Unbuilt & Prototype Mirages 1955-1980

[frank]

Thanks!

 

[boxkite]

The AdA also tested ... the F-15B in April 1976 at Edwards AFB (it received french roundels!)

Archibald, is this 'French' F-15B illustrated anywhere?

 

[Antonio]

I have seen this pic in Keypublishing forum. I'm going to take a look and I'll send you later

 

[Antonio]

I've got it!

The F-15 and the Hornet

 

[Archibald]

And here's the Mega Mirage (pic from Alangua member of the whatif modeler forum , for Le Fana of this month)

 

[frank]

Thanks! Now I can figure the dims on her!

 

[boxkite]

I've got it!

The F-15 and the Hornet

Thank you for the pictures, Antonio

 

[Archibald]

Thanks! Now I can figure the dims on her!

Well, this could be very interesting for me as I plan to make a model of it!!!!!

I remember having checked the F-15 (and F-18) with French roundels for a Key Publishing thread (but-that-aircraft-never-flew-with-that-air-force thread, so there!)

The F-18 pic can be seen here
http://frenchnavy.free.fr/projects/hornet/hornet.htm


Concerning the Mega Mirage the Fana response confirmed what I thought from the beginning... this was only a drawing, never studied seriously by the AdA nor Dassault. This explain why there's no dimensions given, nor performances.

In the 1969-1974 era, main programs were the G and G8 variable sweep strike fighters (later, it was the ACF, then the 2000 and 4000)
All (salvo the 2000 of course!) were cancelled as too expensive... just imagine how costly this project would have been!!!

According to the answer, the name Mirage 6000 (and Mega Mirage) are erroneous. In fact this project had no precise name, once again because it was no taken seriously by the AdA nor Dassault.
In every case, Mirage 6000 was impossible, studies of the 2000 and 4000 only started in 1972. Their name at the name were Mami and Mimi (Maxi Mirage for the 4000, Mini Mirage for the 2000. The latter was also named Mirage 1000 at the beginning, for an obscure reason...)

 

[Archibald]

Every time I read the apendix of British secret projects (fighters and bombers), the page were ALL the Hawker projects are listed well I dream of the same thing applied to Dassault and others French constructors (it has been done for Breguet in 1977 by Jean Cuny, but Dassault sud and Nord still wait...)

 

[Antonio]

Well done Archibald,

I got my Le Fana's copy today ( Number 444 it is a delight for the fans!) and I saw your letter. The drawing from Alain Ratineau is gorgeus.

I dream about more information about Dassault design activities from 1960 to 2006 but that's only a dream. Every aircraft manufacturer would have to recruit an historian to record its activities. It is terrible to know that most of its projects simply vanish because nobody in the company is interested in its preservation. Terrible :'(

 

[Archibald]

S'il te plait papa noel... ;D

 

[Archibald]

Every aircraft manufacturer would have to recruit an historian to record its activities.

Hmm that's really my main target for the job

 

[Antonio]

Hmm that's really my main target for the job

Please call me if you need signatures for a recommendation letter to apply for the job at Dassault ;D

 

[Exit]

Just ask more infos on Dassault Passion Website by the Support Mail... ;D

 

[Archibald]

 

[Jemiba]

Wasn't there someone looking for pictures of the F-1 with the M.53 engine ?
(From : AviationWeek 10/74)

 

[Antonio]

Wasn't there someone looking for pictures of the F-1 with the M.53 engine ?

Wow!

Thanx a lot

 

[Archibald]

Very interesting findings!!! Thank you very much!!!

 

[Archibald]

...but it seems there's another aircraft beside the F1E on the pic! Is it a standard F1 ? ???
nice 3-view !!!

 

[Jemiba]

I would say, yes, it's astandard F1, but I'm not sure, so 'll mail you the complete page
this evening. Don't worry, it's less than 1 MB ! ;D

 

[Archibald]

And why should I worry ?

 

[elmayerle]

I'd like that page, too, please. I've the spare kits to model a F1-M53.

 

[Matej]

Among the rare western aircraft on display at Zhukovskiy, the Mirage F.1AZ in SAAF markings was definitely the most exotic one. This fighter, powered by a Russian SMR-95 engine (modernised MiG-29 RD-33 engine) is able to carry four R-73E AA-11 'Archer' air-to-air missiles. Named the Super Mirage F.1, it has been developed in co-operation by Klimov and Vympel in Russia and by Aerosud and Marvotech in South Africa. During the early nineties, the SAAF had considered the upgrade of its Mirage F.1 with the help of Russia, but the co-operation agreement broke down just after the first materials had been shipped. However, a single airframe (n°216) had been modified, early in 1994. As the Russian jet engine had been shipped back to Russia, Mirage n°216 went to Zhukovskiy by Il-76. The Super Mirage, again mated with a Russian engine, made its first test flight from Zhukovskiy on 9 August 2001, piloted by Major Johannes Joubert of the SAAF. It was claimed that it was the first flight of a foreign military aircraft to take place from this airfield. It remains to be proved, as for example, F-5s and A-37s were secretly tested in Akhtubinsk years before. Although the last SAAF F.1 were officially retired on 25 November 1997, negotiations between South African and Russian businessmen resumed in 2000, the objective now being to demonstrate the ability of the Russian aeronautical industry to upgrade western aircraft. Numerous countries are still flying the Mirage F.1, including 'rogue' ones, which cannot get any help from Dassault. South Africa has still 21 Mirage F.1AZs in storage at Waterkloof, waiting for a potential buyer. Armscor and Rosoboronexport are now responsible for the marketing of the Super Mirage, the price for the upgrade of a Mirage lying between three and four millions Dollars. This F.1 upgrade concept is however anachronistic: the upgrade of older aircraft most of the time concerns the avionics and the weapons systems rather than the engine. Compared to the SNECMA Atar 9K50 original engine (7,200 kn with AB), the SMR-95 engine is 300 kg lighter and more powerful (8,300 kn with AB). With 17,000 metres, the ceiling is 2,000 metres higher, whereas the range at cruising speed is augmented from 1,820 to 2,250 km. The maximum speed is voluntarily limited to Mach 1.8 (Mach 2.2 with the Atar engine). In any respect the flying display of that Super Mirage was quite more aggressive than that of an ordinary F.1.

 

[Akaikaze]

Ah, but where did the Mirage get it's start?
Answer: Fairey Delta 2. 'nuff said. ;D

 

[alertken]

'nuff said, Ha!
Delta aerodynamics was booty, disseminated by RAE, NACA/US, ONÉRA/France. M.Dassault taunted: “If it were not for the clumsy way (UK) tackle things, you could have made (it.)” J.Gee,Mirage,71,MacDonald: he alluded to FD.2, seen at Cazaux, departing 2 days before rollout of 1st. Mirage III. This super thread shows its lineage was not from Fairey, but M.D.550, inspired by Lippisch. Its ATAR was derived from BMW 003. If AMD picked any brains they were German...but they didn't. ONÉRA based a multi-role platform on a delta; everyone else saw as many problems as benefits from this layout. AMD was then so pro-active, Customer-friendly, as to win RAAF and dissuade them from an Avon fit. That is why UK commentators try to take vicarious credit for this fine, French product range.

 

[Sundog]

Ah, but where did the Mirage get it's start?
Answer: Fairey Delta 2. 'nuff said.

Stop being silly.
If we're basing it on flight vehicles, it started with the XF-92. However, that was based on German research by Lippisch and the Russians also had their own delta winged rocket powered fighter they were working on during WW2.

Where it actually got it's start is the same place all of the others, including the FD.2, got their start; highspeed aerodynamic research.

 

[Archibald]

France already had Nicolas Roland Payen and its Katy, which flew in 1951.

The guy pionered delta / canard right from 1935 withs its racers...

The role of the Katy was quite similar to the Delta I, Avro 707 Saab 210 Lill Drakken or Convair XF-92.

 

[Sundog]

Yes, I'm quite fond of Payen's designs. In fact, wasn't the first one to fly the small one with the fixed gear and the inline engine when France was occupied by Germany during WWII?

 

[Archibald]

this website is cool (Aviafrance)

The Pa.22 !!! (thought you talked about the Katy, sorry!)
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=852&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1012&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=

This is the Pa.49 Katy
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=8263&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1012&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=

You've got a list of all the Payen aircrafts on the left

 

[Jemiba]

All Payen aircraft ??? That would be really cool !
In fact, only post war, there should be at least a dozen ! And I don't know,
who's to blame, Philippe Ricco or my old friend Bruno Parmentier, but I think,
what is shown there as PA.61 is in fact the PA.60 ... ;D

 

[Deltafan]

I'm a great fan of Roland Payen ;D

All that I know is here :

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,395.75.html

I can add now for the books :
Gerfaut et Griffon, Serge Kaplan and Philippe Ricco, AVIA éditions, 2006 : page 38


But I'm waiting the book of Pierre Gaillard about Payen since 6 (!!!!!!) years. has somebody informations about this book ?

 

[Akaikaze]

'nuff said, Ha!
Delta aerodynamics was booty, disseminated by RAE, NACA/US, ONÉRA/France. M.Dassault taunted: “If it were not for the clumsy way (UK) tackle things, you could have made (it.)” J.Gee,Mirage,71,MacDonald: he alluded to FD.2, seen at Cazaux, departing 2 days before rollout of 1st. Mirage III. This super thread shows its lineage was not from Fairey, but M.D.550, inspired by Lippisch. Its ATAR was derived from BMW 003. If AMD picked any brains they were German...but they didn't. ONÉRA based a multi-role platform on a delta; everyone else saw as many problems as benefits from this layout. AMD was then so pro-active, Customer-friendly, as to win RAAF and dissuade them from an Avon fit. That is why UK commentators try to take vicarious credit for this fine, French product range.

:-\.... The MD550 first flew a year (1955) after the FD2 (1954). And the FD2 has always been regarded as the model for the MD550, down to the planform and even size (a big giveaway). Marcel Dassault's taunt was aimed at the fact that he had managed to use their(the British) information and design and come up with a successful aircraft while they threw it away. He knew they came up with it first and yet he got the most out of it. Lippisch may have been a starting point, but overall the FD2 design dictated the final form. About the only item that marks Lippisch's involvement was the tail. How else could they design and fly such an aircraft in less than two years? :-\

 

[Archibald]

Don't know if this help, but the Mirage development started in 1951. At the beginning, it was a Mystere IV with a delta wing, not more! Project was refined between 1951 and 1954...

 

[Jemiba]

From Boxkite I got several scans from Carlier/Berger "Dassault - 50 Years Of Aeronautical
Adventure 1945 - 1995", one of them showing a Delta Mystere project from 1952 .

 

[Akaikaze]

Don't know if this help, but the Mirage development started in 1951. At the beginning, it was a Mystere IV with a delta wing, not more! Project was refined between 1951 and 1954...

And designed for a 1954 requirement, about the same time as the FD2's introduction. Regardless of the previous work, it can be concluded that over time the FD2 design was more appealing and used it as a model, Dassault putting their own elements in as secondary features. Clever, actually. Like I said, similar size, similar perfromance. And I doubt by accident. Russia wasn't the only one who copied designs...

 

[Archibald]

Like I said, similar size, similar perfromance. And I doubt by accident. Russia wasn't the only one who copied designs...

you're right, there was a dropping nose on the Mirage III, but it was never use and fixed in the end. ;D
and MiG-15 was a copy of the F-86, the spitfire was also a copy of the 109...

 

[elmayerle]

Like I said, similar size, similar perfromance. And I doubt by accident. Russia wasn't the only one who copied designs...

you're right, there was a dropping nose on the Mirage III, but it was never use and fixed in the end. ;D
and MiG-15 was a copy of the F-86, the spitfire was also a copy of the 109...

Actually, a good arguement could be made that both the Sptifire and the Bf109 were inspired by the He70.

 

[Deltafan]

Hi ! Good news on aeroforum ;D :

de Jean MOLVEAU (07/02/2007 18:31:45)

Je réponds ici en tant que coauteur avec Pierre Gaillard du futur
ouvrage sur les projets et réalisations de Nicolas-Roland Payen.
S'il n'est pas encore paru, c'est tout simplement qu'il n'est pas fini
et que nos emplois du temps sont respectivement assez chargés...
En tout cas, merci de votre impatience, qui j'espère, sera
récompensée dans quelques temps.

Jean Molveau scripts with Pierre Gaillard the book about Payen's projects and planes.
The book is not available because it is not finished.

The question is always when ? :'(

 

[Jemiba]

Well, I think, the most renowned symphony written by
Franz Schubert is the "Unvollendete" (the unfinished).
Is this really a reason for optimism ? ;D

 

[Deltafan]

Maybe not :'(, but about the Payen's X-fighters (and others planes) files it's a new hope

I want to believe ;D