Ukrainian Air Force F-16

[Forest Green]

Wonder if they've issued APKWS pods for the drones?

 

[NMaude]

Wonder if they've issued APKWS pods for the drones?

It would be good if the new F-16s could be issued with laser-designator pods so that they can use the APKWS, between that and its' internal M61 Vulcan cannon it should be able to take care of drones such as the Shaheed 136.

 

[Forest Green]

It would be good if the new F-16s could be issued with laser-designator pods so that they can use the APKWS, between that and its' internal M61 Vulcan cannon it should be able to take care of drones such as the Shaheed 136.

The M61 would not be a good idea, as well as the increased risk of collision with the drone, there's also the certainty that not all those SAPHEI 20mm rounds are going to hit the traget and those that miss will hit the ground and things on the ground unless over the sea.

 

[yahya]

Interesting discussion. I wonder if the MLUed F-16A were again updated before giving them away to UAF? An IFF update would be a usual suspect.

Some old F-16 MLU manuals claim that the MLUed jets were LANTIRN capable (AGM-65D/G etc.), and that the helmet mounted sight was rather the Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS) on a modified HGU-55P helmet shell. It employed an old-fashioned CRT just like the very old TV sets.

Some sources on sm claim that the UAF F-16s are based in Romania to prevent them being destroyed by Russian forces. That would explain a nearby overflight over Odessa a few days ago.

 

[Ainen]

It would be good if the new F-16s could be issued with laser-designator pods so that they can use the APKWS, between that and its' internal M61 Vulcan cannon it should be able to take care of drones such as the Shaheed 136.

I assume main problem for f-16 MLU isn't how to kill a shahed, it's that an/apg-66 isn't good enough for the task.
I.e. final detection time problem, not a number of shots or a price one.

Some sources on sm claim that the UAF F-16s are based in Romania to prevent them being destroyed by Russian forces. That would explain a nearby overflight over Odessa a few days ago.

Jets based outside of Ukraine are likely to be training/replacement pool only.
Operations from Romanian soil would be an extreme breach of neutrality.

 

[yahya]

Jets based outside of Ukraine are likely to be training/replacement pool only.
Operations from Romanian soil would be an extreme breach of neutrality.

Indeed. That would be equal to skating on thin ice.

By the way, what was the primary nav system of MLUed F-16s? Was that INS assisted by GPS, with the Terrain Referenced Navigation (TRN)? The MLU manual also mentioned TACAN, but I have no idea if there are enough TACAN ground stations in Ukraine.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I cannot see that bothering the Poles.

 

[yahya]

It wouldn't be surprising if these jets were transferred via that country to Ukraine.

 

[timmymagic]

These F-16s will essentially function as airborne NASAMS batteries except for also launching CMs against the Russians.

They're not going to be launching cruise missiles unless the US supplies JASSM, which so far it has shown no interest in doing....

The Mirage 2000 from France may have a greater potential there as they could/should be able to fire Storm Shadow and take some pressure off SU-24 (truth be told Storm Shadow supplies will be increasingly limited though). The Mirage also have the ability to carry Exocet...which would need to be supplied, but if it was would effectively finalise the removal of the Black Sea Fleet from any operations in the Western, or even the Central, Black Sea...admittedly the Ukrainian USV's have already done this but it would definitely drive it home...

 

[kqcke for you]

They're not going to be launching cruise missiles unless the US supplies JASSM, which so far it has shown no interest in doing....

Well maybe if someone is kind enough for it then they could have some SLAM-ER

 

[NMaude]

The M61 would not be a good idea, as well as the increased risk of collision with the drone, there's also the certainty that not all those SAPHEI 20mm rounds are going to hit the traget and those that miss will hit the ground and things on the ground unless over the sea.

I doubt the F-16 would try to do a direct astern tail-chase gun intercept but instead coming in at an angle or a beam intercept to avoid being hit by debris the target. As for cannon-rounds missing striking into the ground that's a hazard of war also a 2.75" APKWS missile if misses will cause similar problems, however I think that a skilled pilot would very likely minimise problems with such an intercept.

I assume main problem for f-16 MLU isn't how to kill a shahed, it's that an/apg-66 isn't good enough for the task.
I.e. final detection time problem, not a number of shots or a price one.

The F-16 MLU upgraded its' AN/APG-66 to the AN/APG-66(V)2A:

• APG-66(V)2A – AN/APG-66(V)2 with a new combined signal and data processor that provides seven times the speed and 20 times the memory of the older radar computer and digital signal processor line replaceable units. In this new variant, the displayed resolution in ground-mapping mode is quadrupled, and is reported to be close to that offered by SARtechniques. Used for modernization of F-16A/B fleet of Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Portugal and the Netherlands in the mid-1990s.

I won't be surprised if both the fire-control radar hardware has had further upgrades and then of course there have been constant software upgrades at regular intervals. I don't think that one of the F-16AMs or F-16BMs will have any trouble intercepting a Shaheed 136 drone.

 

[Ainen]

I won't be surprised if both the fire-control radar hardware has had further upgrades and then of course there have been constant software upgrades at regular intervals. I don't think that one of the F-16AMs or F-16BMs will have any trouble intercepting a Shaheed 136 drone.

Iirc the reason behind f-16v procurement for ANG was that a much more capable an/apg-68 set doesn't really hold up against those small targets, be it turbojet or propeller-driven cruise missiles.

An/apg-66 with a new (1990s) signal processor is still a incomplete 1990s PD radar against a near-stealth target.

With a targeting pod it's probably going to be overall better than Ukrainian Soviet jets without digital radar and very dumb irst processor, but that's a very low bar.

 

[Ronny]

I don't think these F-16 would be very useful for air to air combat given how old they are, but they possibly very useful in air to surface role if they can somehow put ATACMS on them

 

[Forest Green]

I doubt the F-16 would try to do a direct astern tail-chase gun intercept but instead coming in at an angle or a beam intercept to avoid being hit by debris the target. As for cannon-rounds missing striking into the ground that's a hazard of war also a 2.75" APKWS missile if misses will cause similar problems, however I think that a skilled pilot would very likely minimise problems with such an intercept.

https://tsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/TSC-Fuze-Press-Release-20230525.pdf

TSC’s sensor is integrated into an L3Harris-developed proximity fuze to enable BAE Systems’ APKWS® laserguided weapons to be fired from any Hydra 70 launcher, including integration into L3Harris’ VAMPIRE™ multipurpose weapons system for C-UAS.

The fuze also includes a Height of Burst (HOB) mode...

 

[AGS-1787]

I don't think these F-16 would be very useful for air to air combat given how old they are, but they possibly very useful in air to surface role if they can somehow put ATACMS on them

Why not the have AMRAMs?

 

[yahya]

Lest we forget that the original MLU is AGM-88 HARM capable when LAP and ALIC are present.

 

[NMaude]

I don't think these F-16 would be very useful for air to air combat given how old they are, but they possibly very useful in air to surface role if they can somehow put ATACMS on them

While these F-16s are old they've received rounds of hardware and software upgrades since they were built and they're quite capable of air-to-air combat however what they're likely to be initially for is to intercept and shoot down Russian ballistic and cruise missiles along with drones such as the Shaheed 136.

 

[Ronny]

Why not the have AMRAMs?

Because it is a waste, F-16AM with APG-66v2 and AIM-120B won't be a match against Su-35S and Mig-31 with R-37 + A-50 support

While these F-16s are old they've received rounds of hardware and software upgrades since they were built and they're quite capable of air-to-air combat

I honestly think they will be fish a barrel, APG-66 is ancient compared to Irbis-E, much much shorter detection range.
AIM-120B is ancient compared to R-37

 

[Ainen]

Because it is a waste, F-16AM with APG-66v2 and AIM-120B won't be a match against Su-35S and Mig-31 with R-37 + A-50 support

Can work against su-34 raids, there are dozens of them everyday, timing an intercept is possible.

As far as I understand，Ukrainians did successful intercept flights early in the war, forcing fights and even wvrs. It just was a pointless sacrifice due to technological/training gap.

F-16 doesn't need to match much later su-35, it needs to overcome largest pitfall in capabilities dividing two aircraft, developments of the 1990s. F-16A MLU checks all the boxes - digital radar with a proper interface, active missile, datalink(maybe starlink even), digital ew.

Lack of success in 2022 ultimately was a technical issue, not because they didn't try. Now they can try again, with a much better vehicle. Will it be enough, especially over static front infested by uav/islander pairs and sam coverage - time will tell.

 

[NMaude]

I honestly think they will be fish a barrel, APG-66 is ancient compared to Irbis-E, much much shorter detection range.

As it has been pointed out several times upthread those AN/APG-66s have had significant hardware and software upgrades since those particular F-16A/Bs were manufactured it also doesn't preclude them from getting new fire-control radar systems that are available, also keep in mind those F-16s won't be operating on their own.

AIM-120B is ancient compared to R-37

If they haven't got them already Ukraine will almost certainly be getting AIM-120Cs and probably AIM-120Ds as for the AA-13 Axehead from what I've read it has not been used to proper effect in Ukraine and an intact unexploded example was found by the Ukrainians in February 2023 and past on to western technical experts for analysis so the ECM gear the new F-16s that Ukraine is getting will almost certainly be calibrated to deal with an AA-13

won't be a match against Su-35S and Mig-31 with R-37 + A-50 support

In regards to those aircraft and the AA-13 I can see the US giving Ukraine a handful of AIM-174Bs to take out those aircraft especially the A-50 (And its' accompanying Il-22M airborne command post) as Russia only has a handful of those aircraft plus the MiG-31s as all threat aircraft are long out of production and can't be replaced if they're destroyed or damaged beyond repair.

 

[Ainen]

If they haven't got them already Ukraine will almost certainly be getting AIM-120Cs and probably AIM-120Ds as for the AA-13 Axehead from what I've read it has not been used to proper effect in Ukraine and an intact unexploded example was found by the Ukrainians in February 2023 and past on to western technical experts for analysis so the ECM gear the new F-16s that Ukraine is getting will almost certainly be calibrated to deal with an AA-13

All of them are 'calibrated' against each other, it's a constant process and I wouldn't read too deep into it; an/alq-213 isn't the most capable ew suit out there either. Those exposures ultimately matter for first week advantage.
If anything, amraam itself (other than D model with it's important - and probably jammable! - datalink) is quite an exposed weapon itself.
AA-13, on the other hand, remains as the most influential a2a missile of the war(a war where fighters are quite secondary beings in the first place), despite that dud.

In regards to those aircraft and the AA-13 I can see the US giving Ukraine a handful of AIM-174Bs to take out those aircraft especially the A-50 (And its' accompanying Il-22M airborne command post) as Russia only has a handful of those aircraft

May as well send them directly to Beijing.

First week advantage doesn't matter to Russia anymore, as it is in a critical conflict; any cool weapon, no matter how advanced, can be countered by organizational answer before any technical reply; R-37m is a perfect example - just time ops in a way to avoid meeting it and carefully control fighter maneuvers - and it's good.

For US, on the other hand, every single exposure comes at a cost of their first day advantage(s) on their main theatre. Both for them and their allies, who most often don't have money or touch to update compromised solutions fast enough.

Exposing aim-174b (urgent enabler) before there are even proper stocks of them(and provided an/apg-66 can even support such an engagement) - navy will be excited.

 

[Ronny]

As it has been pointed out several times upthread those AN/APG-66s have had significant hardware and software upgrades since those particular F-16A/Bs were manufactured it also doesn't preclude them from getting new fire-control radar systems that are available, also keep in mind those F-16s won't be operating on their own.

Even APG-68v9 is far cry from IRBIS-E level, to be somewhat competitive, these F-16 need APG-80 at the very list, but APG-80 require additional cooling which pretty much only available on F-16E/F

In regards to those aircraft and the AA-13 I can see the US giving Ukraine a handful of AIM-174Bs to take out those aircraft especially the A-50 (And its' accompanying Il-22M airborne command post) as Russia only has a handful of those aircraft plus the MiG-31s as all threat aircraft are long out of production and can't be replaced if they're destroyed or damaged beyond repair.

I think there are pretty much zero chance of US giving any AIM-174B to Ukraine, they aren't even willing to give AIM-120D let alone the air launched SM-6
Russia have somewhere like 500 Mig-31, and they lost like 3-4 in this war, I don't think it run out any time soon

 

[NMaude]

I think there are pretty much zero chance of US giving any AIM-174B to Ukraine

That may change if the US serious about Ukraine eliminating as many A-50s and Il-22Ms as possible.

they aren't even willing to give AIM-120D let alone the air launched SM-6

They will change their minds if they're serious about Ukraine being able to take out these threats.

Russia have somewhere like 500 Mig-31, and they lost like 3-4 in this war, I don't think it run out any time soon

No, the USSR produced 519 MiG-31s of all variants before production ended in 1993 and Russia only has a small fraction of those 519, IIRC a number of them were scrapped in the 1990s.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I'd actually rather expect Ukraine some how "acquiring" one of the new Gryphon systems, the containerized Mk41 canisters with RIM174s or Tomahawks. Patriot system has controlled SM6s before.

 

[Forest Green]

I think there are pretty much zero chance of US giving any AIM-174B to Ukraine, they aren't even willing to give AIM-120D let alone the air launched SM-6
Russia have somewhere like 500 Mig-31, and they lost like 3-4 in this war, I don't think it run out any time soon

Only has 526 fighters in a mission ready state in total right now.

2024 Russia Military Strength

Detailing the current military strength of Russia including air force, army, navy, financials and manpower.

www.globalfirepower.com

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Su-27 for sure. How about we return to the topic of F-16...

 

[NMaude]

How about we return to the topic of F-16...

How about what kind of possible hardware and/or software upgrades Ukraine's donated F-16s might get in the near future?

 

[Maro.Kyo]

How about what kind of possible hardware and/or software upgrades Ukraine's donated F-16s might get in the near future?

I can foresee some OFP updates but nothing really serious before the war ends.

 

[Forest Green]

F-16s Delivered To Ukraine With Advanced Countermeasure Pods For Self-Protection

Ukraine's F-16s came with additional self-protection features that will help them survive a very dangerous battlespace.

www.twz.com

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like these countermeasures pylons are supposed to retain some weapons capability too. I wonder why we haven't seen them fitted with another pair of AIM-9s or AIM-120s. Perhaps the UAF doesn't have as many air-to-air missiles as they'd like to have? Or they just think it's unlikely a pilot would use more than four in a sortie?

 

[eagle]

Those are A/G pylons fitted with ejector racks. While all the usual A/G stores can still be carried, no AAMs can.

 

[NMaude]

Perhaps the UAF doesn't have as many air-to-air missiles as they'd like to have? Or they just think it's unlikely a pilot would use more than four in a sortie?

The UAF won't any problems getting AIM-9s (Hopefully they'll be getting AIM-9Xs soon) or AIM-120s as NATO has a shit-load of them.

Alex Hollings from Sandboxx has just put out a video about Ukraine's new F-16s:

More than two years since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine began, F-16 Fighting Falcons have officially begun arriving in the country, marking what many hope will be a shift in the embattled nation’s air defense and air support capabilities.

Let's talk about what these aircraft are capable of, the weapons they'll bring to bear, and how their introduction to the conflict will affect ongoing disinformation campaigns.

Read our full coverage of this story on Sandboxx News: https://www.sandboxx.us/news/everythi...

 

[mkellytx]

Because it is a waste, F-16AM with APG-66v2 and AIM-120B won't be a match against Su-35S and Mig-31 with R-37 + A-50 support

Not that long ago I had the opportunity to sit next to a Viper driver for a 5-hour flight. Being a fellow aviator with green ink in my logbook we talked a bit of shop. The out sticked Mig-31 to Viper was one of the things I kind of shuddered about, but he calmly talked me through why it wasn't as big of a fear as I thought. Needless to say, I will NEVER discuss TTP here, but that mismatch is well thought through.

 

[Ainen]

They aren't that big of a problem even for old Soviet jets Ukraine operates - unless vks will decide to break in for a second DEAD "big week"; over a SAM stalemate, tactics alone negate losses to an acceptable level.

Problem is that while it isn't that big of a fear, there's little to be done here without accepting more losses - still in one-sided engagements.

It's honestly telling that over the Frontline area, the easiest (fighter) opponent f-16 can meet is su-35(!). Su-30sm don't operate near front lines anymore (though they drop bombs in Kursk, but that's an exception deeper in Russia), and other options are even worse.

 

[yahya]

Retired foreign pilots could fly Ukraine’s F-16s​

MSN

MSN

 

[Manuducati]

Interesting discussion. I wonder if the MLUed F-16A were again updated before giving them away to UAF? An IFF update would be a usual suspect.

Some old F-16 MLU manuals claim that the MLUed jets were LANTIRN capable (AGM-65D/G etc.), and that the helmet mounted sight was rather the Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS) on a modified HGU-55P helmet shell. It employed an old-fashioned CRT just like the very old TV sets.

The F-16 Mid-Life Update is an evolving process, with multiple "MLU tape" stages.

F-16 MLU are indeed compatible with LANTIRN pod (and others as the SNIPER XR), JHMCS, and - with the latest standard - AIM-9X, AIM-120D, GBU-39 SDB and many other weapons.

Interesting article about (Belgian) F-16 MLU fleet history: https://www.keymilitary.com/article/forty-years-belgian-falcons
Pictures from above source with SNIPER XR pod and JHMCS.

 

[yahya]

Allegedly one of the F-16s donated to Kiev.

 

[yahya]

More sm info started to circulate that the above mentioned F-16 was portrayed at the Ivano-Frankivsk Airport.

 

[yahya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1827637428439437758

View: https://x.com/clashreport/status/1827637428439437758

 

[Ozair]

Allegedly one of the F-16s donated to Kiev.

View attachment 738205

Interesting they have AIM-9M on station 8 and AIM-120 on station 9 with the Terma PIDS pylon on station 7. Was hoping the aircraft would be equipped with AIM-9X from the start.