Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[bobtdwarf]

The thing about SeaDart is it is liquid fueled and from what I can gather the way the unit is sealed long term horizontal storage would lead to it leaking... they stored them just fine with no fuel in them horizontally.. but the ready to launch birds had to be vertical after fueling.

Maybe spend a little time and money fixing the sealing issue so you can launch from a horizontal magazine like the Terriers?

Terrier was solid fueled though, not liquid. To get Sea Dart to ditch the liquid fuel, you'd have to get rid of the Ramjet and go with just a straight rocket.

But Talos was liquid fueled in the ramjet second stage and also stored horizontally... I used Terrier because that was what was used on the US CV's. I have no idea if Talos had a leakage problem though, but the USN is just allergic to fires as the RN so I would hazard a guess that they didn't.

 

[Volkodav]

In fairness to CVA-01, she would be operating significantly larger aircraft than those Essex airwings (Phantoms and Buccaneers versus Crusaders and Skyhawks/Corsairs), as well as the fact that both the Essexes and Midways were somewhat overstuffed with aircraft in those configurations.

No argument here. Just wanted to point out that, for her size, she was planned to have an extremely small air wing. 50 total aircraft, with only 36 usable for strike or A2A roles. For the era when she would be entering service, she would be significantly under-armed in terms of air wing.

I'm assuming that the small size of the air wing was done intentionally for two reasons: first, save money on not having to buy an extra 30+ aircraft for the two carriers. And second, that the FAA assumed aircraft sizes would continue to grow and CVA-01 would have the space to board the next generation of aircraft and still keep 50 planes in her air wing.

The RN also worked hard on sortie rates, i.e. getting aircraft up quicker and more often. Very necessary with their smaller carriers and smaller totals of aircraft.

 

[Archibald]

Penny pinching...

I'm assuming that the small size of the air wing was done intentionally for two reasons: first, save money on not having to buy an extra 30+ aircraft for the two carriers.

What's more expensive, F-4K & Buccs or the carrier(s) to support them ?

 

[zen]

Packing decks to the limits doesn't make traffic management on those decks easier. Less results in faster movement and more adaptable to unforseen changes.

 

[SSgtC]

Packing decks to the limits doesn't make traffic management on those decks easier. Less results in faster movement and more adaptable to unforseen changes.

True, to a point. But a lot of it depends on how the Navy in question operates their carriers and air wings. The USN seemed to generate an ungodly number of stories from their Essex and Midway classes, despite how stuffed to the gills they were

 

[CV12Hornet]

That said, it's also telling that ever since Vietnam the Navy has been trending to proportionally less space taken up on its carriers.

 

[SSgtC]

That said, it's also telling that ever since Vietnam the Navy has been trending to proportionally less space taken up on its carriers.

I think a lot of that is cost savings though. The Navy first landed one of the light attack squadrons and replaced them with an antisubmarine squadron (I believe they also downsized from a full RVAH squadron to a detachment). Then the Intruders were retired without replacement and their role given to the F-14D. Then another VFA squadron was landed. Then the VS squadrons were diseastablished. All in the name of cost savings and lowering the Navy's requirements to keep the fighter gap manageable.

To me it's interesting to note that there have been calls by senior Naval Aviators to return to 5 strike-fighter squadrons per air wing because the current format of 4 per air wing is seriously over-stressing the squadrons and leaving them vulnerable due to being, basically, jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. In other words, they're ok at all their missions, but they're not really great at any of them.

 

[lordroel]

Packing decks to the limits doesn't make traffic management on those decks easier. Less results in faster movement and more adaptable to unforseen changes.

Like a parked fighter launching its air to air missile by mistake hitting a other parked fighter.

 

[zen]

Packing decks to the limits doesn't make traffic management on those decks easier. Less results in faster movement and more adaptable to unforseen changes.

Like a parked fighter launching its air to air missile by mistake hitting a other parked fighter.

More like to get aircraft A to the lift and down to a free maintenance spot. Aircrafts B, C, D, E, F, G and mobile crane 2 all have to be moved....one slot at a time as there's only one free slot available.
Like some giant kids sliding tile puzzle, were to make the picture and slide that last tile into the right place, you have move every other tile.

Wereas if you had more free slots, you could move multiple aircraft at once or even....whisper it in hushed tones of awe....just have clear gangways so only the actual aircraft in question needs to move....

 

[Archibald]

Packing decks to the limits doesn't make traffic management on those decks easier. Less results in faster movement and more adaptable to unforseen changes.

Like a parked fighter launching its air to air missile by mistake hitting a other parked fighter.

USS Forrestal and the late John McCain approve - and shudder thinking about the horror.

 

[SSgtC]

Packing decks to the limits doesn't make traffic management on those decks easier. Less results in faster movement and more adaptable to unforseen changes.

Like a parked fighter launching its air to air missile by mistake hitting a other parked fighter.

More like to get aircraft A to the lift and down to a free maintenance spot. Aircrafts B, C, D, E, F, G and mobile crane 2 all have to be moved....one slot at a time as there's only one free slot available.
Like some giant kids sliding tile puzzle, were to make the picture and slide that last tile into the right place, you have move every other tile.

Wereas if you had more free slots, you could move multiple aircraft at once or even....whisper it in hushed tones of awe....just have clear gangways so only the actual aircraft in question needs to move....

Even at their most crowded, USN decks were never that bad. What you're describing is a carrier being deck-locked, unable to conduct operations because they have too many aircraft onboard. Even at their most crowded, USN decks never got more than 75-85% full. The Essex class were the worst of the lot, and even they never got over 86% or so of the available "slots" being full.

 

[Pioneer]

Remind me again why the Dutch F-84Fs aren't also in the picture here? We have Hunters on their way but the Thunderstreaks would also provide a useful complement for non-carrier based platforms:

Moreover, when one applies some range circles and includes the possible use of the following airbases (mostly allied but quite conceivable): RAAF Darwin, RAF Singapore, Kuala Lumpur & Butterworth + possibly Christmas Island, Dili & Labuan you get the following:

For Hunters (I forgot Christmas Island on this one):

View attachment 670713

For F-84Fs:

View attachment 670714

Interesting GTX, but I wonder how the F-84F's would have performed in the heat/tropics, as they were already notorious for their sluggish runway performance.....


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

Huh. I was under the impression that the H-8 was not strong enough to launch an FJ-4B. Or at least not with anything even approaching a useful bomb load. I know Melbourne, when she was equipped with A-4s, only used them in an A2A role because the BS4 she was equipped with couldn't launch a Skyhawk when it was bombed up and I assumed that the Doorman would be similar given that the A-4E only had a MTOW that was a thousand pounds higher than the FJ-4 (and the Skyhawk had a much larger wing)

A fully bombed-up A-4F Skyhawk (the model the Australian birds were modified from), while 3000 lbs lighter than a bombed-up FJ-4, has about the same stall speed on takeoff, which means in practice the differences in takeoff performance are surprisingly small.

Argentina could fly Skyhawks off of Karel Doorman without unduly modifying her catapult equipment, but the Argentine A-4Q was based on the A-4B, which was another 3000 lbs lighter than the A-4F.

If the Dutch want a new fighter, fast, that's an improvement over the Sea Hawk, their best bet is probably the Cougar. It can't carry as many bombs as far as the Fury, but it's better than nothing and is actually flyable off Karel Doorman. The Argentines did it with Indepencia, thanks to the Cougar being surprisingly gentle on takeoff for a swept-wing jet.

CV12Hornet
Our naval aviation never operates the F9F from the ARA Independencia, with regularity. (Colossu class with the original cat) Catapult did not have enough power.
Only one pilot do a landing on it
This is the only phot of the F9F on Independencia
I would have liked this image to be the normality.
I almost sure that the Karel, with her BS4, could operarted the F9F and Fj-4.
We almost launch and attack (falklands / malvinas war) with A-4Q from the ARA 25 de Mayo former KD) : the load was set: 6 x 227 snake eyes and 2 x1300lts drops tanks.
Due to the lack of wind and the top speed of 20 knots of the aircraft carrier, the load of the aircraft began to decrease, until it reached a point where the attack was cancel.

Whilst on the subject of Grumman F9F vs NAA FJ-4, I always found this snippet of information intriguing, and I wouldn't have thought:

“The F9F was known to be highly maneuverable and easy to fly.[7] Corky Meyer, who flew both the F9F Cougar and North American FJ-3 Fury, noted that compared to the latter the Cougar had a higher dive speed limit (Mach 1.2 vs Mach 1), a higher maneuvering limit of 7.5-g (compared to 6-g), and greater endurance.

"[The] Combat Air patrol mission was for two hours on station at 150 nm from the carrier. This required 2+30 takeoff, cruise, and landing endurance plus reserves. The F9F-6 could perform a three-hour CAP mission on internal fuel. The FJ-2 and -3 with external tanks had less that 1+30 mission time and the FJ-4 just met the mission requirement."[23]

The F9F Cougar was also a capable multi-role aircraft, which may explain why it was deployed less often than dedicated fighters.[23] In spite of engine problems that plagued the FJ-3, it was deployed for a longer period than the F9F Cougar. This was more likely attributable to the fact the F9F had an attack role that was being superseded by new jets such as A4D-1 Skyhawk, rather than any deficiency as a fighter.

"The reason the FJ-3 was deployed a little longer and a little more often (19 times vs 16) in fighter squadrons than the F9F-8 probably wasn't because it was the better fighter. More likely it was because it has a minimal capability as an attack aircraft, whereas the F9F-8 was good for that too, including nuclear weapon delivery. In effect the F9F-8 was a jet attack placeholder along with the F7U-M, while the pipeline was being filled with the FJ-4Bs and A4Ds. As a result, the FJ-3 was the designated day fighter by default on most deployments."

(Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F-9_Cougar)


Regards
Pioneer

 

[SSgtC]

March 4, 1959
South China Sea

Captain Blackburn looked over his evening reports with mild concern. Midway was supposed to have started for home over a week ago. Instead, they had been ordered to remain in WESTPAC and shadow a Red Navy surface fleet. He had hoped that the fleet would head straight for the Philippine Sea and Indonesia. There were four other carriers operating down there and the strain on his own command would have been lessened considerably. At least until the shooting started, which was likely in that scenario. But by then, no one would care about the strain since they would have been locked in on performing their missions.

But they hadn't. Instead, they had conducted gunnery exercises in the Sea of Japan, exercised with the Chinese Navy, such as it was, in the East China Sea and were now conducting more gunnery training in the South China Sea. He had a sneaking suspicion that the Soviets were doing their damndest to draw the attention of the NATO navies away from Indonesia. He had a pretty good idea why, but then, so did everyone else above and below him in the chain of command. That was why he was all out here on his lonesome instead of with other decks to back him up.

Though truth be told, his mission wasn't what had him worried this evening. His main concern at the moment was Soviet submarines. He had seen the fleet message that had been sent out this morning. A Red Fleet boat had managed to penetrate the screen of Task Force 77.1 and conduct a successful simulated torpedo attack on Albion. And that was with Yorktown and the planes of her dedicated anti-submarine air group with the fleet. He had no such protection.

The surface forces he was shadowing, he wasn't overly concerned with them. He had the air assets to kill any Soviet attack in the cradle and the speed to keep enough distance between them to prevent the Reds from mobbing him. Well, he had the means to prevent it as long as he could keep at least one of his Guppys in the air and monitoring their movements. He only had four of the heavily modified Skyraiders on board and keeping one on station monitoring the Soviets full time was becoming difficult. The maintenance situation of the Early Elevens was even worse when you considered the fact that they often had to keep a second aircraft and crew airborne in the other direction to watch for Soviet snoopers and raids using his ship for training.

Already the Crusaders of the Fighting Checkmates had seen off more than half a dozen snoopers. They had also made sure they were in every photograph of his carrier by positioning themselves between the Soviet recon planes that had shown up and his own ship. He smiled when he thought of how frustrated the Soviet intelligence officers must be when a Crusader showed up in every one of their photos of his ship. His photo recon Crusaders had been busy too. He had some excellent shots of the Soviet Cruisers and Destroyers at sea. His own intelligence analysts were pouring over those photos to glean any information that they could from them.

While playing games with the Soviets was certainly fun, he was ready to head home. His ship was ready to head home. And his crew was ready to head home. They were unhappy at their cruise being extended. He couldn't blame them. But at least they weren't the poor bastards on Ticonderoga that had been turned around damn near in sight of Alameda. He would have a quiet word with the XO later this evening about keeping the men on their toes through some extra training.

 

[SSgtC]

March 7, 1959
Alameda Naval Air Station, CA, USA

USS Oriskany recommissions after completion of her SCB-125A refit. She had two months of sea trials and post trials shipyard availability ahead of her before she could once again claim her place in the fleet. Once she had been passed her sea trials and any issues discovered were repaired by the shipyard, Oriskany would head south to her new homeport at North Island Naval Air Station. She would have ten months to work back into fighting trim before she was scheduled to deploy in May, 1960.

 

[BlackBat242]

Whilst on the subject of Grumman F9F vs NAA FJ-4, I always found this snippet of information intriguing, and I wouldn't have thought:

.....

Regards
Pioneer

The FJ-4B was in front-line service until 1962 (year of its last carrier deployment, aboard USS Hancock CVA-19), and with the reserves for a few more years.

A radar-equipped night fighter version of the two-seat F9F-8T (TF-9J after Nov 1962) was proposed by Grumman in 1955. It was to have carried an AN/APQ-50 radar and was to have been equipped with an all-missile armament. However, the performance was considered insufficient to warrant production.

In 1961, Grumman proposed a modernized version of the F9F-8T with updated systems and a Pratt & Whitney J52 turbojet in place of the J48. However, the Navy selected the Douglas TA-4F instead, and the updated two-seat Cougar project was abandoned.

Now, what would replacing the Pratt & Whitney J48-P-8A turbojet (rated at 7,250 lb.s.t. dry and 8,500 lb.s.t. with water injection for take-off only) with a Pratt & Whitney J52-P-8A turbojet (rated at 9,300 lb.s.t) or even a J52-P-6A (8,500 lb.s.t. dry) do for performance (climb rate, top speed, etc)?

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

 

[Pioneer]

Whilst on the subject of Grumman F9F vs NAA FJ-4, I always found this snippet of information intriguing, and I wouldn't have thought:

.....

Regards
Pioneer

A radar-equipped night fighter version of the two-seat F9F-8T (TF-9J after Nov 1962) was proposed by Grumman in 1955. It was to have carried an AN/APQ-50 radar and was to have been equipped with an all-missile armament.

Do you have any drawing/artwork of this proposed night fighter version BlacBat242??

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

The APQ-50 was already flying on the F4D Skyray, which buried any Panther / Cougar derivative, performance-wise.

 

[CV12Hornet]

The APQ-50 was already flying on the F4D Skyray, which buried any Panther / Cougar derivative, performance-wise.

And quite a few pilots who couldn't manage its wonky handling.

 

[isayyo2]

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

While this is a good idea, especially for the trainers, did we not just learn that all carrier fighters that aren’t Crusaders are just too slow to safely intercept those missile laden bombers?

 

[Archibald]

The APQ-50 was already flying on the F4D Skyray, which buried any Panther / Cougar derivative, performance-wise.

And quite a few pilots who couldn't manage its wonky handling.

Couldn't be worse that the Vought Cutlass. Now THAT was a flying coffin...

 

[SSgtC]

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

While this is a good idea, especially for the trainers, did we not just learn that all carrier fighters that aren’t Crusaders are just too slow to safely intercept those missile laden bombers?

Yup. They can conduct a successful intercept. But only if they are stationed in the general vicinity of an inbound raid while flying BARCAP. At least a Crusader can punch in afterburner and haul ass to where it's needed and be able to conduct an intercept without being perfectly positioned first.

 

[isayyo2]

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

While this is a good idea, especially for the trainers, did we not just learn that all carrier fighters that aren’t Crusaders are just too slow to safely intercept those missile laden bombers?

Yup. They can conduct a successful intercept. But only if they are stationed in the general vicinity of an inbound raid while flying BARCAP. At least a Crusader can punch in afterburner and haul ass to where it's needed and be able to conduct an intercept without being perfectly positioned first.

This obviously means we need the Super Tiger as a short-term supersonic gap filler while Crusader and Phantom production ramps up

 

[SSgtC]

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

While this is a good idea, especially for the trainers, did we not just learn that all carrier fighters that aren’t Crusaders are just too slow to safely intercept those missile laden bombers?

Yup. They can conduct a successful intercept. But only if they are stationed in the general vicinity of an inbound raid while flying BARCAP. At least a Crusader can punch in afterburner and haul ass to where it's needed and be able to conduct an intercept without being perfectly positioned first.

This obviously means we need the Super Tiger as a short-term supersonic gap filler while Crusader and Phantom production ramps up

Crusaders are already in the fleet. Super Tigers would actually take longer to get to VF squadrons than Crusaders would. Not to mention, there are two squadrons of F8Us in theater right now. Just not with force in the Philippine Sea. VF-211 on Midway and VF-142 on Ranger are both equipped with F8U-1s. Likewise, both carrier's photo recon detachments are flying F8U-1Ps

 

[JWilly]

February 20, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

After the inevitable delays, the HNLMS Karel Doorman departs Den Helder Naval Base bound for the Pacific. Along with the Doorman, the Royal Netherlands Navy was also sending the light cruiser De Ruyter and the Friesland class destroyers Limburg, Groningen, Drenthe and Utrecht. The light cruiser would provide heavy shore bombardment and anti-surface firepower if needed while the four destroyers would use their 120mm guns to provide anti-air defense, along with their heavy anti-submarine armament to defend the carrier from underwater attacks.

After much discussion, it was decided to send the carrier around the Cape of Good Hope instead of through the Suez Canal. Serious concerns had been aired that the Egyptians may refuse them use of the canal. However, the added distance would cause issues with the endurance of the ships of the force. A decision had to be made with regards to the speed at which the task force would sail.

The Doorman had a normal cruising speed of fourteen knots, and at that speed, she could sail easily steam from Amsterdam to Fremantle nonstop. However, the voyage would take more than thirty days at that speed. Several options had been considered to solve the issue. The first option that had been brought up was to steam at eighteen knots, make a port visit at Cape Town in South Africa to top off the ships of the task force, then steam at twenty-five knots to Fremantle. Including the twenty-four hour stop in Cape Town, the task force could reach Australia in twenty-three days.

The second option would be to employ the turbine tanker Mijdrecht, which the Navy had been planning to charter anyway for the goodwill cruise to the United States, and use her as an underway replenishment ship. The task force could then sail at twenty-five knots all the way to Fremantle, only slowing to conduct refueling operations, and reach the Southwest Pacific in only twenty days.

Ultimately, operational considerations won out and the ships would steam to Cape Town in South Africa first, followed by a a high speed transit to Fremantle. The primary reason for the decision was concern over Indonesian submarines in the area. Indonesia had recently purchased several Whiskey class boats from the Soviet Union and the first had just entered service. By sailing first to Cape Town, it would allow the two Cannon class ships that had deployed on the thirteenth time to sanitize the approaches to Fremantle and join up with the carrier after to improve her anti-submarine defenses even further.

As an added precaution, the tanker Mijdrecht was also hired to sail with the task force to Fremantle to ensure none of the destroyers would run dry on fuel during the high speed transit. The entire task force would arrive in Fremantle on March fifteenth.

In OTL, the Dutch operated Nike Ajax batteries in West Germany and Netherlands. Those batteries began conversion to Nike Hercules in late 1958 or in 1959. The removed Nike Ajax equipment went into storage somewhere, AFAIK.

A complication was that some parts of the Nike Ajax system were carried over for Nike Hercules, so the systems put into storage were not complete.

A further complication was that neither Nike Ajax throughout its service life, nor Nike Hercules throughout most of its service life, was in any way mobile or readily transported. Both required significant specialized concrete-and-precision-steel infrastructure for the launchers and radars; extensive and complex cabling over at least thousands of feet; and significant electronics facilities.

But, a difficult capability is better than no capability.

Would the Dutch ask USA regarding possibly available Nike batteries, and their other strategic partners regarding their respective SAM systems, to have some sort of SAM capability sold to them that then could be shipped to the action zone?

 

[SSgtC]

February 20, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

After the inevitable delays, the HNLMS Karel Doorman departs Den Helder Naval Base bound for the Pacific. Along with the Doorman, the Royal Netherlands Navy was also sending the light cruiser De Ruyter and the Friesland class destroyers Limburg, Groningen, Drenthe and Utrecht. The light cruiser would provide heavy shore bombardment and anti-surface firepower if needed while the four destroyers would use their 120mm guns to provide anti-air defense, along with their heavy anti-submarine armament to defend the carrier from underwater attacks.

After much discussion, it was decided to send the carrier around the Cape of Good Hope instead of through the Suez Canal. Serious concerns had been aired that the Egyptians may refuse them use of the canal. However, the added distance would cause issues with the endurance of the ships of the force. A decision had to be made with regards to the speed at which the task force would sail.

The Doorman had a normal cruising speed of fourteen knots, and at that speed, she could sail easily steam from Amsterdam to Fremantle nonstop. However, the voyage would take more than thirty days at that speed. Several options had been considered to solve the issue. The first option that had been brought up was to steam at eighteen knots, make a port visit at Cape Town in South Africa to top off the ships of the task force, then steam at twenty-five knots to Fremantle. Including the twenty-four hour stop in Cape Town, the task force could reach Australia in twenty-three days.

The second option would be to employ the turbine tanker Mijdrecht, which the Navy had been planning to charter anyway for the goodwill cruise to the United States, and use her as an underway replenishment ship. The task force could then sail at twenty-five knots all the way to Fremantle, only slowing to conduct refueling operations, and reach the Southwest Pacific in only twenty days.

Ultimately, operational considerations won out and the ships would steam to Cape Town in South Africa first, followed by a a high speed transit to Fremantle. The primary reason for the decision was concern over Indonesian submarines in the area. Indonesia had recently purchased several Whiskey class boats from the Soviet Union and the first had just entered service. By sailing first to Cape Town, it would allow the two Cannon class ships that had deployed on the thirteenth time to sanitize the approaches to Fremantle and join up with the carrier after to improve her anti-submarine defenses even further.

As an added precaution, the tanker Mijdrecht was also hired to sail with the task force to Fremantle to ensure none of the destroyers would run dry on fuel during the high speed transit. The entire task force would arrive in Fremantle on March fifteenth.

In OTL, the Dutch operated Nike Ajax batteries in West Germany and Netherlands. Those batteries began conversion to Nike Hercules in late 1958 or in 1959. The removed Nike Ajax equipment went into storage somewhere, AFAIK.

A complication was that some parts of the Nike Ajax system were carried over for Nike Hercules, so the systems put into storage were not complete.

A further complication was that neither Nike Ajax throughout its service life, nor Nike Hercules throughout most of its service life, was in any way mobile or readily transported. Both required significant specialized concrete-and-precision-steel infrastructure for the launchers and radars; extensive and complex cabling over at least thousands of feet; and significant electronics facilities.

But, a difficult capability is better than no capability.

Would the Dutch ask USA regarding possibly available Nike batteries, and their other strategic partners regarding their respective SAM systems, to have some sort of SAM capability sold to them that then could be shipped to the action zone?

I actually thought about that. But as you said, none of the Nike systems were mobile. They all required massive, specialized infrastructure to operate. And quite frankly, there just isn't time to not only get the equipment into the theater, but to build the associated infrastructure. Even if they pulled missiles out of Japan or Taiwan, they still couldn't get the launch sites built in time.

The only other US option would be a HAWK battery. But the first two batteries only just went operational like a month earlier in TL. And while I'm sure the US would love to get some real world data on how the HAWK performs, it would still take 26 days at 10 knots to ship them from Long Beach to Biak. Assuming they're even in Long Beach and ready to ship.

 

[aim9xray]

Regarding HAWK, howabout C-124 air transport to Japan or closer, then sealift to destination? Or airlift all the way?

 

[starviking]

I wonder about the infrastructure requirements of the Bloodhound missile. It, and possibly the Thunderbird, might just about fit the timeline - but exact operational service dates are hard to find.

 

[zen]

Lybia did opt for Thunderbird....before the revolution.

 

[SSgtC]

Bloodhound just went operational in December. And the UK had first option on them. Australia ordered it as well, I think in 57, and didn't get theirs until 61. I don't see the UK transferring their primary defensive system to what amounts to a colonial backwater.

Thunderbird is also just coming online. Like the US, I'm sure the UK would love some real world data on it. Just not sure about getting it into the theater in time to be useful

 

[JWilly]

February 20, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

After the inevitable delays, the HNLMS Karel Doorman departs Den Helder Naval Base bound for the Pacific. Along with the Doorman, the Royal Netherlands Navy was also sending the light cruiser De Ruyter and the Friesland class destroyers Limburg, Groningen, Drenthe and Utrecht. The light cruiser would provide heavy shore bombardment and anti-surface firepower if needed while the four destroyers would use their 120mm guns to provide anti-air defense, along with their heavy anti-submarine armament to defend the carrier from underwater attacks.

After much discussion, it was decided to send the carrier around the Cape of Good Hope instead of through the Suez Canal. Serious concerns had been aired that the Egyptians may refuse them use of the canal. However, the added distance would cause issues with the endurance of the ships of the force. A decision had to be made with regards to the speed at which the task force would sail.

The Doorman had a normal cruising speed of fourteen knots, and at that speed, she could sail easily steam from Amsterdam to Fremantle nonstop. However, the voyage would take more than thirty days at that speed. Several options had been considered to solve the issue. The first option that had been brought up was to steam at eighteen knots, make a port visit at Cape Town in South Africa to top off the ships of the task force, then steam at twenty-five knots to Fremantle. Including the twenty-four hour stop in Cape Town, the task force could reach Australia in twenty-three days.

The second option would be to employ the turbine tanker Mijdrecht, which the Navy had been planning to charter anyway for the goodwill cruise to the United States, and use her as an underway replenishment ship. The task force could then sail at twenty-five knots all the way to Fremantle, only slowing to conduct refueling operations, and reach the Southwest Pacific in only twenty days.

Ultimately, operational considerations won out and the ships would steam to Cape Town in South Africa first, followed by a a high speed transit to Fremantle. The primary reason for the decision was concern over Indonesian submarines in the area. Indonesia had recently purchased several Whiskey class boats from the Soviet Union and the first had just entered service. By sailing first to Cape Town, it would allow the two Cannon class ships that had deployed on the thirteenth time to sanitize the approaches to Fremantle and join up with the carrier after to improve her anti-submarine defenses even further.

As an added precaution, the tanker Mijdrecht was also hired to sail with the task force to Fremantle to ensure none of the destroyers would run dry on fuel during the high speed transit. The entire task force would arrive in Fremantle on March fifteenth.

In OTL, the Dutch operated Nike Ajax batteries in West Germany and Netherlands. Those batteries began conversion to Nike Hercules in late 1958 or in 1959. The removed Nike Ajax equipment went into storage somewhere, AFAIK.

A complication was that some parts of the Nike Ajax system were carried over for Nike Hercules, so the systems put into storage were not complete.

A further complication was that neither Nike Ajax throughout its service life, nor Nike Hercules throughout most of its service life, was in any way mobile or readily transported. Both required significant specialized concrete-and-precision-steel infrastructure for the launchers and radars; extensive and complex cabling over at least thousands of feet; and significant electronics facilities.

But, a difficult capability is better than no capability.

Would the Dutch ask USA regarding possibly available Nike batteries, and their other strategic partners regarding their respective SAM systems, to have some sort of SAM capability sold to them that then could be shipped to the action zone?

I actually thought about that. But as you said, none of the Nike systems were mobile. They all required massive, specialized infrastructure to operate. And quite frankly, there just isn't time to not only get the equipment into the theater, but to build the associated infrastructure. Even if they pulled missiles out of Japan or Taiwan, they still couldn't get the launch sites built in time.

The only other US option would be a HAWK battery. But the first two batteries only just went operational like a month earlier in TL. And while I'm sure the US would love to get some real world data on how the HAWK performs, it would still take 26 days at 10 knots to ship them from Long Beach to Biak. Assuming they're even in Long Beach and ready to ship.

Hawk and Hercules both are not quite in ATL. They existed and theoretically were operational, but wouldn't have been available and ready to go to SW Pacific directly from US and weren't yet deployed to US forward bases in the region (Philippines/Japan/Korea etc.) or provided to major allies including Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand.

And as noted, Nike Ajax could not be deployed quickly. If its need hadn't been foreseen, it was too late.

But it seems militarily implausible to me that the Dutch Army would make *no* effort toward AA defense in theater.

The US weapon system preceding Nike Ajax, still operational in 1958-59 in CONUS and with NATO and other major global US deployments and AFAIK still in use by many major US allies, was M51 "Skysweeper", a fully automatic 75mm antiaircraft gun. It had high lethality against WWII-like bombers at medium to high altitude, i.e. flying straight and level. It was fully mobile, delivered as a single truck-towed load and entirely self-contained except for ammo and crew delivery. The Dutch had units in Netherlands as a part of the Ijessel Line and had military personnel fully ready to operate the equipment, and I think units would have been available at US and allied locations around the SW Pacific region and could have been quickly transferred to Dutch control for intraregional transport.

Again, it just doesn't ring true that no AA effort would be made by the Dutch Army.

 

[JWilly]

Regarding HAWK, howabout C-124 air transport to Japan or closer, then sealift to destination? Or airlift all the way?

Hawk's complexity and newness would have been a challenge. Setup, operation and maintenance at that stage all would have required very-high-level US personnel...probably the cadre that had done the final development and acceptance testing...plus civilian engineers. No way that system could have been airfreighted to the Dutch and been effective straight out of the plane or ship's hold.

 

[SSgtC]

Hawk and Hercules both are not quite in ATL. They existed and theoretically were operational, but wouldn't have been available and ready to go to SW Pacific directly from US and weren't yet deployed to US forward bases in the region (Philippines/Japan/Korea etc.) or provided to major allies including Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand.

And as noted, Nike Ajax could not be deployed quickly. If its need hadn't been foreseen, it was too late.

But it seems militarily implausible to me that the Dutch Army would make *no* effort toward AA defense in theater.

The US weapon system preceding Nike Ajax, still operational in 1958-59 in CONUS and with NATO and other major global US deployments and AFAIK still in use by many major US allies, was M51 "Skysweeper", a fully automatic 75mm antiaircraft gun. It had high lethality against WWII-like bombers at medium to high altitude, i.e. flying straight and level. It was fully mobile, delivered as a single truck-towed load and entirely self-contained except for ammo and crew delivery. The Dutch had units in Netherlands as a part of the Ijessel Line and had military personnel fully ready to operate the equipment, and I think units would have been available at US and allied locations around the SW Pacific region and could have been quickly transferred to Dutch control for intraregional transport.

Again, it just doesn't ring true that no AA effort would be made by the Dutch Army.

The Dutch do have AA batteries in the theater. They even shot down an IL-28 with them. But there is only so much a gun system can do against high and fast targets

 

[lordroel]

Hawk and Hercules both are not quite in ATL. They existed and theoretically were operational, but wouldn't have been available and ready to go to SW Pacific directly from US and weren't yet deployed to US forward bases in the region (Philippines/Japan/Korea etc.) or provided to major allies including Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand.

And as noted, Nike Ajax could not be deployed quickly. If its need hadn't been foreseen, it was too late.

But it seems militarily implausible to me that the Dutch Army would make *no* effort toward AA defense in theater.

The US weapon system preceding Nike Ajax, still operational in 1958-59 in CONUS and with NATO and other major global US deployments and AFAIK still in use by many major US allies, was M51 "Skysweeper", a fully automatic 75mm antiaircraft gun. It had high lethality against WWII-like bombers at medium to high altitude, i.e. flying straight and level. It was fully mobile, delivered as a single truck-towed load and entirely self-contained except for ammo and crew delivery. The Dutch had units in Netherlands as a part of the Ijessel Line and had military personnel fully ready to operate the equipment, and I think units would have been available at US and allied locations around the SW Pacific region and could have been quickly transferred to Dutch control for intraregional transport.

Again, it just doesn't ring true that no AA effort would be made by the Dutch Army.

The Dutch do have AA batteries in the theater. They even shot down an IL-28 with them. But there is only so much a gun system can do against high and fast targets

Are the AA batteries more suited for low level planes ore higher flying planes.

 

[SSgtC]

Hawk and Hercules both are not quite in ATL. They existed and theoretically were operational, but wouldn't have been available and ready to go to SW Pacific directly from US and weren't yet deployed to US forward bases in the region (Philippines/Japan/Korea etc.) or provided to major allies including Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand.

And as noted, Nike Ajax could not be deployed quickly. If its need hadn't been foreseen, it was too late.

But it seems militarily implausible to me that the Dutch Army would make *no* effort toward AA defense in theater.

The US weapon system preceding Nike Ajax, still operational in 1958-59 in CONUS and with NATO and other major global US deployments and AFAIK still in use by many major US allies, was M51 "Skysweeper", a fully automatic 75mm antiaircraft gun. It had high lethality against WWII-like bombers at medium to high altitude, i.e. flying straight and level. It was fully mobile, delivered as a single truck-towed load and entirely self-contained except for ammo and crew delivery. The Dutch had units in Netherlands as a part of the Ijessel Line and had military personnel fully ready to operate the equipment, and I think units would have been available at US and allied locations around the SW Pacific region and could have been quickly transferred to Dutch control for intraregional transport.

Again, it just doesn't ring true that no AA effort would be made by the Dutch Army.

The Dutch do have AA batteries in the theater. They even shot down an IL-28 with them. But there is only so much a gun system can do against high and fast targets

Are the AA batteries more suited for low level planes ore higher flying planes.

From what I can find, low to medium altitude

 

[JWilly]

My understanding is that Dutch low to medium altitude AA in 1959 probably would have been Bofors 40mm L/70 autocannon.

MV ~1000 m/s with HE-frag shell. Absolute ceiling 12,500 meters, but effective ceiling a few thousand meters against straight flying aircraft. 240 RPM...the 300 RPM improvement wasn't until 1979. Contact fuzed shells...the first proximity fuzed shells weren't fielded until 1973. Power operated, but manually aimed prior to '70s versions so limited effectiveness against fast low altitude targets.

This gun looks superficially similar to the WWII hand-cranked L/60 version, but was an all-new design with many improvements. OTO Melara eventually got it to 450 RPM per gun in a dual fast-servo mount, radar aimed, radar tracking of shell trajectories to autocorrect for air movements between gun and target, with proximity shells. But, not yet as of 1959.

Netherlands was the first external customer for this gun-version for Bofors, and began receiving guns in about 1953.

 

[SSgtC]

March 5, 1959
In the South Atlantic

Karel Doorman cast off the last line from the TS Mijdrecht and began to accelerate back to eighteen knots. The chartered oiler had been ordered to meet the task force at the halfway point between Las Palmas in the Canaries and Cape Town in South Africa. The plans for this deployment to the Far East had changed multiple times since the orders were first cut, and Captain van Es did not like how often things had changed. It gave him a bad feeling for this mission. Even if he did think this latest change made the most sense.

Nine more days to Cape Town, then another dash to Fremantle to offload the Hunters that were clogging up his deck. Please God let this crises blow over, he prayed.

Author's Note: apologies for the out of order update, but I missed this one when I post the 3/7/59 update on Oriskany.

 

[SSgtC]

March 13, 1959
Hollandia, West New Guinea

HNLMS Zeeleeuw eased through the inky waters of the harbor. She had made a fast passage to New Guinea. Overhead, the stars sparkled in the sky with a brilliance rarely seen so close to land. Captain Hordijk was relieved by that, for it meant that the blackout was actually being enforced. His goal was to take on fuel and fresh supplies for his first war patrol in fourteen years. With luck, he would even be able to give his crew a little shore leave to stretch their legs.

From his submarine's high sail, Roel watched as one of his junior officers conned the ship and ordered the proper evolutions to bring his boat safely up to the fueling pier. He was proud of his crew. He had worked them very hard on the voyage from Amsterdam and they had all shown the same grit and zeal that his comrades in World War Two had. But he was also worried. His boat had been built in that same war and was now nearly obsolete. The refit the Americans had given her prior to transferring her to the Koninklijke Marine was a basic one, with none of the advanced equipment that their own war built submarines had received. Would his crew be able to overcome that obstacle? Or would they find a watery grave in the Philippine Sea?

He suspected that he would soon find out. And if the nervous looking man standing on the pier and clutching a thick envelope was any indication, he would find out sooner than he expected. Even as the lines were being made fast to secure Zeeleeuw to the fueling pier, the nervous looking man jumped onto his boat's deck, proffered a short salute to the flag, and hurried toward the open hatch on the deck. The lack of decorum was interesting and a likely indicator of how urgent the man must feel his mission was.

Roel would have to see what news the man carried with him. Giving his men on the conning tower a well earned "good job," he climbed down into his submarine's cramped control room. There he was met by a man wearing the uniform of a Luitenant ter zee der 1st klasse. After a quick greeting, the man suggested that they talk privately in the Captain's cabin. Roel couldn't help but smile and stifle a chuckle. The man was obviously not a submarine officer. There was no privacy, nor any secrets, on a submarine. Especially not one as small as Zeeleeuw. But he would humor the man for the moment.

Once they were ensconced in his closet-sized cabin, the man wasted no time getting right down to it. He said, "Captain, please forgive my abruptness and lack of formality. But I was ordered to meet with you the moment you arrived and not one second later. Our radio intelligence units and some selected human intelligence assets have reported a number of disturbing signs. Based on radio intercepts and reports from some of our people on the ground, it is the opinion of military intelligence that the Indonesians are planning to launch an amphibious assault against West New Guinea within the next seven to ten days.

"Your submarine is not only the best asset we have to stop this planned invasion, it is our only asset after the loss of Eversteen and our ordering of Kortenaer to leave the area and reinforce the Doorman's escort screen. Based on our best estimate, we believe that the invasion is planned to land on Biak in order to take the airfield there and serve as a forward staging area to then invade the rest of West New Guinea."

Roel could only nod along as he listened intently. He had suspected that this would happen, and that it was the real reason for his boat being sent halfway around the world. Though he would be lying if he said that he thought that the invasion would be coming so soon into his boat's deployment.

The intelligence officer continued, "In this envelope, you will find the relevant reports that have led us to this conclusion, minus of course any information that could identify the sources. You will also find a list of the ports that we believe the invasion force will be departing from, the units we think are being tasked to this mission, and perhaps most critically for you, the naval assets that we have identified as being tasked to escort this force to our shores.

"Captain, I dislike dramatics, but you and your crew are all that stands between us and certain invasion. Though I would not speak of it outside of this hull, our Air Force here has been destroyed and their base has been bombed constantly. They will not be able to stop any force that is heading towards us. The senior surviving officer at Mokmer has said that they will attempt to launch maritime patrols using our remaining Neptune aircraft, but he is not confident in their ability to do so reliably.

"It is a shit situation, Sir. Doorman and her escorts are coming, but they are still more than two weeks away. We must hold the line until they arrive. How quickly can you head back to sea, Captain?"

Captain Hordijk considered the condition of his boat and the state of his crew. But he knew that there was only one acceptable answer to give. He said, "I need to top off my fuel tanks before we head back out. I have enough stores on board for at least a thirty day patrol. That should be more than enough to get us through the danger period, with a comfortable margin for error. We can head back to sea as soon as fueling is complete."

"Very good, Sir. A patrol box is included in your orders, Captain. Please remain within it so that any maritime patrol planes that we do manage to launch will not attack you in error. And Captain, thank you."

"No need to thank us. This is our duty. Now if you will excuse me Commander, I need to ensure my boat is ready for a war patrol."

 

[Volkodav]

Whilst on the subject of Grumman F9F vs NAA FJ-4, I always found this snippet of information intriguing, and I wouldn't have thought:

.....

Regards
Pioneer

The FJ-4B was in front-line service until 1962 (year of its last carrier deployment, aboard USS Hancock CVA-19), and with the reserves for a few more years.

A radar-equipped night fighter version of the two-seat F9F-8T (TF-9J after Nov 1962) was proposed by Grumman in 1955. It was to have carried an AN/APQ-50 radar and was to have been equipped with an all-missile armament. However, the performance was considered insufficient to warrant production.

In 1961, Grumman proposed a modernized version of the F9F-8T with updated systems and a Pratt & Whitney J52 turbojet in place of the J48. However, the Navy selected the Douglas TA-4F instead, and the updated two-seat Cougar project was abandoned.

Now, what would replacing the Pratt & Whitney J48-P-8A turbojet (rated at 7,250 lb.s.t. dry and 8,500 lb.s.t. with water injection for take-off only) with a Pratt & Whitney J52-P-8A turbojet (rated at 9,300 lb.s.t) or even a J52-P-6A (8,500 lb.s.t. dry) do for performance (climb rate, top speed, etc)?

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

There was a late 40s CAC proposal for a two seat, radar equipped Panther I vaguely recall reading about in a book covering the development of the AVON / CAC Sabre. If CAC were looking at it obviously Grumman would have too, interesting, thanks for reminding me.

 

[bobtdwarf]

I have a good idea what the lower fuel consumption (.86 lb fuel/lb thrust/hr vs 1.16 lbf/lbt/hr for the J48) would do for its range... and fitting it with the APQ-50, allowing it to find a place aboard CVSs for CAP - that might perhaps allow it to continue in deployed service long after its historic 1959 withdrawal to reserve squadrons (where the historic F-9Js & AF-9Js [F9F-8Bs] served just as long as the AF-1Es [FJ-4Bs]).

While this is a good idea, especially for the trainers, did we not just learn that all carrier fighters that aren’t Crusaders are just too slow to safely intercept those missile laden bombers?

Yup. They can conduct a successful intercept. But only if they are stationed in the general vicinity of an inbound raid while flying BARCAP. At least a Crusader can punch in afterburner and haul ass to where it's needed and be able to conduct an intercept without being perfectly positioned first.

This obviously means we need the Super Tiger as a short-term supersonic gap filler while Crusader and Phantom production ramps up

Crusaders are already in the fleet. Super Tigers would actually take longer to get to VF squadrons than Crusaders would. Not to mention, there are two squadrons of F8Us in theater right now. Just not with force in the Philippine Sea. VF-211 on Midway and VF-142 on Ranger are both equipped with F8U-1s. Likewise, both carrier's photo recon detachments are flying F8U-1PsI

In 1959 there are still 2 Pacific squadrons of normal F-11's.. mach 1.1 is still better than nothing! F4D's are also still available