Ukrainian Patriot SAM operational/technical discussions

Firefinder said:
Ah but here the rub.

How many of thes KH22 attacks where targeted at or close to the System?

Remember that the Dagger shotdowns were Aimed AT the Patriot it self.

The Patriot WAS THE TARGET.

That is easy mode for any system.

The hardest mode is when you are trying to protect something AWAY and INFRONT of the system.

Which is why SOP is to put the system basically on or infront of the target to act as a goalie.


So say the Russian Target was 25 miles infront of the radar?

The Radar Time to engage is cut in half. And that time is cut even more every bit more the target away. Thats before you take into account the Interceptors Travel time.

Cause the SAM systems like Aegis Patriot or even the S300 do not have uniform performance.

They have LAYERS OF PERFORMANCE.

Ranging from killing everything in a 10 miles radius to only able to kill high flying planes at 100.

And we not seeing where the KH22 are hitting in relation to the Patriot.

If these things are hitting 45 miles away infront the system?

AKA well within the Radar Sight but outside of the Interceptors Killzone for the Missile

Sorry nothing be able stop that short of prestaging weapons there. Perferable with their own sensors or another system.

Physics among other issues make it so.

Now if its behind the system then we can talk bout performance. But infront of it?

Well thats the hardest engagement set up for Interceptors.
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So Patriot is a failure because they only targeted areas where Patriot wouldn't be able to make an intercept? Got it.
 
Forest Green said:
How is a Kh-22 intercept significantly different to an SR-71 intercept?
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It would be easier than a Blackbird intercept. 1. It's coasting by the time it's in the target area. 2. It can't maneuver intelligently. 3. No way in HELL it's going as fast as some of the fanboi claims up the page.

 
MihoshiK said:
The problem is simply that Ukraine only has a few Patriot batteries, not nearly enough to cover the entire country. So yeah, if Russia keeps firing Kh-22 at places where Patriot ain't, it's not going to shoot down any. Like, duh.
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But, but, that means Patriot is terrible. Because, you know, it's forcing the enemy to target undefended areas. Because THOSE are the important areas. Or something.
 
sferrin said:
Given the Kh-22 Kitchen has been in the target set for half a century, the notion the US would have a a problem with it is a stretch. If you had to pick the #1 target Aegis was designed to defeat it would be the AS-4. The AQM-37C was the simulator for that. Against missiles, PAC-3 is more capable still. Kh-22 is MUCH slower than either Iskander or Kinzhal.
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I’ve no doubt the USN is well prepared. Ukraine probably less so. It certainly is an energetic target anyway you cut it. Ships have the advantage of collocating the SAM with the target.
 
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As to Patriot vs high speed targets: it is probably effective inside very tight envelopes. Its experience three decades ago probably isn’t predictive of the effectiveness of current systems and missiles, but physics is going to make its engagement envelope against high Mach targets very small.
 
Josh_TN said:
As to Patriot vs high speed targets: it is probably effective inside very tight envelopes. Its experience three decades ago probably isn’t predictive of the effectiveness of current systems and missiles, but physics is going to make its engagement envelope against high Mach targets very small.
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There was a study for intercepting HGVs that I got from this forum, gave a ~12km radius from the launcher that was protected.
 
t.me

Осташко! Важное

Кадры, предположительно, прилета «Кинжала» по объекту ВСУ в Киеве Момент удара попал на камеру местной жительницы. Киевский режим тем временем врет заявляет, что были сбиты все «Кинжалы».
t.me t.me
 

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Scott Kenny said:
Knows when it's being shot at so turns into a maneuvering target, and has some pretty sophisticated defensive ECM installed.

Blackbird has been retired since 1998, and the DECM systems are still classified.
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Right, so it's harder to shoot down an SR-71 than a Kh-22, and yet an SR-71 has been deemed too vulnerable in the modern climate.
 
paralay said:
t.me

Осташко! Важное

Кадры, предположительно, прилета «Кинжала» по объекту ВСУ в Киеве Момент удара попал на камеру местной жительницы. Киевский режим тем временем врет заявляет, что были сбиты все «Кинжалы».
t.me t.me
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I though the Kinzhal releases the warhead before impact. That was too long to be just a warhead. Looked very slow too, also no secondaries.

I also thought only test articles were painted orange???
 
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That kinzhal strike video is impressive. Would be a challenge even for the newest sam/abm systems to take one down I would bet.

And kh-22 missiles can have very fast terminal speeds. I think there are a couple kinds of trajectories they can take. The higher altitude and steep dive supposedly gets it going up to high mach 3 near the end. From what I have seen of kh-22 land attacks from the videos it is doing a slower and shallower dive.
 
TMA1 said:
That kinzhal strike video is impressive. Would be a challenge even for the newest sam/abm systems to take one down I would bet.
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Patriot has already done so, numerous times.

TMA1 said:
And kh-22 missiles can have very fast terminal speeds. I think there are a couple kinds of trajectories they can take. The higher altitude and steep dive supposedly gets it going up to high mach 3 near the end. From what I have seen of kh-22 land attacks from the videos it is doing a slower and shallower dive.
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Still slower than Iskander or Kinzhal. Easier to hit.
 
I still think Kinzhal is a very good system.
1- Currently the longest range air to ground missile that can be carried by a tactical aircraft (not a massive bomber)
2- Currently the fastest air to ground missile in production. Much faster than even future ARRW, HACM. Literally have no equal
3- The only air to ground missile that known to carry jamming decoy. It basically doing what MALD-J and future Spear-ew are designed to do.
 
Eh... Watch the recent videos. The kinzhals are no joke. Also apparently with this attack Russia has hacked into Ukrainian camera systems to show supposed missile impacts. I think part of this is to undermine supposed successful take down numbers given by Ukraine.

In this conflict I dont trust anybody's numbers. Kinzhals have been taken out, but the fog of war and intentional as well as mistaken disinfo is still thick. Just my opinion and I could be wrong and a majority have indeed been taken out. I guess we will see as time passes.

Edit: added extra thought
 
sferrin said:
Patriot has already done so, numerous times.
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It seems likely at least a couple were downed, but there is little proof to support the large Ukrainian claims. I doubt we’ll ever know the real numbers.

sferrin said:
Still slower than Iskander or Kinzhal. Easier to hit.
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I think that would be range dependent - AFAIK is a single stage, single pulse, and coasts after burnout. Velocities at long ranges must be far less than top bunout speed. Kh-22 should at least maintain a constant velocity throughout.
 
TMA1 said:
That kinzhal strike video is impressive.
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But why is an operationally deployed missile painted orange? And why is it a different colour to all the other operationally deployed Kinzhals? Is this a special 'rudeboy' version or something?

Have any Kh-22s hit Kyiv since Patriot was deployed?
 
I saw no orange paint but a streak of fire and explosion immediately after. Which video are you referring to?
 
TMA1 said:
I saw no orange paint but a streak of fire and explosion immediately after. Which video are you referring to?
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t.me

Осташко! Важное

Кадры, предположительно, прилета «Кинжала» по объекту ВСУ в Киеве Момент удара попал на камеру местной жительницы. Киевский режим тем временем врет заявляет, что были сбиты все «Кинжалы».
t.me t.me
 
Another example of the advantage of short time-of-flight weapons. They could have just stopped to change a tire or something and *BOOM*.
 
Not trying to be funny, but I see nothing identifiable as a Patriot launcher in either of those two posts. In the IR image, they're listed as 'C-300', which is S-300 if my Russian is correct. It also surprises me that Ukraine would have that many SAM launchers of any type that close together. There was previously this incorrect claim recently also. You need a full colour video to make a proper claim.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p7jB78ptH0

https://twitter.com/x/status/1766495667248095742
View: https://x.com/BilboBagginsBut/status/1766495667248095742?s=20

en.wikipedia.org

MAN KAT1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

RMMV HX range of tactical trucks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

https://twitter.com/x/status/1766498231234502934
View: https://x.com/BilboBagginsBut/status/1766498231234502934?s=20
 
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Plus I dont see anything that looks like the radar vehicle.

Thats the important bit of the Patriot Battery. You can command it out of the back of a pickup if you got the right gear and willing to rough it. While the launchers are glorified generator hydraulic lifters deals, or dumptrucks for the S300s.

Those can be replace too easily by Ukraine itself if allowed.

But the Radar? Oh the radar is the heart and brain which if you loss...

Well the launchers aint launching shit.


Also see the idea that it was an IRST launcher, which while not as valuable...

It still a very important piece of kit.

What ever it is its a painful loss thru.
 
That was a single TEL trailer. The most expandable part of the system.

While the two Boxes where modified ANTPQ-37 Firefinder Radar ATGs with different anteana faces and lacking the tracks of the later versions. But I am 90 percent sure that the faces where in the pallet pile we seen infront of the plance while the faces on the main chasis was a transport one for use on the Antonovs strange tail crane deal.
 
6 billion is long term funding to make weapons from scratch. That package includes various weapons, dome of which are patriot weapons.

1 bilion aid announced a few days earlier is immediate help, coming from US stocks.
While patriot missiles are not mentioned in that package aid list, i guess it's not impossible thise were deliberately left unmentioned. There is precedent with other systems which were given under the radar first and disclosed only later on.
Then again, patriot missiles would be only a top up of known missile stocks...

But its kinda bewildering to think that no extra patriot missiles are being rushed to ukraine. I see zero logic to such a move.
 
Ukraine urgently requires more Patriot systems now to defend its power supply system which Russia has been successsfully targeting for months almost daily.

Breaking Defense
Austin said the $6 billion pledge demonstrated “America’s enduring commitment to Ukraine’s defense. All equipment is to be ordered from industry, not drawn from US stocks — meaning it could take years for the weapons to arrive in Ukraine.
But he admitted that despite Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s plea for international supply partners to provide seven Patriot systems, the US-led Ukraine Defense Contact Group, which met virtually today on the second anniversary of its first meeting, did not reach an agreement to satisfied such demand.
“In terms of Patriots, and what they [other nations] might be able to do going forward is left to be seen, but I can tell you that we continue to work on this and in a very earnest manner,” said Austin. “All the countries that have Patriots certainly value that capability, but I think going forward, we’ll be able to, hopefully work with a number of countries to put together additional Patriot capability.”
His comments come after reports emerged this week that Spain and Greece have both ruled out transferring the Raytheon- and Lockheed Martin-made air defense system to Ukraine, as Kyiv continues to suffer attacks against critical infrastructure.
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www.france24.com

Russian missiles strike four Ukrainian thermal power stations

Russia launched a barrage of missiles at Ukrainian power facilities on Saturday, hitting locations in the centre and west of the country, damaging equipment and injuring at least one energy worker, officials…
www.france24.com www.france24.com
 

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