The Secret Horsepower Race by Calum Douglas (and piston engine discussion)
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I have to confess I do not know. However I will add it to future "Research: to do"
Sienar, in "Wunibald Kamm - Wegbereiter der Modernen Kraftfahrtechnik", there are no mention to Messerschmitt`s rotary-valve aircraft engine being passed to Kamm`s FKFS. There was a 1936-1938 experimental 2 stroke gas 1-cylinder engine, whose development was canceled, but with ball ("kugel") exhaust valve. I recall that Messerschmitt toyed with turbojets, too.
Nicknick, BMW played with disk slide valves and conical slide valves. What does the book say more about this engine? It could be the BMW 803 A, although the Bavarian company planned for other engines too. Does Herr Apfelbeck mentions other "out-of-the-box" 1930`s & 1940`s German developments?
He also mentioned a radial 4 valve cylinder head he was working on. On the radial head, the intakes and exhaust valves were opposed to each other, like he patented it and which was used on a BMW formula 2 race engine much later.
The disk of the rotary valve head controled four opening (two intakes and two exhaust) and used rotating seals. The rotating seals (driven by the disk) polished the disk and made it quite reliable with low wear rates (in his word, the only really reliable working rotating disk engine). On the other hand, the openings have been quite small, so that is propably didnt produce more power than a good conventional engine. He claims, that with all other types of seals, the surfaces of the rotating disk/cone/Balls showed scratches after short time and couldnt operate reliable.
All the described designs have been for water cooled cylinders, strangly, the disk type rotating valves were combined with air cooled cylinder heads. This might have been choosen, because the disk needs plenty of oil (as stated) which would have contributed to the cooling.
Neither the four valve radial not the disc valve arrangement fit very well on the BMW 803. The radial valve engine (btw. the drawing is dated from April 1945!) is an OHV type with two camshafts in the crankcase in contrast to the 803 with its SOHC valve train. The rotating disk is driven by a vertical shaft, this fits better to a radial engine (but not the water cooling).
I guess this type of stuff was done shortly befor the war ended, when the end is clearly in sight, you dont need to care about short term solutions any more...
The disk of the rotary valve head controled four opening (two intakes and two exhaust) and used rotating seals. The rotating seals (driven by the disk) polished the disk and made it quite reliable with low wear rates (in his word, the only really reliable working rotating disk engine). On the other hand, the openings have been quite small, so that is propably didnt produce more power than a good conventional engine. He claims, that with all other types of seals, the surfaces of the rotating disk/cone/Balls showed scratches after short time and couldnt operate reliable.
All the described designs have been for water cooled cylinders, strangly, the disk type rotating valves were combined with air cooled cylinder heads. This might have been choosen, because the disk needs plenty of oil (as stated) which would have contributed to the cooling.
Neither the four valve radial not the disc valve arrangement fit very well on the BMW 803. The radial valve engine (btw. the drawing is dated from April 1945!) is an OHV type with two camshafts in the crankcase in contrast to the 803 with its SOHC valve train. The rotating disk is driven by a vertical shaft, this fits better to a radial engine (but not the water cooling).
I guess this type of stuff was done shortly befor the war ended, when the end is clearly in sight, you dont need to care about short term solutions any more...
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German disc valve development as far as I have found in wartime files began before the war even started (37/38) , and the DVL were central to it.
At least some low volume of the BMW 803 was certainly built with rotary valves.
I took a second look on the BMW 803 and now I believe the "Königswelle" (Bevel shaft) drive of this engine fits very well to the design showen in the Apfelbeck book.
Deep in my mind I remember that there was a Torpedo engine with such a disc valve design, which perfectly makes sense in the narrow built space.
Other than the Burt-Mc. Collum sleeve valve, the disc valve seems to be infirior to conventional valve systems over all and never went into production (exept maybe in Torpedos).
Deep in my mind I remember that there was a Torpedo engine with such a disc valve design, which perfectly makes sense in the narrow built space.
Other than the Burt-Mc. Collum sleeve valve, the disc valve seems to be infirior to conventional valve systems over all and never went into production (exept maybe in Torpedos).
Going back to the book recently for reference it occurred to me that a diagramme of coolant temperature, in the same vein as those for power / manifold pressure / engine speed from the final chapter, would be useful. They single out some of the differences between concepts (e.g. Merlin vs. Jumo 213 or Sabre) very nicely, and the disparate approaches to coolant temperature/pressure are an important part of the story that emerges from the book.
I suspect it would have to be a separate diagramme containing only coolant temp but all manufacturers though instead of the OEM-specific graphs, due to the axes.
I suspect it would have to be a separate diagramme containing only coolant temp but all manufacturers though instead of the OEM-specific graphs, due to the axes.
Umm yes thats definetly possible. There were a few such things I ran out of time to do in the original edition.
Interestingly I just discovered that DB actually did a few tests at 160 Deg C coolant temp, think it was 1943. However I am pretty sure still with 50/50 glycol water which is a shame, I suspect the ceiling on the pressure they could run was behind that - although the RLM certainly had stipulations as to the use of 50/50, but I`d say by 1943 they could probably have been persuaded to relax that given the unfavourable passage of the war at the time.
SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
ww2aircraft.net
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
ww2aircraft.net
SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
As a working book editor with 40 years of experience, and one who understands how to write a proper review, this "review" was filled with a great deal of bluster, and off hand remarks, along with some rude remarks. Buried within was what boiled down to "I was surprised to see that the following were not included."
My company has published a large number of books. Pre-release promotion does occur. It's necessary.
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SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
'Haters gonna hate.'
SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
'Haters gonna hate.'
Hmmm, yes... I see... Or to put it another way: That was not constructive in the slightest.
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G'day mate,SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
I do not know you personally nor do I know enough about these engines to go into anything like a knowledge base or judge depth of content. I DO know that there is a finite amount of information accessible at any one time AND there is a limit to how much time/money can be invested in any project before the project is frozen/put to print.
I bought the book and found it fine, there are some additional areas of interest that have been gone into here but nothing happens overnight. Nothing worth having anyway.
I will buy and read any books you write in a similar vein and while I do not declair myself an engineer, have massive interest which your book has fed, leading me to try to learn more. As someone who deals with long term chronic pain and health issues, not every book I come across has that return for me so, thanks very much. I hope to see more in the future.
As for the Ranting ?Reviewer?, WHO?
Sorry if I have overstepped the mark.
Hi Calum,
To save others some time, Xylstra doesn't even seem to be unhappy with anything that's actually in the book, but rather rants about stuff that he thinks should have been in the book but isn't.
Here's my excerpt of everthing Xylstra thought was absent ... of course, he only considers these points examples for much more that's supposedly missing:
(I didn't type a single letter, I just deleted the excess text.)
I'm a big fan of your book, but of course I've been into WW2 aero engines for quite a while now. I could imagine there would be room for another book that is not chronologically structured, but instead takes a look at the major components and sub-systems of the engines of the era, illustrating different solutions with examples. Of course, someone might be unhappy when you pick all the wrong examples! ;-)
Just trying to actually extract something constructive from Xylstra's post so my time isn't completely wasted ...
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
To save others some time, Xylstra doesn't even seem to be unhappy with anything that's actually in the book, but rather rants about stuff that he thinks should have been in the book but isn't.
Here's my excerpt of everthing Xylstra thought was absent ... of course, he only considers these points examples for much more that's supposedly missing:
(I didn't type a single letter, I just deleted the excess text.)
I'm a big fan of your book, but of course I've been into WW2 aero engines for quite a while now. I could imagine there would be room for another book that is not chronologically structured, but instead takes a look at the major components and sub-systems of the engines of the era, illustrating different solutions with examples. Of course, someone might be unhappy when you pick all the wrong examples! ;-)
Just trying to actually extract something constructive from Xylstra's post so my time isn't completely wasted ...
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Hi Calum,
SP-forum member Xylstra has made a review of my book on another forum for those interested to see
the viewpoint of people unimpressed by my writing.
"The Secret HorsePower Race"
Rather an unusual post, this one. I'm actually quite reluctant to present this issue in an open public forum but have decided to do so after much deliberation. From the opening title you can see that it concerns a book known to a number of you. I find myself in the curious position of coming...
To save others some time, Xylstra doesn't even seem to be unhappy with anything that's actually in the book, but rather rants about stuff that he thinks should have been in the book but isn't.
Here's my excerpt of everthing Xylstra thought was absent ... of course, he only considers these points examples for much more that's supposedly missing:
(I didn't type a single letter, I just deleted the excess text.)
I'm a big fan of your book, but of course I've been into WW2 aero engines for quite a while now. I could imagine there would be room for another book that is not chronologically structured, but instead takes a look at the major components and sub-systems of the engines of the era, illustrating different solutions with examples. Of course, someone might be unhappy when you pick all the wrong examples! ;-)
Just trying to actually extract something constructive from Xylstra's post so my time isn't completely wasted ...
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
I dont mind suggestions of what to put into a future edition/different book, but I do rather object to people making such reviews when they have not actually read the book, which appears to be the case with several of his comments. Although he describes his review
as a quote: "forensic" analysis.
Complaining that the 803 was mentioned when it was quote: "never intended to be used in a fighter"
Page 396:
Complaining that the Griffon is not covered as if it were some idiotic oversight,
when on page 447:
Complains that the Kommandogerat workings are not described, and also mocks
that the diagram is from the manual (where else Dr Watson? a Christmas cracker?),
then complains that how the gears move isnt described, but that he and quote
"all his friends" are engine designers - but are somehow totally unable to understand
a perfectly illustrated full colour diagram with a complete color-coded legend on
page 158. Does he wish to be told that a gear rotating counter-clockwise will move its mating gear
clockwise ?
His suggestion to include some of Bristols turbo research is a reasonable one and I might
even try to do it if I can ignore the tirade of insults and abuse of everyone from the author to the forum
moderators which accompanies it.
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Xysltra proved that engine designers (hey, me too), can be highly sensible and get far out of emotional equilibrium by reading books about engines. Despite I’m not sharing the amount of psychological distress from the lack of detailed explanations of the control systems, I see it as a confirmation, that designing engines is a very special branch of engineering….
Hi Calum,
Even if you hadn't included the mention, I think it's a necessity to manage the scope of any book, so criticism based on a different preference is sort of pointless, in my opinion.
I try not be this guy, but I'm not always successful:
;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Even if you hadn't included the mention, I think it's a necessity to manage the scope of any book, so criticism based on a different preference is sort of pointless, in my opinion.
I try not be this guy, but I'm not always successful:
;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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If I were to complain, it would be ignoring the P&W system of sending the pressure carburetor fuel output to a slinger inside the supercharger impeller, where it was evenly distributed thru mid-impeller holes between every other blade, providing induction evaporation cooling and even distribution of the fuel air mixture to each cylinder. Worked much better than Wright’s 3350 system until they moved to fuel injection at the end of the war.
Well after a skim of the files the VERY short version of the Bristol turbocharger research is that all their turbos were designed by the R.A.E, not Bristol, although Bristol appear to have done a pretty fair amount in terms of manufacture and development. All this work basically stopped in or about 1927 in England for reasons I`m not entirely certain of but appear to be a "tipping point" where the continued failure to develop a really reliable and simple turbo product was overtaken by the development of very reliable gear driven compressors which had "acceptable" performance. Jimmy Ellor did most of the engineering work on these turbochargers at the R.A.E, before he was later poached by RR.
The signs are that British research on turbos was probably roughly equal to the early efforts in France and later the USA, the USA eventually winning out by virtue of perseverance on the concept of the exhaust driven turbine. There was a fair bit of turbocharger stuff done in WW1 in England at the R.A.E. or "the factory" as it was then known. It looks like most of this was done on the RAF.26T 2-stroke aero engine.
The signs are that British research on turbos was probably roughly equal to the early efforts in France and later the USA, the USA eventually winning out by virtue of perseverance on the concept of the exhaust driven turbine. There was a fair bit of turbocharger stuff done in WW1 in England at the R.A.E. or "the factory" as it was then known. It looks like most of this was done on the RAF.26T 2-stroke aero engine.
Another idea that I'm not fully sold on myself, as it's not really a great interest of mine personally, but what about a closing chapter on the post-war career and developments of these engines in air racing? I realize that this is opening a whole new can of worms and, as mentioned, I won't be too disappointed if it's not possible, but with the lineage from the R engine (and racing fuel development) to the Merlin it strikes mes that the story comes full-circle that way.
I`ll think about it but that's also the sort of thing that many people criticize for being "off topic". I have to say I usually find books with "forays of interest" like that really annoying although I do of course understand the utility of such a summary. Post war warbird racing engine development is probably a book on its own to be honest, to do it justice.
I absolutely hammered a book in a review I did a few years back because the author constantly veered off topic and put in all sorts of little "here is a thing I also find interesting", so its something I really try to avoid.
Also, I don't have a huge trove of good evidence on the details, I`d need to have a few race plane operators offer me access to their information to make it possible. I wont put second hand info into the book.
Its a worthy topic, but I think needs a separate treatment.
(Thanks for your suggestion, please dont hesitate to provide others they`re all gratefully recieved.)
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@Calum Douglas : Interesting as the technical details are, my deciding reason for buying your book was me expecting an account of how development and politics meshed. Your book delivered even better than I had expected, the quality of the technical descriptions a much appreciated bonus. Frankly, post-war racing use of big piston engines would not satisfy my curiosity about where technology and politics meet.
That is very valuable feedback, thank you.
I would be more interested in all the projects which never materialized, but showed a promising design like the Studebaker XH-9350 (which of course, was never a fighter engine) or the Ford V12 which really would have been a formidable engine.
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If you need to know literally anything about this engine, William's book is the one to have.
Equivalent shout-out for Kim McCutcheon's Wright Tornado book, and Graham White's R-4360 work.
Have a look at the Allison Branch of the RR Historical Trust for V-1710 variants and V-3420 designs, too.
Oh I just meant I had never read it, so didn't know how good it was.thanks, not yet but I'm thinking on purchasing it since more than a year....
You shouldn't offer copies as an author anyway...
OliverSedlacek
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Ouch, over £60 for the R-4360 book at Amazon. Time to look down the back of the sofa...
Yeah I dont think its a mass market appeal publication sadly.
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Good luck getting the truth out of leading air racers.
To quote Dennis Sanders “All racers lie.”
Hah!
Hah!
The Sanders family fleet of Sea Furies won the bulk of the medals in the Unlimited Class at Reno 2023. When spare parts for Bristol Centaurus engines ran short, they converted their fleet of Sea Furies to American-made radial engines: R-3350 and R-4360. It is easy to identify the conversions by their 4-bladed propellers. Mind you the Sanders family are still pushing their American-made racing engines to temperatures, pressures and speed considerably above factory recommendatikns.
I have packed parachutes for several Reno air racers and can assure you that they are very close-lipped about modifications, temperatures, pressures, etc.
A book about racing engines would definitely require a completely separate volume that would need to include: Reno, speed boats and dragsters.
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Great detailed book, like all of (forum member) W. Pearce's publications.
You may know his engine and aircraft site:
I don’t believe, that the modifications have been well documented and many planes crashed and many racers died. On the other hand, it seems like the unlimited class came to an end and if there is any chance to write a book about it, it is now. No one has to keep their secrets without being able to race.
As said, I would really like a book about all the piston engine concepts which existed on the drawing boards by the end of the war (and somewhat later) but never made it into production.
As said, I would really like a book about all the piston engine concepts which existed on the drawing boards by the end of the war (and somewhat later) but never made it into production.
Please email Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust, and ask them when they are going to reopen any of their archives, until they do, its going to be impossible to write such a book.
Upcoming Lecture Programme:
27th April - Cambridge, UK. Royal Aeronautical Society. (In person and online feed, email David to arrange the feed).
www.aerosociety.com
17th May - Oxford, UK. Reaction Engines Ltd (private lecture to company personell only, closed to public)
20th June - London, UK. Institution of Mechanical Engineers. (In person).
27th April - Cambridge, UK. Royal Aeronautical Society. (In person and online feed, email David to arrange the feed).
Cambridge Branch: The Race for horsepower WWII, Callum E Douglas
Members, aerospace professionals and aviation enthusiasts are invited to the Cambridge Branch's Lecture, which will focus on "The Race for horsepower WWII".
17th May - Oxford, UK. Reaction Engines Ltd (private lecture to company personell only, closed to public)
20th June - London, UK. Institution of Mechanical Engineers. (In person).
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