Are Sci Fi monsters and aliens too hard to kill?

Exactly. And for basically any case outside of "aliens have near-human sensory system" - which is not exactly highly probable -
Why? While there is doubtless variation - hearing higher or lower tones, seeing into UV or IR, etc. - for simple navigation very little beats vision. Echolocation is good too, but that implies hearing. Staying safe from toxins implies an ability to detect and discern chemicals... taste and smell.

Sure, maybe picking up on magnetic fields, or alpha/beta emissions, stuff like that. But the basic senses needed for mundane organisms to survive seem like they'd be likely largely universal. Wildly different senses would imply wildly different environments, but even the differences between the bottom of the Marianas Trench and the tops of mountains and the middle of burning deserts all result in smell, sight and hearing.
 
seem like they'd be likely largely universal.
Tell the squids. Seem =/= Is.
Earth animals' internal regulation is done largely by electrochemical processes. This could be extended to communication by touch. Signal propagation is fast.
 
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Why? While there is doubtless variation - hearing higher or lower tones, seeing into UV or IR, etc. - for simple navigation very little beats vision. Echolocation is good too, but that implies hearing. Staying safe from toxins implies an ability to detect and discern chemicals... taste and smell.
It's not so much about inability to sence, but about inability to comprehend. For example; humans have excellent vision, moderately good hearing, and next to no sence of smell. For us, visual input is most important, audio is secondary, and sence of smell have basically no meaning.

Now let's imagine the echolocating specie with a good sence of smell but rather poor vision. What it could extract from human video data stream? The visual input is basically meaningless for them - they could understood that there are some indications in electromagnetic spectrum, but little beyond that. There is no smells or their analogues in human video - so that sence is completely left out. And while hearing works, it produce rather confusing results; humans did not produce neither ranging signals no meaningful doppler variations, their tones are very narrow and limited and background is essentially invisible.

Now let's imagine humans trying to comprehend the data from abovementioned aliens. First of all, there is no images at all (vision is not important for aliens). Second - there is a big chunk of data to encode smells, but even if humans would realize that, they would still not be able to sence that. And aliens acoustic is INCREDIBLY complicated, far beyond what humans could sence.

The result? While both species have vision, hearing and sence of smell, the difference in prioritizing of those sences made their data streams mutually incomprehensible. At best, humans could make some program for crude visualization of aliens echolocation, and aliens could similarely try to transform human visual data into crude echolocation picture. Both would be seriously imperfect and lack a lot of "obvious" for both species (because aliens have almost no concept of color, and humans have no concept of smell tones)
 
It's not so much about inability to sence, but about inability to comprehend. For example; humans have excellent vision, moderately good hearing, and next to no sence of smell. For us, visual input is most important, audio is secondary, and sence of smell have basically no meaning.

....

Now let's imagine humans trying to comprehend the data from abovementioned aliens.

If *you* can figure it out, what makes you think future humans coupled with advanced AI, or aliens that cross the stars, wouldn't figure it out? Humans can't see in X-Rays *at* *all, yet we've figured out how to interpret exactly that. Humans can't naturally detect most pheromones, but we know how to use critters that can, and we've built machines that can. We don't have to be able to do that *ourselves,* but our *tools* can. And that's good enough.

I have a distinct lack of talent with foreign languages. I tried learning German, French, Italian, Spanish and FORTRAN, and sucked at all of them. Look at text, and it's just gibberish. Listen to speech, and it's just gibberish. But now, as opposed to when I took German in High School, I can feed foreign text into the dullest of laptops and it'll tell me what it says. Now an app on a several year obsolete phone will translate spoken foreignese into comprehensible English on the fly. *I* don't need to be able to comprehend any of that foreign gibberish. My tools comprehend it for me and give me the info I need in a form that works for me.


There are limited means of transmitting data at useful speeds across space. Lasers, masers, radio, flashing lights... variations on the EM spectrum. Particle beams. Maybe someone really good could use gravitational waves. Vibrate the space-time continuum on higher dimensions or some such technomagic. But *nobody* is going to use sound, or pheromones, or heartfelt emotions as a means of interplanetary comms. EM emissions that can be intercepted can be interpreted, given sufficient time, smarts, experience and computational ability. And the more experience you have and figuring out aliens, the better you'll get at it.
 
There's that. Think. Squids communicate by coloured spots on their bodies. Communication by pheromones? Bees dance. Those are just Earth examples, now extrapolate to the real exotics exobiology might throw our way.
The fact that such communications can be understood by humans means that it isn't a huge thing for aliens, that probably have a lot of experience with different life on their own planet or different sensors and systems used in subsystems.

For evolved technological social aliens nothing about humans is probably "that" surprising as a planet is enough for a lot of social species to study.

The kind of aliens that would utterly fail to comprehend humanity would be stuff like space whales that just naturally operate in space without understand science and technology.

Exactly. And for basically any case outside of "aliens have near-human sensory system" - which is not exactly highly probable - would made Earth data streams utterly incomprehensible for aliens. No AI could possibly figure out the data that simply wasn't included into data stream. Aliens use echolocation? Humans imaged are flat and provide no ranging or Doppler data. Pheromones? Human data streams have almost zero mention of smell or anything like that. Even simple colours would be problematic, because aliens most likely have different visual spectrum.
No technological alien would be so dumb as to assume all systems would work as their organic base self, the construction of interstellar spaceships understand how form follows function, as they'd have built sensors to cover all emissions of energy and did cost trade offs for subsystems somewhere in their history. Just because a human eye works a certain way doesn't mean human civilization won't understand the 1 pixel reticle seeker or how a light field camera works.

If the aliens are light years away and trying to piece together stuff it might be difficult. If they are here, dissecting a few technological or biological systems is nothing. Even the most sophisticated human tech is trivial compared to simple biological systems and humans nonetheless know a good amount about biology. By reverse engineering a few systems the protocols can be cracked in no time.

Even without a direct hardware crack, sheer data can do a lot like how chatgpt can learn to play chess or write python by just observing. A powerful set of sensors can learn how humans and civilization operate just by looking even if internal experience have to be extrapolated.
 
If *you* can figure it out, what makes you think future humans coupled with advanced AI, or aliens that cross the stars, wouldn't figure it out? Humans can't see in X-Rays *at* *all, yet we've figured out how to interpret exactly that. Humans can't naturally detect most pheromones, but we know how to use critters that can, and we've built machines that can. We don't have to be able to do that *ourselves,* but our *tools* can. And that's good enough.
In other words; you would be getting not what aliens actually said, but what your self-learning AI is assuming they said. Considering how easily AI could invent things that did not actually exist, it's safe to assume that very soon you would be communicating not with aliens, but with whatever imaginary universe AI would build around them.

No technological alien would be so dumb as to assume all systems would work as their organic base self, the construction of interstellar spaceships understand how form follows function, as they'd have built sensors to cover all emissions of energy and did cost trade offs for subsystems somewhere in their history. Just because a human eye works a certain way doesn't mean human civilization won't understand the 1 pixel reticle seeker or how a light field camera works.
Then please just describe me a system to communicate smells with a dog. A simple, Earth dog.
 
One motive for aliens to visit Earth that hasn't featured here but drives human exploration of Space is curiosity.
Of course technology means they can learn everything about Earth and its inhabitants without visiting. But curiosity may drive them to want to experience Earth for themselves.
As we know from numerous comedy films and TV aliens can look just like us but may not always act like us.
If ET were as far above us as we are from other lifeforms here the result may be less humorous.
 
Spice by any other name. I think the relevant termini technici of the entertainment industry are, depending on the circumstances, "MacGuffin" or "Red Herring".
There are levels to such things. The MacGuffin in, say, "Pulp Fiction" is wholly unknown; it's a thing in a briefcase the main crime boss wants. The search for it drives the plot. What is it? Doesn't matter.

"Spice" in Dune drives the plot. "The One Ring" in Lord of the Rings drives the plot. However, those MacGuffins actually *do* stuff. What they are and how they work actually matter.

If your MacGuffin doesn't actually do anything, that's ok. but if it's an inert thing without agency... don't lavish efforts on explaining it. If you *do* go to great lengths to explain it... make it make sense. Don't spew word salad or silliness.
 
In other words; you would be getting not what aliens actually said, but what your self-learning AI is assuming they said.

In the same way Google Translate assumes things when it translates Russian into English.


Then please just describe me a system to communicate smells with a dog. A simple, Earth dog.

Talk to the DEA. They do that all the time.
 

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But curiosity may drive them to want to experience Earth for themselves.
As we know from numerous comedy films and TV aliens can look just like us but may not always act like us.
If ET were as far above us as we are from other lifeforms here the result may be less humorous.

Religions and folklore have covered this ground, with gods walking among men just to see how things are going. They're usually not overly thrilled with what they find (except Zeus, when he finds a hottie).
 
Religions and folklore have covered this ground, with gods walking among men just to see how things are going. They're usually not overly thrilled with what they find (except Zeus, when he finds a hottie).
And Goddesses...
 

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If ET were as far above us as we are from other lifeforms here the result may be less humorous.
The big problem with the future is that humanity itself is looking at alien descendants. Literal Von Neumann dug from the grave and colonializing the universe is a funny but almost practical proposition. Beyond that and its the fight between 300 IQ estimated genetically optimized and something like metamorphosis of prime intellect.

That is why deep future narratives can hardly be serious and be relatable to the reader.
 
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That is why deep future narratives can hardly be serious and be relatable to the reader.

I wrote (and continue to write) "space opera" sci-fi set 500 years down the line. The characters are recognizably normal humans, flitting about the cosmos in hyperdrive vessels. Thing is: I can Willing Suspension Of Disbelief the existence of near-peer aliens, AI that are like regular people, grav-plating and hyperdrive, but I couldn't get past "there's no chance of normal humans that far down the line." My solution: the AI "transcend" to godlike status in the early 22nd century; humans transcend to their own godhood not long after. But not *all* AI, and not *all* humans. And when they do, they shut the door behind them. The godlike AI make sure that future AI can't be developed that are super-intelligent *and* sentient; the godlike humans make sure that humanity stays recognizably human. Why? Partially because they're assholes and don't want anyone else coming around messing up their shiny new ten-dimensional utopias, but also because they're simply interested to see what people do if forced to stay regular folks while technology continues to advance around them and they continue to spread out into a universe filled with things humans are just not prepared for.

Not that I think this is necessarily the way things will go, but it was the best solution to allow me to tell the stories I wanted to tell without that giant gaping plot hole in the shape of "what about the Singularity."

So for several centuries human civilization has existed with the sure and certain knowledge of the existence of entities akin to the Greek gods. Entities that generally don't interfere or make their presence known, but do pop in from time to time and demonstrate horrifying incomprehensibility. Societies reaction? "Meh."
 
Ahh, just watch them when they come to English where you drive on parkways and park on driveways; and you wear boots and bonnets in Oklahoma while your cars have boots and bonnets in Oxford.

It is a pretty good bet that their efforts to comprehend English will so traumatize the aliens they will be driven to require lifetime psychotherapy and thus abandon their efforts to invade Earth.

Of course, they also wear boots and bonnets (the latter probably only at a renfaire or by re-enactors) in the UK. Every language has its weirdnesses; I'm sure the posited alien's language will, too.
 
I'm not much of a sci-fi buff, but I was impressed with the White Spike alien queen from The Tomorrow War movie.

Regards
Pioneer
 
The features that make apes rather than birds, reptiles, insects or quadropeds the evolved intelligence on Earth seem likely to be the ones needed wherever life exists.
It is hard to see social development, tool using or language evolving otherwise. Birds live in groups, can communicate, but it is hard to see the beak or wing evolving to be a five fingured limb able to use sophisticated tools.
 
The features that make apes rather than birds, reptiles, insects or quadropeds the evolved intelligence on Earth seem likely to be the ones needed wherever life exists.
It is hard to see social development, tool using or language evolving otherwise. Birds live in groups, can communicate, but it is hard to see the beak or wing evolving to be a five fingured limb able to use sophisticated tools.

To quote an old Darren Naish blog:

The reason that we humans have the body shape that we do is not – I think – because it’s the ‘best’ body shape for a smart, big-brained biped to have, it is instead the result of our specific lineage’s evolutionary history. Given that, so far as we know, the humanoid body shape has evolved just once, we simply have no way of knowing whether it’s a particularly ‘good’ morphology or not. Furthermore, the humanoid body shape is not a prerequisite for the evolution of big brains given that brains proportionally as big as, or bigger than, those of hominids are found in some birds and fish (that's right: humans do NOT have the proportionally biggest brains).

-- https://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/11/dinosauroids-revisited.html
 
it is hard to see the beak or wing evolving to be a five fingured limb able to use sophisticated tools.
I for one welcome our new racoon overlords.

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Science fiction has shown us the future. one where trash pandas become masters of technology, wielding advanced automatic weapons while riding around on specialized ambulatory trees.
 
That's more possible, yes. Still, there would be enormous headache with going through all biochemical barriers...
I remember reading about how electric eels can have an effect on DNA of other fish.

A nearby magnetar might spark evolution a bit---not the shimmer from ANNIHILATION but enough to bridge gaps, flip chirality every so often--so this world could be a universal donor of sorts.
 
I have a distinct lack of talent with foreign languages. I tried learning German, French, Italian, Spanish and FORTRAN, and sucked at all of them. Look at text, and it's just gibberish. Listen to speech, and it's just gibberish. But now, as opposed to when I took German in High School, I can feed foreign text into the dullest of laptops and it'll tell me what it says. Now an app on a several year obsolete phone will translate spoken foreignese into comprehensible English on the fly. *I* don't need to be able to comprehend any of that foreign gibberish. My tools comprehend it for me and give me the info I need in a form that works for me.
Thanks to massive databases of vocabularies and meanings, that was compiled and correlated by lost of humans that knew those languages (it doesn't matter whether the translations and such were done just for this or over scores (or hundreds) of years).

Something that the aliens' equipment WON"T have, and neither would yours.
 
In the same way Google Translate assumes things when it translates Russian into English.
Worse. In the same way you mistype "tell me about the plot of Tolkien's "Lord of Therings" book" to ChatGPT, and, not understanding the question but eager to answer it, it would invent a whole new "Tolkien's" book about fictional kingdom of Therings.
 
Worse. In the same way you mistype "tell me about the plot of Tolkien's "Lord of Therings" book" to ChatGPT, and, not understanding the question but eager to answer it, it would invent a whole new "Tolkien's" book about fictional kingdom of Therings.
You assume that AI systems won't improve. We've have auto-correct system in place for *decades* now. Sure, they kinda suck sometimes, but give it a century.
 
A Rosetta Stone moment might take centuries
And maybe far less. Rosetta helped figure out a *dead* language. But if you wanted to figure out a living one, one approach would be to raise a baby in both languages, and when it's old enough it can serve as a translator. If your baby happens to be an AI based on quantum computers centuries more advanced than what we have, that baby might grow up in minutes.
 
You assume that AI systems won't improve. We've have auto-correct system in place for *decades* now. Sure, they kinda suck sometimes, but give it a century.
I assume that there is no magic and science could not be replaced with "pointing tricoder on things". Space opera work from simplifications, yes, but sci-fi have a "science" first, you know.
 
And maybe far less. Rosetta helped figure out a *dead* language. But if you wanted to figure out a living one, one approach would be to raise a baby in both languages, and when it's old enough it can serve as a translator. If your baby happens to be an AI based on quantum computers centuries more advanced than what we have, that baby might grow up in minutes.
Human language. And Rosetta stone was an extremely lucky find, since it hold one text on both unknown (Egyptean) and known (Greek) languages. Aliens first visiting Earth would hardly have something as convenient.

For the example of opposite, look at Linear A language of anicent Minoans from Crete. Despite having a lot of similarities with Linear B of Mycenaean - which IS already dechiphered - translation efforts in Linear A so far were unsucsessfull.
 
look at Linear A language of anicent Minoans from Crete.
A good example for space explorers who stumble across, say, a single derelict spacecraft with a few visible markings. But if you're trying to communicate with a living civilization, you should have a *lot* to work with, including real-time reactions from native speakers.
 
I assume that there is no magic and science could not be replaced with "pointing tricoder on things".
Depends on the tricorder. A device that incorporates sensors we today couldn't hope to understand, coupled with the recorded sum total of human (or whoever) knowledge, and equipped with some form of artificial intelligence? Yes, such a device could understand a *lot* very quickly.
 
A good example for space explorers who stumble across, say, a single derelict spacecraft with a few visible markings. But if you're trying to communicate with a living civilization, you should have a *lot* to work with, including real-time reactions from native speakers.
Yeah, assuming that they react on what you think they react, and not on something else. Again; I agree, that some communication would most likely be eventually possible. What I disagree with, is that such communications could be easy and trivial. In my opinion, such program would require massive scientific efforts for both sides, and each message would need to be analysed, decoded, put into context of what we presume about aliens way of thinking, and even then we would have only probable meaning, not exact one.
 
It might only be a one way problem.
If ET was lurking about with listening devices, they may have full command of Earther languages-assuming they were studying us for a long time.

We would be caught flatfooted
 
I'm surprised that none of Nigel Kneale's aliens from the four Quatermass series have cropped up in this thread yet.

The Quatermass Experiment (1953)
A British spaceship (designed and built by Dr Bernard Quatermass, launched from Woomera) crash lands near London on its return to earth, only one of the astronauts aboard is left and barely alive. The other two have vanished. An alien lifeform had infiltrated the ship, it can absorb plant and animal cells for energy to grow and mutate and somehow stores the consciousness of its victims. The surviving astronaut Victor Caroon slowly mutates into a plant-like alien form, should it spore then it could absorb all living matter on earth. It's killed in Westminster Abbey - in the original BBC TV series Quatermass convinces the consciousness of the three crewmen inside the creature to turn against it and destroy it; in the 1955 Hammer film version (The Quatermass Xperiment) its killed with the electrical output of Battersea power station to burn it alive whilst it hangs around on some scaffolding.

Quatermass II (1955)
Dr Bernard Quatermass is now attempting to get a Moon base built, but instead comes up against Whitehall red tape and his prototype nuclear-powered rocket blows up on the pad at Woomera. He becomes drawn into strange events as strange small meteorites land across Northern Britain. When picked up they spray ammonia gas and a distinctive mark appears on the victim. Again the alien lifeform is an infiltrator, taking over its human host by some form of collective consciousness that binds all the aliens. The alien uses the hollow meteorite as a protective shell, the ammonia inside is their usual atmospheric environment (Quatermass deduces they come from a Saturnian moon) and they die when exposed to Earth's atmosphere but not before they take over the host's mind. The meteorites are launched from a larger asteroid which orbits earth every 14 hours.

It turns out that many government members have been taken over by the aliens and have the mark. Under the alien consciousness they are building a "synthetic food plants" (it is reported others have been built around the world implying a global invasion) but which are actually producing ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen and methane in giant domes as biospheres where the collected meteorites are emptied safely, growing into massive creatures. Quatermass succeeds in destroying the dome, killing the alien inside on exposure to oxygen and then launches his remaining unsafe nuclear rocket to destroy the asteroid which frees all the infiltrated people, presumably having destroyed the centre of the collective alien consciousness.

Quatermass and the Pit (1958)
During excavations in London a prehistoric humanoid is discovered dated, as 5 million years old. Then an unexploded bomb is found, which actually turns out to be a crashed spaceship and more humanoids are discovered. Dr Quatermass gets involved and dead 3-legged insectoid aliens are discovered in the spaceship. This is linked to supernatural events which occur (and which have always occurred in the area of the spaceship whenever the ground is disturbed). It turns out that the insects are Martians and that they had taken apes and primitive pre-humans and genetically altered them to give them abilities such as telepathy, telekinesis and other psychic powers, before returning them to Earth in an attempt to reshape man into their own minds and abilities as life on Mars dies as its climate changes to ensure their race lives on in some form but they become extinct before completing their work but some imprints remain in humans, supernatural beliefs and the devil being a folk remembering of the aliens.

An accidental discharge of electricity into the spaceship brings it to life, rekindling the dormant psychic powers in humans leading to killings of those without the alien genes. Eventually a mass of iron grounded to wet earth is thrust into the mass of energy which was the spaceship (Quatermass remembers that water and iron defeats the devil), which discharges and breaks the psychic powers.

Quatermass (1979)
We never see the alien in this series. The danger is an alien spacecraft/satellite which harvests crowds of young humans for human protein for an alien civilisation. Beacons were buried into the earth millions of years ago, which can detect the noise, vibration and scent of masses of humans, which activates an energy beam which vaporises the humans and takes the protein. These beacons lay underneath stone circles, megaliths and other prehistoric temple structures around the world, which were built by humans as markers of the dangers (Quatermass deduces that what are thousands of years on Earth might only be seconds for whatever alien life the beam is operated by). Not only that but the spaceship has the ability to psychically affect the young, making them angry and violent but anti-technology and anti-civilisation (think hippies crossed with punks) who then gather at the hidden beacons and are harvested. Quatermass sets up a dummy gathering, using synthetic noise and scent of a massive gathering of youths to lure the beam, exploding a 35kT nuclear bomb under it - not to destroy it, but to send an energy wave that makes the spaceship stop its task by alerting it to some kind of danger to warn it off.

So four very different aliens, lots of psychic stuff but killing them is usually elemental stuff - electricity, iron, water and oxygen.
 
The features that make apes rather than birds, reptiles, insects or quadropeds the evolved intelligence on Earth seem likely to be the ones needed wherever life exists.
It is hard to see social development, tool using or language evolving otherwise. Birds live in groups, can communicate, but it is hard to see the beak or wing evolving to be a five fingured limb able to use sophisticated tools.

But do note that birds' wings evolved from arms (many non-avian dinosaurs were bipedal).

Insects have a problem: their size is severely constrained by their method of breathing and passing oxygen around their body.

Why primates seem to be unique in developing what we'd recognize as intelligent is likely happenstance.

As an aside, all tetrapods started by walking on four legs. Bipedalism is a derived trait.
 
But do note that birds' wings evolved from arms (many non-avian dinosaurs were bipedal).

Insects have a problem: their size is severely constrained by their method of breathing and passing oxygen around their body.

Why primates seem to be unique in developing what we'd recognize as intelligent is likely happenstance.

As an aside, all tetrapods started by walking on four legs. Bipedalism is a derived trait.
Is there a reason we couldn't imagine insects or spiders that evolved lungs?
 
When it comes right down to it, there are really only two types of 'monsters' in sci-fi:

Type A. These are like say, Godzilla. They're singular (or few), huge, powerful, highly visible, and normally end up defeated by one means or another.

Type B. These are the insidious ones. They're usually numerous, often unseen or difficult to pin down, and more often than not, they end up winning. The Thing, Pod people, Alien(s), are examples of this.

Yes, that's pretty coarse, but it really makes for an easy set of expectations based on what the monster is like before you read the book or watch the movie.
 
Is there a reason we couldn't imagine insects or spiders that evolved lungs?
Spiders actually have lungs (well, some of them), but it isn't helping them much; they don't have the proper blood circulation system to make use of it. To put it simply, it would took too much efforts to turn spider into anything even remotely as efficient as fish or toad (not even talking about gecko or mice).
 
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