WS-202A, LRI-X (F-108 Competitors)

[Orionblamblam]

Circa 1956.

SHAZAM!!!

P.S.: How do I post this with the little clickable thumbnail like most of the other pics around here?

[edited to add picture]

 

[elmayerle]

Looks to be one of their "Super Scorpion" studies for the LRI competition.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Apparently Airpower magazine May 1991 had an article "Playing the Proposal Game" which documents this and other Northrop projects. N-167 was a rival project to the F-108.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Yup. One of the few really good "what-if" articles in the regular press. The N-167 drawing above does not come from that article, but the article does have soem spiffy drawings of other planes.

 

[TinWing]

Despite the fact that it is much larger, it would seem as if the N-167 shares quite a few visual similarities with the N-156, which in turn lead to the T-38 and F-5.

I have read that early N-156 proposals featured a T-tail and a single J-79?

Does anyone know anything more?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I have read the same, but not seen any illustrations.

 

[elmayerle]

This looks to be a design that was developed sometime between the Northrop "FANG" light-weight fighter and the N-156 series. You can see how the aerodynamic preferences of the company are evolving; much as the competing CL-280/320 series fighters show commonalities with both the F-104 and the A-12.

Northrop used to publish a corporate history that had a good three-view and write-up on FANG. When I manage to retrieve my copy from where ever it's packed, I'll scan the three-view if no one else has by then.

 

[flateric]

AFAIK FANG also had the same internal designation - ND-102 -- as later Northrop-Dornier project did. Northrop's official 3-view was in Steve Pace's 'X-Fighters' book.

BTW, this Northrop corporate history is just for insiders, ugh?

 

[elmayerle]

AFAIK FANG also had the same internal designation - ND-102 -- as later Northrop-Dornier project did. Northrop's official 3-view was in Steve Pace's 'X-Fighters' book.

BTW, this Northrop corporate history is just for insiders, ugh?

N-102, not ND-102. At least once they've restarted the project numbering system system there.

Actually, the history was sold, and may still be sold, through the employees' store and anyone could buy one. When i bought my copy in 1979, I was working for GLC in Wichita, KS. It was getting laid off there that got me onto teh B-2.

 

[TinWing]

Northrop used to publish a corporate history that had a good three-view and write-up on FANG. When I manage to retrieve my copy from where ever it's packed, I'll scan the three-view if no one else has by then.

Do you recall the exact title or author?

 

[elmayerle]

Recall, no. But running a search on Abebooks.com found both: Northrop, An Aeronautical History by Fred Anderson. 1st edition was 1976 and I'm not certain there's been a second edition. I've found at least four copies at different prices on Abebooks, so you've got a better chance of picking one up.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Northrop N-176, eight-engine F-108 competitor. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

Northrop N-126

I'm looking for more information on this project as all I have are what's recounted in Dennis Jenkins/Tony Landis' book Valkyrie: North American's Mach 3 Superbomber. Basically:

General layout: High-mounted delta wing on long fuselage with tandem cockpit, conventional tail layout, large jet engine nacelles (one under each wing), bicycle landing gear.

Dimensions: 85' long/62.25' wingspan/22' height.

Powerplant: 2 Allison J71 engines. Seems like there was also an option for the Wright J67.

Armament: Hughes E-9 fire control system with 8 GAR-1 Falcon missiles in 20' long weapons bay. Two packs of 24 FFAR rockets in retractable tray behind forward landing gear.

Performance: Top speed Mach 1.9, 800 nm range on internal fuel.

 

[Deino]

Maybe this could be the info You were looking for:

 

[Deino]

It's from an article about the way to the F-108 Rapier in "Airpower", September 2004 (Vol. 34 / No. 9) page 16 written by Dennis R. Jenkins and Tony R. Landis ... I think it was a pre-scrpit "condensed" from the book You mentioned and published in that journal !

By the way very interesting especially regarding the studies which led to the F-108 ... and a final iteration after it was already cancelled !

Here is the text to the pictures !

Cheers, Deino

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

Supreme thanks, Andreas! That four view of the N-126 shows more detail than the similar drawing in the Valkyrie book. The book mentions that the outrigger gears were based on the F-89's main landing gear and were housed in the engine nacelles, but the four view shows otherwise. I wonder if there were two locations for the outrigger gear under study at the time the Delta Scorpion got cancelled.

I'll have to go back to the book and check on the dimensions of the Wright J67, but that right off hand sounds like it'd be a lot bigger engine for those nacelles than what the Allison J71 would have needed.

 

[elmayerle]

Wright J67 = developed (poorly) Bristol Olympus 100 series with afterburner. Bristol did a far better job of developing the engine but then again they had quite an inspired Chief Engineer (I love his autobiography). Yeah, they made the semi-finals but got the notice that they'd lost while they were in Cal Tech's wind tunnel (worked on TSSAM with a guy who'd been on that team).

 

[Orionblamblam]

I'm looking for more information on this project

I have a fair pile on this, including a large size inboard profile, some drawings and an evolution-of-the-design-in-sketches. I'll scan and post this weekend.

 

[Sentinel Chicken]

I'd be very interested in seeing those schematics/drawings, Scott. I've wanted to create a Delta Scorpion illustration for some time but have only the material in the Jenkins/Landis book to work off of so far.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I'd be very interested in seeing those schematics/drawings...

Yeah, yeah, yeah... Been otherwise concerned. Such as the minor mishap yesterday where I ran over a rock the size of a tomoato, and it did $4000 worth of damage to my finely craft VW Golf.

Stoooipd Euro-cars... from now on, I buy SUV's, and run 'em by converting hippies into petroleum via TDP.

Anyway, the first set of... several. More when I'm less annoyed at rocks.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Inboard profile bits

 

[Orionblamblam]

The rest of the inboard profile.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Scott: I tried to join together and clean up the first schematic you posted, but the very first image you posted is simply missing too much detail to get it back in Photoshop and it will need redrawing I guess.

Here's my attempt, scaled down a bit:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Second set are much better...

 

[Orionblamblam]

History Part 1

 

[Orionblamblam]

History Part 2

 

[elmayerle]

*chuckle* I recognize the name on those history drawings, Gerry Huben. I worked for him on hte F-18 when I first started at Northrop and was in "holding" before my clearance for working on the B-2 came through.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Rotated and edited version of history

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Republic AP-75, from Aviation Week 5th December 1958, via Tony Buttler.

 

[elmayerle]

Republic AP-75, from Aviation Week 5th December 1958, via Tony Buttler.

Y'know, that one could be modelled, albeit with effort, from a F-103 kit, Damn, now I've gotta choose what to do with my old KPR vac-form kit. I may have to clone some parts, here.

 

[elmayerle]

Northrop N-176, eight-engine F-108 competitor. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!

What did they use, eight J85s? That might be an interesting approach to extending loitering time, just shut half of them down.

 

[sferrin]

Northrop N-176, eight-engine F-108 competitor. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!!!

Any other views of that?

 

[Antonio]

Any other views of that?

 

[Skybolt]

Ahah, so now it is OFFICIAL: the "LRI-X was a North Amercan-targeted affair" was a LEGEND!!!

Now, the Martin's proposals (n answer from Maryland yer, sigh...). And what about Convair? And I suspect Boeing too...
In the time being, the complete 3-views of the Northrop N-176...

Scott, Northrop extrapolated a smaller interceptor from its monster, the N-184. Any idea to what purpose/competitio/RFP?

And, by the way, the J-85s were "paired" four by four to create a new engine, colled J-83 (souece Docavia Northor, REALLY recommended)

Ah, and so that was the APR early mistery aircraft...

 

[Antonio]

According to Minidocavia (hey folks, this masterpiece only costs 20 €!!!...so what are you waiting to order a copy :)...N-176 wasn't the biggest LRI-X submission.

N-126 Lenght: 25,90 m, TO Weight: 34,350 Kg
N-144 Lenght: 35,55 m, TO Weight: 51,642 Kg
N-149 Lenght: 21,46 m, TO Weight: 25,277 Kg
N-167 Lenght: 27,00 m, TO Weight: 43,488 Kg
N-176 Lenght: 25,70 m, TO Weight: 23,420 Kg


I love the N-167 with its 4 J-79 engines....brute power

 

[Antonio]

An excellent source for Northrop LRI-X program is Airpower May 1991: "playing the proposal game" by Joe Mizrahi with Dr Ira Chart (from Northrop)

 

[lark]

Indeed, highly recommended .

 

[Skybolt]

N-144 and N-149 are os thge same conceptual line of thinking of the Soviet long-range interceptor,: like the La-250 Anaconda and the Tu-128, since they had to operate outside the cover of the ground-base AA control-system (SAGE and the like)

 

[sferrin]

According to Minidocavia (hey folks, this masterpiece only costs 20 €!!!...so what are you waiting to order a copy :)...N-176 wasn't the biggest LRI-X submission.

N-126 Lenght: 25,90 m, TO Weight: 34,350 Kg
N-144 Lenght: 35,55 m, TO Weight: 51,642 Kg
N-149 Lenght: 21,46 m, TO Weight: 25,277 Kg
N-167 Lenght: 27,00 m, TO Weight: 43,488 Kg
N-176 Lenght: 25,70 m, TO Weight: 23,420 Kg


I love the N-167 with its 4 J-79 engines....brute power

I've heard eight engines and four engines but the drawings only have two. So what's the scoop?

 

[Antonio]

I've heard eight engines and four engines but the drawings only have two. So what's the scoop?

J83 = 4 J-85 arranged in a cluster then externaly you see only one exhaust per J83 engine