Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

helmutkohl said:
with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
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I don't see Peru having enough $$ for it. They had hard time paying for their M2000s, so for something more expensive...
Taiwan would naturally go for US stuff, but it would highly depend on what US would be willing to sell them in case of serious crisis with PRC.
For the moment it's not that serious so still only upgraded F-16s. With current US admin, very possible they could get F-35s if things get more hot.
The M2000-5 buy was at a time the US was in good terms with PRC and so not willing to sell advanced BWR (Amraam) capable fighters to Taiwan.
Fr sold M2000-5 with Mica (and other things, lot of money went in deep pockets...), and these contracts more than off balanced the threats and pressures from PRC to France.
 
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helmutkohl said:
with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
Click to expand...
Peru, I don't know.

Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction (€ 227 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
 
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Deltafan said:
helmutkohl said:
with Greece buying it..
it seems that most of the Mirage 2000 customers are now becoming Rafale operators.

whats missing
Brazil, Taiwan and Peru?

(although Rafale did originally win in Brazil).
What are the chances of TW and PR getting some raffies
Click to expand...
Peru, I don't know.

Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile ), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
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Yes. At the time of the M2000-5 buy, 1992, France could afford to sell weapons to Taiwan, it's clearly no more the case now. Economic exchanges with PRC were there but not important like big Airbus sales or other big things we have now, plus PRC wasn't the economic power it is now.
 
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Deltafan said:
Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
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perhaps it could change in the near future?
Since the rise of Xi, a lot of countries have begun souring on the PRC's foreign policy and more willing to act against it
(although yes, there are still plenty who still fear PRC economic retaliation, like Disney)
with the PRC starting to buy more of its own domestic aircraft, it could also mean they wont use the Airbus card as much as before in any kind of retaliation
 
helmutkohl said:
Deltafan said:
Taiwan is impossible.
Some years ago, when Taiwan wanted to buy a second batch of Mirage 2000, China threatened France with economic sanctions and since the economic exchanges between France and China were much more important than the sale of the Mirage 2000 to Taiwan (In particular, there were high hopes for cooperation on the automobile), France cancelled the sale. The situation has not changed.
In addition, since, there has been an international arbitration (2017) and a conviction ($ 223 million) for the use of financial commissions by French manufacturers (Dassault, Thomson, SNECMA) for the first sale (1992). French industrialists (now Dassault, Thales, SAFRAN) denied the facts, but paid for the condemnation.
Click to expand...

perhaps it could change in the near future?
Since the rise of Xi, a lot of countries have begun souring on the PRC's foreign policy and more willing to act against it
(although yes, there are still plenty who still fear PRC economic retaliation, like Disney)
with the PRC starting to buy more of its own domestic aircraft, it could also mean they wont use the Airbus card as much as before in any kind of retaliation
Click to expand...
Frankly, I believe, on the contrary, that the increase in Chinese economic and military power will rather make matters worse ...
But I don't know the future ... (among other things, China can also collapse for internal reasons) In the very long term perhaps, but, in my opinion at that time there will only be Rafale in museums ...
 
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GTX said:
helmutkohl said:
are they they only country that will operate both the F-35 and the Rafale?
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Probably going to be a while before Greece gets F-35s
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The somewhat unofficial plan was for the F-35 deliveries to come after the Viper modernization program. Ie in the 2028-2030 timeframe. And to be blunt the US has too much influence within Greece for it not to happen. Rafale... I had lost all hope of seeing it in Greek colours till the recent crisis with Turkey by all accounts really shocked the Greek government most of the political class were firm believers that "wars no more happen". End result buying Rafales in a hurry as they were the only ones that could be immediately available to reinforce the air force particularly if you wanted something relatively long range. Erdoğan the greatest benefactor of the air force and navy.
 
Production tranche 4 for the Rafale comprised 60 airframes, is that correct? It started around 2013 or so? Is that production run complete?

And if so, how many of those tranche 4 planes, which should all be F3R standard, if I am not mistaken, are in service with either the French Air force or the French navy?

As a bonus question - how many of the older standard planes, in service with French Air force/navy have been upgraded to F3R standard by now?
 
It had been twenty years the French Air force should have had its 180 Rafales... soon. Not sure they still have that bare number in service. Note that the original number was 230 plus 90 for the Navy, 320 total, I still have my scrapbook with a newspaper article, dated 1993...
 
Total number is fairly easy. 102 Rafale C/B and 42 Rafale M. As of July 2020. But I can't find those numbers detailed by various variant standards. How many of those are F2, how many F3 and how many F3R? Given that some of the contracted and newly built F3R may yet to be delivered. And given that some of the older standards are continuously being modernized to F3R standard.
 
perhaps a new Rafale sale here?
but also relevant for Eurofighter, Hornet and F-35

www.reuters.com

Swiss voters approve $6.5 bln purchase of fighter jets

Swiss voters backed the government's plan to spend up to 6 billion Swiss francs ($6.46 billion) on new fighter jets in a surprisingly close referendum that was won with a 50.1% majority, Swiss television reported on Sunday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
helmutkohl said:
perhaps a new Rafale sale here?
but also relevant for Eurofighter, Hornet and F-35

www.reuters.com

Swiss voters approve $6.5 bln purchase of fighter jets

Swiss voters backed the government's plan to spend up to 6 billion Swiss francs ($6.46 billion) on new fighter jets in a surprisingly close referendum that was won with a 50.1% majority, Swiss television reported on Sunday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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Considering the leader of the party thats for the purchase said " We don't know whats going to happen in 50 years ", I'd think they'd bank on F-35.
 
It's even worse than that... they bought more of them in 1973, instead of Mirage Milans and A-7 Corsair II ! I can just imagine Marcel Dassault face when learning about that.

"Hunters... they bought second hand Hunters. Damn."

Even more since they had told Dassault the Milan suffered from inferior avionics against the A-7. And then they picked radar-less Hunters. :eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
More seriously: I can really understand why and how Rafales would be overkill for Switzerland. The case of Austrian Typhoons is exemplary.

But, by this logic, they should buy second-hand Greek or UAE Mirage 2000s, at -5 or -9 level of technology.

Even then, they rejected their own choice of Grippens (facepalm).

How about AT-50 supersonic trainers ? Same engine as the old Hornets, incidentally - good old F404. Also the Grippen engine.

Alternatively: second-hand Grippens from the Swedes. Can't remember if Brazil got new ones or second-hand, refurbished ones.
 
Archibald said:
More seriously: I can really understand why and how Rafales would be overkill for Switzerland. The case of Austrian Typhoons is exemplary.

But, by this logic, they should buy second-hand Greek or UAE Mirage 2000s, at -5 or -9 level of technology.

Even then, they rejected their own choice of Grippens (facepalm).

How about AT-50 supersonic trainers ? Same engine as the old Hornets, incidentally - good old F404. Also the Grippen engine.

Alternatively: second-hand Grippens from the Swedes. Can't remember if Brazil got new ones or second-hand, refurbished ones.
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Greece is not selling the -5s anytime soon if anything we want the EGMs modernised to the same level. It's the 800-1000 million Dassault asked for 17 aircraft the stopped this on its tracks, if you are to give a billion for 30 year old airframes go and buy more Rafales instead.
 
I mostly agree with the above - except, well, for Switzerland - and Austria, because Typhoons. Plus the historical precedent of the Hunters.
I mentionned Greece (and the UAE) because they have second-hand Mirage 2000s. Could have mentionned one among the two dozen of countries that have F-16s. The Swiss really should do like Portugal and Italy (the later post-F-104, pre-Typhoon) did. Second-hand F-16s would be perfectly good enough for them.
 
Not sure how any pragmatic thinker in Swiss defense est would sign on any aircraft other than F35. The timeline these aicraft will have exist goes well into 2060. At that point most if not all other aircraft will run into LRU availability (Mirage 2k already) and maintenance problems, not to say technically obsolete to provide any deterrence for backing their neutral stance.

They need an aircraft thats technologically viable to be upgradable throughout its lifetime and has a feasible maintenance routine charted out to 2060-70, F35 solves that.
 
I think a problem would be that second-hand F-16s (which ones ?) would have already consumed a lot of their flight hours now , then Swiss AF use would quickly burn what's left . Plus I've read Swiss AF jets airframes tend to be put at high stress due to flying in mountainous area, but don't know how much that is true.
So anyway, they would need to have their flying lives extended. So you end up paying more again for old airframes...
Unless you found an emirate selling his brand new second-hand F-16-VZC Block-160 of course. Which is rare and wouldn't come at a cheap price .
Or build new Hunters ?...

Anyway, if they buy F-35s, I stop eating chocolate.
 
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" Anyway, if they buy F-35s, I stop eating chocolate".

Take a deep breath and calmly step away from the thought. Those people say and do ALL sorts of weird things. Save yourself mate...........
 
I do think they will go for the F-35 but following your say, why go for used F-16 when it would be easier for them to transition to a SH fleet... And why used ones when LM is still churning them out at a sufficient rate to offer low price?

B/w Belgium chocolates are better but as I understand you, you might have banned them already...
:rolleyes:
 
Bhurki said:
Not sure how any pragmatic thinker in Swiss defense est would sign on any aircraft other than F35. The timeline these aicraft will have exist goes well into 2060. At that point most if not all other aircraft will run into LRU availability (Mirage 2k already) and maintenance problems, not to say technically obsolete to provide any deterrence for backing their neutral stance.

They need an aircraft thats technologically viable to be upgradable throughout its lifetime and has a feasible maintenance routine charted out to 2060-70, F35 solves that.
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Because the F-35 is grossly overkill for Switzerland. Stealth ? they don't need it. No need for them either to join a 3000 aircraft networked worlwide coalition to drop bombs of whatever terrorist foe. Switzerland is pretty peaceful.
 
Archibald said:
Bhurki said:
Not sure how any pragmatic thinker in Swiss defense est would sign on any aircraft other than F35. The timeline these aicraft will have exist goes well into 2060. At that point most if not all other aircraft will run into LRU availability (Mirage 2k already) and maintenance problems, not to say technically obsolete to provide any deterrence for backing their neutral stance.

They need an aircraft thats technologically viable to be upgradable throughout its lifetime and has a feasible maintenance routine charted out to 2060-70, F35 solves that.
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Because the F-35 is grossly overkill for Switzerland. Stealth ? they don't need it. No need for them either to join a 3000 aircraft networked worlwide coalition to drop bombs of whatever terrorist foe. Switzerland is pretty peaceful.
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Air policing/sovereignty protection does seem like the main task for the Swiss Air Force, and it seems like something cheaper than either SH or F-35 ought to be sufficient. Gripen would have been ideal... :rolleyes: Failing that, I don't see why something like the FA-50 would not work.
 
Swiss deter by threatening to input carnage. It won't help them to get second class aircraft.
If then they can put 30+ stealth aircraft in their relatively small airspace, that's pretty much the idea that any foe will have in mind.
 
TomcatViP said:
Swiss deter by threatening to input carnage. It won't help them to get second class aircraft.
If then they can put 30+ stealth aircraft in their relatively small airspace, that's pretty much the idea that any foe will have in mind.
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Switzerland deters aggression by holding a substantial chunk of international banking accounts and having a largely non-confrontational foreign policy. No one has any incentive to invade them. The notion that Switzerland scares off invaders with shows of military force just hasn't been true for decades.
 
TomS said:
TomcatViP said:
Swiss deter by threatening to input carnage. It won't help them to get second class aircraft.
If then they can put 30+ stealth aircraft in their relatively small airspace, that's pretty much the idea that any foe will have in mind.
Click to expand...

Switzerland deters aggression by holding a substantial chunk of international banking accounts and having a largely non-confrontational foreign policy. No one has any incentive to invade them. The notion that Switzerland scares off invaders with shows of military force just hasn't been true for decades.
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So the $6.5B fighter plan and the related referendum are moot?
Surely, if they have the intent to possess a 'force', they must have their reasons.
 
Bhurki said:
TomS said:
TomcatViP said:
Swiss deter by threatening to input carnage. It won't help them to get second class aircraft.
If then they can put 30+ stealth aircraft in their relatively small airspace, that's pretty much the idea that any foe will have in mind.
Click to expand...

Switzerland deters aggression by holding a substantial chunk of international banking accounts and having a largely non-confrontational foreign policy. No one has any incentive to invade them. The notion that Switzerland scares off invaders with shows of military force just hasn't been true for decades.
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So the $6.5B fighter plan and the related referendum are moot?
Surely, if they have the intent to possess a 'force', they must have their reasons.
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As I said, air policing has to be the principal one -- the ability to intercept aircraft that aren't responding to air traffic control and identify, escort, redirect, and in a very unlikely worst case, shoot them down. Far more likely to be some sort of terrorist attack than an armed invasion. Edit: And for this mission, you do not need a 5th Gen stealth fighter-bomber.

I don't doubt that there are also internal political reasons not driven by an objective assessment of the external threat...
 
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Question is not about going to war, Switzerland is very far from that situation. But it's very much about having a plane for air policing for the specific of Swiss air space and terrain. Last contests have shown they need something that can intercept fast (climb high fast) , and still have enough fuel to pursue and follow long enough something fast and high like an airliner. For that, only Rafale and Typhoon could do like they wanted during last tests, following the Swiss Air Force requirements. Rafale having the preference. Gripen was found to be too short ranged.
But at the time it was the C model that had been evaluated, not the NG. And after the circus of trashing their own army evaluation, choosing the Gripen C , then trashing everything and launching a referendum... Saab was excluded from the show, so we will never know if the NG could meet the requirements.
Of course they could buy something like FA-50, but then according the army requirements, it would hardly be good enough.
 
whilst I agree that Switzerland arguably does not require fighters, I also know that RUAG would love to gain access to supporting the F-35 and the Swiss purchase could be seen as a way to help do that.
 
TomS said:
galgot said:
Last contests have shown they need something that can intercept fast (climb high fast) , and still have enough fuel to pursue and follow long enough something fast and high like an airliner.
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Man, it sounds like what they really want it an armed Aerion AS2.
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See ? An argument more for my idea of launching yet another SSBJ maker company called « SP-Jets ».
Besides proposing it as a Supersonic AF-One for getting funds from the US DoD, we could design an armed version and sell it to the Swiss !
And get an indigestion of chocolate.
 
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galgot said:
TomS said:
galgot said:
Last contests have shown they need something that can intercept fast (climb high fast) , and still have enough fuel to pursue and follow long enough something fast and high like an airliner.
Click to expand...

Man, it sounds like what they really want it an armed Aerion AS2.
Click to expand...
See ? An argument more for my idea of launching yet another SSBJ maker company called « SP-Jets ».
Besides proposing it as a Supersonic AF-One of getting funds from the US DoD, we could design an armed version and sell it to the Swiss !
And get an indigestion of chocolate.
Click to expand...

I'm in. I can make pretty powerpoints. If you can make some cool 3d images, we're all set.
 
Considering how long they keep their aircraft I can’t see how their choice would be anything other than the F-35.
 
It's not just aircraft cost guys, if the Swiss buy the super Hornet they can use most of their current infrastructure, as opposed to having to spend tens of millions to rework everything to support the F-35. Plus flying costs of the F-35 as opposed to the Superbug are... Kinda a big thing. Just like the relative maintenance costs. Over a lifespan of 8000 hours, that shit adds up very fast.
Plus all that ordnance they have lying around right now that's compatible with the Superbug, but not the F-35.

And retraining pilots from Hornet to Superbug is a lot easyer than going from Hornet to F-35.
 
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Brilliantly said. Plus, what Galgot said here

Swiss AF jets airframes tend to be put at high stress due to flying in mountainous area
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Which evenly matches what SH endures during carrier ops. Another argument favoring the SuperBug.
 
Given that the Swiss are neutral to politics and have zero interested parties for invasion. Would it not be better served by doing what the Irish republic does? If someone else wants to pay to do the job, let them.
 
And NZ famously disbanded its fast jet force in 2002 per lack of any serious threat. You say Ireland but there is also the case of the baltic states air defended by NATO.

In the case of Switzerland they are surrounded by powerful Air Forces - France Germany Italy Belgium... but I don't think they are willing to "outsource" air defense to others.
 
Very ironic, the states formerly "Defended" by the Warsaw pact/USSR/Russia, now being Defended by NATO. Something they no doubt see less funny in Moscow.
 

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