Tupolev 'Article 80' PAK DA bomber (Poslannik / Envoy)

[Archibald]

A reputable source!

The very name often sounds, to my ears, like an insult to the 1957 satellite and Korolev memory (sigh)

 

[airman]

About Pak-Da i know this render image : it's too early for know definitive project. Could be remained it @ state of project or other.

 

[flateric]

About Pak-Da i know this render image : it's too early for know definitive project. Could be remained it @ state of project or other.

Have you ever heard of Sukhoi T-4MS?

 

[panzerfeist1]

Got this news from another certain forum to update this board.

В России началось производство ракетоносца ПАК ДА

Российские предприятия начали производство перспективного ракетоносца ПАК ДА. - Минобороны утвердило все технические требования к самолету. Работы по созданию ПАК ДА в установленные сроки развернуты в "Туполеве" и на предприятиях кооперации, - сообщил "Интерфаксу" глава Минпромторга РФ Денис...

vpk.name

“Russian enterprises have begun production of the promising missile carrier PAK DA.
- The Ministry of Defense approved all the technical requirements for the aircraft. Work on the creation of PAK YES has been deployed in a timely manner at Tupolev and at cooperative enterprises, Denis Manturov, head of the RF Ministry of Industry and Trade, told Interfax.
The new bomber-missile carrier will replace the current family of long-range aircraft in the troops: Tu-22M, Tu-95 and Tu-160. PAK DA is designed according to the “flying wing” scheme using stealth technologies. It will be subsonic, the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly.
The engine for PAK DA is created by the United Engine Corporation. According to open data, the power plant will provide traction 23 ton-force.
Tests of the missile carrier will be held at the Tupolev base near Moscow in Zhukovsky. Earlier, the head of PJSC "Tupolev" Alexander Konyukhov said that the rolling out of the prototype is scheduled for 2021-2022.”

 

[bobbymike]

Russia to Build 3 PAK DA Stealth Bomber Prototypes

Serial production of the new bomber is expected to kick off in 2027.

thediplomat.com

 

[Deltafan]

Russia greenlights production of PAK-DA stealth bomber

Russia greenlights production of PAK-DA stealth bomber

The PAK-DA is expected to replace all current strategic bombers in the Russian Air Force by the next decade.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Deino]

Russia greenlights production of PAK-DA stealth bomber

Russia greenlights production of PAK-DA stealth bomber

The PAK-DA is expected to replace all current strategic bombers in the Russian Air Force by the next decade.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Sorry that I cannot hide my reservations, but how likely is this schedule?

"Flight tests of the aircraft is scheduled for 2027" and in the same report "to commence production for a possible delivery by 2027" are vastly different issues and given the issues they already had and still have with the Su-57; I'm not holding my breath.

 

[panzerfeist1]

Sorry that I cannot hide my reservations, but how likely is this schedule?

"Flight tests of the aircraft is scheduled for 2027" and in the same report "to commence production for a possible delivery by 2027" are vastly different issues and given the issues they already had and still have with the Su-57; I'm not holding my breath.

Its a give or take since they are going with the modernization of the Tu-160 and Su-34s. I cant see why the excessive need for more bombers.

 

[kaiserd]

Russia greenlights production of PAK-DA stealth bomber

Russia greenlights production of PAK-DA stealth bomber

The PAK-DA is expected to replace all current strategic bombers in the Russian Air Force by the next decade.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Sorry that I cannot hide my reservations, but how likely is this schedule?

"Flight tests of the aircraft is scheduled for 2027" and in the same report "to commence production for a possible delivery by 2027" are vastly different issues and given the issues they already had and still have with the Su-57; I'm not holding my breath.

Given the parallel time scales for new build Tu-160M production (first delivery planned for 2021?) the stated timescales stated for the PAK-DA service entry and supposed replacement of all other Russian strategic bombers are way out of whack, even assuming relatively smooth development.

 

[GARGEAN]

Sorry that I cannot hide my reservations, but how likely is this schedule?

"Flight tests of the aircraft is scheduled for 2027" and in the same report "to commence production for a possible delivery by 2027" are vastly different issues and given the issues they already had and still have with the Su-57; I'm not holding my breath.

Bullshit as usual. And as usual much more probable misinterpretation of one words plus talking heads giving other empty words. Kinda same as with T-14 (which was never supposed to be delivered in 2300 number) or T-50 (which never had any reasonable issues during development, just same talking heads giving "introduction date" at three years after first flight (???) and then shifting it again, again and again).

 

[Evgeniy]

I will throw a little to stir up the topic (photo of an unknown model made in 2018):

 

[Evgeniy]

I put on the model from my previous post.

Россия начала строительство первого стратегического стелс-бомбардировщика

Изготовлением элементов планера первой машины займется один из авиазаводов в структуре Объединенной авиастроительный корпорации, сообщили источники ТАСС

tass.ru

 

[Deino]

Hmm???

https://twitter.com/x/status/1265139654493450241

 

[flateric]

Kinda half of an year old news

http://redstar.ru/fundament-oboronosposobnosti-otechestva-nadyozhen/

 

[Evgeniy]

So not long before the premiere.

 

[QuadroFX]

2-3 years, given the realities of today's economy.

 

[Evgeniy]

No. I think at Avisalon 2021 maximum.

 

[Flyaway]

Russia's first prototype stealth bomber 'starts construction' to rival US B-2 fleet

Work on the prototype of the high-tech plane is said to have already commenced - as China also works on its own stealth project.

news.sky.com

 

[Josh_TN]

It seems there will be somewhat of a race to roll out a new strategic bomber among three major powers.

 

[FighterJock]

It seems there will be somewhat of a race to roll out a new strategic bomber among three major powers.

It will be interesting to see what country comes out with their strategic bomber first.

 

[zebra159357]

Based mostly on timing, if NG rolls out its bomber first, then Chinese and Russians can use the later rollout as a propaganda tool, claiming it as a direct answer to B-21 in my opinion.

 

[FighterJock]

Based mostly on timing, if NG rolls out its bomber first, then Chinese and Russians can use the later rollout as a propaganda tool, claiming it as a direct answer to B-21 in my opinion.

I think that China and Russia will use the B-21 as a propaganda tool anyway, regardless on what country reveals their new strategic bomber first.

 

[bring_it_on]

It seems there will be somewhat of a race to roll out a new strategic bomber among three major powers.

It will be interesting to see what country comes out with their strategic bomber first.

More important than "rolling out" would be adding it into the fleet. Propaganda only has value as far as you can back it up. All three would have to show that they can build this thing and buy it at a decent clip to modernize their respective bomber forces.

 

[yasotay]

Seems to me that any country will use whatever is available to propagandize their desired point. That is just doing business in global power politics.

 

[Sundog]

I'm betting on Northrop. Let me see, B-2 Bomber roll out, November 22, 1988. Northrop wins!
I haven't any doubt the B-21 is going to be at least a generation ahead of what either China or Russia rolls out.

 

[T-50]

I'm betting on Northrop. Let me see, B-2 Bomber roll out, November 22, 1988. Northrop wins!
I haven't any doubt the B-21 is going to be at least a generation ahead of what either China or Russia rolls out.

Maybe the Raider or the Chinese bomber will appear first but I doubt of the B-21 is a generation ahead because other countries like Russia have a healthy know how of Stealth America is not anymore the leader of stealth and military electronics! Russia and China made a huge progress at these scientific fields in the past years. Don't get me wrong the B-21 Raider wil be a awesome new stealth bomber, that surpass the B-2 that's for sure! But don't underestimate your rival/oponent.
We know for sure wich bomber shall be the better one when we seen the three of them in real action /when they are in service!

 

[bring_it_on]

Proof is in the pudding! While we can talk all day about who has an edge, and who is or isn't being under(over)estimated, when it comes to those advanced electronics, low-observable airframes, and the design, testing, production and sustainment of LO technology is concerned one can very easily look at what each has achieved over the last 20-30 years in all of these areas which one would be of interest when evaluating industrial and technological capability to pursue a particular modernization path. Certainly, 3+ decades of design, production and sustainment followed by vital role in not one but two 5th generation fighter aircraft and a fair number of UAV programs does give Northrop Grumman a huge technological base and know-how as it pertains to relevant technology and design.

But certainly the final proof will be when the products are revealed and how mature they are at that stage. Maturity would be of considerable interest to me. What gets included in LRIP-1 for example. Not Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 24 etc...but what's rolling our of the hanger when it is time to unveil and fly and how close to a combat capable product it all is. While you can roll something out by a certain date..there's a world of difference between rolling out a something that is expected to be very close to an operaitonal configuration while simultaneously producing operational aircraft, vs rolling out a demonstrator. That contrast, if it exists between these three, will be interesting to observe and study. It will give some insight into when the respective Air-Forces can begin using this system.

I'm betting on Northrop. Let me see, B-2 Bomber roll out, November 22, 1988. Northrop wins!

So true..but it's not going to stop some from claiming.."our stealth bomber got out of the gate first"...

 

[GARGEAN]

I haven't any doubt the B-21 is going to be at least a generation ahead of what either China or Russia rolls out.

How would you determine "generation ahead"?

 

[TomcatViP]

Visual stealth? Distributed exhaust? Motionless controls? On budget ?

 

[Evgeniy]

It will be interesting to see what country comes out with their strategic bomber first.

Even more interesting will be the fact that will indicate which country was the first to bring its aircraft to real combat readiness and mass production.

 

[Evgeniy]

Based mostly on timing, if NG rolls out its bomber first, then Chinese and Russians can use the later rollout as a propaganda tool, claiming it as a direct answer to B-21 in my opinion.

So PAK-DA is the direct answer to the B-21.
There are no options.
Another thing is that in tactical terms they can be different.

 

[sferrin]

It will be interesting to see what country comes out with their strategic bomber first.

Even more interesting will be the fact that will indicate which country was the first to bring its aircraft to real combat readiness and mass production.

That would be the B-2 back in the late 80s.

 

[sferrin]

Based mostly on timing, if NG rolls out its bomber first, then Chinese and Russians can use the later rollout as a propaganda tool, claiming it as a direct answer to B-21 in my opinion.

So PAK-DA is the direct answer to the B-21.

They started working on PAK-DA before there even was such a thing as a B-21. They'll be lucky if they get even B-2 quality.

 

[Evgeniy]

They started working on PAK-DA before there even was such a thing as a B-21. They'll be lucky if they get even B-2 quality.

Work on the B-21 was not the only work in the United States on a strategic bomber in the last 30 years.
B-2 remained in that era, still "Soviet".
As for quality, first you need to know the real quality of the B-2 itself.

 

[sferrin]

They started working on PAK-DA before there even was such a thing as a B-21. They'll be lucky if they get even B-2 quality.

Work on the B-21 was not the only work in the United States on a strategic bomber in the last 30 years.

And? That doesn't change the fact that work on PAK-DA started years before there was such a thing as the B-21.

B-2 remained in that era, still "Soviet".

The Soviet era died within a year or two of the first flight of the B-2.

As for quality, first you need to know the real quality of the B-2 itself.

It's not a complete unknown. Also, the problems with the Su-57 aren't exactly a ringing endorsement of Russian ability in the department of building stealth aircraft. Certainly not to the degree the US does.

 

[Evgeniy]

And? That doesn't change the fact that work on PAK-DA started years before there was such a thing as the B-21.

No, it does not cancel.
But specifically, the B-21 is not yet in the metal (I mean the flight prototype of the B-21, but the whole program).
I had in mind the various work on strategic bombers in the USA that had been going on all this time. What should become the B-21, in the end, turned out to be a favorite.

The Soviet era died within a year or two of the first flight of the B-2.

So 2 years, this is not 20 years. And the work itself on the future B-2 began all the same earlier.

It's not a complete unknown. Also, the problems with the Su-57 aren't exactly a ringing endorsement of Russian ability in the department of building stealth aircraft. Certainly not to the degree the US does.

The "problems" of the Su-57 mainly exist on the pages of some ideologically charged Western publications.
And then there’s the question of what to consider “problems”.
The fact that the Su-57 could not be ready in 2015 was already clear, despite the arguments in some Russian tabloids.

 

[zebra159357]

Based mostly on timing, if NG rolls out its bomber first, then Chinese and Russians can use the later rollout as a propaganda tool, claiming it as a direct answer to B-21 in my opinion.

So PAK-DA is the direct answer to the B-21.
There are no options.
Another thing is that in tactical terms they can be different.

I would say PAK-DA is a rather very late answer to the B-2, same with the Chinese H-20 which has been in the works since early 2000s. To what degree Russian and Chinese bombers are equivalent or better in comparision to the B-2 is only a guess, but I think its fairly obvious they should at least be on par, if not surpass, B-2 capabilities. On the other hand I highly doubt PAK-DA or H-20 will reach the same generational leap as the B-21.

 

[flateric]

The "problems" of the Su-57 mainly exist on the pages of some ideologically charged Western publications.

lold

The fact that the Su-57 could not be ready in 2015 was already clear, despite the arguments in some Russian tabloids.

yes, sure. Tabloid name was RuAF C-in-C Zelin

Поставки Т-50 для Минобороны начнутся в 2015 году - главком ВВС

"Вопросы производства отработаны, и я думаю, что в 2015 году пятое поколение пойдет в войска", - сообщил РИА Новости главнокомандующий военно-воздушными силами (ВВС) России генерал-лейтенант Виктор Бондарев.

ria.ru

 

[Evgeniy]

lold

Well, I would not say that:

Russia admits defeat on its 'stealth' F-35 killer by canceling mass production of the Su-57 fighter jet

The Su-57, a plane designed to kill the US F-35 and F-22 stealth jets with an innovative array of radars, saw a brief period of combat over Syria, but the deployment lasted only days and didn't pit the jet against any threats befitting a world-class fighter.

www.businessinsider.com

Plus, “dancing” around those 12 unfortunate Su-57s that stood out for general production until 2028.
Well, some others.

yes, sure. Tabloid name was RuAF C-in-C Zelin

So this is a common part of the problem. There, after all, Boldyrev only “thinks” about serial production in 2015. No one is to blame for the fact that the Ministry of Defense has so poor speechwriters who are unable to explain to their superiors that sometimes you need to think better before you say something.


I finished offtopic.

PS. Could you duplicate in the topic about the Su-57 that picture, with the engine of the third stage, which was laid out at Paralai about six months ago.
I just didn’t have time to save it, but I can’t find it there anymore.

 

[Evgeniy]

I would say PAK-DA is a rather very late answer to the B-2,

Well, I think, if you say it absolutely right, then “80” is the answer to all American stealth strategic bombers, including promising ones.
But closer not to the B-21, but to the NGB. And larger. This is judged by the model on the table.
As well as maintaining parity with growing China.
I think the B-21 will have the most advanced skin and coating.