Are Sci Fi monsters and aliens too hard to kill?

[Orionblamblam]

Spiders actually have lungs (well, some of them), but it isn't helping them much; they don't have the proper blood circulation system to make use of it. To put it simply, it would took too much efforts to turn spider into anything even remotely as efficient as fish or toad (not even talking about gecko or mice).

Depending on how picky you want to be about defining insects and spiders such that you include the rest of the arachnids, the things could get *huge.* But that was underwater. And while I've no doubt underwater critters *could* evolve high intelligence, their ability to create industry seems limited due to the inability to have fire.

If they created reverse scuba systems that allowed them to spend extended periods on land, then it's just barely conceivable that they could eventually develop metallurgy and such. But that would seem a pretty unlikely series of events.




So in theory you could see Earth being invaded by sea scorpions wearing water-filled space suits. Likely their suits would be power armor to let them walk with all that added weight. Or maybe they've reduced it to a system that encapsulates their "book lungs", so they just wear a tank of water on their backs.

They'd be tough to beat to death with sticks and hard to stab with knives, but sledgehammers, drills, fire and good old fashioned firearms would make a mess of them.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Yes, that's pretty coarse, but it really makes for an easy set of expectations based on what the monster is like before you read the book or watch the movie.

*Cthulhu has entered the chat.*

 

[1635yankee]

Is there a reason we couldn't imagine insects or spiders that evolved lungs?

Spiders have lungs, well book lungs.

I'm not an evolutionary biologist or an entomologist, but I think that insects also never evolved oxygen-carrying pigments, such as hemoglobin. They'd need at least two basic changes to their body plan.

 

[1635yankee]

View attachment 732808

That sure sounds familiar...

Facebook and X?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Facebook and X?

 

[publiusr]

An alien attack likely comes in the form of an asteroid strike--aliens themselves never seen.

 

[Orionblamblam]

An alien attack likely comes in the form of an asteroid strike--aliens themselves never seen.

Depends on the motive. If it's just "wipe out potential competition," that's a reasonable approach, but if they want less likely "food and slaves and art and such," then, naw. also depends on the power and level of advancement. *Really* advanced aliens might dispense with the primitive asteroid strike and go with hucking a small black hole at the sun to cause it to spew massive CMEs, or if they're really good, tinker with the universal constant of gravitation and cause the sun to explode. Or just dump some trilithium into it, same result. Blow up the sun and you kill everything in the system, not just the one planet.

 

[martinbayer]

Maybe (but really most probably) it's just my onset boomer age, but I really don't get this obsession with (to our best knowledge rather than our worst imagination) completely illusory Freaky Friday outer space threats rather than what we are doing to our home planet *right now*? Now I like a good scifi yarn as much as the next clean shaven guy (take that, beirdos), but really, let's focus on *factual* threats to our existence that we could actually do something about rather than instead obsessing about some puerile fantasies of imaginary alien invasions or some such. But alas, such is the strange attraction of escapism - if you won't solve a real life problem, vigorously attack a nonexistent imaginary one instead...

 

[Arjen]

obsession

The key word.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Maybe (but really most probably) it's just my onset boomer age, but I really don't get this obsession with (to our best knowledge rather than our worst imagination) completely illusory Freaky Friday outer space threats rather than what we are doing to our home planet *right now*?

Paving it with ridiculous solar panels and wind turbines, rather than a few small, power-dense nuclear powerplants? If you want ridiculous sci-fi, it's the religious fervor around "green energy."

I typed more, but thanks to the censorious nature of the mods around here, I decided to save everyone some time and just deleted it.

 

[Arjen]

A familiar theme. From many threads.

 

[martinbayer]

Paving it with ridiculous solar panels and wind turbines, rather than a few small, power-dense nuclear powerplants? If you want ridiculous sci-fi, it's the religious fervor around "green energy."

I typed more, but thanks to the censorious nature of the mods around here, I decided to save everyone some time and just deleted it.

I *honestly* have no problem with truly safe (rather than cost *optimized* [ahem - 3 Mi Island/Chernobyl]) nuclear powerplants, and I genuinely hope to witness the first commercially viable fusion power plant (preferably in the USA - I shudder to think what analogous russian or chinese designs might look and work like), but I deeply believe that there is an optimized mix between safe nukes, solar, hydro, wind, geothermal, tidal, etc. (well, let's phase out those wretched hydrocarbons though, shall we?) -perhaps there is an AI technothriller to be had in that space?

 

[Dilandu]

Depending on how picky you want to be about defining insects and spiders such that you include the rest of the arachnids, the things could get *huge.* But that was underwater. And while I've no doubt underwater critters *could* evolve high intelligence, their ability to create industry seems limited due to the inability to have fire.

There is a problem here. The concentration of oxygen in the water did not really support high-capacity brain. Without gills of truly unreasonable size, high-metabolysm, big-brain creatures underwater would constantly have an oxygen problem.

 

[Orionblamblam]

There is a problem here. The concentration of oxygen in the water did not really support high-capacity brain. Without gills of truly unreasonable size, high-metabolysm, big-brain creatures underwater would constantly have an oxygen problem.

We're talking about aliens. Oxygen concentrations in alien oceans, along with different biochemistries that might do more with less, are all possible.

Of course, we might luck out and the invading sea scorpions come form a world Just Like Ours except with a notably higher O2 level, so they *have* to go about wearing supplemental oxygen at all times.

 

[Orionblamblam]

there is an optimized mix between safe nukes, solar, hydro, wind, geothermal, tidal, etc.

Indeed: 100% nukes, 0% solar/hydro/wind/geothermal/tidal, etc. sounds just about right. Terrestrial solar in particular is an environmental nightmare of epic proportions.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1772339177264148491

View: https://x.com/Roughneck2real/status/1772339177264148491

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779042309234905493

View: https://x.com/konstructivizm/status/1779042309234905493

(well, let's phase out those wretched hydrocarbons though, shall we?)

Naw. Let's ramp up nuclear *and* thermal deploymerization and use excess electrical capacity to turn sewage and biowaste and atmospheric carbon and whatnot into synthetic petroleum. Not only to power aircraft and shops and car, but to make plastic and other petrochemicals from because we're not going to stop needing *that* anytime soon.

-perhaps there is an AI technothriller to be had in that space?

Pfffah. A frivolous use of time and effort. Ranks up there with stories about alien invasions and asteroid impacts.

 

[martinbayer]

Right now, I'm looking at one of my Arthur C. Clarke's Life Science Library Man and Space editions, which at the bottom of page 174 features a cartoon of an antenna topped alien crawling away on all fours from a crash landed flying saucer in a desert featuring a single cactus thirsting with his tongue out "Ammonia! Ammonia!" (copyright 1962 the New Yorker Magazine, Inc.). Realistic or not? A moderately inquiring non-life sciences educated engineering mind would like to know...

 

[Arjen]

Hey! You're on topic!

 

[CJGibson]

Some quotes to ponder on life forms:

'Alter any event, ever so slightly and without apparent importance at the time, and evolution cascades into radically different channel.'
Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

“Oh f@ck, not another phylum.” Simon Conway Morris, on the variety of life forms in the Burgess Shale fauna.

'No life as we know it.' A bloke called Spock, (not the doctor) usually misquoted as 'It's life, Jim/Captain. But not as we know it.'


No saying what might be 'out there'

Older British readers might recall that the aliens in Gerry Anderson's UFO had liquid-filled helmets. Perhaps they had gills?

Chris

 

[Orionblamblam]

"Ammonia! Ammonia!" ... Realistic or not? A moderately inquiring non-life sciences educated engineering mind would like to know...

On occasion, Wikipedia is interesting:

Hypothetical types of biochemistry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Ammonia is relatively abundant in the universe and has chemical similarities to water. The possible role of liquid ammonia as an alternative solvent for life is an idea that goes back at least to 1954, when J. B. S. Haldane raised the topic at a symposium about life's origin."




The short form seems to be that ammonia-based biochemistry, taking the place of water, might be possible... but at either much higher pressure or much lower temperature. The former might imply a heavy-gravity planet, which argues against the denizens ever leaving their world; the latter implies much slower metabolism and evolution. Life on Earth sprang up damn near the moment liquid water on the surface became possible, but it might take a billion years on a cold ammonia-earth. And where Earth spent the better part of four billion years with single-celled life before going multicellular, ammonia biology might take vastly longer. Perhaps longer than the current age of the universe. But if said cold world is orbiting a red dwarf... it's got those billions of years to spare, as the star's natural lifespan is measured in *trillions* of years. The future might belong to their kind. But the present would seem to not include them, unless they're deep under the clouds of a gas giant or a super-earth.

 

[Hood]

On occasion, Wikipedia is interesting:

Hypothetical types of biochemistry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Ammonia is relatively abundant in the universe and has chemical similarities to water. The possible role of liquid ammonia as an alternative solvent for life is an idea that goes back at least to 1954, when J. B. S. Haldane raised the topic at a symposium about life's origin."

Which is probably the inspiration for the ammonia-loving aliens in Nigel Kneale's Quatermass II written and made in 1954-55.

Unseen aliens with physic powers are more effective in spooky terms but also were highly effective in that TV and film producers didn't have to cope with dodgy looking attempts to portray aliens that everyone laughed at (the alien in Quatermass Experiment was a rubber glove with plant bits stuck on...).
No one is ever going to be scared by the Aquaphibians in Stingray but the Mysterons in Captain Scarlet are far spookier, just the rings of the reformer beam after killing their zombified host.

I'd argue to obsession is in two parts: a) the fear that we're alone in the universe as the only intelligent species and imagining what else might be out there; b) the fear that something that might topple us as Earth's apex predator and how we might overcome whatever weaknesses we have by exploiting the weaknesses of the enemy - perhaps at its root a natural innate part of the human psyche for survival.

 

[Foo Fighter]

It strikes me that if the film/telly aliens were too easy to eliminate, there is a pun in there if you can find it, the film would end with boy scouts and girl guides using their 'woggles' to round 'em all up and corall them.

Who needs the common cold when the guardians of the planet are so experienced?

Yep, the smallest 'critters' on the planet will like as not do for the majority of aliens.

 

[sferrin]

Depends on the motive. If it's just "wipe out potential competition," that's a reasonable approach, but if they want less likely "food and slaves and art and such," then, naw. also depends on the power and level of advancement. *Really* advanced aliens might dispense with the primitive asteroid strike and go with hucking a small black hole at the sun to cause it to spew massive CMEs, or if they're really good, tinker with the universal constant of gravitation and cause the sun to explode. Or just dump some trilithium into it, same result. Blow up the sun and you kill everything in the system, not just the one planet.

That's what they did in the Vang series to wipe out a Thing-like parasitic race.

 

[martinbayer]

Hey! You're on topic!

How did that happen??? My sincere apologies...

 

[martinbayer]

I'd argue to obsession is in two parts: a) the fear that we're alone in the universe as the only intelligent species and imagining what else might be out there; b) the fear that something that might topple us as Earth's apex predator and how we might overcome whatever weaknesses we have by exploiting the weaknesses of the enemy - perhaps at its root a natural innate part of the human psyche for survival.

To be honest, with roughly around 8B of our species crawling all over this rocky ball (and with some truly nasty individual specimen among them - just witness the daily evening news) I sleep much better at night with the *hope* that we're alone in the universe as the only intelligent species...

 

[The K2]

I feel that whatever life beyond Earth will be intelligent and/or animalistic. Not counting microbial.

 

[martinbayer]

I feel that whatever life beyond Earth will be intelligent and/or animalistic. Not counting microbial.

You scare me.

 

[martinbayer]

Classical first world pseudo problem navel gazing: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...at-to-humanity?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

 

[Orionblamblam]

Classical first world pseudo problem navel gazing:

Greta Thunberg would like a word.

 

[Orionblamblam]

It strikes me that if the film/telly aliens were too easy to eliminate, there is a pun in there if you can find it, the film would end with boy scouts and girl guides using their 'woggles' to round 'em all up and corall them.

For most dramatic purposes, the Enemy needs to be a viable threat, but not an un-overcome-able one. *Most* stories will have humanity facing defeat and/or annihilation, but squeak out a victory in the end.

But then you have the field of Cosmic Horror (i.e. Lovecraftian horror) where the protagonists are faced with a threat that *cannot* be defeated. Elder gods, higher dimensional beings, vastly more advanced technology, fundamental forces of nature (see: "Puss in Boots The Last Wish," where the hero is faced with the literal embodiment of Death, an adversary he can delay but not defeat). These stories *can* be good, but are far harder to make widely popular. People in general want happy endings, and that's not the way the universe works.

 

[Foo Fighter]

For most dramatic purposes, the Enemy needs to be a viable threat, but not an un-overcome-able one. *Most* stories will have humanity facing defeat and/or annihilation, but squeak out a victory in the end.

But then you have the field of Cosmic Horror (i.e. Lovecraftian horror) where the protagonists are faced with a threat that *cannot* be defeated. Elder gods, higher dimensional beings, vastly more advanced technology, fundamental forces of nature (see: "Puss in Boots The Last Wish," where the hero is faced with the literal embodiment of Death, an adversary he can delay but not defeat). These stories *can* be good, but are far harder to make widely popular. People in general want happy endings, and that's not the way the universe works.

Entertainment outlets have long been able to completely screw up logic, reason and anything else that gets in the way of the needs of their narrative.

Usually I shut my mind to it but lately, I am more arsey than the average Hippo.

It must be tuesday............

 

[Michel Van]

Older British readers might recall that the aliens in Gerry Anderson's UFO had liquid-filled helmets. Perhaps they had gills?

nope the crew of UFO breathe oxygen rich liquid, do fast acceleration of the UFO Drive.
Side effect the liquid dye their skin green.

If you not know Gerry Anderson's UFO, its dam good TV show, years a head of it Time.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2PoXfZdYVU

for more look on YouTube

 

[Michel Van]

The Perry Rhodan series show very grim vision of Evolution
here civilisations arise and pass away
But few of them however evolve further and the civilisation become mental beings called "Superintelligent".
Those "Superintelligent" can be benevolently or totally dangerous.
They take civilisations as enforcer or enslave for there means,
Either to protect their realm or conquer the realm of neighbour Superintelligents and kill it.
you could understand them as Old one from Bablyon 5 series

But over time of millions of years the Superintelligents evolve into higher beings.
That outcome depends who they evolved as benevolently or totally dangerous beings.
Those benevolent become Cosmocrats the dangerous ones into Chaocrats.
you could understand them as elder Gods like Lovecraft, but their difference.

Cosmocrats and Chaocrats are no longer in understandable part of Univers.
From there realms they give orders to loyal Superintelligents and their civilisations.
This resemble more gigantic cosmic chess play, wer mankind is bacteria on one of the pawn.
Cosmocrats and Chaoscrats fight each other over control of Univers
They don't care if billions dies or entire galaxies are destroy so long they are winner.

But evolution don't stop here Cosmocrats and Chaoscrats become even higher beings.
The only one known is Thez a being feared and respected by Cosmocrats and Chaocrats.
It live in far far deep future of Univers and control part of surrounding Mulitvers.
If needed Thez rethink the local reality, to match his needs...
you could understand Thez as author that rewrite the Perry Rhodan series!

 

[uk 75]

Does distance rule out any Alien ET contact with us?
Apart from Giant Tortoise most lifeforms have pretty short lives before age and decay take their toll.
Multi-generational starflight seems difficult to work for more than a handful of people. And if their kids dont like the idea then what?

 

[uk 75]

nope the crew of UFO breathe oxygen rich liquid, do fast acceleration of the UFO Drive.
Side effect the liquid dye their skin green.

If you not know Gerry Anderson's UFO, its dam good TV show, years a head of it Time.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2PoXfZdYVU

for more look on YouTube

Andersontech deserves a thread all to itself. The great man mastered the art of finding dubious technology that looked good.
The three interceptors on Moonbase have only one anti UFO weapon each.
The submarine that launches its Sky 1 interceptor has to tilt to 45 deg to launch. Sky 1 gets round the dodgy British AAMs of the era by using what look like Matra SNEB pods.
And of course there are the clothes... Stringvests are a very British quirk.

 

[Desertfox]

Indeed: 100% nukes, 0% solar/hydro/wind/geothermal/tidal, etc. sounds just about right. Terrestrial solar in particular is an environmental nightmare of epic proportions.

You don't go 100% nukes, nuclear power is a great for base power but not all that good for power fluctuations. So you want 50% nuke with a mix for the rest of the other 50% depending on local conditions. Solar for example is perfect for states like Arizona and Texas where it matches almost perfectly with AC usage and you want it on already in-use space such as house roofs and parking lots.

 

[Orionblamblam]

you want it on already in-use space such as house roofs and parking lots.

Covering structures with PV arrays? That's fine. but people want to cover *regions* with arrays, as you see in the vids above. This will not only trash the existing ecosystem, it'll fark with the energy balance by turning bright desert regions dark. Making things *hotter.* Which will only make those PV arrays useful to one group...

 

[The K2]

Andersontech deserves a thread all to itself. The great man mastered the art of finding dubious technology that looked good.
The three interceptors on Moonbase have only one anti UFO weapon each.
The submarine that launches its Sky 1 interceptor has to tilt to 45 deg to launch. Sky 1 gets round the dodgy British AAMs of the era by using what look like Matra SNEB pods.
And of course there are the clothes... Stringvests are a very British quirk.

There used to be the Eagle Transporter Forum where we discussed all the tech from the Anderson shows. Members included some of the production crew. I did a lot of tech stuff for the UFO vehicles based on what was seen, written, or alluded to during the show’s production. Love the Nehru jackets, and the silver Moonbase outfits with the purple wigs!

 

[BlackBat242]

And of course there are the clothes... Stringvests are a very British quirk.

Fishnet shirts.

 

[shin_getter]

Aliens within our galaxy appears very unlikely with modern models. The likely odds is like 1 million galaxies colonized before meeting another civilization:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LceY7nhi6j4


Now a conflict of that scale would certainly be interesting....

 

[martinbayer]

The Perry Rhodan series show very grim vision of Evolution
here civilisations arise and pass away
But few of them however evolve further and the civilisation become mental beings called "Superintelligent".
Those "Superintelligent" can be benevolently or totally dangerous.
They take civilisations as enforcer or enslave for there means,
Either to protect their realm or conquer the realm of neighbour Superintelligents and kill it.
you could understand them as Old one from Bablyon 5 series

But over time of millions of years the Superintelligents evolve into higher beings.
That outcome depends who they evolved as benevolently or totally dangerous beings.
Those benevolent become Cosmocrats the dangerous ones into Chaocrats.
you could understand them as elder Gods like Lovecraft, but their difference.

Cosmocrats and Chaocrats are no longer in understandable part of Univers.
From there realms they give orders to loyal Superintelligents and their civilisations.
This resemble more gigantic cosmic chess play, wer mankind is bacteria on one of the pawn.
Cosmocrats and Chaoscrats fight each other over control of Univers
They don't care if billions dies or entire galaxies are destroy so long they are winner.

But evolution don't stop here Cosmocrats and Chaoscrats become even higher beings.
The only one known is Thez a being feared and respected by Cosmocrats and Chaocrats.
It live in far far deep future of Univers and control part of surrounding Mulitvers.
If needed Thez rethink the local reality, to match his needs...
you could understand Thez as author that rewrite the Perry Rhodan series!

As a native German born in the very same year that Perry Rhodan first reared its fugly head, I would characterize its socalled "space opera" penny dreadful novellas as 100% pure drivel. Next to Germans letting a native Austrian monster like hitler come to power, it might just be the second largest offensive abomination that this socalled "cultured" country unleashed on planet Earth. But I'm not bitter, oh no, siree...