USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

But that was in a simulator, it wasn't a live package fitted into a real UCAV and actually operating in real 3D space or reliant on a potentially vulnerable datalink. Indeed DARPA stated that it was possibly being 10 years away from being ready to actually 'fly' a fighter in combat.
There were some flaws, such as not observing 500ft separation distances which meant that in real combat some of those AI drones (having been programmed as 'expendable') would have flown through debris fields from their kills and actually risk damaging or downing themselves in the process. A Loyal Wingman has to be loyal and on your wing, if it dies in its own fratricide then its not really useful as a reliable wingman.

The software has to be run in the UCAV unless you want to jam up the network so that adds cost to the drone. If it is shot down, potentially your adversary can access the AI system and find out its weaknesses. That means programming it make sure its not expendable and therefore the AI must be as concerned about its own life preservation as a human and therefore desist from Hollywood epic style stunts. It can probably still perform better in dogfights than a fighter constrained by human physiology but it might blunt the edge.
Besides wouldn't a smart AI think that dogfighting is a waste of effort and no go for the long-range sniper kill if it could? One of the AI systems tested went in for the close-in cannon kill option every time, but is that necessarily the best way? Yes these systems learn but are they necessarily learning the best methods? Lots of work to be done I feel before we can elevate these from high-end gaming software to real fighter pilot brains.
But if the UCAV is flown by AI, the data link is less relevant, not that most modern fighters don't have datalinks with each other and the ground anyway.
Physical, RF datalinks may become less relevant. But the conceptual, virtual data link--the expanse of time that connects the human software-developer/pilot and his understanding of air combat requirements with the vehicle executing his software in actual air combat, becomes an ever more severe problem. If we are assuming that a given vehicle has capabilities much in advance of a 1970's vintage Ryan 147 recon drone, the software development issue becomes a huge one.

"AI" systems are currently spoken of as magic once was. When they are blithely credited with amazing, revolutionary abilities, little or nothing is said of how this will be achieved. These machines are not currently intelligent in any meaningful sense. They do not formlate decisions based on perceptions and imagined future outcomes. On the contrary, they are automata, essentially no more than sophisticated versions of the little, wind-up, hopping rabbit toys I used to get in Christmas stockings--their future actions depend entirely on the capabilities engineered into them when hardware was last refreshed and code was last updated. Given a pre-programmed input--whether a hand releasing a tight spring or an electromagnetic waveform that its human developers associate with a missile launch--the machine executes an automatic response programmed in by human developers. Denser, more integrated, faster processors, memory chips, and interconnects do not alter this reality. They just make the plastic bunny hop faster and higher.

By putting software on the platform and eliminating the remote pilot and RF link, we merely trade the synchronous, near-real-time reactions of a remote human operator, delayed by seconds due to the speed of light and limited bandwidth, for an asynchronous reaction delayed by the months or years of debugging, redevelopment, testing, and deployment that constitute reaction to an unanticipated run-time software problem.

This is not to say that more sophisticated drones can't be useful or can't do more than the old-style ones. But it does mean that there is no "AI" free lunch here. Adding autonomy requires tradeoffs.

One of these tradeoffs is the above mentioned loss of real-time control over a weapon that must function in a remote, highly dynamic environment. In exchange for autonomy, we have to rely much more heavily on the judgement of the policy makers and requirements analysts that define what systems will have to do and on the engineering managers and programmers that have to implement against requirements. These people will have to anticipate more, see further into the future, and make vastly more reliable predictions than have been the norm to date. This should be a sobering thought: historically, how often have policy, planning, and requirements correctly anticipated coming reality?

Another is loss of "situational awareness" due to too much data and too little information. Data is not information. UNtil data is filtered, processed, correlated, and applied t decision making, it is just noise. More manned fighters means more airmen monitoring sensors (from eyeballs to radar), filtering data, and assimilating results, and thus gathering usable information. A manned aircraft and a swarm of "AI" drones loaded with sensors might provide vastly more data. But the reduced number of human aircrew would result in much reduced filtering and processing to produce real-time information. The pilot would have to rely on the perspicacity, foresight, and information-forming abilities of the engineers that programmed the drones all those years before.

Another is cost vs. capability. A Ryan 147 with a camera package or a Reaper with a Hellfire offers a modest capability at modest cost. The former flies a fixed course. The latter is guided by a human via datalink and video camera. Neither is exactly cheap. But both are much less costly than a manned jet fighter. The Ukrainian off-the-shelf, hobbyist quadrotor with IR camera and a mortar bomb or RPG-warhead payload is much less costly still. All else being equal, if the target is a tank and within range, the Ukrainian solution is vastly cheaper and vastly more effective: its hard for the human operator to miss from directly above, a dead stop, and just a few meters up. But both current talk and history strongly suggest that "AI Loyal wing men" are already heading in the opposite direction, toward the cost of the jet fighter or more. The high cost and high risks of implementing autonomy seems likely to be minimally counterbalanced by any reasonably anticipated benefits. As even their proponents admit, these "loyal wing men" are likely to supplement rather than replace manned aircraft. But does the limited, supplementary roles offset the high cost of developing the platform, the high risk of relying on it in real combat, and the capabilities that air forces will have to give up (like real-time control) when fielding it?

The degree of reliance on human policy, program management, and foresight that the "AI loyal wing man" project requires is thus the key caveat that should be kept in mind when considering or advocating for these projects. I do not see the weapons systems themselves as particularly revolutionary. But the scope of the requirements-planning and software implementation effort is unprecedented. For the Manhattan Project, we started with a good grasp of the physics and could thus pursue a reasonably clear, if complicated and expensive, development effort. Here, we start with no precise definition of what intelligence, much less "artificial" intelligence, is. We are galloping along on implementation without first defining the nature of the problem or the solution, while counting on "AI" magic to handle the hard stuff. What could possibly go wrong?
 
I have a suspicion the "one year" NGAD X plane was in fact a modified F-22

What if the USAF had secretly dug out of secure storage some of the F-22 production jigs and tooling and used it to be build a new F-22 with upgrades?

I thought the tooling and jigs had been disposed off....destroyed??

I totally forgot to ask the magic questions about NGAD and 6th gen when I was all weekend and week at RIAT then Farnborough as was concentrating on helo stuff. Then again with the en masse emails on various presentations from the likes of the OEMS, ..plus press releases, not one did I see was related to our favourite topic here. Not even from the media outlets, unless I missed out on anything.

Laughingly enough I popped by the Kratos booth to talk about their programs especially the Valkyrie as it was originally a classified program. It flew for first time few years back, semi officially released to the media. I chatted with the senior executive and he was open but wry about the classified background of it.

Thing is though I can see some comparisons with NGAD in a way, for all we know the likes of AFMC - AFRL are probably pairing both whatever the 6th gen fast jet with this and Loyal Wingman in trials?

Any sightings to report lol or any thoughts please?

cheers
 

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In essence restarting a broken-down production line for ONE plane would be... <British accent>Rather expensive and perhaps a bit wasteful.</British accent>
Not the whole production line just enough applicable jigs and tooling to use for building an F-22 based demonstrator aircraft.

I thought the tooling and jigs had been disposed off....destroyed??

No and while that is what usually happens after a production line closes in this case the US Congress via legislation directed that the F-22 production jigs and tooling be put into controlled, secure storage to be guarded by the US Army.
 
Laughingly enough I popped by the Kratos booth to talk about their programs especially the Valkyrie as it was originally a classified program. It flew for first time few years back, semi officially released to the media. I chatted with the senior executive and he was open but wry about the classified background of it.
Eh? I thought the LCAS D program that Valkyrie won was open? It was to a BAA from AFRL.

Or do you mean some of the background Kratos brought into this?
 
In essence restarting a broken-down production line for ONE plane would be... <British accent>Rather expensive and perhaps a bit wasteful.</British accent>
Not the whole production line just enough applicable jigs and tooling to use for building an F-22 based demonstrator aircraft.
Yes. That requires the majority of the production line to be reactivated. You need all of that stuff to build an F22.
 
I think it’s fine to reduce capability if that capability isn’t useful in the current context. Most of the USAF cuts seem rational to me because they wouldn’t impact a war with China significantly. The reality is that USAF doesn’t need anything like the capability it was prepared to deploy in Europe given current events.
 

Several UAVs Under Development for Next-Generation Carrier Air Wing​


By: Sam LaGrone
July 13, 2022 9:48 PM

Several new unmanned aerial vehicles are under development as part of the Navy’s air wing of the future concept in addition to the unmanned aerial tanker[...]

The new aircraft are being designed to meet growing requirements for range for carrier air wings, Rear Adm. Andrew Loiselle, the Navy’s air warfare director (OPNAV N98) ,said during a naval aviation panel at the Naval Institute, co-hosted by the Center for Strategic and International Studies[...]

[...]The next step for the Navy is to bring an unmanned aerial refueling aircraft to operate further from the carrier to extend the range of the existing airwing. The first operational MQ-25A Stingray aerial refueling UAVs are set to deploy aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-73) by 2026[...]

As for new aircraft, he did not elaborate on the UAVs in the works. The Navy has kept mum on its research and development efforts into almost all of its new carrier air wing aircraft.

The Navy has classified the spending for the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program that is expected to produce a manned fighter to replace the Super Hornets in the 2030s.

Loiselle did define three categories of unmanned aircraft his office is considering.

The first set is something that can go into a hostile environment, high threat environment, and it can stay there, it can persist in a high threat environment.

The second set is something that can go to that high threat environment, perform a given mission, briefly – a strike mission –and then leave and have a very high chance of coming home,” he said.

“The last set is something that is at an attritable price point, a much smaller vehicle that might perform any number of different missions.
Anything from going out there with our fighter aircraft and carrying more air-to-air missiles… or we might someday integrate that type of thing into our electronic warfare, a distributed architecture that would conduct that mission. And then we might also use those same types of drones for a distributed command and control network.”

The UAVs aren’t part of the NGAD (pronounced En-JAD by the Navy, Loiselle said) program but would be part of the ongoing development of the fighter.

“They are not exclusively for that platform. Okay, there’s equal applicability in the manned-unmanned teaming concept for any small [UAS] to be used with any aircraft on our flight deck. It’s not limited to that one capability,” he said.
Interesting this dropped shortly after Lockheed revealed their vision for a future Family of Systems, but no Conceptual Art, no nothing this time?

 
 
From page 2:
"In addition, several other reported programs are either in development or currently undergoing experimentation. These programs include the Air Force’s B-21 Raider and the Air Force’s RQ-180."

Curious food for thought - could they be acknowledging "RQ-180" designation as the official one ?
 
Seems more likely he's just using the commonly accepted street name; the "RQ-180" is an open secret now.
 
Is the RQ-180 the one that the Iranians claimed they successfully hacked and brought down?
 
From page 2:
"In addition, several other reported programs are either in development or currently undergoing experimentation. These programs include the Air Force’s B-21 Raider and the Air Force’s RQ-180."

Curious food for thought - could they be acknowledging "RQ-180" designation as the official one ?

Congressional Research Service reports sit in an odd place. They are usually based on public information combined with some responses from the services. As such, they don't represent the official positions of the services. Their goal is to describe the nature of the choices Congress members will have to consider during their oversight of budgeting for the services.
 

I suspect they are focusing publicly so much on the unmanned component because Northrop will be getting the manned part.
 
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The problem the author of the article makes, among the many, is we don't have the most basic clue about the requirements of NGAD. It's the requirements that drive the design. Granted, we know it will be supersonic and it will be stealthy and it will most likely have twin engines. I say the last mainly because of the size class the vehicle is likely to be in, trying to package one engine that large would be silly. It also may have no vertical tails or variable geometry vertical tails; flat for stealth, butterfly for maneuverability. Also, it will have a crew of one. We also don't have any clue on the load out. Will it carry just enough for self defense and rely on UCAV for the offensive attack? Or will it carry as much as an F-22 and use the UCAVs as adjuncts and deeper weapons magazines? That's the balance that I think is going to be critical to the sizing of NGAD. That and the required range. Having said that, I expect it to have some form of arrow / delta or diamond wing (supersonic with a lot of volume for fuel) versus a trapezoidal wing (good for subsonic and transonic performance, but limited fuel capacity).
 
The problem the author of the article makes, among the many, is we don't have the most basic clue about the requirements of NGAD. It's the requirements that drive the design. Granted, we know it will be supersonic and it will be stealthy and it will most likely have twin engines. I say the last mainly because of the size class the vehicle is likely to be in, trying to package one engine that large would be silly. It also may have no vertical tails or variable geometry vertical tails; flat for stealth, butterfly for maneuverability. Also, it will have a crew of one. We also don't have any clue on the load out. Will it carry just enough for self defense and rely on UCAV for the offensive attack? Or will it carry as much as an F-22 and use the UCAVs as adjuncts and deeper weapons magazines? That's the balance that I think is going to be critical to the sizing of NGAD. That and the required range. Having said that, I expect it to have some form of arrow / delta or diamond wing (supersonic with a lot of volume for fuel) versus a trapezoidal wing (good for subsonic and transonic performance, but limited fuel capacity).
The only thing is, would two seats make sense for a UAV operator?
 
Given its size and the complexity of its role in battle field management, hopefully the NGAD will be 2-manned.
 
The only thing is, would two seats make sense for a UAV operator?

I was thinking that, but the USAF doesn't really like two seat aircraft for front line fighters, not to mention the cost it adds. I think they are going to try and avoid it and use a lot of AI. Also, due to networking, some of that may even be handled by AWACs. So much of it depends on how the entire NGAD system is set up to operate, it's difficult to say. I could definitely see the new Naval fighter having a two man crew, as they like the SA it offers.
 
Given its size and the complexity of its role in battle field management, hopefully the NGAD will be 2-manned.
As others say, with automation what it is it doesn't need to be. It may be a benefit but costs are already said to be astronomically high.
 
If recent lockheed graphics are to be believed, NGAD is intended to operate ahead of the drone formation.
Frankly speaking, doesn't seem to be the right spot to do the control. F-35s (from within the formation) or even F-15EXs (from behind it) can do the same just as well.
 
If recent lockheed graphics are to be believed, NGAD is intended to operate ahead of the drone formation.
Frankly speaking, doesn't seem to be the right spot to do the control. F-35s (from within the formation) or even F-15EXs (from behind it) can do the same just as well.

Way back when that was sorta the plan with the Raptor. Target something and have another plane in the back take the shot.
 
If recent lockheed graphics are to be believed, NGAD is intended to operate ahead of the drone formation.
Frankly speaking, doesn't seem to be the right spot to do the control. F-35s (from within the formation) or even F-15EXs (from behind it) can do the same just as well.

Way back when that was sorta the plan with the Raptor. Target something and have another plane in the back take the shot.
It is quite likely it is the plan once again.
Raptor can't really be expected to do it by the end of this decade (not sure it should be expected to do it against PLAAF even now).
NGAD with its (possibly) much deeper multi-band stealth and relevant datalinks - can.
 
So AETP (F-35) for GE
NGAP goes to PW
Enhanced PW F-135 mounted on Marines F-35B?

Or
Enhanced PW F-135 for all F-35
NGAP for GE
And AETP dies of a good death with PW left without an advanced modern engine design for the next decade or more.

There is probably a third solution:
NGAP is made a twin engines and GE NGAP goes on the left while PW fits the starboard side!
 
So AETP (F-35) for GE
NGAP goes to PW
Enhanced PW F-135 mounted on Marines F-35B?

Or
Enhanced PW F-135 for all F-35
NGAP for GE
And AETP dies of a good death with PW left without an advanced modern engine design for the next decade or more.

There is probably a third solution:
NGAP is made a twin engines and GE NGAP goes on the left while PW fits the starboard side!
Fourth option, GE gets NGAD and PW NGAP goes to USN 6th gen.
 
I think Congress might have a sizable fit if USAF tries to put down AETP without putting it in any aircraft.
 
For sure, but if the past is any indicator, they'll drop the ball and be stuck with F-35Cs for the next 40 years.
The Fifth Horseman is Stupidity and - stop me if you've heard this one before - Kelly Johnson's fifteenth rule of management is 'Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what the hell they want and will drive you up a wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy.'
 
Nobody has designed a clean-sheet fighter for the USN since VFX which gave birth to the F-14. 1969 was a long time ago...

The F/A-18 was a reworked YF-17 and the Super Hornet was a reworked Hornet. The F-35C is a variant of the F-35 programme and very much tied up with the basic F-35A architecture. How likely is it that the USN will get the funding to build its own 6th Gen super fighter independent of NGAD when for 50 years it's been able to piggyback on USAF development programmes?
 
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The F-35C is a variant of the F-35 programme and very much tied up with the basic F-35A architecture. How likely is it that the USN will get the funding to build its own 6th Gen super fighter independent of NGAD when for 50 years it's been able to piggyback on USAF development programmes?
Uhhh, you know, the origins of JSF/JAST can be traced back to the joint US-UK studies on a stealth supersonic VTOL fighter that will replace Harrier?
 

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