Drones and how to kill them?

Given the proliferation of microwave anti-drone devices, is there any difference in vulnerability between fully autonomous and data-linked or pilot-in-the-loop drones?

I'd suspect that if you have comms aerials it's going to help couple RF-energy into the innards, but is it a significant difference?
 
The Houthis are racking up a pretty impressive kill-count... Have we reached the end of the Predator?

For drones, what I simply don't understand is why not AHEAD rounds from a 30-50mm autocannon - and building simply a ton of them. Is the defended area difference between that and AWPKS really that great? Every base needs point defenses so bring back (heavily modernized) AAA at WW2 scale.
 
DrRansom said:
The Houthis are racking up a pretty impressive kill-count... Have we reached the end of the Predator?
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I mean, it's not like Predators or Reapers have any defensive systems installed in them... No chaff or flares, no radar detectors to know they've been illuminated, no missile approach and warning systems...

Why is anyone expecting a completely undefended airframe to be able to fly around in contested skies?!?


DrRansom said:
For drones, what I simply don't understand is why not AHEAD rounds from a 30-50mm autocannon - and building simply a ton of them. Is the defended area difference between that and AWPKS really that great? Every base needs point defenses so bring back (heavily modernized) AAA at WW2 scale.
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Well, the 35mm AHEAD guns have a 4000m max altitude and a max range of ~4000m under radar control. APKWS has more like a 10km range.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I mean, it's not like Predators or Reapers have any defensive systems installed in them... No chaff or flares, no radar detectors to know they've been illuminated, no missile approach and warning systems...

Why is anyone expecting a completely undefended airframe to be able to fly around in contested skies?!?
Click to expand...
The skies of the Middle East's backward states used to be uncontested and perfect for the Predator, but now even Yemen is heavily contested. That's quite a change.

As for the rest, yes, to get 6 kind-of betrays a lack of imagination by US planners.

Scott Kenny said:
Well, the 35mm AHEAD guns have a 4000m max altitude and a max range of ~4000m under radar control. APKWS has more like a 10km range.
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It obviously won't be answered here, but what is APKWS range from ground launch against a moving target? The 10km range quoted may be air-launched against fixed target - a different range equation entirely.
 
DrRansom said:
It obviously won't be answered here, but what is APKWS range from ground launch against a moving target? The 10km range quoted may be air-launched against fixed target - a different range equation entirely.
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I think in this case the air-launch platform would have been a hovering heli though, so not that much difference.
 
"Israel is examining the M61 Vulcan cannon to counter drones, according to the Israel Defense Forces, with local media reporting the weapon would go atop armored personnel carriers deployed along the northern border // The Israel-based Alma Research and Education Center recently estimated that Hezbollah has more than 2,500 UAVs "

In effect bringing back the M163 VADS built in the 60's and 70's, with the 20mm Mk 149 round with its sub-caliber 12 mm depleted uranium penetrator effective range claimed to be 2.5 km.

www.defensenews.com

Israel examines M61 Vulcan for countering drones

The potential acquisition comes as Israel clashes with the Lebanon-based militant group Hezbollah, which has launched drones and missiles toward Israel.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
 
DrRansom said:
The Houthis are racking up a pretty impressive kill-count... Have we reached the end of the Predator?

For drones, what I simply don't understand is why not AHEAD rounds from a 30-50mm autocannon - and building simply a ton of them. Is the defended area difference between that and AWPKS really that great? Every base needs point defenses so bring back (heavily modernized) AAA at WW2 scale.
Click to expand...

I suspect boring industrial issues are why EAPS had been killed, in favor of pursuing HPMs and modifications of existing ordnance, but I don't really have any evidence for this or anything. Introducing a novel ammunition is hard though, and between XM913's 50x228mm and EAPS's 50x330mm, the former wins because it's an existing inventory munition.

You just compensate by slapping an octuple rack of APKWS on the side of an air defense M913-armed PABM-spitting M37 Linebacker II.

DrRansom said:
The skies of the Middle East's backward states used to be uncontested and perfect for the Predator, but now even Yemen is heavily contested. That's quite a change.

As for the rest, yes, to get 6 kind-of betrays a lack of imagination by US planners.
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It's probably the same reason a Nighthawk got killed in Kosovo. Mission planning is more heavily constrained by political considerations than the alternative. Still, better six Reapers, than six AH-64s, or a single JSF though.

Spare UAS should just be stockpiled in flat pack crates, like how the Essexes stockpiled spare F4Us on the hangar ceiling hooks, tbh. Don't publicize the loss rates because it's a robot and it has no family, so there's no need to make a big deal about it.
 
Have there been attempts to use MMW radar to detect drones and cue an RCWS to shoot at them?

The main issue that seems to be occurring is that its hard to detect FPV drones in the first place. Jamming seems to have worked quite well against off-the-shelf drones, as the rates at which they are being used seems to have declined, and it seems like both sides are now using purpose-built drones, which are more expensive. I think passive means such as cage and bar armour might be somewhat effective against smaller drones, but modifying APS to counter drones as well would be a much better option. Active measures require means of detection, and I'm not sure what advancements have been made on that front. Perhaps MMW radar could be a solution?
 
Sineva said:
Heres the view from inside the kamov during an interception,looks like a door gunner and also pilot operated twin 2 barrel gun pods from the sound of it.
Why they dont just use an atgm I honestly dont know..... :rolleyes:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1787449070270701670
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There were times when the heli was close enough that if the drone had exploded, they would have been in trouble. It wasn't smart at all.
 
Jason Dykstra (Wyvern) said:
Have there been attempts to use MMW radar to detect drones and cue an RCWS to shoot at them?

The main issue that seems to be occurring is that its hard to detect FPV drones in the first place. Jamming seems to have worked quite well against off-the-shelf drones, as the rates at which they are being used seems to have declined, and it seems like both sides are now using purpose-built drones, which are more expensive. I think passive means such as cage and bar armour might be somewhat effective against smaller drones, but modifying APS to counter drones as well would be a much better option. Active measures require means of detection, and I'm not sure what advancements have been made on that front. Perhaps MMW radar could be a solution?
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That what the Army and Marines be using for their new Short range ADA system. Ku and shorter bands which work just fine for smacking small FPV drones.
 
uk 75 said:
This thread is not intended to discuss any individual countries use of drones as UAV are now called.
consortiq.com

A Not-So-Short History of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) - Consortiq

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), or drones, have a very storied history. In fact, UAVs go back as far as 1783! Here's what to know.
consortiq.com consortiq.com
Rather it is to have a place where we can look at general developments in UAV technology and ways to kill drones.
Drones offer a cheaper and easier to use alternative to aircraft, missiles, and a range of systems.
Current drones are small and cheap. killing them needs expensive weapons designed to shoot down planes and missiles.
Perhaps we need to go back to more basic weapons like shotguns and cannons slaved to effective jamming and detection systems.
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Interference and detection is the key, although given the massive Iranian drone attack on Israel, if it is not surprising, then it will not cause damage, it is a low-grade weapon, I do not think it will work so easily against a professional and experienced army like the American one. despite being a very widespread method due to the lack of resources and an army overestimated in power like the Russian one.
 

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Net guns were one of the first counter-drone technologies proposed, going back to at least 2016. Are the Russians really only just catching up now?
 
DWG said:
Net guns were one of the first counter-drone technologies proposed, going back to at least 2016. Are the Russians really only just catching up now?
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Could be only recently they're feeling the extent of the problem. Individual squads can't be packing their own SAM systems and the drone situation in Ukraine is down to the personal level. I don't think people saw that coming so soon.
 
sferrin said:
Could be only recently they're feeling the extent of the problem. Individual squads can't be packing their own SAM systems and the drone situation in Ukraine is down to the personal level. I don't think people saw that coming so soon.
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Would have to agree with that.

But a shotgun is a short ranged system, 50m or so. Maybe stretching it to 100m with some fancy wads/shot cups like Federal Flight Control.

Works for FPV kamikazes, not so effective against anything with a standoff weapon.
 
Forest Green said:
www.twz.com

Does The U.S. Need To Be Building Hardened Aircraft Shelters For Its Combat Aircraft?

The US military and Congress are increasingly butting heads over aircraft shelters even as threats, especially from drones, grow.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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While the usual answer to any headline that comes in the form of a question is "NO", this is probably the exception that proves the rule.

But let's make them bigger than the 44ft wingspan fighter HAS in Europe this time. Let's go ahead and future-proof a bit, and make them big enough to stick something the size of an SR-71 or A-5 in them, 56ft wingspan.
 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1WJb2UyVXs

www.hartpunkt.de

Minenräumpanzer und Kurzstrecken-Luftverteidigungssystem: FFG zeigt in Paris gepanzerte Innovationen

In der kommenden Woche in Paris auf der Eurosatory, der weltgrößten Messe rund um Verteidigungstechnologien, neueste Trends und technische Entwicklungen vorgestellt. Auch das mittelständische Unternehmen FFG ist dabei und wird nach eigenen Angaben verschiedene Innovationen im Bereich geschützter...
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de
https://twitter.com/x/status/1801301953395204488
View: https://x.com/JonHawkes275/status/1801301953395204488
 
F.L. said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1799821762005533096
View: https://x.com/TheAviationist/status/1799821762005533096?t=AidTtTVHvZ4vuX8cYqUVVQ&s=19

View attachment 731353
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If you are using a full sized aircraft to hunt drones, I wonder if it might make sense to use auto-aimed turreted weapons. Something like the AM-180 wouldn't weigh much but would spit out a high rate of fire of .22LR rounds... terrible against most targets bu just spiffy against drones. And it would be cheap.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si7Q6BCPBYg
 
Orionblamblam said:
If you are using a full sized aircraft to hunt drones, I wonder if it might make sense to use auto-aimed turreted weapons. Something like the AM-180 wouldn't weigh much but would spit out a high rate of fire of .22LR rounds... terrible against most targets bu just spiffy against drones. And it would be cheap.
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Rimfire ammunition isn't reliable enough. At least not if you're using the round being fired to power the weapon. It'd be acceptable for a chain gun type weapon.

Honestly, fitting it with a P90 5.7x28mm and 50rd magazines would probably be best.
 

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