It's just an RVV-AE / K-77 without stabilizers installed. No internal equivalent was ever accepted in service for RuAF. It's rough equivalent is AIM-120B and it has been offered for export since 2000s.
RVV-AE / K-77, MAKS-2007 (note the form of the base for lattice rudder and fairings for laser proximity fuse)
The RVV-AE medium-range air-to-air missile is designed to engage air targets (fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, helicopters, military transport aircraft and cruise missiles) from any direction, day ...
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RVV-SD / K-77-1 / R-77-1 (in RuAF service) for reference
The RVV-SD medium-range air-to-air missile is designed to engage air targets (fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, helicopters, military transport aircraft and cruise missiles) from any direction, day ...
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English markings serve as an additional confirmation of an export model. There was no other "secret" medium range AA missile in serial production in 2018-19 other than these.
They blue lines show us a visual distortion from a fisheye camera.
You yourself posted pictures about that show no bent shapes and a classical cylindrical form.
His weight for R-37M is also off. ROE stated weight for RVV-BD are "up to 510 kg". I doubt that RuAF's model comes almost 20% heavier than an export one, considering the missiles are identical in shapes.
I do find it interesting that the rvv-bd export model has a listed max range of 200km and that stealthflanker's simulations show around 200km max unlofted range. So the export R-37m may lack the datalinks for communicating with other vehicles which would allow kills beyond radar horizon I am guessing. Export version can probably only talk to it's host carrier.
Export version of the R-37M /Izd. 610M known as Izd 620 has the same launch distances as R-37M. I don't know any of the exported AAM's that has less launch distances then the version used in Soviet/Russian AF.
Main differences between export version and the domestic version of one radar guided AAM is in the so called carrier or 'liter' frequencies. E.g. those used by active or semi-active radar seekers and of course by radio-proximity fuse.
If we talk about that so called 'max/min ranges' or better max/min authorised launch distances, we have three launch parameters: 'Dr max 1' or authorised launch distance against non-maneuvering air target. 'Dr max 2' as authorised launch distance against maneuverable air target and we have 'Dr min' as min authorised launch distance. Authorisation of course comes from the WCS. As we all know ,launch distances depend on many factors/parameters: speed/alt of the fighter and its target,angle aspect and hemisphere etc etc...
R-37M should have max launch distance in 'Dr max 1' parameter for engaging big /means bigger frontal RCS/ incoming air target of 400 kms ( should have). Note: record-breaking launch distance ever, was achieved on April 1994 during one exercise with test AAM type K-37/Izd 610 launched from the prototype MiG-31M number 057 blue.Launch distance was 304kms.
I've seen Izdeliye 270 mentioned as a designation for a new missile but as a clean-sheet replacement to R-77 (170). People have speculated this missile might be 270 but I've seen no evidence this is anything but speculation.
We have Izd 171-1 and also that Izd 180. Of course, VKS fighters MiG-31BM,Su-30SM/SM2 and Su-35S and MA-VMF MiG-29K/KUB use R-77-1 or Izd 170-1 for years now /became operational in small numbers from the beginning of 2016/.
Tried to find that article in which Izd 270 is mentioned but right now Vympel site is unavailable. There is one article from 'bmpd' about some results that Vympel achieved in 2020.
Программы НИОКР ГосМКБ «Вымпел» имени И.И. Торопова
They mentioned AAM known as BD-bolshaya dalynost ' or better to say it was Izd 810 as ready for the ground and fligtht tests. About AAM known as MD -malaya dalynost,plan was to finnish tests until the end of 2020. MD was RVV-MD2 or Izd 760/R-74M2 ,I guess. About AAM known as SD-srednaya dalynost ,source wrote that this AAM was in the phase ready for State tests. Question is ,which AAM in fact, Izd 180 ? What about that Izd 270 ....
They also mentioned that in 2020 export version of R-37M / RVV-BD/ known also as Izd 620 was in the State tests.
В корпоративной газете Вымпел АО Государственное машиностроительное конструкторское бюро Вымпел имени И.И. Торопова (АО ГосМКБ Вымпел им. И.И. Торопова) - ведущего российского предприятия в области разработки и производства…
They blue lines show us a visual distortion from a fisheye camera.
You yourself posted pictures about that show no bent shapes and a classical cylindrical form.
Hi, sorry but I don't understand your comment. No pls take a look at this pic and try to find differences between AAM's marked with blue and yellow lines. I think/ hope that you will find them,you will understand that we have two different AAM's on the pic.
Again, photo was taken in 2018 in Vympel.
.
About the launch weight of the R-37M or Izd 610M ,yes ,ROE 'said' it is 510kgs but is it right ? Launch weight of the old R-33/Izd 410 is about 500kgs, of R-33S/Izd 520 is about 520kgs, then of only test K-37 or Izd 610 was about 600kgs.R-37M is the Russian modified version of the old Soviet K-37 where e.g. only radar seeker 9B1103M-350 is 3 times lighter then old radar seeker 9B1388 in K-37 ( 13 kgs vs 39 kgs ) ,then warhead ( 60kgs) is the same. Both AAM's has the same body diameter ,old K-37 is little bit longer .So my question is, where almost 100 kgs disappeared ?
About RVV-AE ( R-77 or export R-77E ) and RVV-SD ( R-77-1/L and export R-77-1EL), yes , you were right. In this pic we can see differences beetwen them in the arsenal of the PLAAF. Photo taken in Jan 2018. PLAAF got R-77-1EL together with Su-35.
В соответствии с распространенной в преддверии форума «Армия-2023» информацией, заранее стало известно о том, что будет представлена новая управляемая авиаракета класса «воздух-возду…
missiles.ru
Saw this article with images of the new rvv-md2/r-74m2. Looks pretty awesome. Over at russiadefenseforum they were translating some of the info from the brochure. Here are some pics from the article above.
What we know about the radar seekers for the AAM's that are planned for the Su-57 ? AAM's like Product 171-1 ,then 180,270,300M and 810 have radar seekers. Products 750 and 760 have passive IR seekers of course.
Active radar seeker 9B1103M has three versions : 9B-1103M-150 Colibry, 9B1103M-200 Progress and 9B1103M-350 Shayba. 9B1103M-200 ( PA/PS ) is part of the Product 170-1 (R-77-1/L) and 9B1103M-350 is part of the Product 610M or R-37M.
What we have here ?
From left to right ... we have 9B1348E that is part of the R-77E ( Product 190) ,only for export. Works only in X-band. Then there is 9B1103M-350 for the R-37M, it works in X and Ku-band. I'm not sure for this 9B1103M-150 ,which AAM or maybe SAM is part of? Then we have those 9B1103M-200PA/PS as part of the R-77-1/L. Works in X and Ku-band too.
The document discusses the development of new generations of active radar homing heads by the Moscow Agat Research Institute. It describes an upgraded 9B-1103M homing head that has improved performance over previous models. The institute is now developing a new high-performance digital active...
www.scribd.com
If I'm right,AAM's Products 171-1, 180 and 270 have the same diameter ( 200mm) ,so there must be some new active radar seeker ( maybe based on AESA) with antenna diameter of 200mm.There is very little info about that after so many years.Also about the radar seeker for the Product 810.
There are two new active radar seekers 9B1103M1 and M2 with antenna diameters 150mm and 100mm.
Found this Izd. 300 screenshot in an IISS pdf while looking for something else, haven't seen it posted here. Are there pictures (rather than just drawings) showing the whole missile, or at least the rear part?
Found this Izd. 300 screenshot in an IISS pdf while looking for something else, haven't seen it posted here. Are there pictures (rather than just drawings) showing the whole missile, or at least the rear part? View attachment 767450
Great spotting, that's another elusive missile. Any recent info as to what R-33S really is, a nuke version of R-33 or an overall improvement of same, retaining a conventional warhead?
Great spotting, that's another elusive missile. Any recent info as to what R-33S really is, a nuke version of R-33 or an overall improvement of same, retaining a conventional warhead?
R-33S is the long range AAM produced only for the MiG-31B (BS) but in small number. This version got that canards for the better stability during low flying and it was designed to intercept then newly USAF stealth strategic very low flying cruise missiles AGM-129A ACM. R-33S also got new combined radio-optical proximity fuse and combined ARH+SARH in the terminal phase. About the warhead ,I don't think that it got nuclear warhead.
The original Izdeliye 300 (90s) is on display on the wall at the Vympel Museum - that's where that photo was taken.
Not seen any other photos of the Izdeliye 300 online - its not a public access museum AFAIK.
Of course, how much it has in common with Izdeliye 300M is unknown, but restarting work on a 1980s/90s design to replace your 1970s design in the 2020's is... an interesting choice.
Many current missiles remained mostly unchanged externally for decades, far more important being the advances in electronics and motors. So probably the same applies to the Izd. 300M, it might be externally roughly similar to the 1990s design, but the motors and electronics are much more advanced. At a minimum one would expect it to better the interim R-74M2 in most important areas.
Anyway, as a more general enquiry, still trying to figure out all the new Su-57 missiles which i think i've got pretty well, except one. What is the R-47? Some associate it with the short R-77-like AAM, about which others claim is just a section of the standard R-77 with a cap on, although i find it extremely strange that they would put that "section" right above the R-74M2 and probably what is the R-77-2 on the display stand shown few years back. So either that must be some kind of new AAM or Vympel went a considerably way to feed us some creative maskirovka.
Other than that, i think the other ones go like this, R-87 is the Izd. 180 and R-97 is the Izd. 810. R-74M2 is self-explanatory, to be replaced by Izd. 300M. Am i in the ballpark?
Many current missiles remained mostly unchanged externally for decades, far more important being the advances in electronics and motors. So probably the same applies to the Izd. 300M, it might be externally roughly similar to the 1990s design, but the motors and electronics are much more advanced. At a minimum one would expect it to better the interim R-74M2 in most important areas.
Anyway, as a more general enquiry, still trying to figure out all the new Su-57 missiles which i think i've got pretty well, except one. What is the R-47? Some associate it with the short R-77-like AAM, about which others claim is just a section of the standard R-77 with a cap on, although i find it extremely strange that they would put that "section" right above the R-74M2 and probably what is the R-77-2 on the display stand shown few years back. So either that must be some kind of new AAM or Vympel went a considerably way to feed us some creative maskirovka.
Other than that, i think the other ones go like this, R-87 is the Izd. 180 and R-97 is the Izd. 810. R-74M2 is self-explanatory, to be replaced by Izd. 300M. Am i in the ballpark?
The original Izdeliye 300 (90s) is on display on the wall at the Vympel Museum - that's where that photo was taken.
Not seen any other photos of the Izdeliye 300 online - its not a public access museum AFAIK.
Of course, how much it has in common with Izdeliye 300M is unknown, but restarting work on a 1980s/90s design to replace your 1970s design in the 2020's is... an interesting choice.
This is from one 'bmpd' article ( 2021 ) about the new Izdeliye 300M.
Программы НИОКР ГосМКБ «Вымпел» имени И.И. Торопова
''К основным новым работам в рамках ФПР стоит отнести работы по формированию облика перспективного изделия 300М, исследования баллистических характеристик изделий с комбинированными двигательными установками, а также экспериментальные оценки влияния изменений антенных решеток на основные характеристики радиолокационных головок самонаведения.''
The main new work within the FPR framework should include work on developing the appearance of the promising 300M product, and research into the ballistic characteristics of products with combined propulsion systems as well as experimental assessments of the impact of changes in antenna arrays on the main characteristics of radar homing heads.''
В корпоративной газете Вымпел АО Государственное машиностроительное конструкторское бюро Вымпел имени И.И. Торопова (АО ГосМКБ Вымпел им. И.И. Торопова) - ведущего российского предприятия в области разработки и производства…
bmpd.livejournal.com
So the Izdeliye 300M was in that time in developing phase.
Anyway, as a more general enquiry, still trying to figure out all the new Su-57 missiles which i think i've got pretty well, except one. What is the R-47? Some associate it with the short R-77-like AAM, about which others claim is just a section of the standard R-77 with a cap on, although i find it extremely strange that they would put that "section" right above the R-74M2 and probably what is the R-77-2 on the display stand shown few years back. So either that must be some kind of new AAM or Vympel went a considerably way to feed us some creative maskirovka.
Other than that, i think the other ones go like this, R-87 is the Izd. 180 and R-97 is the Izd. 810. R-74M2 is self-explanatory, to be replaced by Izd. 300M. Am i in the ballpark?
That is in turn based on a russian language post somewhere (i have saved that text but i can't find it now, need to look it up), which i believe is based on some diagram showing the Su-57 loadout which might have been official or semi-official, i think i might have seen that too, but it's been a while so i might not recall all the details correctly. Maybe @paralay@QuadroFX could help?
'' Су-57 има 5 нових ракета класе В-В и то су : Изделие 171-1 ( Р-77-2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха, Изделие 180 ( Р-87 ) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника, Изделие 270 ( Р-47) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 испод уводника ваздуха , Изделие 760 ( Р-74М2) макс 6 ком ,4 испод крила и 2 унутар подкрилних спремника и Изделие 810 ( Р-97) макс 10 ком ,4 испод крила,2 испод уводника ваздуха и 4 унутар трупних спремника. ''
It is in fact Serbian languge ( Serbian Cyrilic ) and that can be from the well known Serbian military forum ''My City Military''. I follow that forum and if I remember correctly, the main source of that information was 'Fighterbomber' on his page.
Yeah it is from Mycitymilitary. Do you remember anything about the graph/table i mentioned, or i remember things wrong? Perhaps it might have been posted on Fighterbomber's page.
Yeah it is from Mycitymilitary. Do you remember anything about the graph/table i mentioned, or i remember things wrong? Perhaps it might have been posted on Fighterbomber's page.
I will check that detail because the original source for those designations like R-47,R-87,R-97 is definitely Russian, I am 100% sure that was one of TG-channels. I must admit that I did not find official confirmation by e.g. KTRV/MKB Vimpel for that.
The original Izdeliye 300 (90s) is on display on the wall at the Vympel Museum - that's where that photo was taken.
Not seen any other photos of the Izdeliye 300 online - its not a public access museum AFAIK.
Of course, how much it has in common with Izdeliye 300M is unknown, but restarting work on a 1980s/90s design to replace your 1970s design in the 2020's is... an interesting choice.
From 16:15 we can see Izdeliye 270, from 16:35 we can see AKU-170Ye with the model of the Izdeliye 190 or R-77E ( for export only ), from 17:25 there is a red model of the Izdeliye 171-1 ( only for the Su-57) with 'windows' as parts of the wings.
SM2s are more or less unchanged from the 1950s Terrier in form factor and fins. The electronics have been updated, but the rocket motor hasn't changed since the 1980s.
SM2s are more or less unchanged from the 1950s Terrier in form factor and fins. The electronics have been updated, but the rocket motor hasn't changed since the 1980s.
If the Russians aren't using the seeker/motor etc from Izdeliye 300 then I guess the only advantage of using it is the overall configuration was already wind tunnel tested.
If the Russians aren't using the seeker/motor etc from Izdeliye 300 then I guess the only advantage of using it is the overall configuration was already wind tunnel tested.
Sorry it is not misinformation but fact. I mentioned earlier that those two photos are not made in 2007 but in 2019 and those are sequences from one TV-reportage made about 70th anniversary of the GosMKB 'Vympel'.
Now I have some details and questions for you if you don't mind ,tnx.
This photo is also made in 2019 during the visit of the Moscow's mayor Sergey Sobyanin to the Vympel.From the top to bottom we can see the following AAM's : Product 270, Product 750 and Product 171-1 with that specific windows in the wings.As we can see Product 270 is not only shorter then Product 171-1 but shorter then Product 750. As we know, R-73/74 has lenght about 3m,this Izd. 270 is maybe 2.5-2.7m long.The main question is, where are the wings on the Product 270 ?
Product 171-1( only for the Su-57) is the modified version of the operational and combat proven Product 170-1 and we can see here how much longer that AAM is in comparison with Product 270.
This is in fact sequence from the video ( documentary about Vympel ) posted earlier and we can see something unusual and very specific. The hole in the place where is the solid fuel rocket engine chamber.Also rocket engine has red color on its plating. All of this we can not see on the 'R-77 family' of AAM's ( R-77E or Product 190 for export and R-77-1 or Product 170-1 for the VKS/MA-VMF fighters). Am I right ?
So what we can see on those two sequencies from 2019 ? On the upper 'photo' we can see R-77E ( or maybe R-77-1L) as finished product and marked with the yellow line.In the upper corner we can also see another two R-77E/R-77-1. Now which AAM is marked with the blue line that is so much shorter than R-77E/R-77-1 and obviously w/o wings and with that red plating of the rocket engine chamber? It is of course Product 270. Lower photo shows us production line of the Izdeliye 270 with one on the trolley.
Now this modified photo shows us some details.Sections/blocks like radome ( cone),radar seeker ( of course completely new), then laser proximity fuse,warhead etc, on the frontal part and gas-generators with nozzle and that famous lattice foldable stabilisers on the rear part are from R-77E in fact.Between that two sections there is completely new solid fuel rocket engine chamber section where we can see something unusual and marked with the yellow arrow.Maybe, maybe it is some kind of mini-booster for the lateral maneuvering.All in all ,we can not see something like that on the R-77 family AAMs,that's for sure and of course there is no wings on the Product 270.
My opinion( assumption) is that Product 270 is developed for the long-term WVR aerial combat 'cause there is some Russian sources which mention new 'MD' AAM ( MD of course for 'Malaya Dalynost' or short range) with controlable flight time even 100sec. I think that AAM's like Product 750 and 760 are not capable of that.
P.S. I must find in my archive one interview from the Vympel revue ( dating back to 2019) with one of the younger constructors-engineers who told about Product 270.He said that after work on Izd 270 he was moved to work on the Izd 810.
Well, even assuming that for a second, why the heck would they put an unfinished missile on the same presentation rack with two brand new designs, the R-74M2 and R-77-2? I'm not leaning either way for now but it's really puzzling and frustrating getting a satisfactory answer. Maybe it's still some kind of CUDA like missile made from mostly off the shelf R-77 components to reduce costs etc.?
Export version of the R-37M /Izd. 610M known as Izd 620 has the same launch distances as R-37M. I don't know any of the exported AAM's that has less launch distances then the version used in Soviet/Russian AF.
Main differences between export version and the domestic version of one radar guided AAM is in the so called carrier or 'liter' frequencies. E.g. those used by active or semi-active radar seekers and of course by radio-proximity fuse.
If we talk about that so called 'max/min ranges' or better max/min authorised launch distances, we have three launch parameters: 'Dr max 1' or authorised launch distance against non-maneuvering air target. 'Dr max 2' as authorised launch distance against maneuverable air target and we have 'Dr min' as min authorised launch distance. Authorisation of course comes from the WCS. As we all know ,launch distances depend on many factors/parameters: speed/alt of the fighter and its target,angle aspect and hemisphere etc etc...
R-37M should have max launch distance in 'Dr max 1' parameter for engaging big /means bigger frontal RCS/ incoming air target of 400 kms ( should have). Note: record-breaking launch distance ever, was achieved on April 1994 during one exercise with test AAM type K-37/Izd 610 launched from the prototype MiG-31M number 057 blue.Launch distance was 304kms.
What we can see on that presentation is the export version of the R-37M ( Product 610M) ,maybe with the designation R-37ME also known as Product 620. That version can not be based on the old K-37 ( Product 610) because it was Soviet AAM with many components made in Ukraine. So R-37ME or whatever is downgraded version with only one data-link channel ( radio-correction channel in fact or mid-course update if you wish).
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