What do people think about current books?

[southwestforests]

Even in the 1990s it was normally necessary to ask a bookstore to order the aviation, railroad, military titles I had learned about and wanted.
There were 2 locally owned bookstores I enjoyed using, one on Kansas City, one in Lee's Summit. Both are long gone.

What I do know from talking to them and working retail myself, is that items with a really slow turnover rate are usually not stocked:
display space needs to make a regular and at least somewhat predictable contribution to paying the bills.
A title that you might sell 1 of every 5th year fails to meet that.

Even before the internet was available to me I enjoyed ordering books from places such as; Squadron's mail order hobby shop, Historic Aviation, and direct from the publisher at Schiffer.

"Object permanence" is a thing, or it is at least a personal issue with me.
I use the internet.
I enjoy the internet.
I save pictures and web pages from the internet.
But mostly,
Is there a book about that?
Books are real.
I'm not sure if the internet is real.
It vanishes when the machinery is turned off.
I see the books, they are still there on the shelves.

 

[Justo Miranda]

I would say that it really depends, as there is a lot of information which simply is not available online and only comes in books. This is especially true for the more obscure things. My research on Maltese aviation history for instance comes fully from books, barring small amounts of contextual information I take from online sources. Again, a lot of things I research regarding British Weapon Systems come in books. I think that the internet and books have a symbiotic relationship. As for the wider, less niche aviation community though, I cannot really comment.

I have never heard of a book specialized in Maltese aviation, it would be a very interesting topic because in my archives I have only been able to find references to the blue Spitfires painted on aircraft carriers, to the American Spitfires based in Gozo and to the Reggiane 2001’s.

 

[southwestforests]

Question - Aviation section of book and mortar bookstores is being discussed, but who might have info on public libraries?
What is the situation with them?
I've seen a decline since 1970s.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Well, Dave Forster is very interested in the obscure black boxes, so much that he wrote a book about them I'm much more interested in the technology than the 'actual experiences of RAF aircrews'.

This shows that no book caters for all audiences, and the importance of communicating clearly the contents. I recall a one star review of a Secret Projects series book that said something to the effect of "just a bunch of paper designs that didn't get built".

Robert Hopkins III is a former pilot, and I'm pretty sure his book will be much more to your taste.

Excellent book

 

[Justo Miranda]

I wish the best success for all authors, my personal experience has been a slow decrease in sales of physical books since Covid and a more irregular behavior in the interest of potential readers of virtual books in aviation issues, but now I do not dare to define a trend, I need next year's data.

 

[alberchico]

Even though the publishing landscape is rapidly changing I feel that there are enough books being published on aviation and military topics to keep everyone happy. The rise of self publishing platforms have certainly helped by making it cheaper to bring a book to publication. For example I recently was browsing Amazon and found this book at a reasonable price and bought it on a whim. Even thought the cover image looks a bit amateurish it is a comprehensive and well illustrated book detailing the rise and fall of the non-scheduled industry that thrived after WW2 in the U.S. as a result of fly by night operators buying up old cast off piston aircraft and flying the pants off of them.

https://www.amazon.com/Second-Wind-Aerial-Leviathans-Technological/dp/B0BPVWR3HF/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2H9J6CL2F7JD4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ueegqQiXNrn284OXqeOLAw.xvpObZRLltPn7D_lj2XeMEVmlSdhgKRxZC166h2HO8s&dib_tag=se&keywords=second+wind+of+the+aerial+leviathan&qid=1736220004&sprefix=second+wind+of%2Caps%2C119&sr=8-1

For me the Helion at War series does an amazing covering just about every obscure military and aviation topic imaginable. Extensively researched and illustrated, they are well worth the price.

Middle East@War Series | Military History Books | Helion & Company

Middle East@War, just one of the series of military history books available to buy online from Helion & Company.

www.helion.co.uk

Europe@War Series | Military History Books | Helion & Company

Europe@War, just one of the series of military history books available to buy online from Helion & Company.

www.helion.co.uk

One thing I do lament is the death of high quality encyclopedias. For me the book below is the last great encyclopedia on civil aircraft that was published that was accessible to the average reader. Published in 1999, I would still recommend it as a gift for someone if you can find a copy in good condition. The encyclopedias that cover civil aviation today that are published by bargain companies like Amber Books are of such low quality/ effort that they're not even worth mentioning.

 

[CJGibson]

American exceptionalism?

I quote Francis verbatim.

Chris

 

[Owens Z]

As documents continue to be declassified going forward, books of this nature are a must. The early Cold War period needs to be fleshed out in detail. The puzzle pieces put in. Our brief Soviet ally became a threat before the last bullets of the Second World War were fired. The Soviets were the cause of a massive military build-up. We had to know what they were doing behind the Iron Curtain.

Edwest4, the USA and UK may continue to declassify documents that are of interest to authors of new books, but I think the window for Russia to do so closed some time ago. Those who were around then will recall that immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Empire and the crushing Desert Storm victory to liberate Kuwait, there were a few brief years of openness and goodwill in Russia, before a backlash of resentments set in there. The early 1990's was the time when American journalists were free to traipse across Russia looking inside prisons for USAF MIAs; when Bill Gunston was researching and writing his Putnam Aviation books on Tupolev, MiG, and Yakovlev aircraft with the enthusiastic collaboration of those three design bureaus; when MiG's chief designer Rostislav Belyakov published his own detailed book in French and English; when books on the secret Venona counterintelligence project, cross-referenced with cooperative KGB records, began to be written (although Venona had earlier been broached in Peter Wright's bestselling memoir Spycatcher, which I read on a plane-ride back from college while that book was banned and D-noticed in England); when ex-CIA and ex-KGB authors were preparing their joint book Battleground Berlin: CIA vs. KGB in the Cold War, again with access to cooperative KGB records; and the time when the Mitrokhin Archive was spirited out of Russia (although the latter only became public knowledge in two Christopher Andrew books some years later). Nothing like the above has been practical for a while now. In the 21st Century, Russians have publicly blamed American plots for the Chernobyl meltdown, for the submarine Kursk disaster, for their failed launch of the Fobos-Grunt space probe, for their killing via polonium-210 of Alexander Litvinenko in London, for the meteor fall over Chelyabinsk, for their own surprise invasion of Ukraine, etc., etc. Every dead car battery in Russia is the fault of the United States. Openness there to helping English-speaking authors is gone, till the indefinite future.

 

[Calum Douglas]

Something I`ve found very problematic since writing a few books, is that I just CANT read books anymore.

Not that I`m comparing myself to anyone in any real sense, but I remember seeing an interview
with at least one snooker player who was asked if they watch snooker matches, and they
said they couldnt stand them and once they`d done their match they wanted to forget
about the entire sport!

I do feel its very hard to just enjoy reading as a "hobby" now as all I see if I pick up someone else`s books
is stuff like "hmmm were are the references" or "this statement seems like a total guess, where did they
get THIS from?"

I`m not implying I think everyone else`s books are bad, just that I cant get my mind into
the zone of enjoying reading for fun which I often had before writing my own.

Not sure if anyone else here recognises that in themselves too ?

Sadly this means I find it really hard to evaluate the "current crop" of books as I just cant read them.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

30 years ago, I remember going to the USAF Museum at Wright-Pat and being stunned by the size and scope of the bookstore within the gift shop. All before EPay, Amazon, etc. and titles I would never see at Borders (long gone) or Barnes & Noble. Go there today, it is a gift shop with an occasional book here and there. When our Museum was open and had a gift shop, it was always a challenge to decide what books to stock - a lot of $$$ there that may or may not move off the shelf and out the door with visitors. I suppose much the same for them, though on a grander scale, and the beginnings of EPay and Amazon as well having its impact on sales.

I pretty much filled out my World Airpower Journal set and the shortlived Airliner version by hitting the $5 table at any Borders I came across. Nowadays, I peruse Half Price Books when I travel and occasionally find a gem or two to buy. The Dallas-Ft. Worth area has so any Half Price Book outlets, including the main store, that any trip to DFW includes visits to any store near my travels. We now have three stores in St. Louis so it is a bit easier to drop in once in a while and take a look. There are a couple of local used book stores to visit as well and one I have enough of a relationship they'll give me a shout if the get an aviation/military rich collection in.

A short story - had scanned a buttload of Army Aviation slides and negs in a collection we received and not being my normal subject, had all my Army Aviation books out for reference. My son, who was about 10-11 at the time, came walking in and asked me what I was doing so I showed him how I was looking up the aircraft type and designation and labeling each scan. He of course says "just look it up on the internet"! Yes, the internet generation is fully among us.... He will read digital but not a book. I am of course the complete opposite.

For those of you in the publishing business - Seems to me that there are a percentage of books in stores that end up damaged such that they won't sell, at least at the retail price. What happens to them - does the seller eat the loss, or put it on the sale table, or does it go back to the publisher/clearing house? As I recall, unsold magazines had their covers cut off and sent back to be credited but don't know what the process is for books.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[CJGibson]

Something I`ve found very problematic since writing a few books, is that I just CANT read books anymore.

Tanks, ancient warfare and fiction.

With tanks you probably know just enough to have an opinion, ancient warfare is just mad, especially when the elephants get involved, and fiction is just that.

Have another go.

Chris

 

[edwest4]

Something I`ve found very problematic since writing a few books, is that I just CANT read books anymore.

Not that I`m comparing myself to anyone in any real sense, but I remember seeing an interview
with at least one snooker player who was asked if they watch snooker matches, and they
said they couldnt stand them and once they`d done their match they wanted to forget
about the entire sport!

I do feel its very hard to just enjoy reading as a "hobby" now as all I see if I pick up someone else`s books
is stuff like "hmmm were are the references" or "this statement seems like a total guess, where did they
get THIS from?"

I`m not implying I think everyone else`s books are bad, just that I cant get my mind into
the zone of enjoying reading for fun which I often had before writing my own.

Not sure if anyone else here recognises that in themselves too ?

Sadly this means I find it really hard to evaluate the "current crop" of books as I just cant read them.

Calum,

I've been in book publishing for decades. I know how proper research is done. The questions you pose are the same ones I ask myself whenever I read a new history book. Where are the primary document references? And yes, I've also asked myself: Where did the author get THAT from? I paid $100.00 for a book about a particular German weapon used during the war. The technical details were stellar. The photos went above and beyond what I expected. But the book was marred by the author's personal bias toward the Germans. Any competent editor would have removed such off-topic commentary yet there it was.

The primary problem is too many amateurs have entered the field. People who disregard established practices to add their own personal bias toward any subject. They think all they want is a guarantee of publication and they're done. When writing about history, it requires accuracy and a willingness to do the work to ensure that accuracy. Assumptions are not allowed. Or if an assumption is made it needs to be labeled as such and the author has to offer some evidence to support it. Opinions are also not allowed.

I am about to buy a book about another wartime subject. I was able to review some preview pages. The author makes a strange comment about what he's written but I can disregard that since he offers the information I am looking for. And I plan on buying many more books.

 

[edwest4]

30 years ago, I remember going to the USAF Museum at Wright-Pat and being stunned by the size and scope of the bookstore within the gift shop. All before EPay, Amazon, etc. and titles I would never see at Borders (long gone) or Barnes & Noble. Go there today, it is a gift shop with an occasional book here and there. When our Museum was open and had a gift shop, it was always a challenge to decide what books to stock - a lot of $$$ there that may or may not move off the shelf and out the door with visitors. I suppose much the same for them, though on a grander scale, and the beginnings of EPay and Amazon as well having its impact on sales.

I pretty much filled out my World Airpower Journal set and the shortlived Airliner version by hitting the $5 table at any Borders I came across. Nowadays, I peruse Half Price Books when I travel and occasionally find a gem or two to buy. The Dallas-Ft. Worth area has so any Half Price Book outlets, including the main store, that any trip to DFW includes visits to any store near my travels. We now have three stores in St. Louis so it is a bit easier to drop in once in a while and take a look. There are a couple of local used book stores to visit as well and one I have enough of a relationship they'll give me a shout if the get an aviation/military rich collection in.

A short story - had scanned a buttload of Army Aviation slides and negs in a collection we received and not being my normal subject, had all my Army Aviation books out for reference. My son, who was about 10-11 at the time, came walking in and asked me what I was doing so I showed him how I was looking up the aircraft type and designation and labeling each scan. He of course says "just look it up on the internet"! Yes, the internet generation is fully among us.... He will read digital but not a book. I am of course the complete opposite.

For those of you in the publishing business - Seems to me that there are a percentage of books in stores that end up damaged such that they won't sell, at least at the retail price. What happens to them - does the seller eat the loss, or put it on the sale table, or does it go back to the publisher/clearing house? As I recall, unsold magazines had their covers cut off and sent back to be credited but don't know what the process is for books.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

The internet has not improved things. Quite the opposite. I've been in book publishing for decades. The same standards that existed at the start still exist and are required going forward. A truckload of amateurs have entered the history field, and fiction. I recall reading a comment from a new author about his just published book: "Why isn't my book selling?" The preview pages told me, as an editor, why it can't sell. He had just about every beginner mistake in those sample pages as beginning writers make, year after year after year.

Nothing has changed. Nothing.

I went to Borders and other bookstores. People know quality when they see it. Referring to history books, those that are recognized climb out of reach in terms of price on the so-called secondary market. That demand rarely diminishes. Those are the books that are still talked about. Those are the books that get into collections and are referred to time and time again.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Something I`ve found very problematic since writing a few books, is that I just CANT read books anymore.

Not that I`m comparing myself to anyone in any real sense, but I remember seeing an interview
with at least one snooker player who was asked if they watch snooker matches, and they
said they couldnt stand them and once they`d done their match they wanted to forget
about the entire sport!

I do feel its very hard to just enjoy reading as a "hobby" now as all I see if I pick up someone else`s books
is stuff like "hmmm were are the references" or "this statement seems like a total guess, where did they
get THIS from?"

I`m not implying I think everyone else`s books are bad, just that I cant get my mind into
the zone of enjoying reading for fun which I often had before writing my own.

Not sure if anyone else here recognises that in themselves too ?

Sadly this means I find it really hard to evaluate the "current crop" of books as I just cant read them.

I too suffer from this problem. When you've read a lot of flight test reports, for example, you get used to seeing the pilot record the aircraft type and designation, the take-off time, the landing time, take-off weight, fuel load, centre of gravity position, purpose of test and result. It's methodical without romance or colour - just part of the process, even for the first flight.

Then you read an account that describes the pilot striding to the aircraft, the splutter and roar of the engine, the magnificent moment when the wheels leave the ground, the touchdown, the company chief designer racing to shake the pilot's hand... you can immediately tell that this author has not seen the flight test report. They have, perhaps, never seen any test reports for this particular type. How can you then carry on reading the rest of what they have to say?

Another bugbear of mine is highly respected academic authors who cite all their sources... but include numerous sources that are questionable old books which do not, in turn, cite their sources. Then you see newer historians citing that academic author as a source. When you've seen the primary sources, and know that the questionable old book in question is wrong, and that the author of said book habitually filled in the blanks in their narrative with guesswork (authors of the past seem to have been utterly incapable of saying 'this is unknown' or 'there is no available evidence to confirm this either way' etc. They always had all the answers to everything, even if, behind the scenes they really didn't) you lose all trust in the said academic historians.

Tanks - I've seen enough on tanks to know that these things are a problem in that world too. Ancient warfare - given the state of modern history, you have to wonder just how much of what's written about it bears any resemblance to what actually took place. Fiction - fewer problems but I don't have much time for it.

 

[CJGibson]

A truckload of amateurs have entered the history field, and fiction.

I'll get me coat...

 

[Justo Miranda]

Something I`ve found very problematic since writing a few books, is that I just CANT read books anymore.

Not that I`m comparing myself to anyone in any real sense, but I remember seeing an interview
with at least one snooker player who was asked if they watch snooker matches, and they
said they couldnt stand them and once they`d done their match they wanted to forget
about the entire sport!

I do feel its very hard to just enjoy reading as a "hobby" now as all I see if I pick up someone else`s books
is stuff like "hmmm were are the references" or "this statement seems like a total guess, where did they
get THIS from?"

I`m not implying I think everyone else`s books are bad, just that I cant get my mind into
the zone of enjoying reading for fun which I often had before writing my own.

Not sure if anyone else here recognises that in themselves too ?

Sadly this means I find it really hard to evaluate the "current crop" of books as I just cant read them.

You are not alone in this, all the authors I know, experts in any human activity, feel the same. But we must keep going because we have a responsibility to publish as much as we can before that knowledge is lost. Perhaps a good way to escape this frustration is to read about other topics that are further away from our specialty. One of my most rewarding hobbies is reading about UFOs, Extraterrestrials, Spirits, Parallel Universes and respectable books of scientific popularization. Possibly its content is as full of errors, inaccuracies and chronological inconsistencies as the ones I write, but I don't care, and they serve to rest my mind. Sorry for the vulgarity of this example: no butcher eats sausages, but most eat fish.

 

[Justo Miranda]

30 years ago, I remember going to the USAF Museum at Wright-Pat and being stunned by the size and scope of the bookstore within the gift shop. All before EPay, Amazon, etc. and titles I would never see at Borders (long gone) or Barnes & Noble. Go there today, it is a gift shop with an occasional book here and there. When our Museum was open and had a gift shop, it was always a challenge to decide what books to stock - a lot of $$$ there that may or may not move off the shelf and out the door with visitors. I suppose much the same for them, though on a grander scale, and the beginnings of EPay and Amazon as well having its impact on sales.

I pretty much filled out my World Airpower Journal set and the shortlived Airliner version by hitting the $5 table at any Borders I came across. Nowadays, I peruse Half Price Books when I travel and occasionally find a gem or two to buy. The Dallas-Ft. Worth area has so any Half Price Book outlets, including the main store, that any trip to DFW includes visits to any store near my travels. We now have three stores in St. Louis so it is a bit easier to drop in once in a while and take a look. There are a couple of local used book stores to visit as well and one I have enough of a relationship they'll give me a shout if the get an aviation/military rich collection in.

A short story - had scanned a buttload of Army Aviation slides and negs in a collection we received and not being my normal subject, had all my Army Aviation books out for reference. My son, who was about 10-11 at the time, came walking in and asked me what I was doing so I showed him how I was looking up the aircraft type and designation and labeling each scan. He of course says "just look it up on the internet"! Yes, the internet generation is fully among us.... He will read digital but not a book. I am of course the complete opposite.

For those of you in the publishing business - Seems to me that there are a percentage of books in stores that end up damaged such that they won't sell, at least at the retail price. What happens to them - does the seller eat the loss, or put it on the sale table, or does it go back to the publisher/clearing house? As I recall, unsold magazines had their covers cut off and sent back to be credited but don't know what the process is for books.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

I also belong to the paper era, despite spending many hours scanning my files I have only managed to digitize forty percent of them, doing the same with books is an impossible task.

Regarding your question about the destination of deteriorated books, in my circles it is said that some publishers obtain tax discounts by exporting them to other countries as if they were new books under cultural cooperation agreements, some of these export agreements include discarded telephone directories. I have also heard rumors that some of these cultural shipments often end up in paper industries established in countries without environmental legislation.

On the opposite side of the scale of values I must say that throughout my life I have bought all the used books I could and that I even attended a tutorial on restoring old paper, for me it is satisfying to bring them back to life.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The internet has not improved things. Quite the opposite. I've been in book publishing for decades. The same standards that existed at the start still exist and are required going forward. A truckload of amateurs have entered the history field, and fiction. I recall reading a comment from a new author about his just published book: "Why isn't my book selling?" The preview pages told me, as an editor, why it can't sell. He had just about every beginner mistake in those sample pages as beginning writers make, year after year after year.

Nothing has changed. Nothing.

I went to Borders and other bookstores. People know quality when they see it. Referring to history books, those that are recognized climb out of reach in terms of price on the so-called secondary market. That demand rarely diminishes. Those are the books that are still talked about. Those are the books that get into collections and are referred to time and time again.

Nothing has changed. Nothing.

Something has changed, for the worse.

In the golden age of paper, editorial rejections were usually accompanied by a note from the publisher explaining the reasons (true or false, but always pious) why the book could not be published. Some veteran writers have told me that it was not uncommon for the editor's response to be extended by commenting on some of the shortcomings of the text and including valuable advice on improving the style.

These publishers knew the value of planting, they took care of the new generations of writers, they took care of their business and at the same time they carried out great social work.

What do we have now?

Administrative silence and a lot of disheartening derogatory criticism for someone who starts out with great illusions.

Who is on the other side of the internet?

Hal?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Calum,

I've been in book publishing for decades. I know how proper research is done. The questions you pose are the same ones I ask myself whenever I read a new history book. Where are the primary document references? And yes, I've also asked myself: Where did the author get THAT from? I paid $100.00 for a book about a particular German weapon used during the war. The technical details were stellar. The photos went above and beyond what I expected. But the book was marred by the author's personal bias toward the Germans. Any competent editor would have removed such off-topic commentary yet there it was.

The primary problem is too many amateurs have entered the field. People who disregard established practices to add their own personal bias toward any subject. They think all they want is a guarantee of publication and they're done. When writing about history, it requires accuracy and a willingness to do the work to ensure that accuracy. Assumptions are not allowed. Or if an assumption is made it needs to be labeled as such and the author has to offer some evidence to support it. Opinions are also not allowed.

I am about to buy a book about another wartime subject. I was able to review some preview pages. The author makes a strange comment about what he's written but I can disregard that since he offers the information I am looking for. And I plan on buying many more books.

That coin also has the other side, that of the buyer.

What about prejudice?

How many good books don't sell because the buyer considers the author in the photo to be too young, or too old, or teaches at a university with a bad reputation, or is a woman, or belongs to a certain ethnicity that the reader considers intellectually inferior, or has a Latin, or French, or Chinese name that the buyer doesn't like?

We are all guilty, we have all done it, it is part of the human condition.

Many years ago, in the French magazine Le Fanatique de l'Aviation, an article was published in the April issue about an aviation enthusiast from a small African country who had built an airplane based only on his intuition and had flown with it.

It is a tradition that in the month of April magazines include a false story as a traditional joke. At that time both my friend Patrick Laureau (of socialist inclination) and I decided that the African was the joke, but it was not like that, the story was true.

I have not forgotten that lesson.

Remember Pyewacket?

 

[CJGibson]

Nothing has changed. Nothing.

Something has changed, for the worse.

In the golden age of paper, editorial rejections were usually accompanied by a note from the publisher explaining the reasons (true or false, but always pious) why the book could not be published. Some veteran writers have told me that it was not uncommon for the editor's response to be extended by commenting on some of the shortcomings of the text and including valuable advice on improving the style.

These publishers knew the value of planting, they took care of the new generations of writers, they took care of their business and at the same time they carried out great social work.

What do we have now?

Administrative silence and a lot of disheartening derogatory criticism for someone who starts out with great illusions.

Who is on the other side of the internet?

Hal?

I learned loads from the rejections and I was lucky enough to be face-to-face with some of the commissioning editors, who provided (and still provide) great advice and encouragement. The final result, after about 12 years, was BSP4.

Never give up. Listen to advice.

Chris

 

[Hood]

Ancient warfare - given the state of modern history, you have to wonder just how much of what's written about it bears any resemblance to what actually took place.

I remember as an undergrad, one of my lecturers quipped that every historian dealing with medieval history and earlier periods were just making it up as they go along.

There is no doubt that the surviving textual sources are hazy at best and archology can only fill so many gaps.

now as all I see if I pick up someone else`s books
is stuff like "hmmm were are the references" or "this statement seems like a total guess, where did they
get THIS from?"

I still enjoy reading despite doing all of that. But then I do enjoy rummaging through the endnotes and pinpointing just what sources they are using.

Another bugbear of mine is highly respected academic authors who cite all their sources... but include numerous sources that are questionable old books which do not, in turn, cite their sources. Then you see newer historians citing that academic author as a source. When you've seen the primary sources, and know that the questionable old book in question is wrong, and that the author of said book habitually filled in the blanks in their narrative with guesswork (authors of the past seem to have been utterly incapable of saying 'this is unknown' or 'there is no available evidence to confirm this either way' etc. They always had all the answers to everything, even if, behind the scenes they really didn't) you lose all trust in the said academic historians.

True, but if you discount all secondary sources written pre-2010 for example, then you're basically writing off all previous history as sloppy. Some authors/researchers were sloppy. Some academics are sloppy.

You must remember that footnotes and endnotes are a political game in academic history. You quote your allies and disparage your enemies (their simple omission can be worse than stabbing them in the heart with a blunt screwdriver). Entire academic battles and controversies have been fought in footnotes.

I'm always sceptical of professional academic historians who list 100 pages of primary and secondary sources. Those who don't mention their PhD students in the acknowledgements are probably being dishonest. Most of the time its them who have traipsed around numerous archives to get what the Prof wants (they've probably written most of the text too). And there is no way the 250+ secondary sources have been read, even as sample snippets.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Tanks, ancient warfare and fiction.

True, but if you discount all secondary sources written pre-2010 for example, then you're basically writing off all previous history as sloppy. Some authors/researchers were sloppy. Some academics are sloppy.

You must remember that footnotes and endnotes are a political game in academic history. You quote your allies and disparage your enemies (their simple omission can be worse than stabbing them in the heart with a blunt screwdriver). Entire academic battles and controversies have been fought in footnotes.

I'm always sceptical of professional academic historians who list 100 pages of primary and secondary sources. Those who don't mention their PhD students in the acknowledgements are probably being dishonest. Most of the time its them who have traipsed around numerous archives to get what the Prof wants (they've probably written most of the text too). And there is no way the 250+ secondary sources have been read, even as sample snippets.

Secondary sources that list actual primary sources, with archival references, are useful as a way of identifying documents I might want to take a look at. The actual text written by the historian in question can usually be disgarded.

A good example is Daniel Uziel's Arming the Luftwaffe. It's generally held up as the gold standard of historical research on this topic and here's what it has to say about the Arado E-395:
"After finishing their work on the Ar 234 [Kosin and Lehmann] suggested a heavier four-engine version of this aircraft. This design soon received the internal project number E395, and on 16 January 1944 the RLM gave the project a go-ahead under the impressive priority level National Aufgabe (National Task)". No reference for this is given.
In fact, the E-395 was Arado's submission to a requirement for a four-engine jet bomber issued on July 30, 1943, and was a competitor for the Ju 287, He 343 and BV P 188. Some pages of the E-395 report are dated February 10, 1944 - so it couldn't have been issued before then. And it wasn't given the go-ahead by the RLM - the Ju 287 and He 343 were, with the He 343 eventually being dropped in favour of the Ju 287 alone.
Uziel goes on:
"Colonel Siegfried Knemeyer, the influential head of the Aircraft Development Department in the Technical Office, in fact asked Heinkel and Junkers in January 1944 to develop a four-engine jet bomber in accord with Hitler's order to concentrate all efforts on jet planes." No reference for this is given.
As mentioned, the Ju 287 and and He 343 were both (under the EF 122 and P 1068 designations respectively) submissions against the July 30, 1943, requirement. Knemeyer didn't just randomly ask those companies to work up designs in January 1944. And did Hitler order that all efforts be concentrated on jet planes? Actually no. He didn't. In fact, when the Do 335 was set to be cancelled in 1945, he personally stepped in to rescue it. This, along with my other assertions above, are backed up by primary sources.
I have seen other historians, trusting Uziel, repeating this rubbish. And his book, despite literally thousands of references and listed sources, is full of this sort of thing. Half-understood material laced with guesswork.

I don't know about other fields, but where our subject of interest is concerned - the 'secret projects' generated as part of aircraft development programmes - no academic historian has yet made any worthwhile contribution as far as I can tell.* Please correct me if I'm wrong.

*Except for Prof. Keith Hayward!

 

[CJGibson]

If you consider the 'Fourth Dimension' of aircraft development, I can point to Prof Keith Hayward and his examinations of the politics of British aircraft development.

Oh, and speaking as an amateur, it irks me to pay 30 quid for a book and find that the last 30% is notes and references. Nowadays these can go online.

Chris

 

[Justo Miranda]

I remember as an undergrad, one of my lecturers quipped that every historian dealing with medieval history and earlier periods were just making it up as they go along.

There is no doubt that the surviving textual sources are hazy at best and archology can only fill so many gaps.


I still enjoy reading despite doing all of that. But then I do enjoy rummaging through the endnotes and pinpointing just what sources they are using.


True, but if you discount all secondary sources written pre-2010 for example, then you're basically writing off all previous history as sloppy. Some authors/researchers were sloppy. Some academics are sloppy.

You must remember that footnotes and endnotes are a political game in academic history. You quote your allies and disparage your enemies (their simple omission can be worse than stabbing them in the heart with a blunt screwdriver). Entire academic battles and controversies have been fought in footnotes.

I'm always sceptical of professional academic historians who list 100 pages of primary and secondary sources. Those who don't mention their PhD students in the acknowledgements are probably being dishonest. Most of the time its them who have traipsed around numerous archives to get what the Prof wants (they've probably written most of the text too). And there is no way the 250+ secondary sources have been read, even as sample snippets.

“I remember as an undergrad, one of my lecturers quipped that every historian dealing with medieval history and earlier periods were just making it up as they go along.

There is no doubt that the surviving textual sources are hazy at best and archology can only fill so many gaps.”

In my opinion, the original sources, however confusing they may be, have the incalculable value of informing us that something important happened at a certain time in a certain place.

We don't need more to put our powerful investigative tools to work.

Analysis of the trees found by archaeologists buried five meters deep on the island of Axholme in a Tunguska-like arrangement could indicate why Roman civilization was wiped out of Midland/East Anglia in the fifth century AD.

Thanks to Gildas' vague writings we know that there was a king named Vortigern of whose fortified city no trace has been found... Tunguska?

Giordano Bruno (crater) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Hidden Isle: History of the Isle of Axholme before 1066 – The Historians Magazine

thehistoriansmagazine.com

 

[newsdeskdan]

If you consider the 'Fourth Dimension' of aircraft development, I can point to Prof Keith Hayward and his examinations of the politics of British aircraft development.

Oh, and speaking as an amateur, it irks me to pay 30 quid for a book and find that the last 30% is notes and references. Nowadays these can go online.

Chris

You've got me there - Prof Keith Hayward has indeed made some valuable contributions and does appear to understand the politics of aircraft development. Can you sign him up for a Project Tech on Blue Envoy?

30% is a lot for notes and references. However, including the notes and refencences demonstrates to the reader that what they're getting is based on real evidence. So many books on German WW2 aircraft development are entirely devoid of references and when one book contradicts another - as they frequently do - you're left unable to trust either of them.

 

[CJGibson]

You've got me there - Prof Keith Hayward has indeed made some valuable contributions and does appear to understand the politics of aircraft development. Can you sign him up for a Project Tech on Blue Envoy?

30% is a lot for notes and references. However, including the notes and refencences demonstrates to the reader that what they're getting is based on real evidence. So many books on German WW2 aircraft development are entirely devoid of references and when one book contradicts another - as they frequently do - you're left unable to trust either of them.

See item #47

Chris

 

[Hood]

I have seen other historians, trusting Uziel, repeating this rubbish. And his book, despite literally thousands of references and listed sources, is full of this sort of thing. Half-understood material laced with guesswork.

That does seem unsettling.
I'm curious as to whether German-language academic books on the subject are more reliable? On the assumption that Germany-based historians have easier access to the sources.

The other vital point about sources of course is interpretation. Six people could look at one document and come up with a different interpretation about what it is telling them.
From what you are saying though, Uziel's errors on dates and chronology seem to hint an underlying problem with the research and understanding what he has found.

 

[newsdeskdan]

That does seem unsettling.
I'm curious as to whether German-language academic books on the subject are more reliable? On the assumption that Germany-based historians have easier access to the sources.

The other vital point about sources of course is interpretation. Six people could look at one document and come up with a different interpretation about what it is telling them.
From what you are saying though, Uziel's errors on dates and chronology seem to hint an underlying problem with the research and understanding what he has found.

I think maybe German 'secret projects' - and aircraft development generally - has such a bad rep, as a result of all the misunderstandings and misinformation generated over the last 80 years or so, that historians are happy to dismiss it all as 'flights of fantasy' (Uziel uses those exact words), particularly if it didn't lead to an actual in-service aircraft.

Your other point on academics also comes into play here - I believe Uziel wrote his book as a vehicle for thoughts on the use of slave labour and other atrocities committed by the Nazis. Naturally, the German WW2 aircraft industry was a heavy user of slave labour and so Uziel encountered a lot of 'secret projects' during his work.

As such, he makes no real effort to understand aircraft development and leans much more towards production. Which is fine. But the problems begin when others start using him as a point of reference for aircraft development i.e. 'secret projects'.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I'm curious as to whether German-language academic books on the subject are more reliable? On the assumption that Germany-based historians have easier access to the sources.

Again, from what I've seen German-language academic books aren't interested in aircraft designs which never entered service and therefore make no real effort to 'get it right'. Writers such as Horst Boog are good when it comes to operational history (while pushing his own specific views on things like the Allied bombing campaign) but not where aircraft development is concerned.

Having said all of that, if there ever had been an academic writer on German aircraft development/projects who got it completely right, and cited all their sources, I would never have been able to make my own discoveries on the topic and write my own books on the processes that resulted in so many seemingly strange designs as well as the aircraft which actually flew.

 

[aim9xray]

Oh, and speaking as an amateur, it irks me to pay 30 quid for a book and find that the last 30% is notes and references. Nowadays these can go online.

Oh, my number one personal irk is an excessively precious, overdesigned book with gobs of whitespace where additional content could be bringing me information for my money. (If I want whitespace, I can buy it by the ream at the local office supply store.)

As a reader, I see foot/endnotes as the breadcrumbs leading me through the forest of ignorance. However, sometimes footies are eschewed by the publisher for reasons of format and sizing...

 

[Hood]

As such, he makes no real effort to understand aircraft development and leans much more towards production. Which is fine. But the problems begin when others start using him as a point of reference for aircraft development i.e. 'secret projects'.

Yes it sounds like he is a 'non-technical' historian in that respect, although he was a visiting research fellow at the US National Air and Space Museum, so I'd like to think he is technically minded - but then, as you say, projects stuff is niche for most aviation historians anyway, and if its unbuilt I guess it is of less interest.

And given the sheer volume of German projects on top of the hyped-up "Wunderwaffe" and it's not surprising they are not taken very seriously. Perhaps we should be thankful that none of these projects got to the stage of planning in terms of how many slave labourers toiling in a salt mine would be needed to build 1,000 Horten XVIIIs...

 

[newsdeskdan]

Yes it sounds like he is a 'non-technical' historian in that respect, although he was a visiting research fellow at the US National Air and Space Museum, so I'd like to think he is technically minded - but then, as you say, projects stuff is niche for most aviation historians anyway, and if its unbuilt I guess it is of less interest.

And given the sheer volume of German projects on top of the hyped-up "Wunderwaffe" and it's not surprising they are not taken very seriously. Perhaps we should be thankful that none of these projects got to the stage of planning in terms of how many slave labourers toiling in a salt mine would be needed to build 1,000 Horten XVIIIs...

It's not necessarily even a technical issue. Germany had a similar procurement process to that of Britain: specification, requirement, submissions from industry, assessment of submissions, awarding of contracts, construction of prototypes, testing etc.

Being incredibly bureaucratic, Germany followed this process in the vast majority of cases (there appear to have been a handful of exceptions - but there was nearly always some sort of competition for every requirement) - even when it didn't necessarily make much sense to do so. With that in mind, looking at the E-395, Ju 287 and He 343 (Uziel doesn't mention the P 188), you would immediately ask yourself: what was the requirement and when was it issued? But this doesn't seem to occur to him. As such, he appears to fundamentally fail to grasp the whole subject of aircraft development in WW2 Germany.

Also, it's not really the case that Germany had any more projects than, say, Britain or America. If you had gone around every British aircraft manufacturer in 1945 and confiscated all their project files, put them all in big heap, removed the dates, and then listed them all in alphabetical order, you would end up with an incredible mish-mash of 'crazy' out-of-context British 'secret projects'. But what actually happened, as you know, is that British and American project files remained secret for many years - with plenty being destroyed as companies were merged/taken over.

Not so much the Horten XVIII, but unfortunately plenty of projects did get to the stage of planning in terms of how many slave labourers toiling in a salt mine would be needed: Me 262, Do 335, He 162 etc. Grim stuff, frankly.

 

[Elan Vital]

I am young and I have relied more on deliveries for specialized books than bookstores so I am probably biased.

I have discovered specialized books mostly with recent entries from Phil Knight on British tanks, Secret Projects titles and entries from Military History's self-publisher (the one that published the books from Peter Samsonov, Military History Visualized and Military Aviation History). Pretty much all of them feature detailed footnotes and references (including those for primary sources such as War Office files in the case of Phil Knight) and appear to be more rigorous regarding assumptions vs primary data.

As far as older titles go, I will obviously ignore the more basic ones I've seen. I recall a book on the Etendard family full of references and actual plans which was nice. Books and articles about my area of research (French interwar/WW2 ground equipment) have been more hit and miss. Some do indicate the exact references of primary documents, but many haven't. There are a few instances where I found archives that were most likely the sources as they were sometimes cited verbatim. More rarely I found something which disproved a claim inside one of these books. I dig the archives for the primary sources anyway now, but exact references would at least allow me to find the archives which would be otherwise nearly impossible to find using the search engines.

Going by my limited experience, it rather seems like we are getting a lot of (Secret) Projects relevant titles of good quality nowadays and they are certainly much easier to get than they could be in the past. And with online search engines/databases, archive digging feels easier than it may have been in the past when you pretty much had to skim through physical inventories to even know the subjects of what was archived.

 

[edwest4]

Whoa, whoa, there. Academic historians have made valuable contributions but their work does not show up after a Google search that lasts under 0.5 seconds. Take War Prizes by Phil Butler. He points out that a lot of unproductive cards had to be gone through in order to locate those of interest. Too many amateur Master's theses show up online that are written by people with little to no writing ability or experience. After appropriately thanking those who helped and encouraged them, the reader has to slog through a usually lame introductory section, followed by a "this is what I found" section, followed by a "here's the meat of the story" section. One wonders how many go on to be historians, as in, doing more research for a particular goal. So, although amply footnoted, there is little new material. Little original research. It is obvious to anyone with some experience that they are only getting their feet wet and would drown in deep water.

The British-centric nature of this site makes Britain the standard to which all others are compared. How many times have I seen comments about German decisions with replies that boiled down to: "If only the Germans had done what the British would have done then they would have had a chance." I recall reading about how the British military had set up an office during the war where civilians could offer suggestions for new weapons. After a relatively short time, the officer in charge contacted his superiors to point out that out of 100 suggestions, perhaps one was worth pursuing. He recommended that his office be shut down since it was a waste of time and resources. The Horten brothers presented their jet aircraft ideas ideas to the RLM out of a sense of duty to their country. These were unsolicited. (See Nurflügel by Reimar Horten and Peter F. Selinger.)

I am also a little surprised that some take wartime photos of aircraft in salt mines as the whole story. And many other "official" stories published shortly after the war as the whole story. As if documents marked Secret and Top Secret at the time exist in a separate universe. Document declassification has been going on for a long time in the United States. In fact, I've seen more declassified documents published in German language books than American. Shortly after the war, German historians and institutions petitioned the Americans for a release of documents held by them. In 1995, President Clinton made document declassification a priority. The problem with the Freedom of Information Act was getting the document name right. And being persistent. Otherwise, getting a "We have found no documents that are responsive to your request." response was likely. I know of researchers who have hired professionals to go to the National Archives to look for what they want or who have gone themselves.

Aside from salt mines, purpose built underground bunkers that were bomb-proof were constructed. Only exterior photos showing the entrances, with camouflage removed, have been published. A description of the interior of one such installation was published in the book Lucky Forward by Colonel Robert S. Allen, a member of General Patton's staff (published in 1947). And of those documents released, some have the unusual "Impersonal Files" identifier or "Security Classified Information" or "Document Control" number. Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio got a lot of captured documents. Some were translated, some were not. These were available to American aircraft builders but the request had to be on company letterhead. Some material was regarded as too sensitive. Wright Field has no book describing a massive post-war operation. The Wright Air Development Center and Air Materiel Command were working on things in-house that have only recently come to light. Ejection seat research and development occurred in Germany. Ejection seats were used.

After the RAF raid on Peenemünde in 1943, SS General Hans Kammler was given the task of building underground bunkers. The SS was in charge of slave labor. (See The Hidden Nazi: The Untold Story of America's Deal with the Devil by Dean Reuter et al.)

​

 

[Pasoleati]

If you consider the 'Fourth Dimension' of aircraft development, I can point to Prof Keith Hayward and his examinations of the politics of British aircraft development.

Oh, and speaking as an amateur, it irks me to pay 30 quid for a book and find that the last 30% is notes and references. Nowadays these can go online.

Chris

No they can't. Any publisher/author putting notes online should be dealt with the Petrograd NKVD paper method.

 

[Arjen]

I rather like the idea of weblinks to complete documents. Saves me the trouble of doing a websearch.

 

[martinbayer]

I rather like the idea of weblinks to complete documents. Saves me the trouble of doing a websearch.

Links are fine, but reference titles and other bibliographical information should still be explicitly listed in text form in the book itself. This also serves as a backup in case online links go bad or dead.

 

[edwest4]

Links are fine, but reference titles and other bibliographical information should still be explicitly listed in text form in the book itself. This also serves as a backup in case online links go bad or dead.

Exactly right. I've seen two online sites go dead. They are only available as archives now. I can still log into one. The information is not sorted well and requires time to dig through to get what you're looking for. Internet sites are not forever. I have warned the moderators of a third site that unless they do a backup before going down forever, over two decades of research will be gone.

Printed books are always the better choice.

 

[Elan Vital]

I understand that feeling. I recently made the mistake of deleting my saved internet connection data, such that I lost access to one of my e-mail adresses used for the 2nd part Vincennes photo album. Luckily, I still have access to that album as I shared it to another adress and I have the original pictures to upload again if it ever goes down.

I do agree that in spite of their size, references data should still be available in physical form in the book.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

I have never heard of a book specialized in Maltese aviation, it would be a very interesting topic because in my archives I have only been able to find references to the blue Spitfires painted on aircraft carriers, to the American Spitfires based in Gozo and to the Reggiane 2001’s.

There are books, but they are mostly local to Malta or are personal accounts of the War. I'm certain that there are accounts of the Siege of Malta in the wider press, but I'm not sure whether they are in print, as it's quite a niche subject if you think about it. It's quite odd, Second World War Malta seems to have some legend about it in the same way the Battle of Britain, El Alamein or the Sinking of the Bismarck have, but there is comparatively little research or awareness about it, despite it being a lot more drawn out than these events, despite the vast majority of documents relating to it being in the UK. The latter point is what makes it so difficult for me to research, because the primary sources I need are not local to me.