Interceptors for Ireland

GTX said:
What is the threat?
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Commercial airliner full of hostages, pilots determined to fly it into something expensive/important? Some Tu-160s taking the back door into the UK or maybe deciding to do several billion dollars of "rapid urban renewal" to Belfast or wherever?



TsrJoe said:
Going back to the topic of the thread, the reality is Ireland does NOT need 'interceptors'.
MPA. and Coast Guard ASR. would be the only justifiable roles for an air arm otherwise its just posturing with the bigger boys and draining already thin resources.
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Air Policing. You know, fly up to the radar contact that isn't squawking the right transponder codes (or is squawking the wrong ones), get their attention, escort to land if needed. Pray you don't have to shoot them down. Shoot them down if required. Yes, this requires a plane armed with AAMs, because otherwise you're playing USAF on 9/11, where the plan of all the fighters that scrambled was to aim for the tail or wing root and pray they'd stay stable enough after the impact to eject.

Same basic needs that EVERY nation on Earth has for a minimal air force. Which a dozen LIFTs like FA-50s would accomplish. And you can't go too much less than that, as most fighter type aircraft have about a 60-75% availability rate but the statistics get distorted at extremely small population sizes. A dozen fighters will just about guarantee you have a couple birds available to go escort someone, barring a fleet-wide grounding. Less than a dozen birds and you may have situations where each plane is unable to fly for different reasons.
 
TsrJoe said:
Hmm, this all seems to be a continuation of ... 'Commission floats idea that Ireland purchase 12 to 24 fighter jets' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ireland-purchase-12-to-24-fighter-jets.38861/
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Except that I consider getting an Air Policing squadron to be part of LOA2, not LOA3.
LOA 2 enhanced capability: Building on current capability to address specific priority gaps in our ability to deal with an assault on Irish sovereignty
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While Ireland should be aiming towards LOA3, the funding increase for a dozen aircraft is easier to sell as part of LOA2.

LOA 3 conventional capability: Developing full spectrum defence capabilities to protect Ireland and its people to an extent comparable to similar sized countries in Europe.
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Emphasis mine, this to me implies funding the IDF to roughly 2% of GDP.
 
Scott Kenny said:
or maybe deciding to do several billion dollars of "rapid urban renewal" to Belfast or wherever?
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Is that possible?

In all seriousness though....there are so many other pressing priorities on Irish Defence monies, even if they got a massive increase, that purchasing a small number of fighter aircraft would be so far down the list as to almost not be visible...
 
timmymagic said:
Is that possible?
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Doing several billion dollars of urban renewal to (insert city you don't like)? Sure, it's possible. I'm sure some yahoo will take offense at the Irish for drinking and try to destroy all the breweries and distilleries.


timmymagic said:
In all seriousness though....there are so many other pressing priorities on Irish Defence monies, even if they got a massive increase, that purchasing a small number of fighter aircraft would be so far down the list as to almost not be visible...
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Can you say you're a sovereign nation if you cannot keep someone from trespassing?
 
A bit of a moot point really, for either good or bad, the EU. generally has an agreed open border network. 'tresspassing' in recent years is mostly illegal immigration and the responsibility of border control
 
TsrJoe said:
A bit of a moot point really, for either good or bad, the EU. generally has an agreed open border network. 'tresspassing' in recent years is mostly illegal immigration and the responsibility of border control
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With the way things are going these days, I would not be surprised at all to learn about some TU-95 or other overflights of Ireland in the very near future. That's *EXACTLY* what interceptors are for.
 
martinbayer said:
With the way things are going these days, I would not be surprised at all to learn about some TU-95 or other overflights of Ireland in the very near future. That's *EXACTLY* what interceptors are for.
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What would that gain the Russian's though? No intelligence to be collected, just another country to add as an opponent. The Russian's have played their diplomatic hand spectacularly badly recently but even they have limits on stupidity. Don't get me wrong the UK would be very happy if Ireland had primary radar (discretely linked into their own air picture) and 12 or so Gripen....but the real threat to Ireland is Russia messing with undersea infrastructure...
 
The RI has simply done to the UK and Europe what Europe generally, has done to the USA. Namely, If you are willing to do the job, why should I?

Things are better than in the past but not yet good enough and we need to improve but, what will RI citizens do when they find out how much it all costs?

ROTFLMAO.
 
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WatcherZero said:
Irelands Defence Minister has proposed tripling the budget to 1.4% of GDP. They have invited costings on the following proposals:
Increase the size of the navy from 6 patrol ships to 12
Build Irelands first airborne early warning radar.
Found an intelligence school with 300 soldiers dedicated to cybersecurity
Renew the armoured car fleet used by the army
Acquire 8 but preferably 12-14 fighters within an operating budget of €100m per year, training would be performed abroad while aircraft maintenance and ground handling would be commercially outsourced (with a €3bn annual defence budget for everything and €100m annual budget for the squadron I don't think they would be getting first hand aircraft).

Irelands current plan was to double defence spending by 2028 and acquiring the early warning radar.

www.irishtimes.com

Costings sought for massive expansion of Irish military including purchase of fighter jets

Proposal to double Naval Service’s fleet and equip Army with modern armoured vehicles
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
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EDIT:
Defence sources stressed it will not be possible to move to Level of Ambition 3 before hitting Level of Ambition 2.

“The Defence Forces can’t absorb that much change at once,” said a senior military source. “It is already undergoing a massive programme of reform.”

For example, a primary military radar to detect airborne threats, something being worked on under Level of Ambition 2, would be required before any move could be made to purchase jet interceptors.
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The radar project that both WatcherZero and I have mentioned/quoted would logically be the long stalled (in various forms) Military Radar Recognised Air Picture Programme that I mentioned in passing in an older post.
 
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WatcherZero said:
Irelands Defence Minister has proposed tripling the budget to 1.4% of GDP. They have invited costings on the following proposals:
Increase the size of the navy from 6 patrol ships to 12
Build Irelands first airborne early warning radar.
Found an intelligence school with 300 soldiers dedicated to cybersecurity
Renew the armoured car fleet used by the army
Acquire 8 but preferably 12-14 fighters within an operating budget of €100m per year, training would be performed abroad while aircraft maintenance and ground handling would be commercially outsourced (with a €3bn annual defence budget for everything and €100m annual budget for the squadron I don't think they would be getting first hand aircraft).

Irelands current plan was to double defence spending by 2028 and acquiring the early warning radar.

www.irishtimes.com

Costings sought for massive expansion of Irish military including purchase of fighter jets

Proposal to double Naval Service’s fleet and equip Army with modern armoured vehicles
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
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Grey Havoc said:
EDIT:

The radar project that both WatcherZero and I have mentioned/quoted would logically be the long stalled (in various forms) Military Radar Recognised Air Picture Programme that I mentioned in passing in an older post.
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Buy Eurofighters and Type 31s, work closely with the RAF and RN, enjoy maintenance and training synergies.
 
Hopefully it's not going to be that bad, but you never know with the lot in Dublin Castle!!!
 
There are fears that the Military Radar Recognised Air Picture Programme could take at least five years to realise (which would by default delay the procurement of fighters considerably under current plans):
www.irishexaminer.com

'We do not have time to wait': Former Defence Forces chief calls for increased investment

former chief of staff of the Defence Forces Mark Mellett said 'courageous leadership' is needed to make the case for substantial investment in defence and security and to change the old culture that stymied discussions
www.irishexaminer.com www.irishexaminer.com
 
Grey Havoc said:
Depends on what involvement in the Ukraine that the politicians commit us to though!
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Thinking along the same lines, there are also 30 RAF Typhoon T1s that are being wastefully disposed of early. By all rights they should go to Ukraine, but Ireland could be an option I guess.

Ireland is the Singapore of Europe though - similar in many respects (population, GDP, economic structure) - so building an air force should be well within their means and manpower if they so decide.
 
H_K said:
Thinking along the same lines, there are also 30 RAF Typhoon T1s that are being wastefully disposed of early. By all rights they should go to Ukraine, but Ireland could be an option I guess.

Ireland is the Singapore of Europe though - similar in many respects (population, GDP, economic structure) - so building an air force should be well within their means and manpower if they so decide.
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Seems like it would take a pretty radical rethinking of how it recruits and retains military personnel. Even accounting for a higher standard of equipment, tripling the military's budget has to mean at least doubling its staffing levels, which seems like a challenge when if can't meet its current targets for many roles.

Aside from that,. Eurofighter seems very expensive to operate. Assuming air policing continues to be the main anticipated role, what they need is the cheapest cost-per-flight hour supersonic aircraft they can find. So, surplus Gripens might be good, or the new build single-seat F-50 that KIA is working on.

I'd also think hard about whether you can manage a tanker of some sort (or at least buddy tanker pods) to extend the endurance of a single aircraft on an intercept mission. They have looked at the KC-390 recently, presumably as an airlift aircraft, but doubling it as a tanker might be a really good idea.
 
If Ireland are really serious about having a manned fighter capability then it is only the Rafale that fits the bill coupled with the KC-390 tanker/transport would be an excellent idea.
 
FighterJock said:
If Ireland are really serious about having a manned fighter capability then it is only the Rafale that fits the bill coupled with the KC-390 tanker/transport would be an excellent idea.
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Why Rafale? Not sure what it does for Ireland that Gripen/F-50 doesn't.
 
True TomS, but you only have to look at the other countries that have recently bought the Rafale so they must know something that we don't. But if there was to be a backup plan B for Ireland then the much larger Gripen E/F would be a better option in that case.
 
Tankers and supersonic fighters? Their current kit is a turboprop trainer.

Trying to be realistic, they would be better off sourcing 4 x hawks, which can be supported/ deep serviced by RAF Valley/BAE in North West England, then building up with RAF or ex-RAF pilots, then after 2-3 years, get 4-6 Typhoons. What happened to the Typhoons Austria had?

They really would need someone to rely on, this is not same as swapping Mig21 to Gripen.
 
TomS said:
Eurofighter seems very expensive to operate. Assuming air policing continues to be the main anticipated role, what they need is the cheapest cost-per-flight hour supersonic aircraft they can find. So, surplus Gripens might be good
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Agree if cost is the main driver then used Gripen Cs would be the best fit. (This also goes for other countries out there looking for a budget option... e.g. Peru, Colombia?).

Another cheap option might be to grab the last few used Mirage 2000Cs still in French and Greek storage, which might be good for another 10 years, then buy another used fighter (Rafale etc) or possibly some armed T-7s. Although Mirages might seem like an odd choice, they'd offer fast reaction times for the air policing mission and there's a strong synergy from operating French aircraft due to proximity of air bases, ability to share spare parts, training etc, plus that sets up an easy transition to used Rafales in the future.
 
Fluff said:
Tankers and supersonic fighters? Their current kit is a turboprop trainer.

Trying to be realistic, they would be better off sourcing 4 x hawks, which can be supported/ deep serviced by RAF Valley/BAE in North West England, then building up with RAF or ex-RAF pilots, then after 2-3 years, get 4-6 Typhoons. What happened to the Typhoons Austria had?

They really would need someone to rely on, this is not same as swapping Mig21 to Gripen.
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I get what you are saying, but the call is for fighters that can perform intercepts, and frankly Hawk isn't up to that. A Hawk (Mach 0.84 at altitude) would be hard-pressed to run down an airliner (~Mach 0.8 cruise) in a stern chase and could get flat outrun by some of the faster bizjets.

No question that initial pilot cadre will have to be mostly from other air arms, mostly ex-RAF, one assumes. But putting them through type conversion is feasible and probably still cheaper than flying Typhoons. Lead-in training for new domestic pilots will have to be contracted/outsourced in any event; it's very hard to imagine a single squadron of jets supporting a national ab-initio flight training course.

As for tanker, yeah, it's a stretch, but if they do decide to adopt KC-390 as a transport, turning a couple into flex tankers is really quite simple. Just underwing hose reel pods, one crew station in the cockpit, a couple of cameras, and a roll-on tank or two in the cargo bay. The same aircraft could even be re-rolled for offshore SAR with a EO/FLIR pod under the fuselage and life rafts on a pallet at the rear ramp. Same third crew station can be used for the EO/IR operator instead of AAR.
 
TomS said:
I get what you are saying, but the call is for fighters that can perform intercepts, and frankly Hawk isn't up to that. A Hawk (Mach 0.84 at altitude) would be hard-pressed to run down an airliner (~Mach 0.8 cruise) in a stern chase and could get flat outrun by some of the faster bizjets.

No question that initial pilot cadre will have to be mostly from other air arms, mostly ex-RAF, one assumes. But putting them through type conversion is feasible and probably still cheaper than flying Typhoons. Lead-in training for new domestic pilots will have to be contracted/outsourced in any event; it's very hard to imagine a single squadron of jets supporting a national ab-initio flight training course.

As for tanker, yeah, it's a stretch, but if they do decide to adopt KC-390 as a transport, turning a couple into flex tankers is really quite simple. Just underwing hose reel pods, one crew station in the cockpit, a couple of cameras, and a roll-on tank or two in the cargo bay. The same aircraft could even be re-rolled for offshore SAR with a EO/FLIR pod under the fuselage and life rafts on a pallet at the rear ramp. Same third crew station can be used for the EO/IR operator instead of AAR.
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Hawk would just be a stepping stone, I think it would be very difficult i.e. lose aircraft or crews to try to jump from prop to full on fighter. On the tanker, its not for me the buying of the hardware, its keeping the crew trained and current.

anyway they wont do it.
 
They stopped making the Hawk200 fighter variant years ago and anyway the Hawk would not be fast enough to intercept anything beyond Mach 1 so it would be rather pointless.
 
Fluff said:
Hawk would just be a stepping stone, I think it would be very difficult i.e. lose aircraft or crews to try to jump from prop to full on fighter. On the tanker, its not for me the buying of the hardware, its keeping the crew trained and current.
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Yeah, I think that's why you have to get at least some folks with experience, the same way that middle east armed forces have done it. I expect you could find ex-RAF pilots relatively easily; there have to be some who don't fancy flying for the gulf states.

ON the tanker side, at least maintaining currency for the tanker crew is fairly easy -- it's mostly fly straight and level while the receiver does most of the work. Currency for fighter crew is a bit harder, of course, but if you get some international training opportunities you can use someone else's tankers for some of it.

Fluff said:
anyway they wont do it.
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Yeah, they probably won't. I gather the fighters are part of the LoA 3 budget alternative, where LoA 1 is status quo and LoA 2 is a "significant" increase. The past government agreed to LoA 2 and the current government has said they want to go to LoA3, but it seems like a really high hurdle to clear all at once.

Ireland begins work on buying fighter jets and doubling the naval fleet | Shephard

Since the release of Ireland’s Commission on the Defence Forces (CoDF) report two years ago there have been whisperings about the potential of Ireland buying fighter jets, one of the most ambitious recommendations. The prospect has now inched closer.
www.shephardmedia.com
 
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The big question for me is....

The Primary Radar they're talking about...it's got to be at least 2-3 radars in practice for coverage right? (1 up near Achill, possibly 1 out on the DIngle Peninsular and another to cover Dublin or Wexford).

So would they consider integrating that data into UKADGE? Could be rather useful if they did....for both sides...I'm sure the UK would be happy to help them set up RRH...
 
A necessary move. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, defense budgets were cut. The monies were diverted to enable increased tourism and trade. The Channel Tunnel opened in 1994. The Fehmarnbelt Tunnel is under construction and scheduled to open in 2029. The UK and the rest of Europe need to reorient in terms of buying more military hardware.
 
TomS said:
Yeah, I think that's why you have to get at least some folks with experience, the same way that middle east armed forces have done it. I expect you could find ex-RAF pilots relatively easily; there have to be some who don't fancy flying for the gulf states.

ON the tanker side, at least maintaining currency for the tanker crew is fairly easy -- it's mostly fly straight and level while the receiver does most of the work. Currency for fighter crew is a bit harder, of course, but if you get some international training opportunities you can use someone else's tankers for some of it.



Yeah, they probably won't. I gather the fighters are part of the LoA 3 budget alternative, where LoA 1 is status quo and LoA 2 is a "significant" increase. The past government agreed to LoA 2 and the current government has said they want to go to LoA3, but it seems like a really high hurdle to clear all at once.

Ireland begins work on buying fighter jets and doubling the naval fleet | Shephard

Since the release of Ireland’s Commission on the Defence Forces (CoDF) report two years ago there have been whisperings about the potential of Ireland buying fighter jets, one of the most ambitious recommendations. The prospect has now inched closer.
www.shephardmedia.com
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Interesting!
 
edwest4 said:
A necessary move. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, defense budgets were cut. The monies were diverted to enable increased tourism and trade. The Channel Tunnel opened in 1994.
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Pity the Channel Tunnel was actually authorised in 1986 under Thatcher and Mitterand.
 
As Irish citizens can already serve in the British Army (I'm not clear if that extends to the RN or RAF), the simple solution* would be something similar to the Baltic Air Policing scheme, supplemented by Eire sponsoring a few Air Corps officers through RAF fast jet training and progressing to exchange postings with RAF squadrons.

* On cost grounds, bit of a bugger on Irish neutrality grounds, though.
 
DWG said:
As Irish citizens can already serve in the British Army (I'm not clear if that extends to the RN or RAF), the simple solution* would be something similar to the Baltic Air Policing scheme, supplemented by Eire sponsoring a few Air Corps officers through RAF fast jet training and progressing to exchange postings with RAF squadrons.

* On cost grounds, bit of a bugger on Irish neutrality grounds, though.
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Irish Citizens can serve in all UK Armed Forces, the Civil Service, can become MPs - even PMs.

When the South declared itself a republic in 1948, the UK passed the Republic of Ireland Act in 1949 - safeguarding the rights of Irish residents of the UK. This was because civil rights like residency were based on being a British Subject.

The key part of the act: “…the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of British law.”
 
I think you'll find that both the French and the UK keep an eye open for any air threats to Ireland and would help out discreetly.
 

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