Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

bobtdwarf said:
In 1959 there are still 2 Pacific squadrons of normal F-11's.. mach 1.1 is still better than nothing! F4D's are also still available
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Yup, and one of them was involved in the action here, VF-191, Satan's Kittens, flying off of Bon Homme Richard as part of Carrier Air Group 19.

And can I just say, NO ONE did squadron nicknames better than those hard fuckers in WWII. Just look at these glorious names:

VF-191, Satan's Kittens
VA-175, Devil's Diplomats
VF-15, Satan's Playmates

And those are just SOME of the names they came up with! Hats off to them
 
Ed Nash' YouTube channel has a new vid on the SuperTiger.. not going to post a link so it doesn't distract from the overall thread. Reason I mention it is a couple of pilots that flew the straight Tiger posted some very nice comments about the aircraft in the comments section.
 
March 14, 1959
Halmahera Sea, 0330 Local Time

Water rushed into the tanks as vents and valves were opened. Hatches slammed shut even as men were still sliding down ladders. Zeeleeuw had spotted the enemy. She had been on the surface charging her batteries and using her radar intermittently to try and spot the ships she was looking for. She had succeeded. It was far sooner than expected, but there was no denying what she had seen.

After the first contact had been made, she had shut off her radar and approached slowly on the surface to get a firm identification. Those were landing ships out there, and they were being escorted by torpedo boats and at least one destroyer. Captain Hordijk had his orders. He was to close in and go for the transports. While being on the receiving end of naval gunfire was not pleasant, the men in New Guinea could survive it. They could not survive invasion. If he did not stop them here, they could not be stopped at all.

Roel had been the last man down the hatch from the bridge, and he slammed the hatch shut even as water began to surge into the conning tower, so quickly was his boat slipping beneath the waves. As his feet slammed into the steel deck of his boat's attack center in the conning tower, he began to bark out his orders. "General Quarters, all hands to battle stations. Rig ship for red. Make all torpedo tubes ready in all respects including opening the outer doors."

As his orders were rapidly repeated back to him, he nodded his acknowledgment and leaned nonchalantly against the periscope. He was the only man in his crew to have ever done this for real. To everyone else, it was all new. And the sight of the cool, calm, collected Captain was needed to steady their nerves. His men needed this, he had already seen the nervous looks on their faces when he had delayed giving the order to dive until they were only eight thousand yards from the Indonesian assault force. But he was gambling that the Indonesians were not the hardened professionals that the NATO navies were, or that the Japanese Navy had been during the war, and that they would not notice him until torpedos began to explode.

Zeeleeuw was riding somewhat uncomfortably at periscope depth, but he felt it was a worthwhile trade-off, since he could shoot much more accurately if he had a periscope sighting to put into the Torpedo Data Computer instead of just sonar bearings. Over the small speaker in the conning tower he heard a report, "Torpedo tubes one through six ready in all respects, outer doors are open."

Pushing the button that would carry his voice over the intercom, he replied, "Very well forward torpedo room. Well done."

Even as he finished speaking, another report came in, "Torpedo tubes seven through ten ready in all respects, outer doors are open."

"Very well aft torpedo."

His boat was creeping along at only 3 knots just beneath the waves, a shark hunting for a meal. Based on what he had seen from the surface, he would not have long to wait either. Slowly, slowly he began to get information from his sonar. The Indonesians were steaming straight at him, fat, dumb and happy. Where were their escorts? Did they think we would just let them land unmolested, he wondered?

Was his foolish gamble of closing so much on the surface really going to pay off? It looked like it was. It had been ten minutes since Zeeleeuw had slipped beneath the waves and it was time to take a look around.

"Up scope," he ordered.

Meeting the attack periscope as it slid up out of its well, he quickly spun in a circle looking for anything his sonar might have missed, like a subchaser sitting dead in the water with its engines off listening for a submarine. But there was nothing unexpected there this night. Instead he found his targets. Three large landing ships, a transport ship, five coasters and a handful of escorts. And they were only five thousand-three hundred yards away and still closing.

"Down scope."

Even as the second word was leaving his lips, the periscope was dropping back into it's well. Replaying what he had seen in his brief look above the surface, Roel nodded to himself. He would let them close for another few minutes before beginning his attack. Then he would raise the number one scope, activate the ST radar, get his range, bearing and speed data, and launch a full spread at them. Then God save the Indonesians.

But in the back of his head, a small voice whispered, "God save us."
 
March 14, 1959
Halmahera Sea, 0355 Local

Commander R.S. Subijakto was uneasy. His landing ship was holding the thrid place in line, and was steaming at a steady twelve knots. And that's what had him worried. Admiral Moeljadi had assured everyone that the Dutch had no naval forces in the theater and that their landing would be nearly unopposed. In fact, he was so confident that there was nothing to fear, he had refused to order the convoy to zigzag and the escorts were assigned close in positions to defend against possible air attack instead of looking for Dutch submarines. The noise from their own ships would almost certainly drown out the noise from any submarines out there.

The voyage had been quiet so far. Perhaps his superior was correct. But he still couldn't shake the feeling that they were steaming into a trap. All the stress and worry was exhausting him. He had just turned to order another cup of coffee from the messanger of the watch when he saw a massive spout of water explode along the hull of the ship in front of him. The reverberations from the blast followed almost immediately.

Shocked realization slammed into him with the force of a freight train. Before the water column alongside the ship ahead had even collapsed, he began roaring orders. "Left full rudder! All ahead flank! Sound battle stations and set full watertight integrity throughout the ship! Order the lookouts to watch for torpedo tracks from starboard!"

Even as his ship began to heel into the turn he heard a scream from the lookout. "Torpedo tracks to starboard!"

Commander Subijakto ran to the starboard bridge wing to see for himself. He had already done everything he could to avoid the inbound weapons. He stared in horror at the white tracks of the speeding missiles bored in on his ship. They would not avoid taking at least one hit. He closed his eyes and began to pray.
 
March 14, 1959
Halmahera Sea, 0357 Local

Roel Hordijk watched the havoc his submarine had caused through the number one periscope. All ten fish in the tubes had been launched, all ten had run hot, straight and true. Six had struck their targets. The four ships that had been hit were all sinking. Two of the ships had taken two of the heavy Mark XIV torpedoes each. One of them, the third ship in line, had broken in half from the impacts. It had already rolled over and was rapidly sinking.

His crew had their orders to set a new record for reloading the torpedo tubes. And now he would have to take actions to preserve his command. Already, the Indonesian destroyer that he spotted on his approach was charging at him. Time to go deep and evade until he was ready to launch another attack.

"Down scope. Fifteen degrees down angle on the planes. Make your depth one hundred and twenty meters. Right full rudder, steady on course zero-two-zero."

He took a breath and said, "Sonar, I need continuous bearings to the destroyer coming at us."

Roel grabbed the periscope to steady himself as his boat dove for safety. The steep down angle would slow the reloading of his tubes, but it was a calculated risk he was willing to take. His orders were repeated back to him even as he plotted his next moves. There were still five coasters out there, along with the escorts, and he wanted at least one of them.
 
March 14, 1959
Halmahera Sea, 0420 Local

The latest set of depth charges rolled off the stern of KRI Gadjah Mada. Depth charges were old tech, but they were effective tech. The depth charge throwers were being reloaded and would launch their deadly charges as soon as the reverberations from the last pattern of bombs subsided and the ASDIC could find the offending boat again.

The surviving coasters and the torpedo boats had been ordered to run back to port. The loss of the three landing ships that were carrying the majority of the assault force and the transport with most of the heavy equipment like the artillery, was a blow that they would not be able to overcome. Not now, anyway. Once they regrouped, and had a proper escort force, they could try again. Hopefully.
 
March 14, 1959
Halmahera Sea, 0427 Local

The last set of depth charges still reverberated through the sea and his boat gently rocked in the remains of the explosive turbulence. The Indonesians had come close a few times, and his boat had taken more damage than he would prefer, but it was time to remind the hunters upon the surface that the shark they were hunting had teeth of their own. Zeeleeuw was rising slowly from the depths, with her bow pointed at the prowling destroyer. The transports that were his primary targets had all turned and ran. His sonar team thought that the torpedo boats had run with them.

In a voice more appropriate to the family pew back home than the attack center of a submarine, he said, "Make torpedo tubes one through four ready in all respects, including opening the outer doors. Warn the torpedo room crew to expect a snap shot. Raise the Number One scope."

Before the head of the scope had even broached the waves he was already scanning the water. It was a dark night, but it might still be possible to spot the shadow from the destroyer. No luck this time. Still, as the water drained away from the lens, he saw the destroyer and it was coming almost right at him.

Roel began to snap orders in a frenzy. "Snap shot! Tubes one and two! Angle on the bow, zero-zero-five degrees! Range, one thousand five hundred meters! Shoot!"

Zeeleeuw shuddered as both torpedos streaked from their tubes and towards the destroyer. "Both torpedos running hot, straight and normal! Left full rudder, all ahead full! Close the outer doors on tubes one and two! Prepare for another snap shot on tubes three and four!"

It was a risk leaving the scope up, the wake could give him away. But with two fish inbound, he didn't think it mattered that much. He kept the lens pointed at the Indonesian destroyer, praying his first two fish would find their mark. He was about to curse his luck and order the next two tubes fired when a mighty explosion rent the night asunder. One of his fish had found the mark afterall. The destroyer that had been harrying him bucked and heaved as the Mark XIV tore into it. The ship went dead in the water with a shudder and he could see men scrambling to get off the stricken vessel. The threat of invasion, at least for the foreseeable future, had ended.
 
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Couldn't help thinking the reverse is true for The Netherlands - the air force sucked and suffered, the Navy presently has saved the day.
 
Pretty much. Though to be fair, had the Indonesians known that there was a hostile sub in the theater, they would have operated differently. As it is, Zeeleeuw took damage and came close to being sunk.

In this case, Soviet intelligence had completely missed the sub's sailing and the Indonesians never saw it during its transit. In a few months, the KGB will find a report from an asset in Cape Town that reported that a Dutch Submarine was refueled at the port on the 26th of February. But since he reported to someone who was not involved in the operation to delay NATO's response to the Indonesian seizure of West Irian, it was never forwarded to the right people.
 
Simple question - why was Lake Champlain SBC-125 conversion cancelled ? Poor thing was the one and only SBC-27 Essex never get the next big upgrade. Also, was a conversion ever planned for Antietam, since that one had pioneered the angled deck ?

I made a colored chart of the Essex class, out of Wikipedia own list. Shows the main fourteen that got as far as SBC-125; plus the three LPH, the five "not converted" (CVS, retired early) the two crippled never put back in service (AVT). Never realized there were two more Essex (so 26) that were never finished and scrapped early.

CVS went away first, in 1958-66, quickly followed by the tw crippled in the reserve fleet.

It also shows the first wave of CVA & LPH retirement in 1969-72, followed by the last five survivors going away in 1973-76: with the notable exception of Lexington.

So, after the SBC-125/A massive round of upgrade concluded at 14 in 1959 - which one of the 10 others would you pick for a C-14 catapult SBC-125B ? LPH, CVS, or AVT in mothballs ?
 

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Archibald said:
Simple question - why was Lake Champlain SBC-125 conversion cancelled ? Poor thing was the one and only SBC-27 Essex never get the next big upgrade. Also, was a conversion ever planned for Antietam, since that one had pioneered the angled deck ?

I made a colored chart of the Essex class, out of Wikipedia own list. Shows the main fourteen that got as far as SBC-125; plus the three LPH, the five "not converted" (CVS, retired early) the two crippled never put back in service (AVT). Never realized there were two more Essex (so 26) that were never finished and scrapped early.

CVS went away first, in 1958-66, quickly followed by the tw crippled in the reserve fleet.

It also shows the first wave of CVA & LPH retirement in 1969-72, followed by the last five survivors going away in 1973-76: with the notable exception of Lexington.

So, after the SBC-125/A massive round of upgrade concluded at 14 in 1959 - which one of the 10 others would you pick for a C-14 catapult SBC-125B ? LPH, CVS, or AVT in mothballs ?
Click to expand...
Lake Champlaign's SCB-125A refit was canceled as a cost saving measure. The new classes of carriers were starting to cost more, and were more capable. So as much as the Navy wanted Lake Champlaign to get the refit, they figured they could get by without her. What they couldn't do without, was Polaris. So they cut her SCB-125A.

No, no one ever considered, at least as far as I know, a refit for Antietam. Yes, she had an angled deck, but it was only an experimental one and she was otherwise unmodernized. She would need the full SCB-27C/125A treatment to be brought up to the current standard. So 3 years out of service and several million dollars. Pretty clear choice to send her to mothballs.

If i had to pick more decks to get modernized, it would be Lake Champlaign first (already modernized under SCB-27A and would need less work to return to service than the others), then Tarawa (the only ship in the entire class to never see combat, served as a CVS until 1960), then the two rebuilds since I'm still holding out hope for a "full" modernization and don't want to kill it by bringing them back into service unless I have to.
 
SSgtC said:
Archibald said:
Simple question - why was Lake Champlain SBC-125 conversion cancelled ? Poor thing was the one and only SBC-27 Essex never get the next big upgrade. Also, was a conversion ever planned for Antietam, since that one had pioneered the angled deck ?

I made a colored chart of the Essex class, out of Wikipedia own list. Shows the main fourteen that got as far as SBC-125; plus the three LPH, the five "not converted" (CVS, retired early) the two crippled never put back in service (AVT). Never realized there were two more Essex (so 26) that were never finished and scrapped early.

CVS went away first, in 1958-66, quickly followed by the tw crippled in the reserve fleet.

It also shows the first wave of CVA & LPH retirement in 1969-72, followed by the last five survivors going away in 1973-76: with the notable exception of Lexington.

So, after the SBC-125/A massive round of upgrade concluded at 14 in 1959 - which one of the 10 others would you pick for a C-14 catapult SBC-125B ? LPH, CVS, or AVT in mothballs ?
Click to expand...
Lake Champlaign's SCB-125A refit was canceled as a cost saving measure. The new classes of carriers were starting to cost more, and were more capable. So as much as the Navy wanted Lake Champlaign to get the refit, they figured they could get by without her. What they couldn't do without, was Polaris. So they cut her SCB-125A.

No, no one ever considered, at least as far as I know, a refit for Antietam. Yes, she had an angled deck, but it was only an experimental one and she was otherwise unmodernized. She would need the full SCB-27C/125A treatment to be brought up to the current standard. So 3 years out of service and several million dollars. Pretty clear choice to send her to mothballs.

If i had to pick more decks to get modernized, it would be Lake Champlaign first (already modernized under SCB-27A and would need less work to return to service than the others), then Tarawa (the only ship in the entire class to never see combat, served as a CVS until 1960), then the two rebuilds since I'm still holding out hope for a "full" modernization and don't want to kill it by bringing them back into service unless I have to.
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It would have been nice if they had completed Reprisal and the other unfinished hull (don't remember her name if I ever knew it), to Oriskany standard at the least or possibly to the metal flight deck Essex subclass whose name escapes me(I posted about it to Zen in one of the British carrier threads), though it would have a smaller hangar deck at 3500 square meters opposed to the 4000+ of the regular one.
 
bobtdwarf said:
SSgtC said:
Archibald said:
Simple question - why was Lake Champlain SBC-125 conversion cancelled ? Poor thing was the one and only SBC-27 Essex never get the next big upgrade. Also, was a conversion ever planned for Antietam, since that one had pioneered the angled deck ?

I made a colored chart of the Essex class, out of Wikipedia own list. Shows the main fourteen that got as far as SBC-125; plus the three LPH, the five "not converted" (CVS, retired early) the two crippled never put back in service (AVT). Never realized there were two more Essex (so 26) that were never finished and scrapped early.

CVS went away first, in 1958-66, quickly followed by the tw crippled in the reserve fleet.

It also shows the first wave of CVA & LPH retirement in 1969-72, followed by the last five survivors going away in 1973-76: with the notable exception of Lexington.

So, after the SBC-125/A massive round of upgrade concluded at 14 in 1959 - which one of the 10 others would you pick for a C-14 catapult SBC-125B ? LPH, CVS, or AVT in mothballs ?
Click to expand...
Lake Champlaign's SCB-125A refit was canceled as a cost saving measure. The new classes of carriers were starting to cost more, and were more capable. So as much as the Navy wanted Lake Champlaign to get the refit, they figured they could get by without her. What they couldn't do without, was Polaris. So they cut her SCB-125A.

No, no one ever considered, at least as far as I know, a refit for Antietam. Yes, she had an angled deck, but it was only an experimental one and she was otherwise unmodernized. She would need the full SCB-27C/125A treatment to be brought up to the current standard. So 3 years out of service and several million dollars. Pretty clear choice to send her to mothballs.

If i had to pick more decks to get modernized, it would be Lake Champlaign first (already modernized under SCB-27A and would need less work to return to service than the others), then Tarawa (the only ship in the entire class to never see combat, served as a CVS until 1960), then the two rebuilds since I'm still holding out hope for a "full" modernization and don't want to kill it by bringing them back into service unless I have to.
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It would have been nice if they had completed Reprisal and the other unfinished hull (don't remember her name if I ever knew it), to Oriskany standard at the least or possibly to the metal flight deck Essex subclass whose name escapes me(I posted about it to Zen in one of the British carrier threads), though it would have a smaller hangar deck at 3500 square meters opposed to the 4000+ of the regular one.
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I think that was Iwo Jima. Started construction in early 45, canceled in August that same year.
 
They are on the Wikipedia list, it is just that I nuked them into oblivion. They are CV-35 Reprisal & CV-46 Iwo Jima.
en.wikipedia.org

Essex-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

If i had to pick more decks to get modernized, it would be Lake Champlaign first (already modernized under SCB-27A and would need less work to return to service than the others), then Tarawa (the only ship in the entire class to never see combat, served as a CVS until 1960), then the two rebuilds since I'm still holding out hope for a "full" modernization and don't want to kill it by bringing them back into service unless I have to.
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Duly noted !
 
FWIW

According to Norman Friedman's U.S. Aircraft Carriers.
  • Reprisal was laid down on 01.07.44 and was cancelled (40% complete) on 12.08.45. (Page 413)
  • Iwo Jima was laid down on 29.01.45 and cancelled on 11.08.45. (Page 413) Unfortunately, Friedman doesn't say how complete she was.
  • Oriskany's completion to a revised SCB27A design was approved by the CNO on 05.06.47. She had been suspended 85% complete, and had to be torn back to a 60% state of completion before reconstruction could begin. (Page 291 & 294)
  • 17 SCB.27 refits were authorised and 15 were carried out. One FY48, two FY49, two FY50, four FY51, four FY52 and four FY53. However, only two of the FY53 refits were carried out. (Pages 291, 294 and 295).
  • 8 Essex class received SCB.144/FRAM II refits. Randolph (CVS-15) FY61, two (CVS-9 & 33) FY62, one (CVS-20) FY63, three (CVS-11, 12 & 18) FY65 and one (CVS-10) FY66. CVS-11 (Intrepid) was the only SCB.27C to be modernised in this fashion. (Pages 345 & 347) Except that Fahey said that Wasp's (CVS-18) was under FY64.
  • The Navy proposed the modernisation of Lake Champlain in FY66. This was rejected by Messrs McNamara and Vance. (Page 350)
According to Fahey in Ships and Aircraft of US Fleet - 8th Edition, published in 1965.
  • The SCB.125A refits of Oriskany and Lake Chaplain were authorised in FY57. (Page 7)
  • A footnote on Page 7 about Lake Champlain says, "She was slated for an SCB-125A refit in 1957; wound up with a -144." Except she didn't have that refit either.
 
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NOMISYRRUC said:
FWIW

According to Norman Friedman's U.S. Aircraft Carriers.
  • Reprisal was laid down on 01.07.44 and was cancelled (40% complete) on 12.08.45. (Page 413)
  • Iwo Jima was laid down on 29.01.45 and cancelled on 11.08.45. (Page 413) Unfortunately, Friedman doesn't say how complete she was.
  • Oriskany's completion to a revised SCB27A design was approved by the CNO on 05.06.47. She had been suspended 85% complete, and had to be torn back to a 60% state of completion before reconstruction could begin. (Page 291 & 294)
  • 17 SCB.27 refits were authorised and 15 were carried out. One FY48, two FY49, two FY50, four FY51, four FY52 and four FY53. However, only two of the FY53 refits were carried out. (Pages 291, 294 and 295).
  • 8 Essex class received SCB.144/FRAM II refits. Randolph (CVS-15) FY61, two (CVS-9 & 33) FY62, one (CVS-20) FY63, three (CVS-11, 12 & 18) FY65 and one (CVS-10) FY66. CVS-11 (Intrepid) was the only SCB.27C to be modernised in this fashion. (Pages 345 & 347) Except that Fahey said that Wasp's (CVS-18) was under FY64.
  • The Navy proposed the modernisation of Lake Champlain in FY66. This was rejected by Messrs McNamara and Vance. (Page 350)
According to Fahey in Ships and Aircraft of US Fleet - 8th Edition, published in 1965.
  • The SCB.125A refits of Oriskany and Lake Chaplain were authorised in FY57. (Page 7)
  • A footnote on Page 7 about Lake Champlain says, "She was slated for an SCB-125A refit in 1957; wound up with a -144." Except she didn't have that refit either.
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So Iwo and Reprisal could have been completed to either an Oriskany standard or had a substantially more robust alteration.. most likely Oriskany.
 
I wrote in Post 1,144 that only two out of the four SCB.27 refits authorised in FY53 were carried out. My guess is that the two ships that weren't refitted were to have been Bunker Hill and Franklin which would have had combined SCB.27C/SCB.125 refits.

This is because Oriskany they prototype was a ship suspended at the end of the war when 85% complete and 13 out of the other 14 ships were in reserve having decommissioned 1946-50. Bunker Hill and Franklin were both paid off in 1947.

Of the other 7 Essex class ships.
  • CV-21 Boxer which had been in commission since 1945 and became LPH-4 on 30.01.59. She would not pay off until 01.12.69.
  • CV-32 Leyte which had been in commission since 1946 and did not pay off until 15.05.59. She became AVT-10 on 15.05.59.
  • CV-36 Antietam which had been in commission since 1945 and would not pay off until 08.05.63.
  • CV-37 Princeton which re-commissioned in 1950 and became LPH-5 on 02.03.59. She would not pay off until 30.01.70.
  • CV-40 Tarawa which re-commissioned in 1951 and would not pay off until 13.05.60. She became AVT-12 on 15.05.59.
  • CV-45 Valley Forge that had been in commission since 1946 and became LPH-8 on 01.07.61. She would not pay off until 15.01.70.
  • CV-47 Philippine Sea which had been in commission since 1946 and would not pay off until 28.12.58. She became AVT-11 on 15.05.59.
I think that none of the above would have been available for a SCB.27 refit in FY53 because they would have been needed to keep the required number of ships in commission. Or it they had it would have been necessary to re-commission Bunker Hill and Franklin to take their places.

If I remember correctly from Friedman's US. Aircraft Carriers and U.S. Amphibious Ships & Craft the USN wanted to convert 6 Essexes to LPHs. The 3 ships that did become LPHs were Boxer, Princeton and Valley Forge. My guess is that the other 3 would have been Boxer, Leyte and Philippine Sea.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
Or Canada would have bought Reprisal instead of Powerful (which was completed as Bonaventure) which I once read was considered but I can't remember where. Has anyone else read that?
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that does ring a bell for me, but I am totally fuzzy on any details
 
I think I might remember reading about that as well, but I can't recall how far the proposal got before dying. If i had to guess, it probably died right around the time Canada got a look at the manning requirements
 
SSgtC said:
I think I might remember reading about that as well, but I can't recall how far the proposal got before dying. If i had to guess, it probably died right around the time Canada got a look at the manning requirements
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Manning requirements only become painful if you operate it at full strength. You could probably get by with a Mod-Majestic sized crew if you only operated the same size air wing and only two shafts(rotate the boilers and turbines to keep the hours of operation even on them). Sure you would have to paint the whole thing and make sure the empty spaces were dusted now and again which would increase operational costs a bit but it would get you a whole lot of flexibility in what aircraft you could operate and give the crew some room to spread out.. think NCO's in unused junior officers quarters etc. but probably not the most "efficient" cost per ton when compared to the Bonnie.
 
Antietam mostly spent the late 1950s & early 1960s as training carrier.

I have a copy of a document I found on the internet (of course) detailing Canada's carrier experiences from the planning ongoing from 1943 to the sale of Bonaventure (it ignores the RCN's manning of Nabob and Puncher, as they remained RN ships).

Here is the section pertinent to this discussion:
In April 1952, at a meeting of Cabinet Defense Committee, the decision was made to acquire an aircraft carrier to replace the loaned Magnificent. Such a carrier, i.e. ex-Powerful Class, also a British Light Fleet would be purchased by Canada and incorporate the latest carrier modifications, including improved arrester gear and the steam catapult. Significantly the angled deck and mirror landing system were not proposed. Initial cost estimate for the ship was $15M. There was no evidence to suggest that any other ship than a British Light Fleet Class carrier was ever considered.
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In the spring of 1953, and assuming the Banshee and S2F aircraft would be the RCN choice, the USN proposed the loan of an Essex Class carrier to the RCN for $1 per year. The pro British Light Fleet advocates rejected this apparently due to the fact that the ship would require a larger crew and major changes to the existing catapult. The fact that it was the USN view that a ship the size of the proposed Powerful Class could not operate efficiently and economically in the North Atlantic did not appear to have been a consideration.
.....
Before departing in June 1953 a detailed Memorandum by Commodore Keighly-Peach was prepared which proposed major changes to the RCN Five Year Fleet Plan from 1961-1965. He roundly criticized the one carrier force with 43 escorts, and stated, "This fleet composition was arrived at without sufficient attention being paid to present and near future technical advances vitally affecting naval warfare." He noted RCN Aviation has remained virtually static in numbers of operational aircraft over the past decade in spite of the fact that the emphasis on aircraft in maritime warfare has greatly increased. During the same period, the RCN surface fleet has more than doubled.
He proposed shifting the concentration upon a sizeable fleet of Destroyer Escorts and Patrol Frigates by transferring existing or planned manpower and financial resources to a balanced force of two hunter killer groups built around one Essex Class carrier, the proposed Light Fleet carrier and 25 Destroyer Escorts. This would place the emphasis upon flexibility encompassing ASW capability, support of ground forces, offensive air operations against enemy land targets and enemy naval forces, and providing air defense of shipping. Keighly-Peach also noted that a fully supported proposal and justification for a second carrier had never been made. But if successful, by 1965 it would ensure the RCN an effective capability to participate in limited wars and in the peacekeeping role.
.....
Keighly-Peach's report appears to have been virtually ignored, suggesting senior RCN officers were obviously quite content to live with the imbalance and lack of flexibility inherent in a navy composed almost entirely of small ships and capable of only a limited role.
.....
In December 1955 the Deputy Minister directed that a critical review be conducted of RCN Aviation due to his concern about the considerable number of units (squadrons) and aircraft in use to support the two front line aircraft squadrons assigned for Bonaventure.
The review, recognizing that RCAF reserve squadrons were being disbanded, also proposed the disbandment of the reserve navy air squadrons. However, the Committee came up with a greatly different series of conclusions and recommendations and in a Top Secret report stated:
In the Eastlant role, Bonaventure would require an AEWcapability, fighter air defense and an ASW squadron. The carrier was too small to perform these functions.
Conclusions:
Bonaventure could carry only a mix of ASW aircraft consisting of fixed wing and helicopters and was therefore inadequate for the assigned role.
Recommendations:
The ASW group (hunter killer) should comprise two Light Fleet Class carriers which combined could provide AEW aircraft, fighters and ASW aircraft (helicopter and fixed-wing), or
A single carrier e.g. (USN Essex Class) be procured, which could fulfill the need for the required AEW, air defense of the fleet and the ASW role.
Observations:
Current naval plans failed to reflect the growing importance of the power of naval aviation in maritime warfare;
Operational Research Studies established that under certain circumstances two CS2F aircraft are more effective than a St. Laurent Class escort;
Developments lead to the conclusion that a more effective navy could be achieved if a better balance of air to surface units was contemplated;
A serious imbalance of forces exists in the RCN insofar as the surface forces have steadily increased in personnel and ships, whereas Naval Aviation, even though rearming with new aircraft, had not grown proportionally;
Helicopter platforms for escorts were proposed to augment the range of carrier-based ASW helicopters and have an independent increased search capability.
The reference to the carrier limitations, although disturbing news to some, confirmed exactly what the USN had earlier stated. Now four months before the commissioning of Bonaventure, it was now officially established that the ship was incapable of meeting its assigned role. Air defense of the fleet was virtually impossible without severe degradation of either the ASW or AEW capability.
As far as can be determined, the report prepared by non-aviators and remarkably similar to the one previously proposed by Keighly-Peach, was never discussed by Naval Board.
Click to expand...

So the idea of a Canuck Essex had been proposed by the USN, and twice by Canadian admirals... but was never seriously considered at all.
 
bobtdwarf said:
SSgtC said:
I think I might remember reading about that as well, but I can't recall how far the proposal got before dying. If i had to guess, it probably died right around the time Canada got a look at the manning requirements
Click to expand...
Manning requirements only become painful if you operate it at full strength. You could probably get by with a Mod-Majestic sized crew if you only operated the same size air wing and only two shafts(rotate the boilers and turbines to keep the hours of operation even on them). Sure you would have to paint the whole thing and make sure the empty spaces were dusted now and again which would increase operational costs a bit but it would get you a whole lot of flexibility in what aircraft you could operate and give the crew some room to spread out.. think NCO's in unused junior officers quarters etc. but probably not the most "efficient" cost per ton when compared to the Bonnie.
Click to expand...
I don't think operating an Essex on just 2 shafts as a carrier is really feasible. First, speed. On just 2 shafts, she's only going to make around 20 knots, not her design speed of 33. There may also be some issues with maneuvering the ship, specifically if you alternate which shafts you're running. The ship will handle differently with all 4 shafts turning than she will with just 2. And she'll handle differently with the outboard shafts operating than she will with the inboard shafts operating. You also can't leave the props attached to the inoperative shafts unless you're willing to eat a massive fuel burn penalty from the dead props creating a shit ton of additional drag. I guess you could windmill the props, but then that kinda defeats the whole point of operating on only two shafts since you'll need qualified enginemen to monitor the freewheeling shafts. And then you have an issue with the cats. Unless you stick with H8 hydraulic cats, you need all 8 boilers online to operate the steam cats. So unless you're planning to use an Essex as an LPH and only need 20 knots, you can't just cut down to 2 shafts and four boilers.

Even going with drastic cuts in crew size, I don't think you're getting an Essex anywhere close to Majestic class crews. A Majestic only needed 1200 men. Essex class carriers routinely went to sea with crews north of 3,000. Even if you reduce the size of the air wing, you're still taking no less than 1500 crew just for ship's crew, excluding the air wing personal
 
SSgtC said:
bobtdwarf said:
SSgtC said:
I think I might remember reading about that as well, but I can't recall how far the proposal got before dying. If i had to guess, it probably died right around the time Canada got a look at the manning requirements
Click to expand...
Manning requirements only become painful if you operate it at full strength. You could probably get by with a Mod-Majestic sized crew if you only operated the same size air wing and only two shafts(rotate the boilers and turbines to keep the hours of operation even on them). Sure you would have to paint the whole thing and make sure the empty spaces were dusted now and again which would increase operational costs a bit but it would get you a whole lot of flexibility in what aircraft you could operate and give the crew some room to spread out.. think NCO's in unused junior officers quarters etc. but probably not the most "efficient" cost per ton when compared to the Bonnie.
Click to expand...
I don't think operating an Essex on just 2 shafts as a carrier is really feasible. First, speed. On just 2 shafts, she's only going to make around 20 knots, not her design speed of 33. There may also be some issues with maneuvering the ship, specifically if you alternate which shafts you're running. The ship will handle differently with all 4 shafts turning than she will with just 2. And she'll handle differently with the outboard shafts operating than she will with the inboard shafts operating. You also can't leave the props attached to the inoperative shafts unless you're willing to eat a massive fuel burn penalty from the dead props creating a shit ton of additional drag. I guess you could windmill the props, but then that kinda defeats the whole point of operating on only two shafts since you'll need qualified enginemen to monitor the freewheeling shafts. And then you have an issue with the cats. Unless you stick with H8 hydraulic cats, you need all 8 boilers online to operate the steam cats. So unless you're planning to use an Essex as an LPH and only need 20 knots, you can't just cut down to 2 shafts and four boilers.

Even going with drastic cuts in crew size, I don't think you're getting an Essex anywhere close to Majestic class crews. A Majestic only needed 1200 men. Essex class carriers routinely went to sea with crews north of 3,000. Even if you reduce the size of the air wing, you're still taking no less than 1500 crew just for ship's crew, excluding the air wing personal
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Oh I was counting on it being no better than the 24 knots of the Majestic on 2 shafts.. you might need a few more than 1500 but you could get by with far, far fewer than 3000: IIRC I read perhaps 1800.

Point being it would not be any better than a Majestic, wouldn't be worse either and given the US boilers were substantially better on fuel than the RN ones of the era the 2 dragging/windmilling shafts might not be as horrible as we might think... yeah there are some things that will be a PITA but it could be done.
 
If this is any use?

Bonaventure from P.34 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: 1,370 (war)
However, I think 1,370 is her war complement when she was designed because every Jane's I've looked at (and I went back to 1949-50) only provides her war complement which was between 1,343 and 1,370.

Essex CVA from P.359 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: 2,000 (100 officers, approx. 1,900 enlisted men) plus approx. 1,500 assigned to attack air wig for a total of 3,500 per ship.

Essex CVS from P.360 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: 1,517 (87 officers, approx. 1,430 enlisted men) plus approx. 800 assigned to ASW air group for a total of 2,300 per ship.

Essex class LPH from P.419 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: approx. 1,000.
Troops: approx. 1,500.
I thought Jane's said that half of their machinery inactive, but when I checked it said no such thing. I also though Jane's said that their speed was in the low 20s but when I checked it said their maximum speed was 33 knots.

Essex class AVT from P.458 of Jane's 1968-69
As aircraft carriers their designed wartime complement was 3,448 (360 officers; 3,088 enlisted men); peacetime complement was 1,500 to 2,000 depending upon role.
 
zen said:
The Peach Plan with 2 Majestic CVs makes a lot of sense.
Click to expand...
For what it's worth the original plan (which was during World War II) was to acquire 2 Colossus/Majestic class and AFAIK the RCN wanted a post-war fleet built around 2 Colossus/Majestic class aircraft carriers, 2 Colony/Swiftsure class cruisers, 7 Tribal class destroyers and 4 Emergency type destroyers.

My (probably false) memory was that the RCN considered buying Reprisal in the 1940s, i.e. sometime between her cancellation and when she was scrapped. I didn't write it in Post 1,146 but my (probably false) memory was that the choice in the late 1940s was one Essex (Reprisal) or two Colossus/Majestic class.

However, as @BlackBat242's document starts at 1943 and doesn't mention any discussions about acquiring Reprisal in the period 1945-48 I'm inclined to believe him and not my memory.
 
This is the fate of Reprisal according to the NavSource website.
  • Fate: Construction of Reprisal was cancelled on August 12, 1945 when 52.3 percent complete. Launched in 1945 without ceremony to clear the slipway, her hull was utilized in experimental work in the Chesapeake Bay from 1946–48 (mostly to do with bomb damage in magazines). Although inspected during January 1949 with a view to completing her as an attack carrier, the plan was dropped and her hulk was sold on August 2, 1949 to Boston Metals Co., Baltimore, Md. She was scrapped starting in November 1949. (Source: DANFS, Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, located on the Naval Historical Center website. Special thanks to Ron Reeves, who provided additional information.)

This is the fate of Iwo Jima according to the NavSource website.
  • Fate: Iwo Jima was cancelled August 12, 1945. Her partially completed hull was scrapped. (Source: DANFS, Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, located on the Naval Historical Center website.)

Friedman said Reprisal was 40% complete at cancellation which was on 11.08.45 and in common with NavSource he didn't say how complete Iwo Jima was at cancellation.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
If this is any use?

Bonaventure from P.34 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: 1,370 (war)
However, I think 1,370 is her war complement when she was designed because every Jane's I've looked at (and I went back to 1949-50) only provides her war complement which was between 1,343 and 1,370.

Essex CVA from P.359 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: 2,000 (100 officers, approx. 1,900 enlisted men) plus approx. 1,500 assigned to attack air wig for a total of 3,500 per ship.

Essex CVS from P.360 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: 1,517 (87 officers, approx. 1,430 enlisted men) plus approx. 800 assigned to ASW air group for a total of 2,300 per ship.

Essex class LPH from P.419 of Jane's 1968-69
Complement: approx. 1,000.
Troops: approx. 1,500.
I thought Jane's said that half of their machinery inactive, but when I checked it said no such thing. I also though Jane's said that their speed was in the low 20s but when I checked it said their maximum speed was 33 knots.

Essex class AVT from P.458 of Jane's 1968-69
As aircraft carriers their designed wartime complement was 3,448 (360 officers; 3,088 enlisted men); peacetime complement was 1,500 to 2,000 depending upon role.
Click to expand...
of course it is of use! Given the numbers of aircraft the Mod-Majestic operated is about 1/3 of a CVA or about half of a CVS cut those numbers in half and take a wild stab in the dark on the other reductions... 1800 seems a plausible number for kicking around
 
The information I have concerning Magnificent and Bonaventure in Canadian service indicate a peacetime crew of 1,200 and 1,370 wartime for both.

Likewise, HMAS Melbourne shows a ship's crew of 1,008 and an airwing of 347, for a total of 1,355.

Sidney listed 1,100 peacetime & 1,300 war (Korea) in aircraft carrier service. As fast transport her crew was 608, and as training ship 550.
 

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