds to take down, say, a Mavic, & the machine gun is water-cooled & never gets tired.

*Trump voice* A great deal!

On a more serious note, Australia has used the same caliber on this system that has been sent to Ukraine -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrJcAOa4pes


Personally, I'm much more partial to the use of 57 mm shells, as on Russia's 2S38...that is still not in service.

Sigh.
 
This interview with the CEO of Epirus has the clearest explanation I've seen of how HPM systems are meant to defeat drones - by coupling in voltage spikes via the wiring or servos for the control surfaces.

What he doesn't really say in detail, other than noting that you would need a ring of systems - 5 to 6 - around whatever you're defending, is that there's no possibility of IFF (other than turning it off), it will do this to whatever's in the beam, friend or foe.

And I think that's where this falls down when he talks of scaling it down to individual tactical vehicles, because if you zap the electronics of your accompanying infantry or vehicles I don't see them being happy.

breakingdefense.com

High-power microwave ‘force field’ knocks drone swarms from sky - Breaking Defense

Working like an EMP weapon, microwaves change the counter-UAS mission from one-to-one to one-to-many.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
I was wondering if this could/would work -

unicornriot.ninja

Hacking Drones With Ultrasonic Pulses at DEFCON - UNICORN RIOT

Las Vegas, NV – Unicorn Riot journalists are currently reporting from DEFCON 25 in Las Vegas, where hackers of all flavors come together to present the most cutting edge in a long list of hacking skills. Over the four day convention, DEFCON will host speakers from around the world and present...
unicornriot.ninja unicornriot.ninja

t.co

Fine-tuned acoustic waves can knock drones out of the sky

archived 6 Feb 2025 14:54:27 UTC
t.co t.co
 
DWG said:
This interview with the CEO of Epirus has the clearest explanation I've seen of how HPM systems are meant to defeat drones - by coupling in voltage spikes via the wiring or servos for the control surfaces.

What he doesn't really say in detail, other than noting that you would need a ring of systems - 5 to 6 - around whatever you're defending, is that there's no possibility of IFF (other than turning it off), it will do this to whatever's in the beam, friend or foe.

And I think that's where this falls down when he talks of scaling it down to individual tactical vehicles, because if you zap the electronics of your accompanying infantry or vehicles I don't see them being happy.
Click to expand...
No different from firing a cannon in their direction.



MihoshiK said:
Thinking this over... Would the M10 Booker chassis be able to carry a 35 mm skyranger turret?
Click to expand...
I believe so. IIRC it's got the same diameter turret ring as an Abrams.
 
Scott Kenny said:
No different from firing a cannon in their direction.
Click to expand...
But a cannon doesn't engage every target in a 60+ degree arc. It's like using claymores for an APWS. It might work, but everyone around you is likely to be annoyed.
 
DWG said:
But a cannon doesn't engage every target in a 60+ degree arc. It's like using claymores for an APWS. It might work, but everyone around you is likely to be annoyed.
Click to expand...
I was assuming that the HPMW were closer to masers than a claymore. Maybe a 2x2deg beam.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I was assuming that the HPMW were closer to masers than a claymore. Maybe a 2x2deg beam.
Click to expand...
"Leonidas spins on a gimbal and generates a persistent field of electromagnetic energy in the sky. As you push it into the airspace, incoming drones come into that energy field and begin to get confused. " That plus the way he keeps harping on in the interview about one-to-many effects (one defensive system engaging multiple targets at once) lead me to think it's a wide-area effect, not a targeted beam.*

Their website does say they can have software defined safe zones, but equally shows multiple drones being engaged simultaneously, and Leonidas doesn't seem to have a targeting sensor that I can see.

* Which might not be true of all of their systems, if they can hang a variant under a quad-copter then I'd suspect that's probably closer to a beam, though potentially bore-sighted rather than steerable.
 

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