USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

Alright everyone, nailed down another "6th gen fighter" related patent from boeing.

Here's the link:

US20180237121A1 - Undercarriage-mounted airfoil - Google Patents

An aircraft nose gear-mounted flight control device promotes aircraft stability during low-speed phases of flight, including take-offs and landings. The flight control device is an operable airfoil secured to an aircraft nose gear, either to a vertical support strut or to a wheel axle thereof...
patents.google.com

Wild stuff there.
 
FlyGuy369 said:
Alright everyone, nailed down another "6th gen fighter" related patent from boeing.

Here's the link:

US20180237121A1 - Undercarriage-mounted airfoil - Google Patents

An aircraft nose gear-mounted flight control device promotes aircraft stability during low-speed phases of flight, including take-offs and landings. The flight control device is an operable airfoil secured to an aircraft nose gear, either to a vertical support strut or to a wheel axle thereof...
patents.google.com

Wild stuff there.
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As a wise man once said, Fascinating.
 
windcalm said:
Assuming a 22.5° 2D wedge, the 40.8° oblique shock wave corresponds to about Mach 3. For a 3D cone, the Mach number is around 2.
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So a mission profile to remember from the Northrop grumman patent was a cruising altitude of FL600 with supercruise at M2.2 with periodic reductions down to M0.8. I suppose that profile may fit into that regime, but I have to wonder if the artwork is solely artistic, maybe even symbolic.
 
windcalm said:
Assuming a 22.5° 2D wedge, the 40.8° oblique shock wave corresponds to about Mach 3. For a 3D cone, the Mach number is around 2.
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The NGAD prototype has already flown and broken records according to the USAF. I am 99% sure the record broken was the manned aircraft air breathing speed record. Faster than the SR-71. The sweep angle points to Mach 3+ top speed.

I am not saying NGAD is in the same speed class as the SR-71. There is a huge difference from hitting Mach 3.5 for a single second and cruising at Mach 3.4 for 15 minutes.

It was rumored that the F-15EX got very close to Mach 3 in a dash. It shouldn't be too difficult to go 20% faster than the F-15EX with a optimised highly swept design like the NGAD renderings and with the XA100, XA101 style adaptive engines.

This is most likely why we have continuous SR-72 rumors. Take a look at Google images when you type SR-72 and NGAD. Very similar designs from a cosmetic perspective. Very different from an engine persepctive. NGAD would be optimised to supercruise close to Mach 2 without afterburner using a three stream turbofan for 1,000+ nm. The SR-72 with it's rumored Mach 5+ top speed points towards a turbofan that can switch to scramjet mode. I am 99% sure the SR-72 doesn't exist and every rumor is just the NGAD prototype that uses more conventional propulsion. Any hypersonic rumor coming out of Lockheed would be from a high speed missile development.

I am 90% sure NGAD is already in low rate production at Skunkworks like the F-117. Entirely funded by the black budget so no public contract will exist. In the first gulf war the F-117 surprised the world when they started landing in Saudi Arabia. I expect in 2027 we might see photos of dozens of NGAD fighters landing in Japan. From an operational perspective NGAD will offer a niche capability like the F-117 did. I would expect around 50 aircraft produced.

F/A-XX for the US Navy will be a public program. It will be purchased in much larger quantities. It will also be much cheaper than NGAD. F/A-XX will be slower than NGAD as it needs to have good range while still being able to operate from an aircraft carrier.
 
RJMAZ said:
The NGAD prototype has already flown and broken records according to the USAF. I am 99% sure the record broken was the manned aircraft air breathing speed record. Faster than the SR-71. The sweep angle points to Mach 3+ top speed.
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I thought they were referencing how fast they got the initial design into the air?
 
In_A_Dream said:
I thought they were referencing how fast they got the initial design into the air?
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"All I can say is that the NGAD test flights have been amazing -- records have been broken," Will Roper says.

That is the quote. This means a record has been broken in the flight test. Climb records would be the least likely to be broken as NGAD is a long range design and won't be able to beat a stripped down Su-27 or F-15. Altitude records are also very high. This is why the speed record is the most likely record. The Mig-25 using old turbojets could get within 15% of the SR-71's record.
 
RJMAZ said:
The NGAD prototype has already flown and broken records according to the USAF.
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These were technology demonstrators, not prototypes. They did not represent a prototype of a prospective operational system.

RJMAZ said:
I am 90% sure NGAD is already in low rate production at Skunkworks like the F-117.
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No production money has been allocated for NGAD.

RJMAZ said:
Entirely funded by the black budget so no public contract will exist.
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NGAD contracts are public.
Sadly people who make hand-wavey “it’s the black budget” comments are just lazy and using it as a MacGuffin. While no one expects Joe Internet to have the experience of 30 years of disassembling government budgets the standards for those who publish “news” articles that compose Joe”s information diet should be much higher.
 
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RJMAZ said:
I am 90% sure NGAD is already in low rate production at Skunkworks like the F-117.
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Even with the whole rehearsal going on with NGAD?

RJMAZ said:
In the first gulf war the F-117 surprised the world when they started landing in Saudi Arabia.
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F-117's were long declassified before their war debut. Their first combat debut wasn't even the Gulf War, but Panama.
 
eagle said:
Mach 2.497 actually.
Boeing's program manager misspoke.
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That is usually what happens when someone accidentally says restricted information. They have to say they misspoke. He originally said mach 2.9. When misspeaking it is common to get two numbers the wrong way around. But he said "nearly mach 3". Mach 2.497 is not "nearly mach 3."

"Nearly mach 3" matches his "mach 2.9" quote.

The official F-15E fact sheet on the USAF website says Mach 2.5 plus. The F-15EX has engines with 23% more thrust than the original F-15E engines.

If you want to accept the Mach 2.497 speed that is fine. I think the majority of members will now take the Mach 2.9 speed for the F-15EX. That is why I am using it as supporting evidence for the NGAD prototype hitting Mach 3.5 in a very short sprint. Top speed is the most likely record that was broken on the test flight.
 
paralay said:
In order to exceed the limit of M = 2.5 (2655 km / h), it is required to make an aircraft either from steel or titanium. A steel aircraft will not have spacious weapon bay, a titanium one costs two to two and a half times more expensive than an aluminum one
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Do you feel that advances in composite materials could counter this?
 
paralay said:
In order to exceed the limit of M = 2.5 (2655 km / h), it is required to make an aircraft either from steel or titanium. A steel aircraft will not have spacious weapon bay, a titanium one costs two to two and a half times more expensive than an aluminum one
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That is not true. The duration of the time spent at high speed determines the heat load rather than the maximum speed achieved.

NGAD will be designed for extended periods of supercruise. NGAD supercruising at Mach 2 for 1,000 miles would put more heat load on the aircraft structure than sprinting to Mach 3.5 for a few seconds. NGAD will have extreme levels of cooling most likely using the fuel as a heat sink. It will pump fuel through the hot edges as coolant. 3D printing will be great for this like how the rocket industry is now doing this with the nozzle cooling. NGAD will also use high temperature materials to handle the long duration supercruise requirement. NGAD is also shaped to avoid hot spots. That high price also points towards a large percentage of titanium. A brief sprint to Mach 3.5 would only cause problems to the stealth coatings as it would not have enough time for the heat to penetrate deep inside the aircraft.

Any speed limitations imposed on NGAD would be to simply manage the stealth coatings. This is similar to the F-35 and F-22 where they have a certain time limits at high speed or with afterburner usage. Once everything cools down they can go fast again. I'm sure the record breaking NGAD test flight had the paint looking nice and crispy.

This doesn't mean NGAD will be flying at Mach 3.5 during combat but it was simply a demonstration. NGAD flying it's entire mission supercruising at Mach 2 is already impressive. It will be very hard to intercept or shoot down once you add the low radar cross section.
 
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RJMAZ said:
The official F-15E fact sheet on the USAF website says Mach 2.5 plus. The F-15EX has engines with 23% more thrust than the original F-15E engines.
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The -229 engines are 23% more powerful than the -220 engines, yet the F-15E-229 maxes out at Mach 2.35 whereas the F-15E-220 goes up to Mach 2.4 (clean, on a standard day).
Meaning: static sea level thrust numbers are rather meaningless for top speed.

RJMAZ said:
If you want to accept the Mach 2.497 speed that is fine. I think the majority of members will now take the Mach 2.9 speed for the F-15EX.
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If by majority you mean yourself, then yes. :D
 
RJMAZ said:
The official F-15E fact sheet on the USAF website says Mach 2.5 plus. The F-15EX has engines with 23% more thrust than the original F-15E engines
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I don't think the F-15A was thrust limited for max speed. There is more to operating at high speed than thrust/drag.
 
RJMAZ said:
The duration of the time spent at high speed determines the heat load rather than the maximum speed achieved
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Not really. A particular shape at a particular speed will result in a particular maximum heating effect. Altitude will not change this number, but will affect the rate of the transfer. Time spent below the time necessary to transfer the maximum heat load will obviously result in a lower temperature, but there is no magic that let's you go at some extremely fast speed just because you do it briefly.

And materials as a rule hate repeated extreme heating and cooling cycles. You can do a lot of abusive things with an airframe, if you only want it to fly that one time.
 
paralay said:
In order to exceed the limit of M = 2.5 (2655 km / h), it is required to make an aircraft either from steel or titanium. A steel aircraft will not have spacious weapon bay, a titanium one costs two to two and a half times more expensive than an aluminum one
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Beyond the airframe, what is the heat rating for that enormous polymer canopy? You think they designed it for Mach 3 thermal loads? Probably not. And the local thermal load would probably be even higher in front because of the shape.
 
quellish said:
These were technology demonstrators, not prototypes. They did not represent a prototype of a prospective operational system.
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Now you are contradicting yourself.

quellish said:
www.defensenews.com

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet

Does this give the Next Generation Air Dominance program more momentum, or does it open it up to more scrutiny?
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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Your link just said they flew a full-scale prototype. The title of your link:

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet

Its OK. We dont need to debate over the exact terminology. Or which budget paid for the aircraft.

orca-image-1766359962.jpeg
 
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RJMAZ said:
Now you are contradicting yourself.


Your link just said they flew a a full-scale prototype. The title of your link:

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet
THE  RJMAZ ZONE!
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The author seems to be making the same mistake you are, but if you read the quotes, it is pretty clear.
 
_Del_ said:
The author seems to be making the same mistake you are, but if you read the quotes, it is pretty clear.
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The biggest mistake would be not having a sense of humour. Saying "not a prototype" and then the very next post sharing a link titled "full-scale prototype" is quite hilarious.
 

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