WI West Germany buys British?

[Arjen]

a senior German politician

Franz Josef Strauss.
Lockheed also bribed the Dutch prince-consort Bernhard.

I wonder how much effect they had on the procurement process

We'll never know.
Strauss got away scot free at first, but the 1962 Spiegel Affair caused his removal as minister of defence anyway. When Bernhard's case spilled out into the open during the seventies, he was forbidden from ever appearing in uniform again. More action might have been taken, if the queen hadn't threatened to abdicate.

If the bribery in Germany and the Netherlands had become public during the early sixties, it would have been a black mark against Lockheed.

 

[Hood]

In Aeroplane Monthly's Lightning 70th Anniversary features this month, they have republished a Roland Beamont article from 1983, in which he states that when French pilots made their first exchange visit to Coltishall that the Lightning F.1 was still had a limited clearance of Mach 1.5. Beamont claims that when they went home, they told all and sundry that the Lightning was only capable of Mach 1.5 and that Dassault picked up on this for their Mirage sales campaign. Beamont claims this lost some early export deals.
More sources needed methinks to back up these claims - in any case it postdates the selection of F-104G by NATO.

Beamont also claims that it took a lot of effort from EE to persuade the MoS to test and clear the Lightning above Mach 1.7. I wonder if this is why there was reticence to offer it to Germany - the fact that in official eyes the Lightning was only guaranteed to reach Mach 1.7 and the MoS didn't want to promise any performance beyond that?

We also have to remember that during the 1957-58 haggling years, the F-104A was a reality and flying and indeed in 1958 set a number of world records for performance. The Super Tiger was also flying since 1956. The P.1A was only a testbed and the P.1B only just flown and, as Beamont says, slowly working up clearances - it didn't reach Mach 2 for the first time until 25 November 1958. The SR.177 didn't exist at all, and indeed the SR.53 had barely begun test flying and certainly wasn't a productionised fighter, in that sense the P.1B was ahead of SR.53.

If you had to choose in 1959 its clear the Americans have a 1-2 year lead at least, possibly more, and have proven performance. P.1B might be good, might not be, and even if SR.177 had gone ahead, it likely would not have flown until 1959 - so lagging behind all of these contenders and not offering any technical compensations for that delay.

 

[Scott Kenny]

As German i drop the SR.177 and take better product, either F-104 or Mirage III

Agreed, even without Lockheed bribery the F104 was a very good short ranged interceptor.

But if you start talking about using the "Missile with a man in it" as a nuclear striker, well, that's not such a good idea. See if the US will sell you F-101As.

Maybe a more rational take would be say that SARO's aircraft design division should have been wound up in the mid 30s, saving the government a lot of money that SARO milked out of them for various poor aircraft (mostly the flying boats), and freeing up the engineers to do more productive things.

It took the en masse construction of airports in WW2 before flying boats weren't worth building. Without all those paved airfields, there were very few places a heavy aircraft could land. But pretty much everywhere on earth where people live is accessible to a flying boat!

 

[Michel Van]

Agreed, even without Lockheed bribery the F104 was a very good short ranged interceptor.

it was very good high altitude interceptor
but Germans wanted Strike Fighter, Interceptor, reconnaissance, low-altitude flight nuclear Bomber, ground support.
All in ONE aircraft what Lockheed sold as the F-104G

here the unofficial sales talk:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XCYUEzrQdY&list=PL2s8HQcANIZfOAQtboPlpDXFi2dMp0Wzm&index=4

 

[Rule of cool]

How/why it wouldn't happen has been covered but what about a series of events where it could happen?

I think the SR177 is a non starter, it was not far enough along in its development cycle to be secure from both the 57 DWP drastically cutting RAF fighter strength and the German change of requirement in late 1957 from interceptor to strike-fighter.

That leaves the Lightning. The First thing would be to remove official British opposition to EE's efforts to sell it to the Germans, even a nuetral stance would have helped somewhat.

Secondly, the fact of the matter is that both the RAF and Luftwaffe have a similar requirement in 1958, the Luftwaffe for a strike-fighter and the RAF for a fighter-bomber/fighter-recce to replace the Venoms and Swifts around the world. Hawker lobbied to get the Hunter included in the Venom replacement trials, would it be possible for EE to get the P1B considered? Would RAF looking at the P1B for its fighter-bomber requirement be enough to lift it in the German competition, or would that require enthusiastic British government support?

 

[MadRat]

In a fantasy thread you can speculate Hawker P.1103 was a viable option with a German partner.

 

[Rule of cool]

In a fantasy thread you can speculate Hawker P.1103 was a viable option with a German partner.

Maybe not too fantastical. The P1103 was designed to meet F.155, and the Germans were interested in the SR177 which is akin to an early or interim meeting of a similar requirement. However it wasn’t one of the favoured proposals for F.155, apparently the FD3 was the frontrunner.

The P1103 was developed into the P1121, a strike-fighter which the Germans wanted from late 1957, and had reached the mock-up stage by mid-1958. However there was no interest from the RAF so Hawker stopped all work.

Of course neither of these designs was nearly as developed as the SR177, let alone the Lightning or F104, so would likely not even approached the required in-service date. Further the big F105 was one of the aircraft the Germans looked at and rejected, and it was in service during the time of the evaluation, so I suspect they weren’t looking for something so big and expensive despite its undoubted capabilities.

 

[uk 75]

The problem with this thread is that unlike France with Mirage the UK does not succeed in bringing into service a genuine supersonic multi role combat aircraft.
Not until Jaguar and Tornado.

The Hunter was at least a decade behind the F104 and Mirage, yet this was the only successful export combat aircraft the UK had to offer in 1959.

Britain does build great and beautiful combat aircraft but it is significant that it is the simple but effective Hawk trainer which replaces Hunter as an export winner.

Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, and Dassault have the skills needed to build and sell weapons systems, British firms in 1959 do not.

An exception to this could be made for the Royal Navy. Buccaneer, Sea Vixen and Sea Harrier were all effective weapons systems. But that was also why the RN demanded and got the F4 Phantom.

 

[TsrJoe]

'Germans wanting P1121' ? Do you have a reference source for that one ?

 

[Rule of cool]

'Germans wanting P1121' ? Do you have a reference source for that one ?

The Germans didn't want the P1121, they wanted a strike-fighter and that's what the P1121 was. But it was a paper plane, and export customers don't become the lead customer of advanced combat aircraft, they leave that to the development country.

 

[TsrJoe]

Other than the forementioned P.177 pitch, and actual exports of Gannet, Skeeter and SeaHawk, the Only ones iv found reference too in the archives as yet for FGR. are Hunter (via MDAP.), Buccaneer (pitched to Germany for Naval Strike), BAC. with Jaguar, and HSD. with the Harrier (Germany took part in the Tri Nation HS. Kestrel FGA.1 trials at West Raynam)

I'd be interested if there are any others in the files ? If the Lightning was formally pitched there may be a brochure in the BAENWHT. archives at Warton or some related correspondance ?

Cheers, Joe

 

[Hood]

https://fb.watch/tnbBGyFZe4

View: https://fb.watch/tnbBGyFZe4/

 

[Rule of cool]

The problem with this thread is that unlike France with Mirage the UK does not succeed in bringing into service a genuine supersonic multi role combat aircraft.

Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, and Dassault have the skills needed to build and sell weapons systems, British firms in 1959 do not.

Of course Britain didn't bring into service a genuine supersonic multi role combat aircraft, their Minister of Defence declared such aircraft obsolescent in April 1957. An alternative course of action open to him would be to not declare combat aircraft obsolescent, use the only supersonic aircraft they had in production to meet the RAF's 1958 fighter-bomber requirement.

Further, they could push this aircraft hard on the international market; offering government to government agreements, financing assistance and other useful terms to assist their aircraft on the international market.

That's what I hoped this thread would explore, and technical development these export success might foster.

 

[Hood]

Are there any sources for the claims made that the British government was unsupportive of selling the Lightning to Germany?

 

[Rule of cool]

Are there any sources for the claims made that the British government was unsupportive of selling the Lightning to Germany?

"While the P.1 had survived the Defence White Paper, export prospects practically disappeared. In later months, the government even went so far as to sabotage English Electric's own efforts to sell the aircraft to Germany - after frustrating and fruitless attempts to sell the aircraft to the Luftwaffe, EE discovered a government representative was actually telling the Germans not to buy the aircraft! "

I don't know how authoriative this website is, but a similar thing was happening with the SR177, with Sandy's telling the Germans the aircraft was done but Aubry Jones telling them it was still on. So it fits the era.

 

[Hood]

Ok, I trust Damien Burke as a usually reliable guy, but even so it feels a little sketchy, "government representative" is pretty vague.

 

[Rule of cool]

Ok, I trust Damien Burke as a usually reliable guy, but even so it feels a little sketchy, "government representative" is pretty vague.

It;s the Deep State.

 

[uk 75]

It is perhaps worth looking at what W Germany and other key NATO allies wanted the F104G to replace.

Republic F-84F Thunderstreak - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Long before Sandys the RAF had nothing in its inventory that matched the F84 as a Fighter Bomber. It had Canberras and Valiants to deliver its share of US supplied freefall nuclear weapons.

It had had to turn to Canadair for Sabres to equip RAF Germany because Swift was a dud and Hunters were late.

Lightning was a research aircraft with a radar and guns/missiles grafted on when it became clear there was nothing else.

Over-promising and under-delivering by UK industry was not Sandys' fault and was a good reason why US and French aircraft succeeded and ours did not.

 

[Rule of cool]

I've never seen any proposals or projects before or after the 57 DWP to replace the dozens of fighter-bomber sqns in 2TAF and around the world. It appears that the Venom replacement was a surprise, all of a sudden urgent in mid 1958. Granted the RAF did have a LOT of Canberras at the time, and a Canberra is a much better bomb truck than a mid 50s fighter-bomber.

Its been mentioned elsewhere that Sandys wasn't averse to some sort of global combat aircraft, something to fight limited wars. Is there any detail on this, or does it refer to the Venom replacement and the cheap, interim Hunter conversion fit the bill?

 

[Rule of cool]

I'm trying to think of the minimum change needed to make this happen.

The best I have so far is EE pushes a suitable strike fighter mod proposal for the P1B as soon as the Germans change their requirements in late 1957.

In early-mid 1958 the British government sees the financial/capability merit of a joint production order with the Germans and pushes for cooperation on the strike-fighter P1B if selected.

This increased competition makes it more difficult for Lockheed to bribe their way out without getting caught. Their attempts at bribes prove to be a risk and liability for the German defense minister.

Germany and Britain agree to order the strike-fighter version of the Lightning in late 1958.

 

[TsrJoe]

Hunter was the obvious Venom replacement

 

[Desertfox]

Maybe not too fantastical. The P1103 was designed to meet F.155, and the Germans were interested in the SR177 which is akin to an early or interim meeting of a similar requirement. However it wasn’t one of the favoured proposals for F.155, apparently the FD3 was the frontrunner.

The P1103 was developed into the P1121, a strike-fighter which the Germans wanted from late 1957, and had reached the mock-up stage by mid-1958. However there was no interest from the RAF so Hawker stopped all work.

Of course neither of these designs was nearly as developed as the SR177, let alone the Lightning or F104, so would likely not even approached the required in-service date. Further the big F105 was one of the aircraft the Germans looked at and rejected, and it was in service during the time of the evaluation, so I suspect they weren’t looking for something so big and expensive despite its undoubted capabilities.

Interesting that Germany did not want the F-105 since it was exactly what they wanted.

 

[Rule of cool]

According to Wiki an F105B cost $5.6m, an F105D $2.1m and an F104G $1.4m.

Now I'm not one for believing cost is a primary driver of combat aircraft selection, but obviously this is within reason. While a ~$1.7m Lightning vs $1.4m F104G might be bridged with offsets and other UK vs US stuff the $2.1m F105D is a huge chasm to bridge, especially given the US is likely to give the same terms and inducement for both aircraft.

 

[Rule of cool]

Hunter was the obvious Venom replacement

It's a minor increase in capability, as befits the begrudging and interim nature of the procurement. The Germans and other NATO F104 customers could have bought Hunters or some other refurbished 50s fighter, but they didn't because it wasn't a good long-terminvestment.

 

[TsrJoe]

April 1956, German Luftwaffe to recieve 324 Hunter aircraft as interim pending NA. F.100 and Convair F.102A during 1958-1959

 

[TsrJoe]

AWST.

 

[Rule of cool]

West Germany initially ordered 309 F-104s, and over time another 607; comprising 749 F/RF-104Gs, 137 TF-104Gs and 30 F-104Fs. If instead it chose the Lightning and Buccaneer how many aircraft would it buy? The Lightning and the Buccaneer will both be more expensive than the F104G, the J79 in the $1.4m F104G cost ~$170k and the Lightning and Buccaneer had 2 engines for starters. On the other side of the equation the RAF lost 50 of 280 Lightnings, 18% compared to 32% of F104s lost by Germany so presumably there will be a slightly lower need to attrition aircraft in later order batches.

Presumably they would still equip:
Luftwaffe - Lightning

• Aufklärungsgeschwader 51 "Immelmann" based at Ingolstadt / Manching and previously Bremgarten. (Reconnaissance)
• Aufklärungsgeschwader 52 based at Leck, Nordfriesland (Reconnaissance)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 31 "Boelcke" based at Nörvenich (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 32 based at Lechfeld (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 33 based at Büchel (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 34 based at Memmingen (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 36 based at Rheine-Hopsten (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdgeschwader 71 "Richthofen" based at Wittmundhafen (Interception)
• Jagdgeschwader 74 based at Neuburg (Interception)

Marineflieger - Buccaneer

• Marinefliegergeschwader 1 based at Schleswig-Jagel (Anti-Shipping & Reconnaissance)
• Marinefliegergeschwader 2 based at Eggebek (Anti-Shipping & Reconnaissance)

 

[Scott Kenny]

West Germany initially ordered 309 F-104s, and over time another 607; comprising 749 F/RF-104Gs, 137 TF-104Gs and 30 F-104Fs. If instead it chose the Lightning and Buccaneer how many aircraft would it buy? The Lightning and the Buccaneer will both be more expensive than the F104G, the J79 in the $1.4m F104G cost ~$170k and the Lightning and Buccaneer had 2 engines for starters. On the other side of the equation the RAF lost 50 of 280 Lightnings, 18% compared to 32% of F104s lost by Germany so presumably there will be a slightly lower need to attrition aircraft in later order batches.

Presumably they would still equip:
Luftwaffe - Lightning

• Aufklärungsgeschwader 51 "Immelmann" based at Ingolstadt / Manching and previously Bremgarten. (Reconnaissance)
• Aufklärungsgeschwader 52 based at Leck, Nordfriesland (Reconnaissance)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 31 "Boelcke" based at Nörvenich (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 32 based at Lechfeld (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 33 based at Büchel (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 34 based at Memmingen (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdbombergeschwader 36 based at Rheine-Hopsten (Fighter/Bomber)
• Jagdgeschwader 71 "Richthofen" based at Wittmundhafen (Interception)
• Jagdgeschwader 74 based at Neuburg (Interception)

Marineflieger - Buccaneer

• Marinefliegergeschwader 1 based at Schleswig-Jagel (Anti-Shipping & Reconnaissance)
• Marinefliegergeschwader 2 based at Eggebek (Anti-Shipping & Reconnaissance)

Well, looking at the later F-4 purchases, I'd guesstimate ~90 recon and ~180 interceptors.

 

[uk 75]

The F104 procurement by European NATO countries and Canada was unusual in that the type was not used by USAF units.
The F100 Super Sabre was the USAFE strike aircraft (plus small numbers of F105) while the F102 was its interceptor.
If W Germany wanted to improve NATO standardisation these two aircraft (Denmark and France used F100) were more likely choices than Lightning and Buccaneer.
The Starfighter buy was not replicated by NATO. The F16 came close but W Germany opted for its own F4 version in the intercept role and Tornado in the strike role.
Single role aircraft like Lightning and Buccaneer were not an option compared with F104. If the Luftwaffe had gone down this path F100 and F102 would have been the most likely choice as they were compatible with USAF weapons.

 

[Rule of cool]

Well, looking at the later F-4 purchases, I'd guesstimate ~90 recon and ~180 interceptors.

The 175 F4Fs re-equipped both fighter wings formerly equipped with F014s in the mid-70s, while the 88 RF4Es re-equipped only 1 of the 2 recce wings formerly equipped with F104s in the early 70s. I suspect a similar number of Lightnings as Phantoms would be needed to equip these 4 wings. Given the prevalence of the Lightning in Luftwaffe service in this scenario and subsequent leveraging of the bigger fleet compared to the Phantom less Lightnings would be needed for supporting roles.



The 210 Tornado IDS re-equipped 4 of the 5 fighter-bomber wings formerly operating F104s in the early 80s. I suspect the initial order of 309 F104s was to equip these 5 fighter-bomber wings plus whatever trainers. Given the Lightning is maybe 25% more expensive than the F104G perhaps this order is as low as ~250 units but probably more even if not the full 309.



The 112 Tornado IDS replaced both the anti-shipping wings formerly operating 168 F104s in the early 80s. However The Marineflieger only bought 66 Sea Hawks, so I don’t know how many Buccaneers they might have bought, maybe as low as 66 but probably over 100 as it is stand-alone fleet requiring a full suite of support functions.

 

[uk 75]

Any Marineflieger aircraft delivered in the 1960s would have used this missile.

AS.34 Kormoran - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Unfortunately RAF Buccaneers used in this role with Martel then Sea Eagle had problems by 1980 with metal fatigue issues.

Seen from the German point of view F104 then Tornado worked fine.

 

[Rule of cool]

The F104s, and presumably Buccaneers, entered Getman Navy service in the mid 60s and IIUC used AS30 until the AS34 Komoran was available from 1973. In either case the 2 crew Buccaneers would make good platforms for both missiles.

IIUC the metal fatigue in Buccaneers in the 80s was from ling careers flying from carriers in the RN and at low level overland with the RAF. It had little to nothing to do with Martel carriage.

 

[red admiral]

Beamont also claims that it took a lot of effort from EE to persuade the MoS to test and clear the Lightning above Mach 1.7.

But it wasn't just "testing". It was design and build and test of larger and larger fins because the basic design had insufficient directional stability. And then the cost of retrofitting these to the fleet... For likely negligible increase in effectiveness in the interceptor role compared to the likes of funding Red Top development.

Of course Britain didn't bring into service a genuine supersonic multi role combat aircraft, their Minister of Defence declared such aircraft obsolescent in April 1957

As stated before this was "interceptors were obsolescent" - which was obviously true as they weren't effective Vs ballistic missiles. Whereas the UK continued to develop and buy combat aircraft.

I've never seen any proposals or projects before or after the 57 DWP to replace the dozens of fighter-bomber sqns in 2TAF and around the world.

That's because the RAF just moved previous 1st line fighters too this role, but these interceptors were getting more and more specialised and expensive and so less suitable for conversion to this fighter bomber role.

 

[Hood]

But it wasn't just "testing". It was design and build and test of larger and larger fins because the basic design had insufficient directional stability. And then the cost of retrofitting these to the fleet... For likely negligible increase in effectiveness in the interceptor role compared to the likes of funding Red Top development.

Designing and building a new fin is comparatively easy and those tail fins failed on the two-seat Lightnings so would have been required at some point anyway. Few aircraft in this era were aerodynamically perfect in prototype form (Hunter T.7 canopy fairing drag for example) and of course early onset of fatigue issues on several aircraft resulted in additional wingsets well into the early 1990s for various aircraft at some expense.

Plus you'd have to question the wisdom of a twin Avon fighter with bags of power to go over Mach 2 and you have to limit it to Mach 1.7 which a cheaper single-engined fighter could reach and probably with lower fuel consumption and greater range too.

 

[red admiral]

Plus you'd have to question the wisdom of a twin Avon fighter with bags of power to go over Mach 2 and you have to limit it to Mach 1.7

Maybe EE should have simply designed it better in the first place, rather than complaining that the government didn't give them even more money to fix it, after already funding it's development.

And hey, Super marine didn't even get the twin Avon Scimitar above the Mach

 

[Rule of cool]

That's because the RAF just moved previous 1st line fighters too this role, but these interceptors were getting more and more specialised and expensive and so less suitable for conversion to this fighter bomber role.

The closest I have found to support this isea is the January 1957 (pre DFWP) Plan L that has 4 x Hunter F6 sqns dedicated to the ground attack role in 2TAF in Germany from 1957. That said in 1957 the F6 was the latest model and hadn't been adapted to carry bombs or rockets. Further even pre DWP the Day Fighter/Fifghter bomber components of 2TAF in Germany was to drop from 19 sqns in 1956 to 4 sqns in 1958, while Canberra sqns increased from 3 to 4.

As stated before this was "interceptors were obsolescent" - which was obviously true as they weren't effective Vs ballistic missiles. Whereas the UK continued to develop and buy combat aircraft.

In 1958 when Germany was looking at getting a Mach 2 strike fighter to serve for 20 years and most other air forces were following suit the RAF converted ~170 obsolescent day fighters into fighter-bomber/fighter-recce as an interim means to cover the gap until missiles were available but never developed the missile.

 

[red admiral]

The closest I have found to support this idea is the January 1957 (pre DFWP) Plan

There's an entire chapter on it in Gibson's Typhoon to Typhoon. Arguably the same approach taken today with Typhoon FGR4.

Easy response is to ask what dedicated "fighter-bomber" did the RAF ever develop? Answer: none.

the RAF converted ~170 obsolescent day fighters into fighter-bomber/fighter-recce as an interim means to cover the gap until missiles were available but never developed the missile.

Er no. The gap was in interceptors, where the Lightning was the interim until Bloodhound came into service. And it did, and then the capability was significantly increased with Mk II.

As covered before in previous threads, Hunter was ok as a fighter-bomber up till the 90s when double-digit SAMs started appearing. But I'd still prefer a Jaguar (when available) in the strike role for the better nav suite and low level performance.

 

[Scott Kenny]

In 1958 when Germany was looking at getting a Mach 2 strike fighter to serve for 20 years and most other air forces were following suit the RAF converted ~170 obsolescent day fighters into fighter-bomber/fighter-recce as an interim means to cover the gap until missiles were available but never developed the missile.

Bloodhound?

(And I was Ninja'd by red admiral)

 

[Rule of cool]

Some more numbers to clarify the German requirement. The Luftwaffe received 748 F104s and the Marineflieger 168, production/deliveries continued to 1973 however by then the Germans had lost ~178 F104s in crashes on their way to a total of 292 F104 losses.

The US supplied 30 F104Fs and built another 399 F/RF/TF104Gs, some of which must have went to Germany. Messerschmitt built 260 F104Gs, assembled 23 TF104G, Canada also built 140 F104G that were delivered to foreign users under MAP. IIUC Germany also received aircraft from other sources in the Sale of the Century production pool.

If the F104 production is any guide if the Germans had bought British they'd only build maybe 1/4 of their own requirement, the rest would have to come from Britain. I don't doubt Hawker Siddely could deliver an extra ~100 Buccaneers from the mid to late 60s, but BAC building an extra 350+ Lightnings from 1960 to 1966 would require significant investment.

 

[Rule of cool]

Bloodhound?

(And I was Ninja'd by red admiral)

Not very useful to cover the Hunter's air to ground missions.