Interceptors for Ireland

[Grey Havoc]

for some reason ‘interceptors’makes me go all Gerry Anderson.....

I'm occasionally that way myself...

 

[uk 75]

Purely for entertainment.
Ireland's last fast jet (as used in "On Her Majestys Secret Service' as a Swiss Mirage)
And two aircraft mentioned as possible replacements
.

 

[Fluff]

 

[zen]

Of course if we were to talk about supersonic interceptors, then South Korea and the wildcard of Taiwan are possible suppliers.
I don't see China being allowed to tender.
Though a variant of the US-Swedish trainer is the strongest potential option.

 

[TomS]

Of course if we were to talk about supersonic interceptors, then South Korea and the wildcard of Taiwan are possible suppliers.
I don't see China being allowed to tender.
Though a variant of the US-Swedish trainer is the strongest potential option.

Not supersonic...

 

[Nigelhg]

I don’t know, ships, Northern Ireland? Space?

Northern Ireland has no long range radar stations.... None since the cold war ended... There used to be 2 Rotor stations- one at killard point (beside what was RAF Bishopscourt- which is now a race track at which I do motorcycle track days) and one at fair head on the north coast. We have only a minimal RAF base at Aldergrove which is the main civilian airport (Belfast International)

 

[Archibald]

Purely for entertainment.
Ireland's last fast jet (as used in "On Her Majestys Secret Service' as a Swiss Mirage)
And two aircraft mentioned as possible replacements
.

I wouldn't call the Fouga Magister a "fast" jet.

 

[NoBarrelRolls]

Well... What about the Argentinian IA-63 Pampa?

I could carry two 7,62 mm gun pods plus 125 kg freefall bombs

 

[TomS]

Well what about the Argentinian IA-63 Pampa

I could carry two 7,62 mm gun pods plus 125 kg freefall bombs

Are you planning to bomb another plane?

The notional mission is air policing, which is a strictly air-to-air effort. That means any solution needs radar (or maybe a pretty advanced IRST) and air-to-air missiles. Arguably Ireland might actually want to actively omit air-to-ground weapons entirely.

The F-20 would have been nearly ideal, decades ago. Today, Gripen would be almost the only credible option. (C/D models with IRIS-T and Meteor only, to minimize the dependence on US suppliers?)

 

[archipeppe]

Why not the M-346FA?

 

[uk 75]

Bishop Brennan aka "Len": So we have no way of stopping them flying over Ireland.
Father Dougal: Well, Northern Ireland's out but that still leaves Ships and Space.
Father Jack: Gerls with purple hair...

 

[zen]

Well what about the Argentinian IA-63 Pampa

I could carry two 7,62 mm gun pods plus 125 kg freefall bombs

Are you planning to bomb another plane?

The notional mission is air policing, which is a strictly air-to-air effort. That means any solution needs radar (or maybe a pretty advanced IRST) and air-to-air missiles. Arguably Ireland might actually want to actively omit air-to-ground weapons entirely.

The F-20 would have been nearly ideal, decades ago. Today, Gripen would be almost the only credible option. (C/D models with IRIS-T and Meteor only, to minimize the dependence on US suppliers?)

I would say the South Korean T50 Golden Eagle ought to be reasonable.
And Taiwan has the trainer variant of the Ching Kuo and might build more....if you are prepared annoy China.
And as mad as it sounds the Tejas might make it four reasonable options for new aircraft.
Of which only one is the Gripen.

 

[zen]

Why not the M-346FA?

View attachment 636225

Why not Hawk then? Since the supplier is literally next door.

 

[Archibald]

One of the last generation trainers - M-346 or T-50 - would get my vote. It can complement or even replace the PC-9M. Anything larger or faster or more sophisticated will bust any budget. 1 billion is a paltry, as far as combat aircraft go...

 

[zen]

I suppose there is the option of renting Gripen....but are there available aircraft to rent and is it worth the ongoing cost?

 

[Fluff]

I suppose there is the option of renting Gripen....but are there available aircraft to rent and is it worth the ongoing cost?

Gripen would reinforce the non-aligned status. I think Sweden has been pretty flexible in 'loaners', and would probably allow them to buy another sqn of the newer Gripen.

And they could operate them off the M50.......

 

[kaiserd]

I suppose there is the option of renting Gripen....but are there available aircraft to rent and is it worth the ongoing cost?

Gripen would reinforce the non-aligned status. I think Sweden has been pretty flexible in 'loaners', and would probably allow them to buy another sqn of the newer Gripen.

And they could operate them off the M50.......

Good luck with that.....

 

[TomS]

Why not the M-346FA?

View attachment 636225

I'd say radar missiles (AMRAAM, Meteor, etc.) are desirable. Not so much for range as warhead size. Remember, the potential targets here include multi-engine bombers and, sadly, hijacked airliners.

The Czech Republic and Hungary both leased a single squadron of 14 Gripen for 10 years at a bit less than 1 billion Euro each. That's minus actual running costs and armament, however.

 

[uk 75]

To paraphrase an Aussie of Irish extraction:
That's not an Interceptor. This is an Interceptor.

Clavework Graphics

 

[UpForce]

Irish Commission on the Defence Forces has come up with three proposals to bolster the armed forces, the most ambitious of which includes the purchase of 12 to 24 jet fighters. The cost of such an effort is almost quadruple of the current budget (including other capabilities as well). This would be quite a turnaround considering that currently Ireland is the most thrifty of EU countries when it comes to military spending, with only 0.27% of its GDP allocated to defence. Standing up a fighter force of course is no trivial matter; at least some of the training will most certainly have to happen abroad as well. It will be interesting to see whether this proposal goes anywhere.

Government urged to purchase fighter jets to protect Irish airspace

A report says Ireland is ill-equipped to deal with increasing threats from Islamic and right-wing extremists and the activities of Russia and China

www.irishexaminer.com

 

[isayyo2]

Start putting that Tax Haven money to use...

If Ireland used the 2% of their GDP ($8 Billion) as a budget, that'd put them at parity with Sweden, Norway, Thailand, and Indonesia; quite the boost.

 

[starviking]

Some nice Tranche 1 Typhoons available from a close neighbour, and the Qatari training system could be leveraged to get the planes easy for action more quickly.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Why would they do that when they can get someone else to do it? SImplist way of looking at it, the continued outlay would be more than they are willing to do more than think about.

 

[starviking]

Why would they do that when they can get someone else to do it? SImplist way of looking at it, the continued outlay would be more than they are willing to do more than think about.

I think they want to be seen to carry their own weight in Europe.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Ambitious. There are many pitfalls to be had in building a fast jet force from the ground up. I'm platform agnostic but it would make a great deal of sense for the advanced training to be done at Valley. I don't think you could be any closer to home or have more representative meteorology!

 

[Foo Fighter]

There would need to be a huge investment in acquiring training and logistics outside of the Island of Ireland. Where it would be is anyone's guess but I would posit an eu nation, France possibly. Either way, not a quick procedure and liable to a change of rider during that process. SHOULD it happen which I doubt, going from handling prop driven to high performance gas turbine aircraft is not for the faint hearted which I believe this suggestion is. Wotsit waving in other words.

 

[timmymagic]

Where it would be is anyone's guess but I would posit an eu nation, France possibly.

The Irish do a lot of training with the UK already, but the UK MFTS is struggling as it is. Reality is (apart from the fact it will never happen...) is training would need to be provided by whichever nation sold them the jets.

Infrastructure would be a huge issue however. Baldonnell is too small and would need significant infrastructure improvements (if they were possible). The most sensible choices would be Shannon or Knock airports. Both with decent sized runways, in Shannon's case there is a lot of aviation industry/infrastructure, for Knock there is a lot of spare space..even then it would cost a lot to set up. The list would be endless...radar coverage...munitions stockpiles, complex weapon maintenance, weapons bunkers, dispersals, ground handling equipment, simulator, crew accomodation and maintenance areas, Command and Control set-up.....it goes on and one...

 

[Hood]

It sounds like they have enough other basic problems to solve first like getting enough manpower and retention as well as suitable facilities before they can think about equipment and all that boils down to the money.
The reports sounds more like a desperate plea for funding and some ideas how they could put the money to practical use.

Ireland isn't part of NATO and has been historically sparsely armed despite being a neutral nation. That leaves it vulnerable to some extent and quite rightly it can't assume that the UK or EU will be willing or able to cover its back at all times.

 

[starviking]

Ireland isn't part of NATO and has been historically sparsely armed despite being a neutral nation. That leaves it vulnerable to some extent and quite rightly it can't assume that the UK or EU will be willing or able to cover its back at all times.

The UK will cover the Republic’s back at all times, as the Republic’s back is the UK’s back.

 

[TomS]

Sounds like the numbers must have changed from the initial review in late 2020/early 2021 (the Air Policing Policy Options report, attached).

That report discusses air policing capability on a spectrum, with eight (8) jet trainer (e.g., M346 Master) or light combat aircraft (e.g., FA-50) being in the preferred range. The only larger capability described would be what they call a full air defense capability, with 40 Gen 4 or Gen 5 aircraft, at nearly 10 times the price of the "Realistic" option with light combat aircraft. They price out the CAPEX for 8 FA-50 as ~192 million Euro, or ~20 million Euro per year in OPEX+CAPEX. There are some very questionable numbers in there, like a provision of only 150 flight hours per aircraft per year. With 2 pilots per aircraft, that's just 75 flight hours per pilot year, which is barely enough for safety, much less proficiency. And they assume pilots arrive trained (hiring ex-RAF pilots with dual UK-Irish citizenship?)



Edit: Fixed the costing numbers.

 

[kaiserd]

Recommended Defence Forces upgrades will be huge ask, says Coveney

Military representatives give commission’s reform and funding proposals cautious welcome

www.irishtimes.com

 

[pathology_doc]

A nation that can't recruit its forces to full strength suddenly wants to upgrade to two-dozen frontline jet fighters? Yeah, I see all sorts of problems with achieving this.

Most of them are in the often-ignored space between the previous landing and the subsequent takeoff.

 

[kaiserd]

There has been a lot of realism from Irish politicians and media in relation to this commissions report and the 3 options set out.
It appears that “option 3” (procurement of actual air defence aircraft) is viewed at best as a potential very long term in the future option which may (likely?) never be selected, but which has been flagged to help inform wider realistic debate around defence priorities and spending.
It also has the secondary advantage of making the other options such as option 2 - a significantly scaled up and better equipped defence force, twice as expensive but still with no actual fighter aircraft - appear more reasonable/ palatable to a country highly wedded to it’s neutrality.

 

[Hood]

It also has the secondary advantage of making the other options such as option 2 - a significantly scaled up and better equipped defence force, twice as expensive but still with no actual fighter aircraft - appear more reasonable/ palatable to a country highly wedded to it’s neutrality.

Yes this is my feeling too, making what looks expensive seem less expensive than the super platinum-plated option.
Both Option 1 or 2 look credible. Option 1 seems fine as a starting point assuming you aren't going to shoot a hijacked airliner down or try going toe-to-toe with Rooskie Bears.

The UK will cover the Republic’s back at all times, as the Republic’s back is the UK’s back.

Unless the UK splits up of course...
Then they might go into pooling ex-RAF Typhoons with Scotland or something?
Pays to keep your options open in these crazy times.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Unless the UK splits up of course...

Too many Spice Girls and not enough Beatles to share out for that to happen.

Bound to be some F-16MLUs going cheap somewhere....

 

[timmymagic]

nd they assume pilots arrive trained (hiring ex-RAF pilots with dual UK-Irish citizenship?)

Lower pay with hgher housing costs and paid for healthcare....less flying, less deployments...not a hope.

 

[TomS]

nd they assume pilots arrive trained (hiring ex-RAF pilots with dual UK-Irish citizenship?)

Lower pay with hgher housing costs and paid for healthcare....less flying, less deployments...not a hope.

Might find some folks who are done with their RAF careers and wouldn't mind a less strenuous gig.

I'd also think about whether you could staff it partially on a reserve basis with pilots who also fly commercial airliners or some such. Lots of scheduling headaches there, though.

 

[timmymagic]

Might find some folks who are done with their RAF careers and wouldn't mind a less strenuous gig.

They'd have to compete with the ME contracts. But any such procurement would be multi-year, they might want to draft in a couple of more senior pilots to set up the system, but they'd be time to train Irish pilots up. The problem would be keeping them long term...instead of being a flight academy for Ryanair....

 

[Archibald]

Is this related to Vlad Putin naval saber rattling off their coast, recently ?

 

[TomS]

Is this related to Vlad Putin naval saber rattling off their coast, recently ?

It's not the first time. Ireland has had some Russian intrusions or near-intrusions into its airspace for quite a while. Some events in 2020 caught media attention, which is probably why the initial study was done.

What are Russian bombers doing in Irish airspace?

Moscow testing Irish-British air defence links and threatening State role as technology hub

www.irishtimes.com