Interceptors for Ireland

DWG said:
As Irish citizens can already serve in the British Army (I'm not clear if that extends to the RN or RAF), the simple solution* would be something similar to the Baltic Air Policing scheme, supplemented by Eire sponsoring a few Air Corps officers through RAF fast jet training and progressing to exchange postings with RAF squadrons.

* On cost grounds, bit of a bugger on Irish neutrality grounds, though.
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That's why I suggested some Gripens. Relatively cheap to operate, a decent number available used, reasonably capable.

Or, honestly, this is exactly the type of situation that the FA-50 is for. Or if the T-7 can be armed with AMRAAMs.
 
Scott Kenny said:
That's why I suggested some Gripens. Relatively cheap to operate, a decent number available used, reasonably capable.

Or, honestly, this is exactly the type of situation that the FA-50 is for. Or if the T-7 can be armed with AMRAAMs.
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I'm suggesting Eire not operate their own aircraft, but contribute a few pilots to the RAF fighter force, which assumes the air policing role for them.
 
Scott Kenny said:
That's why I suggested some Gripens. Relatively cheap to operate, a decent number available used, reasonably capable.

Or, honestly, this is exactly the type of situation that the FA-50 is for. Or if the T-7 can be armed with AMRAAMs.
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If not for age, second hand mirage.

Declared need is airspace policing/interceptor.
They don't need fancy abbreviations, nor it is for air combat.

Just shortest response time (readiness, take off, climb) with enough range. Enough maneuverability to react to civilian props.
 
Ainen said:
If not for age, second hand mirage.

Declared need is airspace policing/interceptor.
They don't need fancy abbreviations, nor it is for air combat.

Just shortest response time (readiness, take off, climb) with enough range. Enough maneuverability to react to civilian props.
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If age is a hindrance with Mirage, would secondhand Rafales be an option? Would any be available for sale to Ireland?
 
phantomphan said:
If age is a hindrance with Mirage, would secondhand Rafales be an option? Would any be available for sale to Ireland?
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Yes. France has started dumping the oldest Rafales - F2, Ada, 2004 - to Croatia, Greece, and a few other nations (from memory).
The last Mirage 2000 in French service are the 2000D bombers (55 out of 86 procured 30 years ago) and the 2000-5F (30, 6 of them dispatched to Ukraine).
The are additional 2000-5 / 2000-9 in UAE and Qatar, plus Greece - albeit the later are not for sale.
 
DWG said:
Pity the Channel Tunnel was actually authorised in 1986 under Thatcher and Mitterand.
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Monies were diverted from defense. Period. A Channel tunnel was first proposed in the 1800s. Look it up. The strength of the British Army in 1990 compared to today.
 
edwest4 said:
Monies were diverted from defense. Period. A Channel tunnel was first proposed in the 1800s. Look it up. The strength of the British Army in 1990 compared to today.
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Defence was cut, just as the US massively slashed defence over the same period. It had absolutely nothing to do with the Chunnel, which was built and financed by private enterprise.
 
DWG said:
I'm suggesting Eire not operate their own aircraft, but contribute a few pilots to the RAF fighter force, which assumes the air policing role for them.
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And I was replying on the Irish Neutrality point.

Arranging an Irish Squadron in the RAF would be cheaper for sure, but that also really stretches Ireland's neutrality.

An option that better respects Irish neutrality would be second-hand Mirages/Rafales, Gripens, etc, or one of the armed LIFTs like the FA-50.
 
Scott Kenny said:
And I was replying on the Irish Neutrality point.

Arranging an Irish Squadron in the RAF would be cheaper for sure, but that also really stretches Ireland's neutrality.
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A fair point. However, no reason RAF personnel can’t be seconded to the IAC. Any from Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland or those with immediate Irish ancestors could just move sideways into the IAC - if they and their respective services were agreeable.

Scott Kenny said:
An option that better respects Irish neutrality would be second-hand Mirages/Rafales, Gripens, etc, or one of the armed LIFTs like the FA-50.
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However, any IAC interceptors are going to operating a significant amount of their time out in the North Atlantic. it can be a tough place to lose your only engine.
 
An Irish presence in the RAF would be a non starter politically as well as financially. Why on earth should we accept even more responsibility for Irish sovereignty?

Not that long ago, we were being told that the RAF was to be denied access to Irish airspace and frankly the response from the Irish electorate would hardly be positive either.

The drive to self defence SHOULD give them a leg up in the revenue stream, from their own services to their local economy and that is a huge positive for them.
 
starviking said:
However, any IAC interceptors are going to operating a significant amount of their time out in the North Atlantic. it can be a tough place to lose your only engine.
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Modern engines are a lot more reliable than older engines.

But if you absolutely insist, well, you can buy M346s (which have a pair of F124s). Or I'm sure the US could dig some Hornets out of the Boneyard.
 
martinbayer said:
I have this vision of Angel Interceptors with the Spectrum symbol replaced by a Shamrock...
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And oh, I forgot: Of course all the pilotesses would be red haired, green eyed, and freckled - a man can dream...

On a related note, during my one and so far only visit to Israel in October 1994 for the 45th International Astronautical Congress in Jerusalem, this was *exactly* the look of a female Israeli soldier in full combat gear I encountered while walking a downtown city street - one of those few utterly surreal moments in my life that make me vaguely entertain a glitching simulation hypothesis...
 
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May I suggest that as long as the intercepting jet fighter has one Irish citizen onboard, then it can claim to be protecting Irish air space.

An extreme example of this is a US Drug Enforcement Agency aircraft flying in Jamaican airspace with a junior Jamaican police constable onboard. That allows them to claim that the arrest was made by a Jamaican police officer.

This legal side-step favours two-seater interceptors.
 
riggerrob said:
May I suggest that as long as the intercepting jet fighter has one Irish citizen onboard, then it can claim to be protecting Irish air space.

An extreme example of this is a US Drug Enforcement Agency aircraft flying in Jamaican airspace with a junior Jamaican police constable onboard. That allows them to claim that the arrest was made by a Jamaican police officer.

This legal side-step favours two-seater interceptors.
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Probably that should be a minimum of three seats then to accommodate the pilot, constable, and (in flight?) arrestee, so to avoid potential overcrowding I would recommend to move on from conventional fighters/interceptors/interdictors/COIN aircraft to lightly armed VTOL SSBJs - can I have a preliminary conceptual design contract, please (and as an aside, I'd like to have a special clause to pitch it for any upcoming superheroes movies as well, yes)?
 
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Meant to post this a few days ago:
The State has lost its appeal to block a case seeking to compel officials to confirm if Ireland has a secret deal with Britain to allow the RAF to enter Irish airspace in the event of a terrorist or international attack.


The decision was confirmed in a Court of Appeal ruling on a case involving allegations of a "secret deal" dating back to the aftermath of the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US; official refusals to confirm or deny the deal's existence for national security reasons; and claims any such agreement would be unconstitutional if it exists.


The long-standing case was taken by Independent senator Gerard Craughwell, who has alleged there is a secret deal between Ireland and Britain which allows the RAF to enter Irish airspace and effectively police the location in the event of a terrorist or international attack.


It is Senator Craughwell's view that this alleged deal was made in the aftermath of the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US, a view his legal team argues was indicated by a Dáil statement from then taoiseach Bertie Ahern to then Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny on 16 November 2005, when Mr Ahern said "there is co-operation and a pre-agreed understanding on those matters".


While the State formally neither confirms nor denies the existence of any such agreement, it is Senator Craughwell's view that such a deal would be in breach of Article 29.5.1 of the Constitution, which states: "Every international agreement to which the State becomes a party shall be laid before Dáil Éireann."


Senator Craughwell's legal team have previously argued that any alleged deal is an international agreement, and that there is no evidence that it was ever laid before Dáil Éireann for a vote or lodged with the United Nations which the State is obliged to do in terms of any treaty.
[snip]
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Ireland's neutrality made sense when it could always count on the deep relationship with the USA.
With its old enemy England outside the EU I would think that some arrangement with France makes the most sense.
 
uk 75 said:
Ireland's neutrality made sense when it could always count on the deep relationship with the USA.
With its old enemy England outside the EU I would think that some arrangement with France makes the most sense.
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Honestly, just buying a squadron or so of M346s would cover the need for Air Policing. Wouldn't even need radar-guided missiles on them. A gun pod (for the tracers to shout "hey, dumbass!!!" at high volume) and 2-4 Sidewinder/ASRAAM.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Except that I consider getting an Air Policing squadron to be part of LOA2, not LOA3.


While Ireland should be aiming towards LOA3, the funding increase for a dozen aircraft is easier to sell as part of LOA2.


Emphasis mine, this to me implies funding the IDF to roughly 2% of GDP.
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Buying fighters has been marked for LoA3 and right now is a long term goal even if Harris was serious and not being Harris. Besides given the amount of rumours floating round the AC will be busy with the replacement of the helicopter fleet, and maybe the PC9s, not too mention the Radar buy when it happens will still take years to come online.

Ireland tends not to buy equipment outside of European suppliers, so there's that limit, seems the French are pushing hard for an Arms package but who knows if it happens.
 
sparky42 said:
Buying fighters has been marked for LoA3
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Which is a terrible mistake IMO.


sparky42 said:
Ireland tends not to buy equipment outside of European suppliers, so there's that limit, seems the French are pushing hard for an Arms package but who knows if it happens.
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M346 Masters seem to be the right combination of two engines but otherwise cheap to operate.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Which is a terrible mistake IMO.



M346 Masters seem to be the right combination of two engines but otherwise cheap to operate.
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It's hard to see how the AC with its current strength would be able to operate fighters, not too mention buying them without even having Primary Radar systems operating first seems a bit mixed up. Really for Irish needs there should be higher priority investments for the AC first.
 
Scott Kenny said:
M346 Masters seem to be the right combination of two engines but otherwise cheap to operate.
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Subsonic day aircraft doesn't really work as airspace policing interceptor. We live in a world mostly flying at M=0.8, 24/7.
Out of this extended family of aircraft, only L-15B counts, but it's Chinese.

Best legacy match was Mirage 2000c. Essentially perfect, no changes needed. But it isn't available on the market anymore.

Best currently produced one, I guess, is Gripen E. Normal JAS-39C/D isn't long-ranged enough in peacetime intercept profile.
 
Grey Havoc said:
Might make for a good emergency stopgap. A very short term one only though.
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For Ireland? Given its not in full production or even an armed variant at this stage why would Ireland even look at it over the other armed trainers? I mean surely after the absolute shambles of being first version users for dauphin and 139's there should be a rule in Baldonnel "never be the first user for anything!"
 
Ainen said:
Subsonic day aircraft doesn't really work as airspace policing interceptor. We live in a world mostly flying at M=0.8, 24/7.
Out of this extended family of aircraft, only L-15B counts, but it's Chinese.
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M346 are (barely) supersonic, like M1.2 or so.


Ainen said:
Best legacy match was Mirage 2000c. Essentially perfect, no changes needed. But it isn't available on the market anymore.

Best currently produced one, I guess, is Gripen E. Normal JAS-39C/D isn't long-ranged enough in peacetime intercept profile.
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Both of those are single engine.

If you're determined to have a twin-engine aircraft because the North Atlantic is a terrible place to lose an engine, I think you're looking at Super Hornets if the M346 isn't acceptable. There should be a couple dozen that aren't timed out in the Boneyard, if you can't jump in on the tail end of the USN order in 2027. And lightly armed Super Bugs have a 1275nmi range. 200nmi out to the edge of the ADIZ, at least 2 hours on patrol (at 400kt patrol speed, slowing to 300kt would get you almost 3 hours), 200nmi back.
 
Scott Kenny said:
M346 are (barely) supersonic, like M1.2 or so.
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Supersonic without reheat here matters to little; we need not not just some speed to cross mach one(to shoot down unidentified civilian airliner with bvraam?), we need actual speed (to cover distance as fast as possible), rate of climb, and then efficiency there to understand what's going on.
Scott Kenny said:
Both of those are single engine.
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Which usually equals much cheaper...

Super hornet is a lot of plane. It is literally twice the Gripen E, for worse intercept performance (slower) without range gain.
It's also optimized for anything but intercept performance, in this sense being worse than legacy hornet.
Scott Kenny said:
If you're determined to have a twin-engine aircraft because the North Atlantic is a terrible place to lose an engine, I think you're looking at Super Hornets if the M346 isn't acceptable. There should be a couple dozen that aren't timed out in the Boneyard, if you can't jump in on the tail end of the USN order in 2027. And lightly armed Super Bugs have a 1275nmi range. 200nmi out to the edge of the ADIZ, at least 2 hours on patrol (at 400kt patrol speed, slowing to 300kt would get you almost 3 hours), 200nmi back.
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Look at intercept profiles. Ireland isn't reall fighting for air superiority over fish. We're not taking 3 big tanks.
I.e. as interceptor, JAS-39E reaches longer ranges from standby on ground, faster.
 
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