Interceptors for Ireland

[Grey Havoc]

for some reason ‘interceptors’makes me go all Gerry Anderson.....

I'm occasionally that way myself...

 

[uk 75]

Purely for entertainment.
Ireland's last fast jet (as used in "On Her Majestys Secret Service' as a Swiss Mirage)
And two aircraft mentioned as possible replacements
.

 

[Fluff]

 

[zen]

Of course if we were to talk about supersonic interceptors, then South Korea and the wildcard of Taiwan are possible suppliers.
I don't see China being allowed to tender.
Though a variant of the US-Swedish trainer is the strongest potential option.

 

[TomS]

Of course if we were to talk about supersonic interceptors, then South Korea and the wildcard of Taiwan are possible suppliers.
I don't see China being allowed to tender.
Though a variant of the US-Swedish trainer is the strongest potential option.

Not supersonic...

 

[Nigelhg]

I don’t know, ships, Northern Ireland? Space?

Northern Ireland has no long range radar stations.... None since the cold war ended... There used to be 2 Rotor stations- one at killard point (beside what was RAF Bishopscourt- which is now a race track at which I do motorcycle track days) and one at fair head on the north coast. We have only a minimal RAF base at Aldergrove which is the main civilian airport (Belfast International)

 

[Archibald]

Purely for entertainment.
Ireland's last fast jet (as used in "On Her Majestys Secret Service' as a Swiss Mirage)
And two aircraft mentioned as possible replacements
.

I wouldn't call the Fouga Magister a "fast" jet.

 

[NoBarrelRolls]

Well... What about the Argentinian IA-63 Pampa?

I could carry two 7,62 mm gun pods plus 125 kg freefall bombs

 

[TomS]

Well what about the Argentinian IA-63 Pampa

I could carry two 7,62 mm gun pods plus 125 kg freefall bombs

Are you planning to bomb another plane?

The notional mission is air policing, which is a strictly air-to-air effort. That means any solution needs radar (or maybe a pretty advanced IRST) and air-to-air missiles. Arguably Ireland might actually want to actively omit air-to-ground weapons entirely.

The F-20 would have been nearly ideal, decades ago. Today, Gripen would be almost the only credible option. (C/D models with IRIS-T and Meteor only, to minimize the dependence on US suppliers?)

 

[archipeppe]

Why not the M-346FA?

 

[uk 75]

Bishop Brennan aka "Len": So we have no way of stopping them flying over Ireland.
Father Dougal: Well, Northern Ireland's out but that still leaves Ships and Space.
Father Jack: Gerls with purple hair...

 

[zen]

Well what about the Argentinian IA-63 Pampa

I could carry two 7,62 mm gun pods plus 125 kg freefall bombs

Are you planning to bomb another plane?

The notional mission is air policing, which is a strictly air-to-air effort. That means any solution needs radar (or maybe a pretty advanced IRST) and air-to-air missiles. Arguably Ireland might actually want to actively omit air-to-ground weapons entirely.

The F-20 would have been nearly ideal, decades ago. Today, Gripen would be almost the only credible option. (C/D models with IRIS-T and Meteor only, to minimize the dependence on US suppliers?)

I would say the South Korean T50 Golden Eagle ought to be reasonable.
And Taiwan has the trainer variant of the Ching Kuo and might build more....if you are prepared annoy China.
And as mad as it sounds the Tejas might make it four reasonable options for new aircraft.
Of which only one is the Gripen.

 

[zen]

Why not the M-346FA?

View attachment 636225

Why not Hawk then? Since the supplier is literally next door.

 

[Archibald]

One of the last generation trainers - M-346 or T-50 - would get my vote. It can complement or even replace the PC-9M. Anything larger or faster or more sophisticated will bust any budget. 1 billion is a paltry, as far as combat aircraft go...

 

[zen]

I suppose there is the option of renting Gripen....but are there available aircraft to rent and is it worth the ongoing cost?

 

[Fluff]

I suppose there is the option of renting Gripen....but are there available aircraft to rent and is it worth the ongoing cost?

Gripen would reinforce the non-aligned status. I think Sweden has been pretty flexible in 'loaners', and would probably allow them to buy another sqn of the newer Gripen.

And they could operate them off the M50.......

 

[kaiserd]

I suppose there is the option of renting Gripen....but are there available aircraft to rent and is it worth the ongoing cost?

Gripen would reinforce the non-aligned status. I think Sweden has been pretty flexible in 'loaners', and would probably allow them to buy another sqn of the newer Gripen.

And they could operate them off the M50.......

Good luck with that.....

 

[TomS]

Why not the M-346FA?

View attachment 636225

I'd say radar missiles (AMRAAM, Meteor, etc.) are desirable. Not so much for range as warhead size. Remember, the potential targets here include multi-engine bombers and, sadly, hijacked airliners.

The Czech Republic and Hungary both leased a single squadron of 14 Gripen for 10 years at a bit less than 1 billion Euro each. That's minus actual running costs and armament, however.

 

[uk 75]

To paraphrase an Aussie of Irish extraction:
That's not an Interceptor. This is an Interceptor.

Clavework Graphics

 

[RavenOne]

I attended RIAT last month and saw their Swallows Display Team made up of Pilatus PC-9 with instructors from the Central Flying School. Also on static there was one of the new Piltus PC-12 Spectres.

So here are my photos below :

Herr are my two euros of thoguht , since the retirement of the Magister- kinda makes sense (as with the Kiwis and their T-6 Texans) to keep up basic skill sets of formation flying, aerobatics, air to ground rocketery et al because you never know when you will need it again.

Cheers

 

[publiusr]

I can just see a clown-nose propeller mount radome.
“Pennywise”

 

[RavenOne]

I saw the Spectre again last weekend in my other neck of the woods at Airpower Zeltweg in Austria.

cheers

 

[RavenOne]

And adding to their defense the new Airbus Defense C295 took off maiden flight today.

Cheers

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a tangent:

Putin’s subs have exposed Ireland’s shameless hypocrisy

Ireland is richer than Norway - why is it reliant on Norwegian planes to defend it?

www.telegraph.co.uk

The response online to this latest incursion is instructive.

Ignoring those who said the Nato patrol aircraft should be shot down for being in Irish airspace – needless to say, Ireland is incapable of doing so – two themes emerge.

First “we don’t need to spend money on this as Russia will never attack Ireland” second, “we don’t need to spend money on this as the UK has it covered”. The word ‘freeloading’ features regularly.

To the first group I would say, what do you think Russian submarines are doing in the vicinity of your CUI – making it more resilient?

To the second group, some dependence on allies is fine and to a large degree is the bedrock of our security infrastructure. Overreliance, however, is not, especially as discussed earlier, when those allies are overstretched themselves.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Excerpted from a rather cringeworthy, if not at times outright delusional, article in the Irish edition of today's The Sunday Times (page 10, "We Must Keep a laser focus on the threats to Ireland, warns Martin", byline John Mooney):

Martin is very clear what's required. Ireland he says, will never be a military power but the Defence Forces need to be able to protect the state and by default Europe. Building up this capability will take time, despite the speed at which his officials and the general staff are operating. He points to the decision to procure an advanced primary radar system, capable of monitoring Irish-controlled airspace, its land domain and the maritime environment by 2028.

At the moment, Ireland relies on civilian or secondary radar, which is capable of tracking only aircraft that have switched on their transponders. In recent years, Russian military aircraft have passed through Irish-controlled airspace undetected until they were identified by neighbouring countries' radar systems and Nato.

"The absence of primary radar capability is a significant gap in our national defence. It compromises our ability to maintain full situational awareness over our airspace, which is critical in an era of heightened global tensions," he said.

In future, the military will have a system capable of monitoring its airspace but also its maritime and land domain, as part of three related air defence and radar projects termed the Military Radar Recognised Air Picture Programme.

"It will involve land-based long-range primary radar, ground based air defence systems to counter unmanned aerial systems, and maritime ship-borne radar systems. So it's a very complex programme. The procurement process has already started. We are working with another country on procurement," Martin said.

When operational, the system will enable Ireland not only defend itself but also help also help Europe by alerting neighbouring countries to hostile actors passing off the west coast. The military intends to acquire a sonar system to detect hostile activity such as submarines off the west coast to protect subsea cables and critical infrastructure.

"There's collaboration across the EU and across like-minded states that if they see something suspicious or untoward, they'll alert the relevant member state or country that is involved. Russians come in, they're being observed. They're also testing how far they can go and all of that. There's all these kinds of, dare I say, games going on between different actors. But the French or the British will alert us, and we'll alert the British or the French in given situations," Martin said.

The future military of which Martin speaks of is essentially designed to be interoperable, whereby it can work independently, but also partner with other armies in crisis situations.

"Ireland is not an island on its own. We have to co-operate with other member states. We have to work with them in the context of the European Union but also in the context of expertise. Cybersecurity will not be done by any one country on its own. You have to share expertise, share learnings and so on," he says.

Some context:
As you will have no doubt have guessed, the 'Military Radar Recognised Air Picture Programme' is, at best, a paper project, without even a token budget. The sonar project also mentioned even more so.

Micheál Martin is Ireland's Tánaiste (basically our deputy prime minister) as well as serving as the current Minister of Defence along with being Minister for Foreign Affairs (no prizes for guessing which of the latter two posts he normally pays more attention to). He is also the head of Fianna Fáil, one of the three parties that make up the (increasingly unstable) coalition that serves as our current government, such as it is, and what there is of it. What attention Martin has paid to his Defence portfolio before now can be best summed up in one sentence: He wants to make the Irish military more 'woke'. Actual combat capability doesn't enter into it at all, as he cheerfully admits elsewhere in the article (if I had posted that part, the mods would have likely thought that I was making it up!).

This, what can only be described as a puff piece, comes as there is increasingly speculation that our current Taoiseach (Irish prime minister) will call an early election in November rather than wait until February of next year when the current government's term is due to run out under the legislation presently underpinning the current coalition; It seems that he, much like his infamous immediate predecessor, has made the mistake of beginning to believe his own propaganda. Given past Irish political history, going for an early election may prove to be rather unwise, to the point of making Rishi Sunak look like a genius in comparison. So, as part of this attempt to put clear blue water between himself and his coalition partners before any such election (while at the same time trying to assuage rapidly rising irritation [to put it mildly] on the part of our lords and masters in Brussels over our shameless freeloading re. defence), Martin is trying to sound to strong on defence, while attempting to not put off those liberal voters who hate the defence forces and indeed anything military (or indeed police related) with every fibre of their being. The same type of voters by the way which were very happy with things like Ireland recognising Hamas as the legitimate government of Palestine. It is not genocide after all, if it is Jews that are being driven into the sea (I really wish that I was joking, but that mindset is actually quite prevalent in certain circles).

It is insane, but that is the way things are in the Ireland of 2024, at least so far as our political betters are concerned.

 

[Scott Kenny]

There would be serious logistical support needed to realise the use of fighters; upgraded facilities at Casement, additional ground crew and mechanical support manpower, an improved training syllabus, probably a new advanced trainer other than the PC-9M.
I suspect what they are talking about is buying some jet trainers to complement the PC-9M (which are only 16 years old - and which better fit the majority of the non-jet fleet). Four M-346 would be just the job I would think. Chasing off a few Bears doesn't require much else.

I'd want more like a dozen, because some will always be getting fixed. A dozen M-346s or FA-50s, and FA-50s for preference because they're solidly supersonic.

And a major ground radar system or three (depending on whether it's 360 view per radar or less). Without getting into over-the-horizon fun.

 

[_Del_]

I'd want more like a dozen, because some will always be getting fixed. A dozen M-346s or FA-50s, and FA-50s for preference because they're solidly supersonic.

And a major ground radar system or three (depending on whether it's 360 view per radar or less). Without getting into over-the-horizon fun.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but if it was me, I'd prefer to invest in biz jet MPA.
Get ELTA to do MPA conversions, the G280's or similar can be found cheap and in good condition. The supply lines are still fresh with plenty of customers. Reasonably affordable.

Importantly, It has an actual peacetime mission including SAR and EEZ enforcement. You can configure it to include air- as well as maritime and ELINT tracking. You can probably hang sidewinders with a minimum of effort, and the biz jet solution is at least semi-capable of getting the required intercept geometry for the peacetime air-policing Ireland is likely to see.

You might get the UK and/or EU to help subsidize a small portion as the UK is able to divest the assignment and the EU receives the benefit of added MPA capabilities in a critical shipping area the rest of the continent relies on.

The trainers would be a "sexier" pick, and definitely more capable as either attack or air defense, but let's be honest: anything heading to the Emerald Isle is realistically headed through UK or French airspace first. If the attacker is capable enough to avoid that scenario, a few F/A-50 air frames aren't going to change the calculus for Ireland too much. The increased air and sea tracking is going to be more helpful to Ireland, the UK and France than a handful of trainers if a real war ever came about. And as a peacetime asset infinitely more useful.

Even if you could only afford three or four, it'd be a better investment than a dozen advanced trainers, imo. The entire thing seems to be an exercise in providing a token effort towards national sovereignty anyway.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but if it was me, I'd prefer to invest in biz jet MPA.
Get ELTA to do MPA conversions, the G280's or similar can be found cheap and in good condition. The supply lines are still fresh with plenty of customers. Reasonably affordable.

Importantly, It has an actual peacetime mission including SAR and EEZ enforcement. You can configure it to include air- as well as maritime and ELINT tracking. You can probably hang sidewinders with a minimum of effort, and the biz jet solution is at least semi-capable of getting the required intercept geometry for the peacetime air-policing Ireland is likely to see.

You might get the UK and/or EU to help subsidize a small portion as the UK is able to divest the assignment and the EU receives the benefit of added MPA capabilities in a critical shipping area the rest of the continent relies on.

The trainers would be a "sexier" pick, and definitely more capable as either attack or air defense, but let's be honest: anything heading to the Emerald Isle is realistically headed through UK or French airspace first. If the attacker is capable enough to avoid that scenario, a few F/A-50 air frames aren't going to change the calculus for Ireland too much. The increased air and sea tracking is going to be more helpful to Ireland, the UK and France than a handful of trainers if a real war ever came about. And as a peacetime asset infinitely more useful.

Even if you could only afford three or four, it'd be a better investment than a dozen advanced trainers, imo. The entire thing seems to be an exercise in providing a token effort towards national sovereignty anyway.

I'm not sure that a M0.9 bizjet is capable of getting the intercept geometry, but point taken about also needing MPA.

 

[_Del_]

I'm not sure that a M0.9 bizjet is capable of getting the intercept geometry, but point taken about also needing MPA.

I would think most "targets" Ireland encounters air policing are wayward airliners and private aircraft either not squawking or squawking the wrong code. While difficult, it should be within reason to close on incoming aircraft with a bizjet in most cases.
Actual air defense would be more difficult, but again, I don't think actual air defense is an urgent need for Ireland. It is not as though the UK is going to ignore a Bear or Backfire because it is headed in a slightly less ominous direction off their coast bearing toward Ireland. This is more of a prestige project to "enforce" sovereignty than an actual need for combat aircraft.
Nor does Ireland have a lot of enemies (the British excepted, historically) within strike distance. Maybe political tides shift just a bit and they can enter some sort of Benelux-style of joint-arrangement with the UK for air and maritime patrol, each contributing some assets within their capabilities.
I wouldn't think the political will, money, and investment will suddenly sprout for an F-16 fleet or even adv combat trainers in Ireland.

 

[Apophenia]

Beyond don't-wanna/pacifism in the [/i]Dáil Éireann[/i], are procurement costs or operating expenses Ireland's primary concern?

If the former, why not approach fellow EU members for older fighter airframes? Retired French Mirage 2000Cs might be an option. Such jet fighters would certainly be a challenge for the current An tAerchór pilots ... but that's what type conversion training is for.

In any case, if Ireland is serious about wanting to intercept and escort 800 km/h Bears out their airspace, cute-n-cuddly trainer aircraft are probably not the way to go. (And available European F-16s should probably all be ear-marked for Ukraine.)

On the OT MPA, if costs are the major concern, might I suggest a more modest Danish-style conversion of a Challenger 604? Here, I'm assuming that longer-range patrol/detection of surface craft is the priority. If, instead, a fully-modern ASW capability is sought, the An tAerchór is facing another huge learning curve ...

 

[Scott Kenny]

Beyond don't-wanna/pacifism in the [/i]Dáil Éireann[/i], are procurement costs or operating expenses Ireland's primary concern?

If the former, why not approach fellow EU members for older fighter airframes? Retired French Mirage 2000Cs might be an option. Such jet fighters would certainly be a challenge for the current An tAerchór pilots ... but that's what type conversion training is for.

In any case, if Ireland is serious about wanting to intercept and escort 800 km/h Bears out their airspace, cute-n-cuddly trainer aircraft are probably not the way to go. (And available European F-16s should probably all be ear-marked for Ukraine.)

FA-50s aren't exactly cute-and-cuddly. But yes, a dozen or so Mirage 2000Cs would be another option. I'm just not sure about how many hours remaining on them. I'm assuming some 300 hours a year flying for the Air Policing mission and training. You're better off buying a new supersonic LIFT for the job and being able to fly it for 20+ years, rather than needing to replace your planes in 5-10 years.

On the OT MPA, if costs are the major concern, might I suggest a more modest Danish-style conversion of a Challenger 604? Here, I'm assuming that longer-range patrol/detection of surface craft is the priority. If, instead, a fully-modern ASW capability is sought, the An tAerchór is facing another huge learning curve ...

I think the primary issue is keeping non-Irish ships out of their EEZ for fishing etc., not so much modern ASW work like the phrase MPA usually implies.

 

[Apophenia]

You're better off buying a new supersonic LIFT for the job and being able to fly it for 20+ years, rather than needing to replace your planes in 5-10 years.

For a procurement system experienced in buying and maintaining modern fighters, I would agree.

Ireland doesn't fit that mould ... so, contracting out routine mtx to recently-retired Armée de l'air et de l'espace personnel based in Ireland (and French firms for heavier MRO) could be one, shorter-term approach.

One current imponderable is the duration of the Bear threat to Irish airspace. In other words, how long will Putin's regime prevail? And how long will there be sufficient Bears available if/when Ukraine gets access to faster cruise missiles/drones capable of hitting VKS bases with strategic bombers still on the tarmac?

 

[GTX]

Of course one option would be to contract out the Irish need to someone like Drake International.

 

[Scott Kenny]

For a procurement system experienced in buying and maintaining modern fighters, I would agree.

Ireland doesn't fit that mould ... so, contracting out routine mtx to recently-retired Armée de l'air et de l'espace personnel based in Ireland (and French firms for heavier MRO) could be one, shorter-term approach.

One current imponderable is the duration of the Bear threat to Irish airspace. In other words, how long will Putin's regime prevail? And how long will there be sufficient Bears available if/when Ukraine gets access to faster cruise missiles/drones capable of hitting VKS bases with strategic bombers still on the tarmac?

They're trainers. Intended to be fixed by conscripts and broken by people with college degrees. Got a couple more systems than the PC9s and PC12 that the Irish fly now, but that just means you send some Irish folks to the class to fix that stuff. Maybe temporarily hire some foreign folks for the first 5-10 years to keep the kit working till the Irish troops are up to speed.

 

[martinbayer]

Of course one option would be to contract out the Irish need to someone like Drake International.

Outsourcing a sovereign democratic government function to for hire mercenaries does strike me as an extremely bad idea. When you get commercial entities involved in performing government functions, you will *ALWAYS* end up paying more in the end, because of profit motives.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Outsourcing a sovereign democratic government function to for hire mercenaries does strike me as an extremely bad idea. When you get commercial entities involved in performing government functions, you will *ALWAYS* end up paying more in the end, because of profit motives.

Nevermind the questionable legality of mercenaries flying combat missions.

It's for Irish Sovereignty, FFS, some Irishmen can do the job! [/rant]

 

[TsrJoe]

Going back to the topic of the thread, the reality is Ireland does NOT need 'interceptors'.
MPA. and Coast Guard ASR. would be the only justifiable roles for an air arm otherwise its just posturing with the bigger boys and draining already thin resources.
Likewise a standing army, useful for potential 'disaster relief' when needed (this is where a TA type reserve may well be of more value ?) or seconded to peacekeeping roles with the UN. (makes the politicos feel worthy)

 

[martinbayer]

Going back to the topic of the thread, the reality is Ireland does NOT need 'interceptors'.
MPA. and Coast Guard ASR. would be the only justifiable roles for an air arm otherwise its just posturing with the bigger boys and draining already thin resources.
Likewise a standing army, useful for potential 'disaster relief' when needed (this is where a TA type reserve may well be of more value, or seconded to peacekeeping roles with the UN. (makes the politicos feel worthy)

Please explain why in your view Ireland should have less military defensive systems and protection than Switzerland has.

 

[GTX]

Please explain why in your view Ireland should have less military defensive systems and protection than Switzerland has.

What is the threat?

 

[martinbayer]

What is the threat?

You could ask the very same question for Switzerland and might perhaps even come up with some of the same answers.