Drones and how to kill them?

Scott Kenny said:
Rimfire ammunition isn't reliable enough. At least not if you're using the round being fired to power the weapon. It'd be acceptable for a chain gun type weapon.

Honestly, fitting it with a P90 5.7x28mm and 50rd magazines would probably be best.
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The 5.7 and 22lr are such small bullet weights I have a hard time seeing them being effective at more than 10M being fired from a moving full sized aircraft. Wind and such is going to play havoc on those small bullets trajectories.

If you made a dedicated small anti drone drone fitted with a P90 or similar sure I can see a use case then.
 
Sineva said:
Yeah,its a weird one isnt it?
With all of the potential anti usv weapons they`ve got but they`re using [I`m assuming] a guy with a machine gun.:rolleyes:
Heres a Ka-29 with rockets and atgms
Kamov_Ka-29TB%2C_Ukraine_-_Navy_JP7205123.jpg
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I think a Ka-29 was defending against naval drones near Crimea when Russian air defence made another unfortunate mistake.

www.twz.com

Russian Navy Ka-29 Assault Helicopter Downed Amid Massive Ukrainian Drone Attack

The helicopter was shot down as Ukraine sent scores of drones to strike Crimea and Russia's Krasnodar region on targets ranging from oil facilities to an airfield.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

One influential Russian source claims the Helix was taken out by friendly fire, during a search for Ukrainian uncrewed surface vessels (USVs). Another said it came during a massive aerial and USV attack that killed nearly 30 Russian troops in occupied Crimea and Krasnodar.
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“In Anapa, our own air defense shot down our own helicopter,” the Thirteenth Telegram channel, run by Russian soldier and milblogger Egor Guzenko, wrote.
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During its sweep for Ukrainian drone boats in the Black Sea, “one of our [Pantsir air defense systems] hit the helicopter,” the Thirteenth wrote, adding that four Russian troops were killed in the incident.
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Preliminary information indicated it was “due to a malfunction of the ‘friend or foe’ system,” he suggested. “I will not voice any versions, let counterintelligence and the investigation sort it out. Eternal memory to our soldiers.”
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Shoes31 said:
The 5.7 and 22lr are such small bullet weights I have a hard time seeing them being effective at more than 10M being fired from a moving full sized aircraft. Wind and such is going to play havoc on those small bullets trajectories.

If you made a dedicated small anti drone drone fitted with a P90 or similar sure I can see a use case then.
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I'm not expecting more than ~25m range out of the 5.7 version if moving relatively slowly.

And yes, more or less a big FPV racing drone with a pair of P90s on it is what I was picturing.
 
Sineva said:
Why am I not surprised?:rolleyes:
You would`ve thought by now that they`d have had their sh!t together.
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They're using USVs and UAVs simulataneously, and the UAVs flys at a similar speed to the helicopters, so when they get sent out to intercept the USVs, they risk being shot down.


Other interesting counter-drone stuff:

www.twz.com

What Is This Mystery Row Of Spheres In A Ukrainian Field?

Help us solve the mystery of this curious array that could be a military system or something else entirely, like an agricultural apparatus.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

breakingdefense.com

Air Force mobility fleet seeks on-board defenses against small drones - Breaking Defense

Air Mobility Command documents say they're interested counter-drone systems, including platforms that can operate near friendly aircraft, so as not to hypothetically accidentally jam or spoof a nearby vice president's plane.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
 
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GTX said:
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These C-sUAS systems will combine Rheinmetall's command and control system, Skymaster, and high-power guns with Lattice and open, modular and scalable hardware components including Anduril’s Sentry Tower, Wisp sensors and Anvil, its autonomous interceptor. By combining the unique capabilities of both companies, an unmatched layered solution for C-sUAS will be offered. Overall, the MoU aims to bring together the complementary skills of these two leading companies.
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www.asdnews.com

Rheinmetall and Anduril Join Forces to Develop the Most Soph

The Düsseldorf-based technology group Rheinmetall and the US company Anduril Industries signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) during Eurosatory in Paris, o
www.asdnews.com www.asdnews.com

Rheinmetall

Rheinmetall and Anduril join forces at Eurosatory to develop innovative drone defense systems for European markets.
www.rheinmetall.com www.rheinmetall.com
 
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Forest Green said:
They're using USVs and UAVs simulataneously, and the UAVs flys at a similar speed to the helicopters, so when they get sent out to intercept the USVs, they risk being shot down.


Other interesting counter-drone stuff:

www.twz.com

What Is This Mystery Row Of Spheres In A Ukrainian Field?

Help us solve the mystery of this curious array that could be a military system or something else entirely, like an agricultural apparatus.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

breakingdefense.com

Air Force mobility fleet seeks on-board defenses against small drones - Breaking Defense

Air Mobility Command documents say they're interested counter-drone systems, including platforms that can operate near friendly aircraft, so as not to hypothetically accidentally jam or spoof a nearby vice president's plane.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
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i would say that those are hydraulic accumulator for an agricultural spray system. .
 
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www.defensenews.com

US Central Command to demo integrated counter drone sensors this fall

CENTCOM will stage a U.S.-based exercise in October focused on spotting UAS threats followed by a second demo in theater early next year.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

www.twz.com

Built-In Counter-Drone Defenses Sought For Air Force Transports, Tankers

The USAF's Air Mobility Command says adding new drone defenses to its aircraft themselves is critical for future combat and routine operations.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

www.twz.com

Russia Jumps Into Purpose-Built Drone-Hunting Drone Weapons Space

The kamikaze drone is billed as the latest Russian effort to try and counter Ukrainian uncrewed aerial vehicles on the battlefield. The kamikaze drone is billed as the latest Russian effort to try and counter Ukrainian uncrewed aerial vehicles on the battlefield.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1809197400239591495
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1809197400239591495

https://twitter.com/x/status/1809305043033579984
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1809305043033579984
 
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Orionblamblam said:
It seems expensive conventional SAMs might not be the right approach to dealing with drones. As drones become much smaller and *vastly* more numerous, attempting to take the out with missiles will become increasingly idiotic.
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It's why I think we're going to see dedicated "fighter quadcopters" or similar. In WW1, the plane started out as an artillery observer and intel platform, then the artillery observers started shooting at each other, then they started making dedicated fighters.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It's why I think we're going to see dedicated "fighter quadcopters" or similar.
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If so, only briefly. Soon enough there will be *swarms* of slaughterbots. You could easily deploy 10,000 of them from a van or an aircraft, each just smart enough to attack a single human. You won't defeat those with thrilling aerial dogfights by defensive slaughterbots, unless defensive drones are deployed in superior numbers. it might become necessary for each solider on a battlefield, and then every civilian *near* a conflict, to carry a backpack loaded with def-drones that launch on a split second notice and hover about you at a range of a few yards.

Advanced versions of quadcopters like this might carry a gram of Semtex, easily enough to perforate your noggin.

Screenshot 2024-07-12 at 20-12-28 Amazon.com Sky Viper Dash Nano Drone Everything Else.png


Twenty bucks just isn't that much for a reasonably reliable anti-individual weapon.
 
Orionblamblam said:
If so, only briefly. Soon enough there will be *swarms* of slaughterbots. You could easily deploy 10,000 of them from a van or an aircraft, each just smart enough to attack a single human. You won't defeat those with thrilling aerial dogfights by defensive slaughterbots, unless defensive drones are deployed in superior numbers. it might become necessary for each solider on a battlefield....
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Range will be the reason why defensive swarms can work.

If the launch platform is like, 5km from each other defense may be impossible, thus MAD is the likely result. However the natural response is to increase the range of the drones so you destroy the opponent launch platform first. At 30km the drones are significantly bigger and expensive so all defenses becomes more viable.

There will be a technological-environmental determined equilibrium in vehicle ranges, where offense and defense is in equilibrium: in which increasing the range means inability to cost effective penetrate defenses, while decreasing range means enemy offense can penetrate your own defenses before you can attack.

As for soldiers, they have no reason to be anywhere outside of tunnels when drone and other robotic warfare is developed, and they'd be removed if tunnel navigating robots are developed.
 
shin_getter said:
If the launch platform is like, 5km from each other defense may be impossible, thus MAD is the likely result. However the natural response is to increase the range of the drones so you destroy the opponent launch platform first.
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Launch platforms can be *anything,* including a box on a donkey. Buried emplacements like mines, waiting for the right moment to spring out. Dropped from 80,000 feet by balloons or growed-up sailplanes. Packages delivered like Uber Eats.

shin_getter said:
As for soldiers, they have no reason to be anywhere outside of tunnels when drone and other robotic warfare is developed, and they'd be removed if tunnel navigating robots are developed.
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It'll be a while before robots can do the job of occupying enemy territory that soldiers can.
 
shin_getter said:
Range will be the reason why defensive swarms can work.

If the launch platform is like, 5km from each other defense may be impossible, thus MAD is the likely result. However the natural response is to increase the range of the drones so you destroy the opponent launch platform first. At 30km the drones are significantly bigger and expensive so all defenses becomes more viable.

There will be a technological-environmental determined equilibrium in vehicle ranges, where offense and defense is in equilibrium: in which increasing the range means inability to cost effective penetrate defenses, while decreasing range means enemy offense can penetrate your own defenses before you can attack.

As for soldiers, they have no reason to be anywhere outside of tunnels when drone and other robotic warfare is developed, and they'd be removed if tunnel navigating robots are developed.
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You could deploy them in hives, so they act like mines as the enemy approaches, but with a swarm of high explosive insects. You could even deploy them via parachute off glide bombs.

Post #794 and #795 may be relevant.
 
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Orionblamblam said:
If so, only briefly. Soon enough there will be *swarms* of slaughterbots. You could easily deploy 10,000 of them from a van or an aircraft, each just smart enough to attack a single human. You won't defeat those with thrilling aerial dogfights by defensive slaughterbots, unless defensive drones are deployed in superior numbers. it might become necessary for each solider on a battlefield, and then every civilian *near* a conflict, to carry a backpack loaded with def-drones that launch on a split second notice and hover about you at a range of a few yards.

Advanced versions of quadcopters like this might carry a gram of Semtex, easily enough to perforate your noggin.

View attachment 734436


Twenty bucks just isn't that much for a reasonably reliable anti-individual weapon.
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Okay, yes, those will be weird to deal with.

I think I'd put an explosively triggered EMP generator on the defensive swarm, however. Especially if I can then recover the defense drones afterwards instead of having to deal with a couple grams of SEMTEX sending drone fragments everywhere.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Okay, yes, those will be weird to deal with.
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If they weigh one ounce each (~28 grams), one percent of them result in a kill, and when purchased in bulk they cost five bucks each, a swarm of 10,000 would weigh 625 pounds and would cost $50,000. You could easily carry the swarm in a decent sized car and they'd kill 100 people and injure many more. All for the price of a few stolen automobiles.

Now, 625 pounds of semtex would doubtless cost much less than $50,000 and could conceivable kill about 100 when used as a carbomb or series of them. But the swarm would present a special horror of its own (especially if the AI system controlling them can discriminate and target individuals based on race, sex, age, eye color, clothing, etc.) and, unlike a car bomb, would be able to infiltrate structures. And in that case, a densely populated structure - a theater, school, hospital, station, etc. - would doubtless increase the kill efficiency. It's not unreasonable to assume kill percentages getting close to 100%.

"Weird" won't begin to cover it.

Scott Kenny said:
I think I'd put an explosively triggered EMP generator on the defensive swarm, however.
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I'd question how effective such a system would be. And if the defensive system is setting off a series of non-stop explosions, how many people will that system kill all by its lonesome?
 
Orionblamblam said:
If so, only briefly. Soon enough there will be *swarms* of slaughterbots. You could easily deploy 10,000 of them from a van or an aircraft, each just smart enough to attack a single human.
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How resistant will those 10,000 cheap swarm drones be to EW like HPM or lasers? And all you really need to stop drones like those are a net - have 4-10 defense drones raise a net between them and you'll catch most of those little FPV drones. Other defenses could be sonic generator guns, EMP generators, defensive ramming drones. The biggest issue I see with combating this type of swarm would be if its released inside a city - those before mentioned defenses will be difficult to use inside a city at a moments notice.

If such swarms happens, a likely outcome will be governments banning non registered drone use during times of war - and setting up permanent drone defenses in cities. If a non registered drone is used it will be engaged by the defenses and destroyed.
 
Shoes31 said:
How resistant will those 10,000 cheap swarm drones be to EW like HPM or lasers?
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Probably not very. But you'll need to have such systems available *everywhere* in vast abundance.


Shoes31 said:
And all you really need to stop drones like those are a net - have 4-10 defense drones raise a net between them and you'll catch most of those little FPV drones.
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How big is that net, when you're trying to defend against a swarm sized to take out a stadium or every human in a field? And if four drone are your defense... it will only take one or two drone to take enough of *them* out to make the net worthless. Attack-drones can be zippy little nightmares; the net-drones will necessarily be relatively stationary targets.

Shoes31 said:
If such swarms happens, a likely outcome will be governments banning non registered drone use during times of war
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Yeah, but it won't matter. Nations that ban civilian firearm ownership are hardly safe against an invading army; banning drones won't help you when dealing with people intent on massacre. *Eventually* 3d printers will be able to print if not the whole thing, at least most of it.
fbf9ae1dfad765a4876aceaee040b645b95ce5be.gif
 
Orionblamblam said:
How big is that net, when you're trying to defend against a swarm sized to take out a stadium or every human in a field? And if four drone are your defense... it will only take one or two drone to take enough of *them* out to make the net worthless. Attack-drones can be zippy little nightmares; the net-drones will necessarily be relatively stationary targets.


Yeah, but it won't matter. Nations that ban civilian firearm ownership are hardly safe against an invading army; banning drones won't help you when dealing with people intent on massacre. *Eventually* 3d printers will be able to print if not the whole thing, at least most of it.
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One net does not have to cover the whole area. You could potentially even have an electric charge going across the net so it acts like an electric fence and the defensive drones drag it catching and disabling a large number of small attack drones. And nothing is stopping the defender from using 100 to 10,000 drones in their net defense, just like the attacker is using 10,000 drones in their attack. Heck each defense drone could shoot out a capture net instead of it being a drag net.

The point of banning non registered drone use isn't to stop an invading army or terrorist. The point is when the defense system detects a drone in the air and it is not authorized - it is automatically engaged no questions asked. So whatever defense system you have for these swarms is used automatically. I don't care if you can 3d print the whole drone and use it, the point is when its detected it is taken out no questions asked. So when the drone swarm is released in a city you have a system capable of handling it.
 
Shoes31 said:
The point is when the defense system detects a drone in the air and it is not authorized - it is automatically engaged
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Yeah, that's a problem. I don't doubt that such a system could be employed (or at least legally mandated), but a government that is "we will prosecute with prejudice anything we haven't approved" is a government you do NOT want to live under. They could never keep up with the tech anyway. Right now a "nano" drone fits in your palm, weighs about an ounce. We're not far from bumblebee sized. Then fly. Then skeeter. A bot the size and even form of a mosquito that can live for maybe an hour and can inject, say, AIDS or Ebola into three or four people is not that far away. Such things could be stamped out by the millions, enough to infect an entire nation in a day.

DOOOOOOOOOM.

What's the best way to defend against drones? Get the frak offworld. The Scattering is our best and, really, only hope against the myriad of existential threat that are coming our way. But in the mean time, *something* will have to be done, but damned if I know what.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Yeah, that's a problem. I don't doubt that such a system could be employed (or at least legally mandated), but a government that is "we will prosecute with prejudice anything we haven't approved" is a government you do NOT want to live under.
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It all depends on when and where they put up a No drone flying zone. Willy nilly in peace time you have a point, wartime though?

Wartime alot of privileges get revoked with warnings of course. Like in WW2 there was stories of people getting arrested or worse shot by drunkly wondering into a military base by mistake. That's was in the western Allies mind you.


As is the US military already have a solid control of basically every military base Airspace. 2/3s of the Air Guard job is chasing idiots off in Cessna from military ranges.

And the MPs already half the need authority to zap any drone coming near a military installation, just needs general approve, and that can be down grade fast.

That's the nice end of the spectrum.

Theres countries in western Europe that will grab the down drone flying near a military base, finds out who owns it and kick in their door to "politely" ask questions.

The frame works already there and ready for more meat to get added, idiots and others continuing to give reasons for.
 
Firefinder said:
It all depends on when and where they put up a No drone flying zone. Willy nilly in peace time you have a point, wartime though?

Wartime alot of privileges get revoked
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Thing is, drone tech right now is largely "war." Drone tech in the near future will be "terrorism." Imagine if Al Queda had had the drone swarm slaughterbot tech being discussed. Instead of crashing planes into the WTC, they could have simply parked a few vans in/near the building and slaughtered 40,000 people in a matter of minutes. Depending on the level of control tech they'd had, they could have programmed the drones to murder everyone *but* people holding cameras. End result would have been a *lot* of horrifying videos, and that's assuming that the drone themselves didn't broadcast everything worldwide in real time.

Hell, with the AI systems we have now, they could've used facial recognition to ID 90% of the victims. And then send The Last Moment Of John Doe videos to everyone on John Does contact list.

You get *one* incident like that and the government will government and they;ll clamp down drone tech to Amish levels... but only for the law abiding.
 
With the assassination attempt on Trump today, it raises the obvious thought that some day soon we'll see assassination attempts on major national "leaders" via drone swarms. Given the spectacular failure of the Secret Service today to properly prepare for a conventional attempt, how they'd deal with something utterly new can be only grimly guessed at.
 
Forest Green said:
These pointy EW guns don't look too succesful.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HTYbJSJb3I

www.twz.com

Shotgun Pellet-Like Rifle Ammo, Gun-Mounted Jammers On Marine Anti-Drone Wishlist

A push to make every Marine can be a counter-drone defender is pulling from very low-tech and very high-tech concepts.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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I have seldom seen a weapon system so badly designed (Jam gun).
Great we have today those images available to the general public.

Notice that the guard with the black helmet is probably supposed to be on station on the elevated stand (you can see that they are not scaffolds or elevated passageway, and have a backrest directed toward the tanks meant to be protected).

The only thing lacking in this movie is the guy from the startup advertising falconry against UAS [/Irony]
 
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Forest Green said:
www.twz.com

Laser Dazzlers For Defending Tanks Against Marauding Drones Are An Untapped Countermeasure

Advanced laser dazzlers mounted on armored vehicles could automatically blind incoming drones during their vulnerable terminal attack runs.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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I can see ways the avoid the dazzlers, though. IIRC blue and green are the two favored colors for dazzlers, both of which have very specific wavelengths. Set up your camera to ignore all light at those laser freqs and you're not blind until the heat buildup overloads the camera. You can do that with lens coatings or on the chip itself. Or both.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I can see ways the avoid the dazzlers, though. IIRC blue and green are the two favored colors for dazzlers, both of which have very specific wavelengths. Set up your camera to ignore all light at those laser freqs and you're not blind until the heat buildup overloads the camera. You can do that with lens coatings or on the chip itself. Or both.
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Wouldn't that also work with DIRCM though, assuming it was possible? The counter could also be easily countered by shifting frequency with the dazzler.
 

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