Ukrainian Patriot SAM operational/technical discussions

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I tried to plot a "Patriot shield" if batteries were emplaced on Poland, Romania and Moldava borders with Ukraine (nota bene: Hungary and Slovakia are not bringing much to the shield, plus their, eeeerh, politics - forget it).
I used this tool to plot flying distances https://www.distance.to/
Then I used Wikipedia (probably optimistic and best case) 160 km range value

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What you describe would mean shooting at Russian military assets from the territory of Poland, Romania or Moldova.
Imagine they succeed and down, say, a few Su-24 or Su-34.
Better be prepared to seriously defend those launchers and their support infrastructure.

Why not just keep giving SAMs to the Ukrainians, who have been doing a rather good job of operating them themselves? and they can position them more forward and cover more area.
 
It was mostly a "geographical" exercise but - I agree with you about the "politics" of such move. You hit the nail square on the head.
I mean: NATO killing Russian crews... ugh. Big risk of escalation. And since both sides have nukes... would be playing with fire.

I wonder whether a "red line" could be traced: between unmanned and manned strike vehicles (drone / cruise - ballistic missiles vs aircraft).
But the risk of confusion would be high - and then back to square one: ooops, NATO killed a russian crew. You can bet that Vlad would be cynically overjoyed if that happened...
 
It was mostly a "geographical" exercise but - I agree with you about the "politics" of such move. You hit the nail square on the head.
I mean: NATO killing Russian crews... ugh. Big risk of escalation. And since both sides have nukes... would be playing with fire.

I wonder whether a "red line" could be traced: between unmanned and manned strike vehicles (drone / cruise - ballistic missiles vs aircraft).
But the risk of confusion would be high - and then back to square one: ooops, NATO killed a russian crew. You can bet that Vlad would be cynically overjoyed if that happened...
I don't really buy the escalation threat. Putin just keeps threatening it to protect his presidency and hence himself. And I think if Putin keeps advancing west NATO involvement will happen eventually anyway.
 
Russians have an expression: "answer for your words." If a person's words do not match his deeds, then such a character is not taken seriously and is considered a clown. Therefore, it would be more correct to listen to what the Kremlin says.
The Kremlin doesn’t unduly worry me. Putin should be well aware that he can’t count on a conventional “flexible response” to any direct attack on NATO. An immediate full on strategic response is more likely now than during the Cold War or any other point in history. Putin isn’t going to be dealing with the slow cognitive decline of Reagan or the relative emotional stability of a Nixon or the comparative “intelligence” of George W. Bush. For Putin, it really doesn’t matter who gets elected or re-elected to the Oval Office. He should fear both of them.
 
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What you describe would mean shooting at Russian military assets from the territory of Poland, Romania or Moldova.
Imagine they succeed and down, say, a few Su-24 or Su-34.
Better be prepared to seriously defend those launchers and their support infrastructure.

Why not just keep giving SAMs to the Ukrainians, who have been doing a rather good job of operating them themselves? and they can position them more forward and cover more area.
I would generally assume a continuation of the status quo, with no pressing need for direct intervention from NATO territory. The ongoing war has started to mirror the Iran-Iraq War, with the no real existential threat to either side but it continues because of mutual intransigence. There’s nothing left to be won or lost, except the lives of the participants. I don’t see any chance of a Brusilov Offensive or an Operation Bagration. The other side isn’t going on to march on Moscow like Piłsudski or even Denikin.

There is apparently enough capacity to supply SAMs and shells to keep the war going ad infinitum. The political aspect will become difficult eventually. It took over a decade of protests for congress to effectively cancel support for South Vietnam and nearly 2 decades of increasing indifference for Afghanistan. Food for thought for both sides.

As a taxpayer, it would be nice to see second and third tier systems supplant something like Patriot in Ukraine, with the serious funding reserved for higher end successor systems for American and only trusted and established allied forces. Looking back, the Low Cost Interceptor would have been an ideal solution to a proxy conflict where the greatest risk is in having truly sensitive technologies fall into the hands of the enemy
 
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I would generally assume a continuation of the status quo, with no pressing need for direct intervention from NATO territory. The ongoing war has started to mirror the Iran-Iraq War, with the no real existential threat to either side but it continues because of mutual intransigence. There’s nothing left to be won or lost, except the lives of the participants. I don’t see any chance of a Brusilov Offensive or an Operation Bagration. The other side isn’t going on to march on Moscow like Piłsudski or even Denikin.

There is apparently enough capacity to supply SAMs and shells to keep the war going ad infinitum. The political aspect will become difficult eventually. It took over a decade of protests for congress to effectively cancel support for South Vietnam and nearly 2 decades of increasing indifference for Afghanistan. Food for thought for both sides.
The difference is that I expect the Russians to realize that their materiel losses at the current level of conflict are unsustainable, and start rolling out the strategic bombers (for their big jammers if nothing else) and significantly more troops.

Do you lose 1000 tanks a year for the next 10 years, or do you lose 2000 tanks in a single battle?
 
Russians have an expression: "answer for your words." If a person's words do not match his deeds, then such a character is not taken seriously and is considered a clown. Therefore, it would be more correct to listen to what the Kremlin says.
Like when they said they weren't going to invade Ukraine? Or when they said they didn't have troops in the Donbass from 2014-2022? Or when they said ATACMS was a red line, or fighter jets, or tanks for that matter? Or when they signed a treaty guaranteeing the sovereignty of Ukraine perhaps? It's more a case that one should take their words, invert them, and then listen.

Deterrents don't fundamentally work in attack, because if they did, nobody would be able to defend anything anywhere.
 
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The difference is that I expect the Russians to realize that their materiel losses at the current level of conflict are unsustainable, and start rolling out the strategic bombers (for their big jammers if nothing else) and significantly more troops.

Do you lose 1000 tanks a year for the next 10 years, or do you lose 2000 tanks in a single battle?
I don’t think either side has the logistics, leadership or ideological motivation to get 2,000 tanks operable and operational at same time, in the same place. Zhukov was working with tremendous organizational advantages in WWII compared to today. The societal decay on both sides isn’t quite so obvious when it comes to operating systems like Patriot missile batteries. However, for something requiring coordination liked massed armor or coherent efforts at SEAD or air superiority, there is no fundamental capability on either side.
 
Was going to make a large geopolitics posts but I will not. I will only say that some might disagree with the idea forever war between Ukraine and Russia, and discussions of nuclear red lines and how Russia needs to be brought to heel. Not everyone here aligns with the European centrist or here the neocon/neolib geopolitical line of thinking.
 
Was going to make a large geopolitics posts but I will not. I will only say that some might disagree with the idea forever war between Ukraine and Russia, and discussions of nuclear red lines and how Russia needs to be brought to heel. Not everyone here aligns with the European centrist or here the neocon/neolib geopolitical line of thinking.
Or the 18th-century-style imperial annexation of other countries line of thinking. :rolleyes:
 
View: https://x.com/WarVehicle/status/1809615822610129086

Air Force Commander Oleschuk said that in Odesa and Dnipropetrovsk regions, Russians were deceived by using models. "Dolhintseve Airfield (Kryvyi RiG - 3.07) and Yuzhnoe district (Odeszine - 6.07) - Air Force personnel successfully conducted passive defense measures! Thanks to everyone who helps with quality models of aircraft and air defense systems. The enemy has fewer "Iskanders", and the mock-ups will still be delivered." However, this does not remove the problems of Russian reconnaissance drones. They can and should be shot down using the latest approaches. And I hope that the commander will contribute to this as much as possible.
View: https://x.com/sternenko/status/1809637071620907225
 
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I just stumbled across this interesting video about maintaining ageing Patriot systems, I think this is the appropriate thread for it:


When aging missiles need replacement parts, the military turns to the Letterkenny Army Depot. Go inside to see how they do it.
 
Kyiv is the only well defended area and 95% of missiles/drones sent there end up shot down including Kinzhals and Zircons. Kh-22s hit a shopping mall in Kyiv pre-Patriot, but since Patriot Kh-22s seem to have been directed elsewhere. If Kh-22s would work, they wouldn't use Zircons on Kyiv.

The very same Patriot SAM system that had a below 10% chance of a successful intercept of SCUDs during Desert Storm? Sounds really far fetched, if not borderline fictional, especially when Patriot batteries have been taken out by Iskander-Ms directly on video. Especially when one considers that it's unlikely that Ukraine operates the true top of the line Patriot system with crews not comparable to that of US troops.

As for Zircon deployment, that's a pretty easy answer, weapon testing under combat conditions. And what location is more perfect for such a test than Kiev?
 
The very same Patriot SAM system that had a below 10% chance of a successful intercept of SCUDs during Desert Storm? Sounds really far fetched, if not borderline fictional, especially when Patriot batteries have been taken out by Iskander-Ms directly on video. Especially when one considers that it's unlikely that Ukraine operates the true top of the line Patriot system with crews not comparable to that of US troops.

As for Zircon deployment, that's a pretty easy answer, weapon testing under combat conditions. And what location is more perfect for such a test than Kiev?
The only parts of the Patriot system that are still shared with the Desert Storm version are the trailer frames that the missile launchers bolt onto.
 
The only parts of the Patriot system that are still shared with the Desert Storm version are the trailer frames that the missile launchers bolt onto.
Also, the Patriots back then were the earliest models with none of the addon ABM tricks that were envisioned for but never implemented because of the ABM treaty, but all the tidbits were there and just need someone to call up Raytheon (see HAWK which could do grazing hits against the Sergeants and Lance TBMs).
 
The very same Patriot SAM system that had a below 10% chance of a successful intercept of SCUDs during Desert Storm?
Actually the modern PAC-3 PATRIOT is quite a different system from the PAC-1/2 that were used during Desert Storm. The old PAC-1/2 were essentially anti-aircraft missiles, with some additional anti-ballistic capability. They weren't maneuverable enough to reliably hit the warhead, their fragmentation-type charges performed poorly against warheads, and their fuzes were proven to be too slow-acting for the 3+ km/s closing velocities against ballistic targets.

The PAC-3 is a completely new missile; much smaller, much more agile (it uses a set of 180 single-pulse rocket motors for high-g maneuvering), with active homing and kinetic hit-to-kill warhead (with 24 tungsten slugs - lethality enchancers - being deployed just before impact in case of last-millisecond miss).

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And there are also upgrades within each PAC, like PAC-3 MSE, PAC-2 GEM-T. Desert Storm only used a rushed version of PAC-1.
Actually those were PAC-2 (MIM-104C) with improved software and modified warhead to better work on ballistic targets (increased fragments size, new fast-reaction fuze). They performed worse than expected, due to fragmentation warheads limitations and fuze not being fast-reacting enough (as well as software bugs due to rushed deployment).
 
Actually those were PAC-2 (MIM-104C) with improved software and modified warhead to better work on ballistic targets (increased fragments size, new fast-reaction fuze). They performed worse than expected, due to fragmentation warheads limitations and fuze not being fast-reacting enough (as well as software bugs due to rushed deployment).
Turns out they were both PAC-1 and PAC-2:

During Operation Desert Storm (ODS) in 1991, PAC-1 and PAC-2 systems were used against Iraqi "Al-Hussein" (modified SS-1 Scud) SRBMs. In most of the ODS engagements, two missiles were automatically fired at an incoming target. The success rate was not bad, but not as overwhelmingly good as the first reports suggested.
 
It wasn't 10% and you don't think they've made updates in the last 3 decades? It's like saying an S-500 is an S-300.
True, it was possibly even less




> Today I would like to describe the results of recent technical studies I have performed using unclassified videotapes of Patriots attempting to intercept Scud warheads. The results of these studies are disturbing. They suggest that Patriot's intercept rate during the Gulf War was very low. The evidence from these preliminary studies indicate that Patriot's intercept rate could be much lower than 10 percent, possibly even zero. That such a conclusion can be reached from press video, which is a very crude tool by scientific standards, is disturbing. One would not anticipate that press video would have adequate space or time resolution to reach such a conclusion. However, as I will show you during the course of my presentation, most of the Patriot miss distances are so large that even press video is able to provide unambiguous evidence of misses.

The matter of fact is that the Patriot, similar to S-400 and comparable systems, is incredibly poorly suited for dealing with Ballistic missiles. Which is evidenced by the simple fact that ballistic missiles are not only utilized to dismantle SAM systems in Ukraine, but also because large scale Russian drone, cruise and ballistic missile attacks generally meet little opposition aside from AA fire against Geraniums and the likes before the Kh-101s, Kh-59, Kh-69, Kh-22s, Kh-47s and Iskanders come in.

And while the quality of Ukrainian personell most likely plays a part in the overall underwhelming performance, I think it's still clear as day that Patriot struggles with taking on ballistic missiles.
 
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True, it was possibly even less




> Today I would like to describe the results of recent technical studies I have performed using unclassified videotapes of Patriots attempting to intercept Scud warheads. The results of these studies are disturbing. They suggest that Patriot's intercept rate during the Gulf War was very low. The evidence from these preliminary studies indicate that Patriot's intercept rate could be much lower than 10 percent, possibly even zero. That such a conclusion can be reached from press video, which is a very crude tool by scientific standards, is disturbing. One would not anticipate that press video would have adequate space or time resolution to reach such a conclusion. However, as I will show you during the course of my presentation, most of the Patriot miss distances are so large that even press video is able to provide unambiguous evidence of misses.

The matter of fact is that the Patriot, similar to S-400 and comparable systems, is incredibly poorly suited for dealing with Ballistic missiles. Which is evidenced by the simple fact that ballistic missiles are not only utilized to dismantle SAM systems in Ukraine, but also because large scale Russian drone, cruise and ballistic missile attacks generally meet little opposition aside from AA fire against Geraniums and the likes before the Kh-101s, Kh-59, Kh-69, Kh-22s, Kh-47s and Iskanders come in.

And while the poor quality of Ukrainian personell most likely plays a part in the overall underwhelming performance, I think it's still clear as day that Patriot struggles with taking on ballistic missiles.
The bigger problem was the damage caused by falling wreckage not intercept rate, a lot of analyses confuse falling wreckage with an unsuccessful intercept but actually it's evidence of the opposite. Equally there was confusion about whether deflections were successful intercepts or not. If aimed at a point target, then a deflection is a success. Many SCUD wreckages landed in the sea, making assessment difficult. Some Patriots were aimed at debris, sometimes more than one missile was fired at the same target. 59% were stopped from hitting the cities they were aimed at and the army had high confidence in 25% of the intercepts.


In the aftermath of the war, official Army performance statistics for thePatriot were revised downward in a series of stages: in March 1991 the overallsuccess rate was reported as 96%; in May 1991 as 69%; and in April 1992 as59%, the latter figure continuing as the official Department of Defense position on overall Patriot performance.

"The Iraqi modifications of the Scud B resulted in a missile that typicallybroke up during reentry, with the warhead section (warhead and possiblyattached portions of the missile body) followed by a stream of debris.7 One ormore of a number of factors could have contributed to this breakup: (i) the AIHussein's reentry velocity is considerably higher than that of the normal ScudB, and so the aerodynamic forces experienced by the modified missile aremuch greater; (ii) the increased length and lighter payload causes the centerof gravity of the missile to shift backward, making it less aerodynamically stable; and (iii) the AI Hussein may have reentered the atmosphere with a largeangle of attack (angle between the body symmetry axis and velocity vector), aconfiguration that leads to high lateral stresses on the missile body as aerodynamic forces build up.

9% only reflects the number where shrapnel damage was found in wreckage on land, this requires that a) it does not land in the sea and b) the missile doesn't explode completely mid-air. It could alse be argued that no SCUDs hit military targets, so 100% on that basis.
 
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