Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

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An excellent picture on DefenseNews that illustrates perfectly the paradox of Swiss defence: the "macho" way (not on a negative term, assuming you can read it correctly without being misogynistic).
IMOHO, written years ago already, there is no way Swiss AF will abandon a 50deg AoA aircraft for a 28+... It would be like expecting an episode of Chip's with them riding Yamaha 125

chips.jpg

Uh, wait...
 
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Archibald said:
In the case of Switzerland they are surrounded by powerful Air Forces - France Germany Italy Belgium... but I don't think they are willing to "outsource" air defense to others.
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I thought they did already? I recall reading a couple of years ago that the Swiss Air Force was unable to intercept a suspect plane because they went home at weekends, and had a cover agreement with another country (Austria? Can't recall).

Looking at it from the outside, this fighter purchase seems to me to be motivated by: "other countries have air forces, so we should have one too" rather than any coldly logical analysis of needs and value for money. I don't know what the Swiss SAM coverage is like, but I would have thought that a modern, mobile SAM system would provide a deterrent to any hostile incursions at a fraction of the price (purchase and running costs).
 
Tony Williams said:
Archibald said:
In the case of Switzerland they are surrounded by powerful Air Forces - France Germany Italy Belgium... but I don't think they are willing to "outsource" air defense to others.
Click to expand...

I thought they did already? I recall reading a couple of years ago that the Swiss Air Force was unable to intercept a suspect plane because they went home at weekends, and had a cover agreement with another country (Austria? Can't recall).

Looking at it from the outside, this fighter purchase seems to me to be motivated by: "other countries have air forces, so we should have one too" rather than any coldly logical analysis of needs and value for money. I don't know what the Swiss SAM coverage is like, but I would have thought that a modern, mobile SAM system would provide a deterrent to any hostile incursions at a fraction of the price (purchase and running costs).
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Yes it happened :
www.lopinion.fr

Les forces aériennes suisses n'assurent la police du ciel que pendant les heures de bureau...

Ce matin, un Mirage-2000 de l'armée de l'air a escorté un Boeing éthiopien détourné.
www.lopinion.fr www.lopinion.fr
Some Mirage 2000-5 did followed a lost Ethiopian Airline in Swiss air space because of that.

But note , there is a strong "we don't want to spend any more money on the army" movement in Switzerland. So I don't know to what extent these stories comes out in the press to say that Swiss pilots really don't fly the weekends, or to show how useless it is to have an air force if the neighbours can do the job...

Fact is , Swiss air force do some trainings with their neighbours, and there are certainly limited agreements if one or the other is unable to conduct an air policing mission to get help from the other side of the border.

But Switzerland is very attached to his neutrality policy, and since the big wars in Europe, that policy imply having an Army to defend itself independently (whether that can be effective can be debated), thus being part of no international military organisation (like Nato), or the EU . So its more complicated to have your neighbours doing the air policing job in your air space the whole year if you don't want to be part of any of their organisations.
As for SAM, i'm sure Swiss army have some already, but that tool would be a bit definitive for the air policing mission that is the center of the question in this acquisition.
 
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galgot said:
Yes it happened :

Some Mirage 2000-5 did followed a lost Ethiopian Airline in Swiss air space because of that.

But note , there is a strong "we don't want to spend any more money on the army" movement in Switzerland. So I don't know to what extent these stories comes out in the press to say that Swiss pilots really don't fly the weekends, or to show how useless it is to have an air force if the neighbours can do the job...

Fact is , Swiss air force do some trainings with their neighbours, and there are certainly limited agreements if one or the other is unable to conduct an air policing mission to get help from the other side of the border.

But Switzerland is very attached to his neutrality policy, and since the big wars in Europe, that policy imply having an Army to defend itself independently (whether that can be effective can be debated), thus being part of no international military organisation (like Nato), or the EU . So its more complicated to have your neighbours doing the air policing job in your air space the whole year if you don't want to be part of any of their organisations.
As for SAM, i'm sure Swiss army have some already, but that tool would be a bit definitive for the air policing mission that is the center of the question in this acquisition.
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Thanks for your response. That then goes back to the question of what kind of aircraft would be well suited to do the policing job, and how many would be needed. On the question of armament, I would have thought that a cannon would have been most important, loaded with self-destruct tracer ammo which would make a display very visible to the pilot of any miscreant aircraft...
 
Yeah, what Galgot said. The very basis of Swiss politics is - they heavily listen to their people. They have a huge role in such decisions. For good or worse (minarets, cough, cough). Don't forget, a lot of important decisions are tied to popular referendums.
Clearly, in those days of COVID and economic collapse (yes, that shit hit Switzerland, too) any refendum asking people "we need to spend some billion to get combat aircraft to chase lost airliners that might turn into 9-11" is going to get a rather, eeerhm, "Walter Mondale answer" (or was it William Proxmire ?).

You know, his famous quote when asked about whether or not, Congress shall fund NASA preliminary works and studies related to Gerard O'Neill space colonies

"Not a penny for this nutty fantasy" (Proxmire, it was).

In essence, it was the answer they got over the 2014 Grippen deal. And 2020 is, well - 2020.
 
if thats true that the Swiss population has a significant influence over the vote
thats bad for the US jets according to the below article

only 4% polled want a 'Trump' fighter. it seems he is highly unpopular there. that said, I doubt the Swiss will decide their fighter any time soon, and an election change could make Swiss a bit more opotomistic with the US
but it might not remove concerns over software codes which would probably be the same regardless of who wins the elections

most seem to prefer a European fighter so thats good for Typhoon and Rafale

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Many European countries cross-share zulu alerts. Belgium and Netherland take in turns air Policing. Austria assumes air Policing for some of their neighbors. France takes some turns over Switzerland...

With Mach2 interceptors, it makes more sense to co-share Air Policing given the size of many European countries that are under 200n.m wide, distance that can be covered in less than 15 minutes.

Last but not least, Switzerland is a country with 3 main outside cultural influences: Germany, Italy and... France. Something ppl from a certain country tend to forget too easily.
 
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galgot said:
But Switzerland is very attached to his neutrality policy, and since the big wars in Europe, that policy imply having an Army to defend itself independently (whether that can be effective can be debated), thus being part of no international military organisation (like Nato), or the EU . So its more complicated to have your neighbours doing the air policing job in your air space the whole year if you don't want to be part of any of their organisations.
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It's not only more complicated, it's impossible i.e. against the law.

There are agreements in place, by now with all neigbours, that cover flying into other countries airspaces when in pursuit. But they have no authority.
People don't seem to understand neutrality it seems to me. National jurisdiction cannot be outsourced to anyone. Since airspace is part of the sovereign territory, this is also the case in the air.
Austria is the same.
Actually, without special agreements in place, I don't think it is possible to outsource air policing and the like even in NATO countries. Belgium and the Netherlands have a special agreement iirc.
 
Tony Williams said:
Thanks for your response. That then goes back to the question of what kind of aircraft would be well suited to do the policing job, and how many would be needed. On the question of armament, I would have thought that a cannon would have been most important, loaded with self-destruct tracer ammo which would make a display very visible to the pilot of any miscreant aircraft...
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That is really simple.
What kind of aircraft: A supersonic, all-weather interceptor. Performance must be good enough to intercept high and fast flying intruders. All-weather capability requires radar and radar guided AAMs.
How many: For simple 24/7 air policing, 24 aircraft are needed. That has been established on numerous occasions. Countries like Austria or Hungary f.e. cannot provide a 24/7 QRA.
The Swiss air force has requirements beyond air policing. Let's call it limited air defence, because many more fighters, around 100, would be needed to ensure full air defence capabilites.
One of the requirements is for example to have 4 jets in the air for 4 weeks. Things like that determine the requirement of 30-40 fighters.
 
TomcatViP said:
Austria assumes air Policing for some of their neighbors.
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No they don't.
They can, as I mentioned, follow an aircraft into the airspace of neigbouring countries as not to lose contact until handing over to the other country. But they have no authority other than following. In the case of Austria, I don't know which countries other than Switzerland this is possible though.
 
1. See how they all have special arrangements even though they are NATO countries.
2. Austria is not involved in any of those. No clearance or anything else.
 
FighterJock said:
Well done Greece on buying the Rafale to replace the Mirage 2000.
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How can they afford jetfighters? I thought they were in really bad economic problems? Aren't they in really good terms with China? If I'm not mistaken Grece gave the Chinese a port.
 
They have strongly recovered from their 2011 economic meltdown and severe austerity imposed by the EU - in exchange, they got truckloads of other european countries money.
As for funding military gear - as long as nearby Turkey is seen as a threat, the funding gates will stay open. It has been like this since the end of WWII and has gotten worse since the Junta 1967 days, and Cyprus quagmire in '74.

And since 1999 Erdogan does nothing to cool the blaze - a blaze now fired by those gas deposites found at the worst possible place in the Mediterranean sea...
 
12 new Rafale for France to be ordered before the end of the year, after the sale of 12 used Rafale of the Armée de l'Air to Greece (of the 18 sold to this land).

www.sudouest.fr

La France va commander 12 avions de combat Rafale supplémentaires

Selon la ministre des Armées, cette commande vient compenser le prélèvement de 12 appareils d'occasion au profit de la Grèce
www.sudouest.fr www.sudouest.fr
 
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It remains to be seen how much "sold" means a sale with a profit. So far €1.8B has been reported for the total sale but this administration has a lean to give away AdlA assets for cheap (see the donated airframe thread on Keypub).
The fact that MoD indicates a differanciated account balance b/w the loss of airframe and the buy of new airplanes tend to say that it could be very difficult to get the exxact value of this sale.
Especially in the absence of any inquiry.
 
TomcatViP said:
It remains to be seen how much "sold" means a sale with a profit. So far €1.8B has been reported for the total sale but this administration has a lean to give away AdlA assets for cheap (see the donated airframe thread on Keypub).
The fact that MoD indicates a differanciated account balance b/w the loss of airframe and the buy of new airplanes tend to say that it could be very difficult to get the exxact value of this sale.
Especially in the absence of any inquiry.
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The sale of old AdlA Rafales to Greece isn't really meant to be profitable. It is meant to keep the production line going, while simultaneously modernizing the French inventory. They might have simply retired the oldest dozen AdlA aircraft and bought new ones even without the sale to Greece.
 
@TomS : Profit does not obviously means that AdlA should get a direct benefit in the re-sale but that the expense on new airframe is reasonably offset by the price offered for the old ones.
Common sense only.
 
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Unless they would have to buy them... What incidently is the case.
 
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The AdA will get 12 new Rafales to replace the 12 "lost" to the Greeks. Not a bad bargain, after all...
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Greece is going to pay 1,700 million € for 18 Rafale; this gives a unit cost of 94,44 million. It is similar to what India paid before modifications were applied.

In my opinion is a good deal for everybody. France gets another customer for Rafale, with all the advantages it implies in terms of spares, integration of equipment and support. The contract adds another 18 Rafale to the production line, which is equivalent to almost 2 years of production.
 
The greeks wanted the fighters "quickly", and the time to build a Rafale is not the same as to build a Trabant or any today's cheap car... :rolleyes:

And if the plane and the deal had not interested Greece, he would not have placed the order...
 
alejandro_ said:
The contract adds another 18 Rafale to the production line, which is equivalent to almost 2 years of production.
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I really like all three of the Euro-canards, but the production rates are so frustratingly low. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the USMC decides it wants to replace its 140+ F-18C/D with Rafale M (I think it's a good idea, but it will never happen) and fairly quickly since those aricraft are getting pretty old. Ignoring the "must be produced in the U.S." mandate, could the production rate be ramped up to do that in three or four years, or would it take a decade?
 
I'm sure part of this order is about keeping Dassault solvent while the bizjet market is recovering.
Given how ferociously competitive that market was before COVID..it's going to be a bloodbath.
 
marauder2048 said:
I'm sure part of this order is about keeping Dassault solvent while the bizjet market is recovering.
Given how ferociously competitive that market was before COVID..it's going to be a bloodbath.
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No. Really no. It corresponds to a real "gap" for the AdA, made worse by the Greek purchase. Any other aircraft than Rafale, except the Mirage 2000s, has now gone way (F1, SEM...). Even the 2000 fleet is fast shrinking: only the 2000D and -5 are left (AFAIK).
I wish the AdA could get their hands on the UAE Mirage 2000-9 but no chance in hell, what little money they are allocated, has to go to Rafale.
No way in hell the Israeli Mirage VF story happens again (1972-1993).
 
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apparition13 said:
alejandro_ said:
The contract adds another 18 Rafale to the production line, which is equivalent to almost 2 years of production.
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I really like all three of the Euro-canards, but the production rates are so frustratingly low. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the USMC decides it wants to replace its 140+ F-18C/D with Rafale M (I think it's a good idea, but it will never happen) and fairly quickly since those aricraft are getting pretty old. Ignoring the "must be produced in the U.S." mandate, could the production rate be ramped up to do that in three or four years, or would it take a decade?
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Make no mistake, the productions rates are low because the military budgets are scarce. They have been lean since 1993.

The Mérignac plant were the Rafales are build is the same one where 1400 Mirage III were build. While a far more complex aircraft, Rafale production could certainly surge to far higher levels.
The Armée de l'Air, per lack of budget, has for the last twenty years stretched his orders (and Dassault followed with their own Rafale production rates) to a miserable 10 per year or even lower.

Working together, the AdA and Dassault got some kind of weird deal to spread the 180 Rafales order to the absolute minimum annual rates Mérignac (and the contractors) can sustain without collapsing. Sounds crazy ? Like hell it is. Dassault is putting themselves on the edge, praying for the bizjet market and foreign Rafale orders to keep them alive. That's really the present situation.

Dassault is also seen as a "crown jewel" by the French Government - a company that simply can't be allowed to disapear, because it hold in its hand France knowledge "how to make a viable combat aircraft".

And a polar opposite to Lockheed F-35 deal with the US military, Pentagon, and government. Lockheed being given a blank check since 2001 whatever happens. Dassault instead is kind of being fed with peanuts, and one peanut at a time, because even goddam peanuts are too expensive for the AdA razor-thin budget.
 
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Archibald said:
marauder2048 said:
I'm sure part of this order is about keeping Dassault solvent while the bizjet market is recovering.
Given how ferociously competitive that market was before COVID..it's going to be a bloodbath.
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No. Really no. It corresponds to a real "gap" for the AdA,
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It doesn't; Just last year, Dassault was indicating a 30 fighter commitment from France by 2023.
So if there's a gap it was evident for some time with a clear bridging solution.
 
Of course it is evident, as I said - because the 2000s are retiring, because the 180 final order has been stretched too thin over years, and now there is the Greek order.

No need for the bizjet market there, really.
 
Archibald said:
Of course it is evident, as I said - because the 2000s are retiring, because the 180 final order has been stretched too thin over years, and now there is the Greek order.

No need for the bizjet market there, really.
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vs.

Archibald said:
Dassault is putting themselves on the edge, praying for the bizjet market and foreign Rafale orders to keep them alive. That's really the present situation.
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Sorry. The explanation I offered actually fits the observed data. The Mirages didn't suddenly and rapidly age out. It was all quite orderly
with an orderly solution as indeed Dassault was publicly projecting.

The Dassault 5X was an unmitigated disaster. They really don't have particularly competitive offerings in a
ferociously competitive market and they are burning cash developing the 6X in the face of declining
bizjet sales.

So a "gap" emerges. They are important to the French state which owns part of Dassault through Airbus.
It's a completely rationale and justifiable decision but let's not pretend it's anything other than what it is.
 
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