Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is a contemporary notice that the Avions Marcel Dassault Mirage III T prototype had achieved Mach 2.2 powered by a single SNECMA/Pratt & Whitney TF106 afterburning turbofan engine......

The notice comes from the 1st January 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 
Dear Boys and Girls, here is a small piece in French about flight-testing the Avions Marcel Dassault Mirage III T prototype; note the SNCASE SE.2060 Armagnac engine test-bed aircraft in the background......

The piece comes from the 1st August 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 
Mirage III 01 2d form
 

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yes very interesting,this is my work
 

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PaulMM said:
Let me try...

Wow fantastic find and (clean up)!!
Now would not this 'family tree' look even better if it was up to date and complete - aka all the way up to the Rafale ;)

Regards
Pioneer
 
In Tophe's post #155, the attached image is obviously a crop from a larger image. Is it possible to show the whole image, please?


cheers,
Robin.
 
Thanks...I already had it and didn't realise.... :-[


cheers,
Robin.
 
Prompted by a discussion over on Beyond The Sprues, I was recently looking in Stewart Wilson's book, "Meteor, Sabre and Mirage in Australian Service" and came across this mention of some proposed upgrades for the RAAF Mirage IIIOs:

"...major refurbishing and re-engining alternatives were offered by Israeli Aircraft Industries and in 1970 by Rolls-Royce's Bristol Engines Division who proposed the Mirage IIIO 'Plus'. their scheme involved installing an afterburning Viper turbojet in its own pod on top of the rear fuselage (rather like a DC-10's central engine), remounting the existing fin on top of that, zero timing the airframe, lengthening the forward fuselage to compensate for the changed centre of gravity and installing extra fuel in that new area of fuselage..."

Does anyone have any more information on this Mirage IIIO 'Plus' proposal, especially drawings?

Regards,

Greg
 
GTX said:
Prompted by a discussion over on Beyond The Sprues, I was recently looking in Stewart Wilson's book, "Meteor, Sabre and Mirage in Australian Service" and came across this mention of some proposed upgrades for the RAAF Mirage IIIOs:

"...major refurbishing and re-engining alternatives were offered by Israeli Aircraft Industries and in 1970 by Rolls-Royce's Bristol Engines Division who proposed the Mirage IIIO 'Plus'. their scheme involved installing an afterburning Viper turbojet in its own pod on top of the rear fuselage (rather like a DC-10's central engine), remounting the existing fin on top of that, zero timing the airframe, lengthening the forward fuselage to compensate for the changed centre of gravity and installing extra fuel in that new area of fuselage..."

Does anyone have any more information on this Mirage IIIO 'Plus' proposal, especially drawings?

Regards,

Greg

Never heard of that before.

Sounds interesting.

Although one would be tempted to ask why they would bother?

It would have been far better to stick either an Avon in, as originally proposed for the RAAF Mirage, or a reheated Spey as used in the Phantom F4K for the Royal Navy.

Both would have offered a substantial thrust increase, which seems to be the point of this proposal with the Viper.

That Avon Mirage III was a great missed opportunity, methinks.

It would be interesting to see pics of this proposal wth the Viper.
 
I remember, from early 80's, that for some time Mirage 2000 was evaluated by Italian Air Force (always looking for a F-104 G/S replacement), I wonder if Dassault has made some specific version or proposal for Italy or if they were essentially the same machines provided to the Armee de l'Air.
 
Bonjour Hesham

From "les avions de combat Francais" Jean Cuny

perhaps this ????
 

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Thank you my dear Toura,


and I have the book,Les Avions de Compbat Francais,but the Mirage III naval version will
be so weird.
 
Hi,


here is the Mirage-2000 early concept.


Flygvapennytt 1-1976
 

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Deltafan said:
Mirage 3 : Avion de chasse - Documentaire complet

It's the same title for Youtube and Dailymotion.

MD 550 - 1951 is seeable around 9'10"

MD 550 - 1952 is seeable around 11'50"

Thank you.
 
hesham said:
Hi,


here is the Mirage-2000 early concept.


Flygvapennytt 1-1976


This was actually part of a Flight speculative analysis in early 1976.


https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1976/1976%20-%200124.html?search=mirage%202000
 
LowObservable said:
hesham said:
Hi,


here is the Mirage-2000 early concept.


Flygvapennytt 1-1976


This was actually part of a Flight speculative analysis in early 1976.


https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1976/1976%20-%200124.html?search=mirage%202000


Tell you what...that looks like a side profile of and is extremely similar to the speculative "Cava" (actually Carver) artwork that Flight International (same company I think) posted in 1989. Especially the intakes, but with a single seat and no canard. Same artist? ;D
 

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Petrus said:
Deltafan said:

I can't watch the movie - it doesn't start (while other films at dailymotion.com do).

Any ideas what to do?

Piotr
You can use Jdownloader to download any kind of video (or any type of file for that matter) from any site. He catches links from clipboard. For instance, if youtube has 240,480,720 and 1080(full HD) versions of some video clip, you can choose which type to download.
 
I asked because I have indeed read that the Japanese preferred the Super Tiger over the F-104. But not the Germans.

The Japanese were looking for a interceptor/fighter, so the Tiger would would make sense, given the requirement. But the Grumman machine seems like almost as poor a choice for the German low-level nuclear strike role as the Mirage.

On the other hand, I have also seen claims that the Saunders Roe SR.177 was the preferred German choice, which seems even less likely. So, perhaps Germany's focus on nuclear deterrence was not as single-minded or exclusive as I have always heard.
 
hesham said:
That's very nice Cafe,


specially Milan artist drawing.

Nice artwork!
I find this painting interesting, as it shows the clever drop-tank/weapons pylon arrangement!
Does anyone know how much this effected the fuel-capacity off the drop-tank, and was it a more aerodynamic/efficient way to carry ordinance?

Regards
Pioneer
 
iverson said:
But the Grumman machine seems like almost as poor a choice for the German low-level nuclear strike role as the Mirage.

Not so sure about that. The Swiss assessment of the Super Tiger had a lot of low level and air to ground in it and they were very impressed. The J79 Tiger appeared to comfortably outperform the F-104 and Mirage IIIC (with original Atar 9B) in all assessments. Of course since every customer that turned down the Super Tiger later had a huge political 'affair' over the rival choice (both F-104s and Miros) says much for the assessment processes. Shame Grumman didn't pitch the Super Tiger to the RAAF a year or so after these affairs. They would have gotten a fair assessment and maybe even a customer.
 
iverson said:
I asked because I have indeed read that the Japanese preferred the Super Tiger over the F-104. But not the Germans.

The German minister of defence of that time was a super corrupt guy with no passion for defence. He caused many scandals and was generally more a politician with interest in power and personal wealth than with interest in doing good policy or doing a good executive job.

I've never seen German pre-purchase assessments of the F-104 by experts such as Steinhoff.
If anything, it excelled at being a quasi-nuclear missile with a very low trajectory.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
iverson said:
But the Grumman machine seems like almost as poor a choice for the German low-level nuclear strike role as the Mirage.

Not so sure about that. The Swiss assessment of the Super Tiger had a lot of low level and air to ground in it and they were very impressed. The J79 Tiger appeared to comfortably outperform the F-104 and Mirage IIIC (with original Atar 9B) in all assessments. Of course since every customer that turned down the Super Tiger later had a huge political 'affair' over the rival choice (both F-104s and Miros) says much for the assessment processes. Shame Grumman didn't pitch the Super Tiger to the RAAF a year or so after these affairs. They would have gotten a fair assessment and maybe even a customer.
The Swiss air-to-ground requirement would probably be very different from the more specialized (and probably less realistic) German requirement. For air support with conventional weapons, the Super Tiger's larger wing area and lower wing loading might be a plus. But for high-speed, low-level nuclear strike, both characteristics would likely result in a punishing ride and consequent loss of pilot efficiency and structural problems.
 
lastdingo said:
iverson said:
I asked because I have indeed read that the Japanese preferred the Super Tiger over the F-104. But not the Germans.

The German minister of defence of that time was a super corrupt guy with no passion for defence. He caused many scandals and was generally more a politician with interest in power and personal wealth than with interest in doing good policy or doing a good executive job.

I've never seen German pre-purchase assessments of the F-104 by experts such as Steinhoff.
If anything, it excelled at being a quasi-nuclear missile with a very low trajectory.
That the F-104 deal was corrupt is beyond dispute. Most of the arms deals in the 20th century were probably corrupt (Dassault iwas reputedly no stranger to bribery in its many Mirage sales). But the F-104 deal is at the very least unusually well documented in this respect.

I confess that I do not know the Herr Steinhoff to whom you refer. But defense decisions of the time were not made by pilots. They were made by politicians--which would include almost all flag-rank officers of the time--and technical specialist drawn from industry and "think tanks".

"Being a quasi-nuclear missile with a very low trajectory" was thus exactly what Germany's decision makers wanted at the time--and for some time after (witness the VAK191B design and the later ZELL F-104 experiments). Western leaders all seemed convinced that they could never hope to defeat a Soviet invasion by conventional means, at least at reasonable cost. In the face of largely imaginary, overwhelming Soviet numerical superiority in troops and tanks, nuclear bombs were "clearly" the only hope. If, coincidentally, American-supplied nuclear weapons were cheap by comparison with conventional armies and thus helped the budget, so much the better.

The same kind of thinking that made the nuclear mine and the Davy Crockett bazooka seem like good ideas thus made the F-104 the obvious best choice for a new NATO fighter bomber. The fact that the assumptions and thus the requirements of the time proved unrealistic in hindsight, making the F-104 a poor choice in later service, doesn't change anything.
 
There may be some truth in that, although we need to remember that the US was perfectly willing to supply nuclear weapons for British designed Canberras and Valiants.

I suspect that the Germans preferred the F-104 because it was the better aircraft, given Germany's perceived requirements. The Mirage (or almost any of the other contenders) would probably have made a better fighter. But Germany did not want a fighter. It wanted a bomber, with, as you note, nuclear capability. I suspect that Germany referred to the required aircraft as fighter due to the political and historical sensibilities of the time. Given the perceived tactical situation at the time, the Mirage would have made a poor bomber, while, quite serendipitously, the F-104, would have seemed near perfect.

From the end of WW2 through the late 1950s, bombers were designed to achieve the maximum possible height over the target. Altitude gave the attacker a critical time advantage. Given a high enough approach, a bomber could bomb its target and depart before an interceptor could respond to an alert and climb up to attack altitude. Good altitude performance demanded comparatively large wing area and low wing loading. The chosen wing planform depended on the lift-to-drag ratio required for a given speed. Subsonic aircraft like the B-47, B-52, Valiant, and Victor were given large-area high aspect ratio, moderately swept wings. Later supersonic equivalents like the B-58 received an equivalent, large-area planform with the low aspect ratio required for low drag at supersonic speed: the delta wing.

The Mirage was designed as a light, fast-climbing, supersonic interceptor capable of reaching a high-altitude bomber in time to make an attack. Like the larger and heavier F-102, F-106, and CF-105, it adopted the same delta wing for the same reason the B-58 did: large area for good climb and maneuverability at altitude combined with low supersonic drag.

Wrong. Ever heard of the Mirage III-E variant ? it did the exact same job the German F-104s did - low level penetration with a AN-52 nuke on the belly. First flight happened on April 5, 1961

m-iii-an-52.jpg
 
strangely all documents about F-104 deal in Luftwaffe got erroneous destroy in 1960...

one of the Key Element was the General Leutnant Josef Kammhuber, Who lay the specification for new Multirole Combat Aircraft far to High.
Mach 2, take off from short runway, has to do Bombing, interception, dogfight, reconnaissance and support gournd Trupps in combat.
there was no aircraft in end of 1950s that fit this Demands
Josef Kammhuber was a very personal Friend of minister Franz Josef Strauß and impinge on Strauß to acquire such a Aircraft

in Close selection came
- Saunders-Roe SR.177 (in Design Phase)
- Grumman F11F
- Mirage III (Prototype not ready)
- Lockheed F-104

Josef Kammhuber send Test pilot Walter Krupinski for comparison flights of models
here start something strange
Krupinski test flight the F-104 first, according some german source he never Tested the Grumman F11F
Then visit Dassault and insist to fly the Mirage I subsonic Prototype and not wait until the Mirage III Prototype is ready.
Krupinski had serous problem to fly the Mirage I and writhe a extreme negative Report not recommending this Aircraft
this report was handed by Kammhuber personally to minister Franz Josef Strauß in his Office.

was Krupinski bribed by Lockheed or was Kammhuber ?
Kammhuber, spend after WW2 allot time in USA and worked for USAF, before he return to West Germany to become member of new Luftwaffe
or was Kammhuber simply impress by USA Aircraft industry was making with research Data they loot from Third reich...
 
iverson said:
That the F-104 deal was corrupt is beyond dispute. (...) But the F-104 deal is at the very least unusually well documented in this respect.

The exceptionally high rate of German pilot loss on the F-104, and the public outrage that resulted, no doubt must have played a role in getting this type of information into the open.
 
Archibald said:
Wrong. Ever heard of the Mirage III-E variant ? it did the exact same job the German F-104s did - low level penetration with a AN-52 nuke on the belly.

Correct, but I have strong doubts, that France would have allowed for "nuclear sharing" with French weapons. And the US
perhaps put the use of an US aircraft as a prerequisit for such an agreement.
On the other hand, if the Mirage III would have resulted in a much lower loss rate, than the F-104G perhaps is doubtful,
if you have a look at this site http://yarchive.net/mil/german_f104_losses.html.
And if you have a look into the list of losses and their reasons (http://www.916-starfighter.de/GAF_crashes.htm ), ground
contacts, mid airs and other pilot related reasons seem to have quite a big share of all mishaps.
 
Ivran, what are your sources about the use of designation "MD 550" in 1951 ?
As far as know, the MD-550 was created by GAMD to respond to the call for tender issued by Armée de l’Air in February 1953 (to which SNCASO proposed the Trident and SNCASE the Durandal).
It would be quite an unusual commercial practice for the era to re-use an "old" pre-existing designation in such context.
 
only pictures from page 17, small frame from clip dassault mirage iii full story
 
unclear data from frame,only line drawing
maiby somebody have 3-view of Mirage G1, G2 or G3, variably geometry aircraft
very interesnig airplane-family, or variants.
Image or data only for Mirage G, G4-G8, other projects, are very rare
 
ivran said:
Image or data only for Mirage G, G4-G8, other projects, are very rare
That's because they were never built or even seriously studied. They were future variants of a basic version which was itself abandoned by the Armée de l'Air before real completion of the programme.


There is some information on the musée de l'air site:

Avec un avion aussi réussi, le bureau d’études de Dassault ne peut qu’étudier de nombreux dérivés : ceux-ci iront du Go (o pour Australie ! ) au G8, monomoteurs ou bimoteurs, avec tout ce qu’on peut imaginer comme moteurs, à l’époque : certes le TF-306, mais aussi les J-79, M53, Atar 9K50, Spey, RT172… Ainsi sont proposés un G1 pour se substituer au F1, un G2 version opérationnelle du G proposé aux Européens, un G3 qui est un G au fuselage agrandi, pour l’armée de l’Air et l’Aéronautique navale, un G5 pour aider LTV à préparer le concours du futur F-14, un G6 compromis d’un G4 allégé

the musée de l'air site is here and has some very nice photos.
 
Wrong. Ever heard of the Mirage III-E variant ? it did the exact same job the German F-104s did - low level penetration with a AN-52 nuke on the belly. First flight happened on April 5, 1961

m-iii-an-52.jpg

I don't think you have paid much attention to the detailed points that I have made.

Everyone is familiar with the Mirage IIIE. But the fact that a high-altitude interceptor was adapted as a low-level nuclear strike aircraft (somewhat later on, I believe) is of no consequence. The Mirage was chosen because it was the production aircraft that France had available. It was NOT chosen because it was the optimal design for the task or because it had the needed ridequalities and low gust response. The B-52 has been operated for low-level flight too. But no one would have selected it FOR low-level flight.

To reiterate, a large-area, lightly loaded delta like the Mirage's is almost as ill-suited to this flight regime as is a high-aspect-ratio, moderately swept wing like the B-52's. The delta's only advantage would be the low aspect ratio and comparative stiffness of this wing form. Gust response would still be poor and ride would be harsh,given the low wing loading. So, while I don't know the numbers, I expect that, for aerodynamic reasons alone, Mirage IIIEs flew less of their mission profile at truly low altitude and flew low at significantly lower speeds than F-104Gs.

This difference in low-level performance might or might not have been operationally significant, even if the experts of the time had correctly forecast future needs (which they didn't). But it doesn't matter. This kind of performance was BELIEVED to be important at the time. So the aircraft most likely to deliver it was going to be the winner.

Finally, attributing everything to bribery is a lot like conspiracy theory. The fallacy is not that bribery and conspiracy do not occur. History is full of both. The fallacy is the belief that bribery and conspiracy determine outcomes. Usually they don't. The reason is simple. It just isn't safe to take a bribe and then do something totally unexpected. The trick is to take the bribes to do what everyone expects--and what you would tus have had to do even without a bribe.

I have actually been in on the details of one case of international bribery. The persons who paid and took bribes never had any actual effect on the way the contracts were awarded. The solicitors of the bribe were not in a position to swing the deal, but were just clever enough, at an early stage, to see which way the competition was likely to go. So they sought a side profit on the result. The bribe payers saw more or less the same thing. For them, the payoff was the chance to take credit for a by then predetermined outcome. The contract was awarded as it would have been in any case. But, thereafter, a long-running business relationship was ruined. Once the chicanery was discovered, companies were barred from future bids, several high-ranking people lost jobs, a few people were prosecuted, and many others had to be careful about crossing certain borders thereafter. The bribes didn't change the outcome in the way they were supposed to. They just caused a lot of unanticipated collateral damage, most of it to the parties involved.

So I stick by my thesis. Given the time frame, the competing projects available, and the mission imagined for the aircraft, selection of the F-104G was largely foreordained. It was the only aircraft that could make a plausible low-level strike system. This plausibility was largely due to the happy accident of its wing planform. Like the later Mirage IIIC, the high-altitude F-104A needed a lot of structural strengthening to adapt it to the new role. It just happened that the F-104's tiny, stiff little trapezoid was much better for low-level flight than a delta. So, once it was beefed up into the F-104G, it looked much better for the role than any of its big-wing competitors.

Of course, once perceived defense requirements in the West started to emphasize conventional strike and close support, the F-104G no longer looked like a particulary good choice. The little wings couldn't carry the weapons loads required or support the kind of endurance needed for loitering over a battle field at medium altitude. In hindsight, the F-104 was an awful choice. But, in hindsight, given the lack of a European war during the same period, spending good money on ANY weapons system was a waste.
 
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