What do people think about current books?

[CJGibson]

No they can't. Any publisher/author putting notes online should be dealt with the Petrograd NKVD paper method.

Thanks! I just won a fiver!

Chris

 

[Owens Z]

30 years ago, I remember going to the USAF Museum at Wright-Pat and being stunned by the size and scope of the bookstore within the gift shop. All before EPay, Amazon, etc. and titles I would never see at Borders (long gone) or Barnes & Noble. Go there today, it is a gift shop with an occasional book here and there.

I cannot comment about the museum store's bookshelves at the monumental USAF Museum on Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, because my first and so-far last visit there was in 1992, soon after Desert Storm. (I remember I walked up to and put my hand on the skin of the F-117 stealth plane displayed there, which would have gotten me shot just a few years earlier. And with the security rigamarole worldwide post-9/11, anything like that is unlikely today.)

I can comment that on my occasional visits to bookstores in London, to the RAF Museum's shop, and (especially) to the extensive book selection at the also-monumental Imperial War Museum Duxford, I have been struck by the number of British books of interest that never appear in bookstores here in the USA or on the Barnes & Noble or Amazon USA websites and thus remain entirely unknown. Not the color-illustrated books on glossy paper that are what this Secret Projects website mostly features in its 'Books & Marketplace' thread: as far as I can tell, those all are advertised, and available for sale, worldwide. I mean the black-type-on-plain-paper kind of book. The top bestselling Brit authors like Antony Beevor and Max Hastings obtain American co-publishers (sometimes with a revised book title), but as I found, there are plenty of others writing engrossingly on military/naval history, European history, cryptology & espionage, and other subjects whose books are only advertised and sold in the UK. On each return trip from London, I have brought home as many as I could carry, and I am looking at those books on my shelves as I write this: too many to list here. I wonder whether this matter is only one way, or instead if there are indeed books of general interest in bookshops here in the USA that likewise remain entirely unknown to UK readers.

P.S. And I forgot to include the bookshelves at the shop of the famed Bovington Tank Museum, at which I spent a fascinating day in 2022, taking the train out from Waterloo Station...

 

[gatoraptor]

I was surprised to find on my last visit to London (many years ago) that even the modest book store at Victoria Station (I believe it was a W.H. Smith) had a decent selection of books on aviation!

 

[Pasoleati]

Thanks! I just won a fiver!

Chris

50 % minimum of that is mine! Putting notes of a book online is like selling a car with the engine having to be bought separately.

 

[CJGibson]

Like a winning racehorse, you might get an apple. Or a wonky carrot. Probably the carrot.

I hope SPF members are also aware of the Facebook Group The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club (see here https://www.facebook.com/groups/359410134220076/ ). Worth a look if you are reading this thread.

While the high cost of books has been decried long and weary on there (and on here), there appears to be no appetite amongst publishers to address this. One way of reducing these costs is to reduce page count, possible to a certain extent by better design. Put the ~30% of a book that is citation pages online and, while you won't reduce the cost of a book by 30%, it might reduce the cost in some way, especially in low print-run works. (Oh! Don't mention Works on TAEBC. No, they don't hate Queen)

The citation racket has been used in the academic world to get funding, fair enough if that's what it takes but I see no need for it in the 'amateur' world. I use the word 'amateur' to mean we do it for love, not money, rather than poorly produced*. References, yes, but pages and pages of citations to namecheck your mates? No.

Interestingly, one publisher, in a post on the The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club, has declared the UK aviation book business 'finished' and has said they won't be producing paper content any more (I paraphrase on both points here, please feel free to clarify if you're reading this). I find this alarming as they produce good books on interesting, and niche, subjects.

I have (long and weary again) been Cassandra-like in my forecasts of The Big Boy's Book of Aircraft in Colour being the only aircraft books available. That might just be where we are heading if quality material is only available under an Elsevier-type model as used for academic journals.

Chris

*I'll keep schtum on this matter.

 

[Arjen]

I use the word 'amateur' to mean we do it for love, not money, rather than poorly produced

You fit the bill.

 

[madhon]

Interestingly, one publisher, in a post on the The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club, has declared the UK aviation book business 'finished' and has said they won't be producing paper content any more (I paraphrase on both points here, please feel free to clarify if you're reading this). I find this alarming as they

Which publisher was that ? Assume they will be producing more e-books instead ?

 

[Foo Fighter]

I think more than a few times paper books have been written off, to use a pun. Cycles of use will continue as per and no doubt continue to change. Plus ca change.

 

[Hood]

Which publisher was that ? Assume they will be producing more e-books instead ?

Harpia Publishing.

I guess being in the glossy paperback market makes it hard to get much return, especially when Bookzines are coming up much the same size and a little cheaper these days with poorer quality paper.

 

[edwest4]

Like a winning racehorse, you might get an apple. Or a wonky carrot. Probably the carrot.

I hope SPF members are also aware of the Facebook Group The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club (see here https://www.facebook.com/groups/359410134220076/ ). Worth a look if you are reading this thread.

While the high cost of books has been decried long and weary on there (and on here), there appears to be no appetite amongst publishers to address this. One way of reducing these costs is to reduce page count, possible to a certain extent by better design. Put the ~30% of a book that is citation pages online and, while you won't reduce the cost of a book by 30%, it might reduce the cost in some way, especially in low print-run works. (Oh! Don't mention Works on TAEBC. No, they don't hate Queen)

The citation racket has been used in the academic world to get funding, fair enough if that's what it takes but I see no need for it in the 'amateur' world. I use the word 'amateur' to mean we do it for love, not money, rather than poorly produced*. References, yes, but pages and pages of citations to namecheck your mates? No.

Interestingly, one publisher, in a post on the The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club, has declared the UK aviation book business 'finished' and has said they won't be producing paper content any more (I paraphrase on both points here, please feel free to clarify if you're reading this). I find this alarming as they produce good books on interesting, and niche, subjects.

I have (long and weary again) been Cassandra-like in my forecasts of The Big Boy's Book of Aircraft in Colour being the only aircraft books available. That might just be where we are heading if quality material is only available under an Elsevier-type model as used for academic journals.

Chris

*I'll keep schtum on this matter.

Paper prices. They either go up slowly or they go up quickly. I get quotes from different printers for our books. They have no control over it either. The same with postage and package delivery services like UPS. Every year, like clockwork, shipping prices go up. The publisher must adjust book prices accordingly. We look at what our competitors are charging and undercut them.

The UK and Europe are another matter. What with VAT and customs charges. Without going too far afield, but inflation in the U.S. and rising taxes in the UK, means sales have gone down. The choice for the average person is paying that bill or buying a book. When household expenses go up, sales go down.

I was taught how to do book layout by hand. There are only so many possible ways to reduce page count. There are only so many ways to lay out a page. The size of the type can only go down to a point. The average reader needs the type at a certain size.

As far as citations, they are necessary. Especially for history books. Your audience expects accuracy. That accuracy is assured by providing references anyone can check. As far as art, you can't drop in a map at just any size. It has to be at a readable size. The same with photos. Some will always complain that both are never large enough but look at your own library.

For decades, the U.S. Postal Service offered a shipping method called Surface Mail. That meant we could send pounds of books to Australia, for example, for little money. It took four to six weeks to arrive but people were glad to wait. When that ended in 2007, we lost 99% of our foreign customers overnight. The Post Office cited rising costs, as if costs had not been rising for all the years prior. Shortly after, ebook readers appeared everywhere. I read how they were a popular Christmas gift in the UK but most stayed in their boxes. Most people still prefer printed books. In reality, a barrier had been created between the United States and Europe, along with the rest of the world. It was an ebook or nothing. No one could justify paying the same amount for shipping as the cost of the books ordered. Without sounding too gloom and doom, but this result was pre-planned. The book trade knew this was coming. That said, printed book sales, which I monitor, are still high in the U.S. Not as high as during the so-called pandemic but still high.

For us, the idea of printing books in color only applies to doing the work in a country I shall not name.

Finally, too many people are doing military intelligence a great service, which they pay for. A combination of addiction and perceived need means most people are carrying (stupid) smart phones. They look at them constantly. This is, in my view, a waste of human potential. These devices are no substitute for face to face interactions.

 

[martinbayer]

Like a winning racehorse, you might get an apple. Or a wonky carrot. Probably the carrot.

I hope SPF members are also aware of the Facebook Group The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club (see here https://www.facebook.com/groups/359410134220076/ ). Worth a look if you are reading this thread.

While the high cost of books has been decried long and weary on there (and on here), there appears to be no appetite amongst publishers to address this. One way of reducing these costs is to reduce page count, possible to a certain extent by better design. Put the ~30% of a book that is citation pages online and, while you won't reduce the cost of a book by 30%, it might reduce the cost in some way, especially in low print-run works. (Oh! Don't mention Works on TAEBC. No, they don't hate Queen)

The citation racket has been used in the academic world to get funding, fair enough if that's what it takes but I see no need for it in the 'amateur' world. I use the word 'amateur' to mean we do it for love, not money, rather than poorly produced*. References, yes, but pages and pages of citations to namecheck your mates? No.

Interestingly, one publisher, in a post on the The Aviation Enthusiast's Book Club, has declared the UK aviation book business 'finished' and has said they won't be producing paper content any more (I paraphrase on both points here, please feel free to clarify if you're reading this). I find this alarming as they produce good books on interesting, and niche, subjects.

I have (long and weary again) been Cassandra-like in my forecasts of The Big Boy's Book of Aircraft in Colour being the only aircraft books available. That might just be where we are heading if quality material is only available under an Elsevier-type model as used for academic journals.

Chris

*I'll keep schtum on this matter.

Books should remain to be stand alone self contained sources of information that do not require any access to any electronic media at all to reap their full value to the reader. For good reason nobody ever asks "Which three books and a solar powered laptop with broadband satellite internet connectivity would you bring to a deserted island?"

 

[Arjen]

I appreciate your point, and in an ideal world I would prefer a book including its notes. If the notes being provided electronically is the difference between a book being published or not, I will happily print the notes myself.

 

[Artie Bob]

Books should remain to be stand alone self contained sources of information that do not require any access to any electronic media at all to reap their full value to the reader. For good reason nobody ever asks "Which three books and a solar powered laptop with broadband satellite internet connectivity would you bring to a deserted island?"

Having around 2000 books, soft cover publications, etc.(does not include about 10,00 periodicals in the barn, photos, documents, etc.),I am continually amazed at the number of good quality aviation books still becoming available. Don't really care what the bindings are like, but I do appreciate good paper and high quality printing. Considering that when I really started buying books, a new Porsche could be had for $3000 (give or take) and now is about 30 times that cost. There are a lot of pretty good books in the $60 dollar range. I could not get much of a book for $2 in the old days, plus the titles and range of content were much more limited. I did spend over $100 for a recent Porsche book, but most of the aviation books are well under that and many of them have really good content. As to e-format, when I go to the mountains of Costa Rica in the winter, I take my laptop with an external hard drive with about 10K books and 9k periodicals on it. I never run out of good stuff to read. Could not do that in the old days! Inflation is real, but book supply is amazingly robust.

ArtieBoB

 

[martinbayer]

Having around 2000 books, soft cover publications, etc.(does not include about 10,00 periodicals in the barn, photos, documents, etc.),I am continually amazed at the number of good quality aviation books still becoming available. Don't really care what the bindings are like, but I do appreciate good paper and high quality printing. Considering that when I really started buying books, a new Porsche could be had for $3000 (give or take) and now is about 30 times that cost. There are a lot of pretty good books in the $60 dollar range. I could not get much of a book for $2 in the old days, plus the titles and range of content were much more limited. I did spend over $100 for a recent Porsche book, but most of the aviation books are well under that and many of them have really good content. As to e-format, when I go to the mountains of Costa Rica in the winter, I take my laptop with an external hard drive with about 10K books and 9k periodicals on it. I never run out of good stuff to read. Could not do that in the old days! Inflation is real, but book supply is amazingly robust.

ArtieBoB

No argument here - I am not arguing against e-books as a valid choice. What I *AM* arguing against is putting part of the information that completes a physical book, such as a list of sources, references, or websites, online *only* instead of also including it in print.

 

[edwest4]

No argument here - I am not arguing against e-books as a valid choice. What I *AM* arguing against is putting part of the information that completes a physical book, such as a list of sources, references, or websites, online *only* instead of also including it in print.

I agree 100%. All of the information should come in one printed book - not the book plus what's out in the ether.

 

[Foo Fighter]

It means I will buy fewer books but reduced font, tighter spaces and lacking reference material is out for me. Good quality print I can sit and read at my liesure rather than squinting at if I am sitting in my reading chair before bed.

I have heard all the arguments about eboooks and if it floats the boat of others, go for it. I have my own opinion and frankly being a certified old git, I will stick to what I like so, some of the companies that choose/opt for cheaper poorer quaility print on demand results, I shall not darken your door.

I understand but, when I buy something it has to be right.

 

[CJGibson]

I agree 100%. All of the information should come in one printed book - not the book plus what's out in the ether.

We did that, put additional info out in the ether, with Overscan's P.1121 and that seemed to be well received.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/register-here-for-access-to-camms-last-fighter-projects-extras-forum.25822/page-2#post-725349

My drawings, at larger size, are available for the asking which has also been mentioned for the Westland Helicopters book.

Chris

 

[Pasoleati]

1. I have never seen a book in which one could cut the page count by 30 % by eliminating notes. If the note apparatus is properly done (exploiting all "allowed" cuts like not repeating full source name every time), the notes take up a few per cent at most.

2. Assumption of "amateur readers" do not care about notes is an appalling attitude. That very attitude is directly linked to the attitude that military history books must be full of strong adjectives and witty dialogue in the name of "easy reading".

3. A small and tight font is not necessarily hard to read. On the contrary. And here lies massive possibilities to reduce page count even by over 50 %*. The above-mentioned Harpia is one worst publishers ever in this regard.

*For example, in Osprey serial books there have been examples of well over 100 % difference between word count per page. An exemplary execution is in "NVA and Viet Cong" by Ken Conboy (Elite series).

 

[CJGibson]

Anyone got hard copies of Will Ireland's Kamikaze Hunters or Pathfinders? I have them on Kindle, but wondered if the hard copies have ~29% and ~21% etc notes at the end.

Chris

 

[Foo Fighter]

1. I have never seen a book in which one could cut the page count by 30 % by eliminating notes. If the note apparatus is properly done (exploiting all "allowed" cuts like not repeating full source name every time), the notes take up a few per cent at most.

2. Assumption of "amateur readers" do not care about notes is an appalling attitude. That very attitude is directly linked to the attitude that military history books must be full of strong adjectives and witty dialogue in the name of "easy reading".

3. A small and tight font is not necessarily hard to read. On the contrary. And here lies massive possibilities to reduce page count even by over 50 %*. The above-mentioned Harpia is one worst publishers ever in this regard.

*For example, in Osprey serial books there have been examples of well over 100 % difference between word count per page. An exemplary execution is in "NVA and Viet Cong" by Ken Conboy (Elite series).

You only have to watch a little 'news' to see how the general publiuc are seen as 'morons' and how information is dumbed down for consumption by sheep.

The attitude appears to be for consumption first and education, well, sometime in the distanbt future if they can fit it in to their busy schedules. Facts are generally discarded as inconvenient. Newqs media calling anything with a 'gun' a 'tank' for example?

One of the problems I have with mediua generally. Thank gosh for the folk here who actually write for those of us with working grey matter. I will never be able to thank you enough. You much more than 'rock'.

 

[Justo Miranda]

It means I will buy fewer books but reduced font, tighter spaces and lacking reference material is out for me. Good quality print I can sit and read at my liesure rather than squinting at if I am sitting in my reading chair before bed.

I have heard all the arguments about eboooks and if it floats the boat of others, go for it. I have my own opinion and frankly being a certified old git, I will stick to what I like so, some of the companies that choose/opt for cheaper poorer quaility print on demand results, I shall not darken your door.

I understand but, when I buy something it has to be right.

I have a new argument about E-books:

I just uploaded an 865-page book with 113,300 words and 350 illustrations to Amazon in just fifteen minutes, it's already on sale and I'll receive my commission monthly in 90 days.

A publisher would normally take between one and three years and I would only receive my commission one year after publication.

 

[edwest4]

I have researched ebook sales. Road to riches? Perhaps in a few cases. But you can't put up a book on Amazon for $1.98 or $9.99 and expect to sell thousands. Not in most cases. Especially when thousands are also putting up ebooks in the hope of getting the attention of potential readers. The preceding was an observation, not an attempt to convince others to not give ebook publishing a try.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I have a new argument about E-books:

I just uploaded an 865-page book with 113,300 words and 350 illustrations to Amazon in just fifteen minutes, it's already on sale and I'll receive my commission monthly in 90 days.

A publisher would normally take between one and three years and I would only receive my commission one year after publication.

I concede, very happily, that we need to ensure authors such as yourself, get remuneration in a swift and efficient manner. We lose out in a big way when this is not achieved as the incentive to write these marvels (Which we benefit from immenseley) is removed and frankly even the publishers lose out from a failure to move remuneration in a timely fashion to the origins of these wonderful products.

Perhaps I am too much of a dinosaur or an old git or whatever.

Perhaps we should have some sort of fund which we contribuite to, to ensure these works of wonder continue, not something I can be an authority on but certainly, they must be some manner if protection which we can all benefit from. Suggestions?

Being post viral and not 100%, I appologise of my word finding skills are in a lifeboat and far away. No damn postcard though. Lazy 'gits.

 

[Foo Fighter]

As am addendum. Sara who is my ex went up Kilimanjaro some six years post diagnosis of MS. She and her assistant came up with a 'thing' called "Cake Friday" which was a Friday where they gave a cake to folk around them. Somewhat similar I suppose to 'pay it forwards'. The idea being to improve morale of those around 'US'.

I like to promote this mind set, help each other to help each other.

Failing health means I am more aware of vulnerbilities of life, of how fragile we are and I would like to see something we can contribute to which enhances our ability to continue to share and enhance knowledge, we ARE supposedly an inteligent species after all.

Thankfully we have this site and a huge collection of talented people, "Noli illegitemi carborundum".

 

[Justo Miranda]

I have researched ebook sales. Road to riches? Perhaps in a few cases. But you can't put up a book on Amazon for $1.98 or $9.99 and expect to sell thousands. Not in most cases. Especially when thousands are also putting up ebooks in the hope of getting the attention of potential readers. The preceding was an observation, not an attempt to convince others to not give ebook publishing a try.

You know as well as I do that in today's world only the number of publications counts, not the quality of these, unfortunately that is especially true in the scientific world and in many cases, it is used as an ideological tool to discredit research that contradicts the only accepted narrative.

A book that does not deal with sex, the royal family or a serious threat to our lifestyle will never make the author rich, in my case the forty books that still produce small benefits for me are enough to pay for health insurance, a few days of vacation and little else. I hope that the other authors will do a little better in economic terms.

I also suffer from the usual venomous criticism and the occasional threat; I think the only way to get a bestseller would be to die at the hands of a disillusioned fan.

But as Obi Wan said... not yet.

 

[Justo Miranda]

I concede, very happily, that we need to ensure authors such as yourself, get remuneration in a swift and efficient manner. We lose out in a big way when this is not achieved as the incentive to write these marvels (Which we benefit from immenseley) is removed and frankly even the publishers lose out from a failure to move remuneration in a timely fashion to the origins of these wonderful products.

Perhaps I am too much of a dinosaur or an old git or whatever.

Perhaps we should have some sort of fund which we contribuite to, to ensure these works of wonder continue, not something I can be an authority on but certainly, they must be some manner if protection which we can all benefit from. Suggestions?

Being post viral and not 100%, I appologise of my word finding skills are in a lifeboat and far away. No damn postcard though. Lazy 'gits.

I don't know any author who works for money, most of us do it because of the need to communicate our ideas, perhaps a form of immortality, not because of the quality of our work but because of the possibility of recovering lost knowledge for posterity. Who knows? Perhaps one day the contents of Secretprojects will be included in the Galactic Encyclopedia for eons.

 

[Justo Miranda]

As am addendum. Sara who is my ex went up Kilimanjaro some six years post diagnosis of MS. She and her assistant came up with a 'thing' called "Cake Friday" which was a Friday where they gave a cake to folk around them. Somewhat similar I suppose to 'pay it forwards'. The idea being to improve morale of those around 'US'.

I like to promote this mind set, help each other to help each other.

Failing health means I am more aware of vulnerbilities of life, of how fragile we are and I would like to see something we can contribute to which enhances our ability to continue to share and enhance knowledge, we ARE supposedly an inteligent species after all.

Thankfully we have this site and a huge collection of talented people, "Noli illegitemi carborundum".

I do what I can, I always try to respond to requests for information from other members of the forum or the outside world: modelers, video game creators, restorers of old aircraft, journalists looking for technical support, etc.

What a surprise, in my rusty Latin I had translated it as "Never use a carburetor of a little-known brand".

 

[Justo Miranda]

I concede, very happily, that we need to ensure authors such as yourself, get remuneration in a swift and efficient manner. We lose out in a big way when this is not achieved as the incentive to write these marvels (Which we benefit from immenseley) is removed and frankly even the publishers lose out from a failure to move remuneration in a timely fashion to the origins of these wonderful products.

Perhaps I am too much of a dinosaur or an old git or whatever.

Perhaps we should have some sort of fund which we contribuite to, to ensure these works of wonder continue, not something I can be an authority on but certainly, they must be some manner if protection which we can all benefit from. Suggestions?

Being post viral and not 100%, I appologise of my word finding skills are in a lifeboat and far away. No damn postcard though. Lazy 'gits.

By a strange coincidence, tonight before entering the forum I started writing a book about the Foo Fighters

 

[aim9xray]

Who knows? Perhaps one day the contents of Secretprojects will be included in the Galactic Encyclopedia for eons.

More likely, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to Aerospace"...

 

[Arjen]

With "Don't Print" in large friendly letters on the cover.

 

[edwest4]

I don't know any author who works for money, most of us do it because of the need to communicate our ideas, perhaps a form of immortality, not because of the quality of our work but because of the possibility of recovering lost knowledge for posterity. Who knows? Perhaps one day the contents of Secretprojects will be included in the Galactic Encyclopedia for eons.

I know authors who work for money. Book publishing is my source of income.

I would prefer to become immortal by not dying.

 

[Arjen]

I would prefer to become immortal by not dying.

The Sunday afternoons would get you down. Just ask Wowbagger the Inifinitely Prolonged.

 

[edwest4]

The Sunday afternoons would get you down. Just ask Wowbagger the Inifinitely Prolonged.

I've got a long list of used bookstores to visit.

 

[Arjen]

They will all disappear every few decades. Now think millenia. Classifying beetles WILL keep you busy for a while longer (with no end in sight), but imagine yourself keeping that up for a poxy million years.

 

[edwest4]

They will all disappear every few decades. Now think millenia. Classifying beetles WILL keep you busy for a while longer, but imagine yourself keeping that up for a poxy million years.

I am hitching a ride on the first interplanetary spaceship, followed by the next.

 

[Arjen]

If you prize your sanity, you will be asleep most of the way.
Longevity? Yes please. Immortality? Ask me again in a century or so.

 

[edwest4]

If you prize your sanity, you will be asleep most of the way.

I am talking to this guy about a faster than light drive. I've got a few suggestions.

 

[Arjen]

Apologies for multiple edits.

 

[pathology_doc]

I've seen that. The solution is to provide the necessary primary documents.

Provided that they even exist, or are readable by the audience.

On the first: There's a lot probably still secret and a lot that likely got dumpstered once it was declassified (or just destroyed securely and still nominally secret). I want detailed technical histories of the AIM-4, Fireflash, Firestreak and Red Top as detailed as anything John Forbat ever wrote (or more so), but even if I had keys to all the archives and permission slips signed by God Himself, would the stuff I need to write the history I want even be there?

On the second: Let's imagine I could wave a magic wand and have all the primary sources Dan Sharp and Calum Douglas used for their book on the Me309 instantly teleported to my desk. It wouldn't make a lick of difference because I can't read or speak German.

Likewise, possibly pertaining to both problems: if I could ask God to deliver me every scrap of paper ever written in the Soviet Union pertaining to what NATO called the AA-1 Alkali - I'd need to wish for fluency in Russian too.

 

[Justo Miranda]

They will all disappear every few decades. Now think millenia. Classifying beetles WILL keep you busy for a while longer (with no end in sight), but imagine yourself keeping that up for a poxy million years.

beetles?