Boeing Starliner

TheKutKu said:
Starliner CFT is already, de facto, not cleared for emergency return anymore since yesterday (at least); what NASA said about Starliner still being approved is purely diplomatic.
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I don't think one follows the other. In an emergency, the Starliner is still possibly safer than jamming everyone into the Dragon capsule. "We think there is a much safer option" is different than saying "We wouldn't let them use that even in an emergency". I'd probably vote for them to leave on the Dragon jammed in like sardines, but the actual plan may still differ. Particularly in the time between now and installing the extra seats.
 
_Del_ said:
I don't think one follows the other. In an emergency, the Starliner is still possibly safer than jamming everyone into the Dragon capsule. "We think there is a much safer option" is different than saying "We wouldn't let them use that even in an emergency". I'd probably vote for them to leave on the Dragon jammed in like sardines, but the actual plan may still differ. Particularly in the time between now and installing the extra seats.
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I hope you're right, because if not the ISS is in the unprecedented situation of not having enough emergency seats for its crew until they put the makeshift seating on crew 8, but I have my source for this assertion.
 
_Del_ said:
I don't think one follows the other. In an emergency, the Starliner is still possibly safer than jamming everyone into the Dragon capsule. "We think there is a much safer option" is different than saying "We wouldn't let them use that even in an emergency". I'd probably vote for them to leave on the Dragon jammed in like sardines, but the actual plan may still differ. Particularly in the time between now and installing the extra seats.
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They are sending up two less on the next Crew Dragon to make room for the marooned Starliner crew to come back on. Don't see that as being jammed in like canned sardines...
 
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Mark Nankivil said:
They are sending up two less on the next Crew Dragon to make rom for the marooned Starliner crew to come back on. Don't see that as being jammed in like canned sardines...
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They are adding make-shift seats to the Dragon capsule currently up there (Crew 8) because that will be the only option for a window of time. They want it done before Starliner departs. We were talking about emergency use as a lifeboat, not the plan to bring them home in the next rotation.
 
TheKutKu said:
Starliner CFT is already, de facto, not cleared for emergency return anymore since yesterday (at least); what NASA said about Starliner still being approved is purely diplomatic.
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It’s already been confirmed that in case of a dire emergency they’ll use Starliner as the return craft. Once it goes they’ll have to go into the cargo section of the already docked Dragon, and once the new Dragon arrives they’ll use that.
 
Next ISS flight is Crew-9 in September 24.
The Crew is needed on ISS, also it cargo.
Follow Cargo flight is CRS-31 in October.
SpaceX can't use the Cargo version for return of both, it missing Seats, Crew controls and life-support.
However it could bring two seats and spaceX suits for Crew-9 return, theoretical...
 
Boeing is lucky to be in a duopoly with Airbus, and that the chineses brazilians and canadians have not breakeven to propose a third way.
They are also lucky that Airbus is running into A320 production surge bottlenecks.
This would have been so unthinkable 50 years ago. No more MDD nor Lockheed and Boeing on their knees, a boulevard to Europe airliners only capped by production rates... except too slow instead of sky-high.
280 Caravelles vs almost 20 000 A320 orders. This is insane.

As of July 2024, a total of 18,684 A320 family aircraft had been ordered and 11,582 delivered, of which 10,795 aircraft were in service with more than 350 operators.
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Michel Van said:
Next ISS flight is Crew-9 in September 24.
The Crew is needed on ISS, also it cargo.
Follow Cargo flight is CRS-31 in October.
SpaceX can't use the Cargo version for return of both, it missing Seats, Crew controls and life-support.
However it could bring two seats and spaceX suits for Crew-9 return, theoretical...
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Why do you say "theoretical?" That's basically the plan. Crew-9 launches with 2 crew instead of 4 plus seats and suits for Butch and Sunny, who stay on and return in Crew Dragon at the scheduled end of the Crew-9 mission. Total number of astronauts on ISS remains as planned, just the names get shuffled a bit.
 
Michel Van said:
Launching Crew-9 with only two Astronauts, result in two trained astronauts missing, who are needed on ISS.
build in the two seats reduce payload of Crew-9 to zero kg, but would be the fast solution for it.
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Butch and Sunny are also fully trained astronauts qualified to operate ISS systems and even go EVA.

“A couple years ago, we made the decision — knowing that this was a test flight — to make sure that we had the right resources, supplies and training for the crew, just in case they needed to be on ISS, for whatever reason, for a longer period of time,” said Dana Weigel, NASA’s manager of the International Space Station Program, during an Aug. 7 briefing.

“Butch and Suni are fully trained,” Weigel added. “They’re capable and current with EVA (spacewalks), with robotics, with all the things we need them to do.”
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Source: https://www.kcci.com/article/what-boeing-starliner-astronauts-will-do-in-space-2025/61967099
 
nypost.com

Exclusive | Boeing employees ‘humiliated’ that upstart rival SpaceX will rescue astronauts stuck in space: ‘It’s shameful’

“We have had so many embarrassments lately, we’re under a microscope,” a worker in the aerospace giant’s space program said. “This just made it, like, 100 times worse.…
nypost.com nypost.com

“It’s shameful. I’m embarrassed, I’m horrified,” the employee said.

With morale “in the toilet,” the worker claimed that many in Boeing are blaming NASA for the humiliation.

Boeing maintains its Starliner craft could safely get the astronauts back to Earth after putting them on the ISS during its maiden crewed flight on June 5.
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Are we witnessing the dawn of a new age at Boeing where managers are aware that, as a private entity, they can do more than taking penalties but chase their own idea as a private endeavor and make it a success?
 
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With morale “in the toilet,” the worker claimed that many in Boeing are blaming NASA for the humiliation.
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They should be blaming Boeing's own short-sighted, profit obsessed senior management that's run by bean-counters not by execs with an engineering background the way used to be before the Boeing/McD merger.

How long before Boeing starts being referred to as McBoeing?
 
NMaude said:
They should be blaming Boeing's own short-sighted, profit obsessed senior management that's run by bean-counters not by execs with an engineering background the way used to be before the Boeing/McD merger.

How long before Boeing starts being referred to as McBoeing?
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About 25 years ago.
 
First, let me preface this post by saying that I flew with Nick Hague in 2006 while we worked on the same project. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and women who are astronauts and care for their safe travel to and from space. Nick as you might recall was the American astronaut who was on the Soyuz that aborted several years back. I'm glad NASA did what they thought was best to return Butch and Suni to Earth safely. Over the many years in aerospace, I've had the opportunity to work with former/current NASA people charged with safety of spaceflight.

A bit of context, I've been a bit silent the last few years on topics I've usually posted something due to my prior experience with BCA. A little over two years ago I was approached about the opportunity to be part of the team within BCA to regain regulator trust. Rather than sit on the sidelines and complain, I accepted the challenge and tried to contribute to a solution. After 6-9 months I was no longer comfortable with my team, at 12 months I was actively looking to move, at 15 months I threatened to quit if not moved to another team and at 19 months I was head hunted and in my current job at another company. Coincidently, my last day was the day after the DOJ announced the violation of the DPA, I had given my resignation two weeks prior. There's a lot I could say, but won't for obvious reasons.

One of the jobs I was interviewed for was the Mission Assurance Program Lead (MAPL, pronounced "Maple") for Starliner. I received a call congratulating me on being selected for a final interview for a role that I never applied for, was never screened by HR for and didn't even have a job description for. The description once provided was vague, never once mentioned Starliner, only spaceflight safety. The first time I heard the word Starliner was in the first interview question, "Why did you decide to apply to be the MAPL for Starliner." My sense of professionalism prevented me from saying my real thoughts and I politely came up with an answer and finished the whole interview, since it was a senior level position.

Afterwards, I told my senior manager that I couldn't in good conscience sign my name on the dotted line that that spacecraft is safe for human spaceflight. Needless to say, the guy who did sign his name was one of the members of my panel. To my great relief I was not selected for the role. The X posts from Eric Berger caught my eye as well, since one of those former NASA guys connected me with Lee Rosen to get me an interview with SpaceX in 2012 when I got out of the AF. Couldn't agree more with his assessment, he's a standup guy. Elon had a pretty good eye for retired AF O6's several of whom I know/knew.
 
Huh - so this is what actual crewed spaceflight in the twenty-first century looks like. Curse you, Stanley Kubrick, and Gerry and Sylvia Anderson as well, for thoroughly poisoning an impressionable German teenage boy's mind in the latter part of the last millennium with your grandiose space visions - just maybe, I could have become a successful stock broker or a filthy rich investment banker rather than an aerospace engineer instead...
 
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martinbayer said:
Huh - so this is what actual crewed spaceflight in the twenty-first century looks like. Curse you, Stanley Kubrick, and Gerry and Sylvia Anderson as well, for thoroughly poisoning an impressionable German teenage boy's mind in the latter part of the last millennium with your grandiose space visions - just maybe, I could have become a successful stock broker or a filthy rich investment banker rather than an aerospace engineer instead...
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I didn't even try, I studied computer science and biology, I got a job as a civil servant in the tax administration, I specialized in tax advice for the rich and I have saved myself a lot of professional frustrations.
 
Justo Miranda said:
I didn't even try, I studied computer science and biology, I got a job as a civil servant in the tax administration, I specialized in tax advice for the rich and I have saved myself a lot of professional frustrations.
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Your loss. I was in the spaceflight industry for the last 41 years and it was great. And it was in all three sectors (military, commercial and civil). Got to work on 30 or so Shuttle missions (including all the military ones). Was part of one of the early new space projects (Spacehab). Supported 13 military ELV launches including the last Titan 34D and the first Titan IV. Directly involved with 25 NASA missions launched on Delta II, Atlas V, Delta IV Heavy, Falcon 9 and Ariane V and supported 13 other ones. Four Mars rovers, 1 solar probe, Lunar, Mars and Jupiter orbiters, weather sats, space station resupply, space telescopes, etc
 
southwestforests said:
Ya know, that's an idea, when Starliner serves them lemons, you go and make lemonade ...
:D
(seen on Tumblr just now)

View attachment 738799
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It's a good idea, when ET comes to exterminate us it will believe that we have degenerated and will stop considering us a danger. False alarm.
 

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That is more Joke on The Planet of the Apes
nuiqg04slnz21.jpg

Also illustration of current Boeing Management in Chicago...

...news
https://twitter.com/x/status/1828284426804961773
View: https://twitter.com/_jaykeegan_/status/1828284426804961773
 
Michel Van said:
That is more Joke on The Planet of the Apes
nuiqg04slnz21.jpg

Also illustration of current Boeing Management in Chicago...

...news
https://twitter.com/x/status/1828284426804961773
View: https://twitter.com/_jaykeegan_/status/1828284426804961773
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The orangutans in the film were a superior scientific caste that believed flight impossible. Then Charlton Heston makes a paper airplane and causes them an intellectual anaphylactic shock.
https://www.worldoflongmire.com/features/apes/planet5/planet5.html

https://havepaperwilltravel.blogspot.com/2016/07/paper-glider-scene-from-original-planet.html
 

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martinbayer said:
Even by the time I joined Boeing in August 1998, the saying in a former Rockwell campus in SoCal was that McDonnell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing's own money. I've heard this saying repeated countless times over the past few decades, and each time it made a little more sense to me.
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My father (who was a longtime Boeing engineer) has said the same thing. Nobody in his division liked the purchase.
 
NASA has set a date for the undocking of the Starliner, from the Space Bucket:


Even with the decision already made and the crew no longer returning on Starliner, teams are still busy testing the spacecraft in preparation for an upcoming undocking. One major hurdle is the fact that the main thruster complications have been going on within the spacecraft’s service module. This will be jettisoned and burn up upon reentry meaning the next week is some of the last time available to test and gather data.
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There also are concerns as to whether or not the vehicle will survive reentry which, no matter how small, is the reason it will be uncrewed. Here I will go more in-depth into the return date and time, final spacecraft testing, reentry concerns, and more.
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Full article here - https://thespacebucket.com/nasa-has-s...https://www.youtube.com/redirect?ev...Q&q=https://thespacebucket.com/&v=Axt3lujKkWg
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Credit:
SpaceX - / spacex https://www.youtube.com/c/SpaceX
NASA - / @nasa https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLA_DiR1FfKNvjuUpBHmylQ
Boeing - / @boeing https://www.youtube.com/@Boeing
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Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:34 - Go For Undocking
3:38 - The Re-Entry Process
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Confirming somewhat that the public affair dimension has outsized the technical aspects:

NASA exec [Unnamed].:
“And they made that perfectly clear to us [“Boeing wasn’t happy with the decision to cancel the manned return flight],”. But what’s the headline if there’s a catastrophic failure? It’s not ‘Boeing killed two astronauts,’ it’s ‘NASA killed two astronauts.’ So no, it’s better safe than sorry.”
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nypost.com

Exclusive | Boeing execs fought NASA in heated arguments about stranded astronauts flying home in leaky Starliner: ‘Wildly irresponsible’

“What’s the headline if there’s a catastrophic failure? It’s not ‘Boeing killed two astronauts,’ it’s ‘NASA killed two astronauts,” one NASA ex…
nypost.com nypost.com
 
“And they made that perfectly clear to us [“Boeing wasn’t happy with the decision to cancel the manned return flight],”. But what’s the headline if there’s a catastrophic failure? It’s not ‘Boeing killed two astronauts,’ it’s ‘NASA killed two astronauts.’ So no, it’s better safe than sorry.”
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Quite simply NASA doesn't want a repeat of the 2003 Columbia accident if something goes wrong during reentry with butch and sunni onboard, that would be an epic PR nightmare for NASA.
 
Not to mention for Boeing as well, remember Boeing is the main designers of the Starliner. If anything went tragically wrong on re-entry then it would not be good publicity for Boeing that is for sure, I would think that it would be worse overall for Boeing with the possibility of Starliner's contract getting cancled.
 
TomcatViP said:
Confirming somewhat that the public affair dimension has outsized the technical aspects:

"But what’s the headline if there’s a catastrophic failure? It’s not ‘Boeing killed two astronauts,’ it’s ‘NASA killed two astronauts.’ So no, it’s better safe than sorry.”
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They have neatly sidestepped that, as I said before. If nothing goes wrong, it is just " safety first ". No-one but Boeing will mutter. If they lose Starliner now, then it potentially becomes a "Boeing insisted we put Butch and Suni on it"-fiasco. By publicly complaining beforehand, Boeing employees have put themselves in a worse position, imo. Before I thought it'd be a short story if they lost the capsule unmanned. This (over-?)confidence gives it legs.

I still think it most likely comes back fine, but why risk two souls?
 
@_Del_ : Let´s be realistic, It´s not like anyone did asses a certain death for the returning crew. Boeing was confident that the risks were acceptable.

NASA should realize that Space isn´t anymore all about themselves. We just came out of 20 years of Medieval like stagnation in crew launch following their own failures. It´s probable that, rationally, they should not see themselves has the best vector in the risk assessment chain for a while and understand when to step back in such decisions taking process.

As a sign of the failure, let´s remember that despite the long planned test flight, nothing was in place to tackle the present situation. No extra cargo items, no redundancy in launch or no much of rescheduling for the daily occupation of the stranded astronauts.

And, personally, every time I see Butch with his chin sawed open by the helmet Zip, I can´t help myself refraining to jump under the table in shame for what has become the said so best of world engineering.
 
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