Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[NOMISYRRUC]

The information I have concerning Magnificent and Bonaventure in Canadian service indicate a peacetime crew of 1,200 and 1,370 wartime for both.

Likewise, HMAS Melbourne shows a ship's crew of 1,008 and an airwing of 347, for a total of 1,355.

Sidney listed 1,100 peacetime & 1,300 war (Korea) in aircraft carrier service. As fast transport her crew was 608, and as training ship 550.

For what it's worth that's similar to the information that I have, which came from editions of Jane's.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

From memory, Clemenceau crew was 1800

According to the following editions of Jane's Fighting Ships.

1954-55 it was 2,500.​

1955-56 to 1962-63 is was 2,700.​

1967-68 to 1969-70 it was 2,150 "revised figures".​

1972-73 to 1975-76 it was 2,239 (179 officers and 2,060 men).​

1976-77 it was 1,128 (65 officers and 1,163 men).​

1978-79 to 1980-81 it was 1,338 (64 officers and 1,274 men) fixed wing and 984 (45 officers and 939 men) helicopters.​

 

[uk 75]

Australia replaces Melbourne with land based aircraft, notably its F111s.
Canada and Netherlands used frigate based helicopters and P3 land based aircraft instead of carrier based S2 for their NATO roles.
Ark Royal gives the RN the CVA01 airgroup (F4, Buc, Gan AEW, Seaking) until 1979. Though in poor shape she did not have the teething trouble that a new design like CVA01 almost certainly would have done.
Assuming CVA01 had taken as long as Invincible to build and been laid down in 1967 she would have replaced a Phantomised Eagle in the mid 70s.
The impact of the costs of CVA01 would have meant from 1974 Eagle would probably have been scrapped.
Reliability of big RN ships has not been high so CVA01 might have had similar issues leading to long periods with no fixed wing RN airpower available.
Once CVA01 had been completed the RN would have still needed the T22 or similar in decent quantities to replace T12s. Assuming T82 had been built as a single trials ship at least 8 T42 would still have needed to be built to replace the Countys in the 80s.
A CVA01 based RN after 1975 would have faced similar issues to France's time with DeGaulle as its sole carrier.

 

[Archibald]

From memory, Clemenceau crew was 1800

According to the following editions of Jane's Fighting Ships.

1954-55 it was 2,500.​

1955-56 to 1962-63 is was 2,700.​

1967-68 to 1969-70 it was 2,150 "revised figures".​

1972-73 to 1975-76 it was 2,239 (179 officers and 2,060 men).​

1976-77 it was 1,128 (65 officers and 1,163 men).​

1978-79 to 1980-81 it was 1,338 (64 officers and 1,274 men) fixed wing and 984 (45 officers and 939 men) helicopters.​

Why such wild variations from one Jane's to another ? What does Tarzan thinks about it ?

Note that by adding all the numbers and dividing them (I'm loosy at statistics, just like accounting, tried once, nearly lost my brain)

(2700+2500+2150+2239+1128+1338+984)/7 = 1863 so not too far from 1800.

Not sure it is a very rationale calculation, however.


Maybe some random guy before or after Wikipedia checked Jane's (don't tell that to Tarzan !), found all those diverging numbers and says "the hell with it" - did same calculations as my little self - and then rounded to the lower number and...

Tadaaaaaaa ! 1800 crew !

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

What does Tarzan thinks about it ?

"I wish I hadn't done the Bo Derek film!"

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

From memory, Clemenceau crew was 1800

According to the following editions of Jane's Fighting Ships.

1954-55 it was 2,500.​

1955-56 to 1962-63 is was 2,700.​

1967-68 to 1969-70 it was 2,150 "revised figures".​

1972-73 to 1975-76 it was 2,239 (179 officers and 2,060 men).​

1976-77 it was 1,128 (65 officers and 1,163 men).​

1978-79 to 1980-81 it was 1,338 (64 officers and 1,274 men) fixed wing and 984 (45 officers and 939 men) helicopters.​

Why such wild variations from one Jane's to another ? What does Tarzan thinks about it ?

Note that by adding all the numbers and dividing them (I'm loosy at statistics, just like accounting, tried once, nearly lost my brain)

(2700+2500+2150+2239+1128+1338+984)/7 = 1863 so not too far from 1800.

Not sure it is a very rationale calculation, however.


Maybe some random guy before or after Wikipedia checked Jane's (don't tell that to Tarzan !), found all those diverging numbers and says "the hell with it" - did same calculations as my little self - and then rounded to the lower number and...

Tadaaaaaaa ! 1800 crew !

Wholly irrational Batman!

​

 

[Archibald]

Ah, not far. Still, you are using my methodology, kind of. You add the Jane's number and divides by the number of year. See ? we are thinking alike.

 

[Archibald]

What does Tarzan thinks about it ?

"I wish I hadn't done the Bo Derek film!"

Beau derrick, Bo Derek !

View: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4hk4xc


"And this is another monument scale model I build using matches and glue. It's a derrick, and do you know how we called it ? beau derrick ! Because of the american actress, Bo Derek ! Beau derrick, bo derek, beau derrick ! We laughed so much at the office with that joke...!"

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Ah, not far. Still, you are using my methodology, kind of. You add the Jane's number and divides by the number of year. See ? we are thinking alike.

Sighs like Spot the Cat. Then groans like Lurch as played by Ted Cassidy. Finally, bangs head on a wall like Yosser Hughes.

I don't want to spend half an hour writing a Peter & Jane explanation. Therefore, I respectfully ask you to listen with great care to this gentleman's explanation.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDev4g-cXCA
​

 

[starviking]

I gots the withdrawal symptoms bad…

Any more instalments of this most excellent alternative history on the horizon?

 

[SSgtC]

I gots the withdrawal symptoms bad…

Any more instalments of this most excellent alternative history on the horizon?

Eventually, yes. I've had pretty bad writers block lately on all my stuff. It's not just this that's suffering.

 

[Archibald]

Dang. Take care of yourself. Real life first, as usual.

 

[SSgtC]

Dang. Take care of yourself. Real life first, as usual.

Thanks. Just haven't been feeling the creative juices of late. It took me almost 2 months just to write a single 3400 word chapter for one of my ASOIAF fanfics. So yeah, slow going.

 

[isayyo2]

Dang. Take care of yourself. Real life first, as usual.

Thanks. Just haven't been feeling the creative juices of late. It took me almost 2 months just to write a single 3400 word chapter for one of my ASOIAF fanfics. So yeah, slow going.

Have you considered using a Chat AI to assist in your writing? It sounds a bit nutty but ChatGPT-4 can produce some excellent pieces with the right amount of shepherding.

I finally broke a decade long + streak of writers block and procrastination to produce my first piece of coherent fan-fiction. It's a Halo-Mass Effect crossover just over 24,000 words now, with around 75% generated byChatGPT-4. The grammar is pretty decent too, though I run my chapters through Word and Grammarly for the fine details.

 

[SSgtC]

Dang. Take care of yourself. Real life first, as usual.

Thanks. Just haven't been feeling the creative juices of late. It took me almost 2 months just to write a single 3400 word chapter for one of my ASOIAF fanfics. So yeah, slow going.

Have you considered using a Chat AI to assist in your writing? It sounds a bit nutty but ChatGPT-4 can produce some excellent pieces with the right amount of shepherding.

I finally broke a decade long + streak of writers block and procrastination to produce my first piece of coherent fan-fiction. It's a Halo-Mass Effect crossover just over 24,000 words now, with around 75% generated byChatGPT-4. The grammar is pretty decent too, though I run my chapters through Word and Grammarly for the fine details.

I've thought about it, but I'm really trying to improve my writing so I can work on my own original fiction and, eventually, try to get published

 

[starviking]

Any more instalments of this most excellent alternative history on the horizon?

Eventually, yes. I've had pretty bad writers block lately on all my stuff. It's not just this that's suffering.

I hope you can get your mojo back!

 

[GTX]

Have you considered using a Chat AI to assist in your writing? It sounds a bit nutty but ChatGPT-4 can produce some excellent pieces with the right amount of shepherding.

I finally broke a decade long + streak of writers block and procrastination to produce my first piece of coherent fan-fiction. It's a Halo-Mass Effect crossover just over 24,000 words now, with around 75% generated byChatGPT-4. The grammar is pretty decent too, though I run my chapters through Word and Grammarly for the fine details.

that feels like cheating and would demean the value of the work here.

 

[isayyo2]

that feels like cheating and would demean the value of the work here.

To each their own mate

Alright, back on topic

Was cruising through Friedman's Amphibious Ships and Craft to come across the proposed second-generation Essex class conversions! An SCB-125 converted to carry half a battalion and a decent amount of strike craft. I'm surprised there's enough room for helicopters and jets, presumably A-4s and CH-46s, + converted berthing space for at least two companies of Marines.

 

[SSgtC]

that feels like cheating and would demean the value of the work here.

To each their own mate

Alright, back on topic

Was cruising through Friedman's Amphibious Ships and Craft to come across the proposed second-generation Essex class conversions! An SCB-125 converted to carry half a battalion and a decent amount of strike craft. I'm surprised there's enough room for helicopters and jets, presumably A-4s and CH-46s, + converted berthing space for at least two companies of Marines.

View attachment 698935

Well, with the drastically reduced air wing, you could convert a lot of the berthing spaces previously used by the embarked air group into Marine Barracks. And with the simplified number of types on board, you could also cut down on some of the maintenance shops as well.

 

[isayyo2]

Well, with the drastically reduced air wing, you could convert a lot of the berthing spaces previously used by the embarked air group into Marine Barracks. And with the simplified number of types on board, you could also cut down on some of the maintenance shops as well.

Right, on the "austere" LPH conversion a two-deck berthing arraignment was constructed in the forward hanger space.

I'm almost more curious how this proposed LPV conversion would affect the LHA and LHD programs down the line. Even with Harriers, an angle deck would be beneficial by providing additional landing spots right?

 

[Archibald]

I like the direction this takes...

 

[isayyo2]

I like the direction this takes...

Right?

You could fold in the LHA and CVV programs into some 60k ton hybrid malaise monster Have an airwing of ~30 AV-16s + the nominal lift compliment for the embarked battalion and OV-10s for fun. A well deck is needed for cargo/personal transfer.

 

[Archibald]

The last amphibs at 45 000 tons are getting close. They are larger than CdG ! But AV-16 sucked, I'd prefer Convair 200 any time, any day. Plus a massive "Big Wing" Harrier upgrade in the attack role.

 

[lordroel]

I gots the withdrawal symptoms bad…

Any more instalments of this most excellent alternative history on the horizon?

Eventually, yes. I've had pretty bad writers block lately on all my stuff. It's not just this that's suffering.

Well take your time.

 

[Cjc]

Something interesting I found while crawling around jstor consdering were still on the west guinea war.

Shibboleth Authentication Request

Aperintly there was a major oil find in West guinea that the duch government didn't know about at the time.

 

[BlackBat242]

Something interesting I found while crawling around jstor consdering were still on the west guinea war.

Shibboleth Authentication Request

Aperintly there was a major oil find in West guinea that the duch government didn't know about at the time.

For those of us without a JSTOR account?

 

[Cjc]

For those of us without a JSTOR account?

Well you can get a free account for like 100 free articles a month, but it's gust what I said, major oil find in West Papua, would have covered bascly the interly of the Netherlands oil demand for several decades, was discovered by a "joint" us-duch oil company (60%American 40% shell) was discovered in like 1939 but was keeped from the Dutch half of the company (and from there to the Dutch government) at first simply because the was a glut of oil at the time and the Americans didn't want yet a Nother oil find in the news. then ww2 happened were the Japanese also discovered the oil but had no way of exploiting it so didn't much care. Then the Americans keeped the find secret after the war aperintly because they felt the Indonesians would make for much better partners then the Dutch would, they also didn't tell the us government. Personally this all sounds really cosperatoralist to me but the oil find at lest was real enough.

 

[lordroel]

Something interesting I found while crawling around jstor consdering were still on the west guinea war.

Shibboleth Authentication Request

Aperintly there was a major oil find in West guinea that the duch government didn't know about at the time.

Even with a oil field in Dutch Guinia, it will take years to start getting out of the ground.

 

[Cjc]

Even with a oil field in Dutch Guinia, it will take years to start getting out of the ground.

Took until 1963 in OTL I think. But they also didn't start working on it until the site came under indonesia control.

 

[BlackBat242]

Took until 1963 in OTL I think. But they also didn't start working on it until the site came under indonesia control.

Dutch New Guinea wasn't under Indonesian control until May 1963. It was under Dutch control until October 1962, when it was placed under UN control.

 

[F.L.]

I like the direction this takes...

Some time ago I found images on the net of a what if model of the USS Lake Champlain (or another SCB-27) converted into a Harrier carrier. Unfortunately, I hadn't downloaded them and I can't find them.
Has anyone ever seen them ?

 

[Archibald]

Can't remember, is the C-14 internal combustion catapult (ICC) part of the story so far ? it was one fine piece of technology, a potential game changer for smaller carriers.
I can see a SCB-125B upgrade to integrate that catapult into Essex carriers.

 

[SSgtC]

Can't remember, is the C-14 internal combustion catapult (ICC) part of the story so far ? it was one fine piece of technology, a potential game changer for smaller carriers.
I can see a SCB-125B upgrade to integrate that catapult into Essex carriers.

Not yet. Or rather, it technically is as Enterprise (and in this time line, her sister America) were ordered with the C14. But it hasn't been explicitly mentioned yet

 

[Archibald]

You are the one that made me aware of this interesting tech - so I had to ask. Can't help thinking it would make a ton of sense in your TL, for many varied carriers.
As I type this, I just realized something.
That ICC catapult is essentially rocket stuff - after all, Reaction Motors was a rocket company, the one that delivered the engines from X-1 to X-15.
Well the Soviets are better at rocketry than naval matters, notably aircraft carriers.
Sooo (drums rolling) what if the Soviets became aware of the C-14 and it changed OTL (mostly negative) carrier paradigm for them ?
I can see Chelomei being tasked with copying the C-14, as he was familiar with the Soviet Navy: having started as an antiship missile manufacturer.
End result: an ICC on the Kiev class carriers, and screw that Yak-38 Forger piece of shit.

 

[SSgtC]

Honestly? Doubtful. The Kiev class were steam powered. If the Soviets wanted to use them for CATOBAR operations, they could have easily installed steam cats on her. But they had a different use case for their carriers than NATO did. Not to mention that the control system for the C14 was more than a little wonky.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Well the Soviets are better at rocketry than naval matters, notably aircraft carriers.
Sooo (drums rolling) what if the Soviets became aware of the C-14 and it changed OTL (mostly negative) carrier paradigm for them ?
I can see Chelomei being tasked with copying the C-14, as he was familiar with the Soviet Navy: having started as an antiship missile manufacturer.
End result: an ICC on the Kiev class carriers, and screw that Yak-38 Forger piece of shit.

If the Soviets wanted a CATOBAR carrier they may well have built something like the Project 1160 Orel in place of the Kiev-class.

 

[Archibald]

This is the fate of Reprisal according to the NavSource website.

• Fate: Construction of Reprisal was cancelled on August 12, 1945 when 52.3 percent complete. Launched in 1945 without ceremony to clear the slipway, her hull was utilized in experimental work in the Chesapeake Bay from 1946–48 (mostly to do with bomb damage in magazines). Although inspected during January 1949 with a view to completing her as an attack carrier, the plan was dropped and her hulk was sold on August 2, 1949 to Boston Metals Co., Baltimore, Md. She was scrapped starting in November 1949. (Source: DANFS, Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, located on the Naval Historical Center website. Special thanks to Ron Reeves, who provided additional information.)

Aircraft Carrier Photo Index: REPRISAL (CV-35)

This is the fate of Iwo Jima according to the NavSource website.

• Fate: Iwo Jima was cancelled August 12, 1945. Her partially completed hull was scrapped. (Source: DANFS, Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, located on the Naval Historical Center website.)

Aircraft Carrier Photo Index: IWO JIMA (CV-46)

Friedman said Reprisal was 40% complete at cancellation which was on 11.08.45 and in common with NavSource he didn't say how complete Iwo Jima was at cancellation.

What if the Navy had used the Korean War as a ploy / pretext to finish CV-35 Reprisal ?

 

[F.L.]

What if the Navy had used the Korean War as a ploy / pretext to finish CV-35 Reprisal ?

Sadly, the Reprisal have been sold for scrap in 1949.

 

[SSgtC]

What if the Navy had used the Korean War as a ploy / pretext to finish CV-35 Reprisal ?

That decision would have to have been made a year before Korea kicked off. The best way to save her (and/or Iwo Jima) would be to make the decision to finish her to the same standard as Oriskany some time in 1946/47.

 

[Archibald]

Although inspected during January 1949 with a view to completing her as an attack carrier, the plan was dropped and her hulk was sold on August 2, 1949

Let's say the inspection (and sale) is postponed long enough, the Korean war saves the ship. That's what I had in mind.