The F-35 Discussion Topic (No Holds Barred II)

LowObservable said:
Triton - Shocker00!!!!

http://aviationweek.com/defense/advanced-electro-optical-system-priority-f-35-block-4

Sferrin - Things that were contracted and paid for are different from things that were not contracted or paid for. I don't think this is a complex distinction.

Then the DoD should go after LM for breach of contract. Should be open and shut right? And speaking of "out of date" how many Typhoons are operational with AESAs? Shouldn't you be on about that travesty given that even old 4th gen US fighters have been using them for years? Oh wait, Eurocanard, it gets a pass.
 
sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
Triton - Shocker00!!!!

http://aviationweek.com/defense/advanced-electro-optical-system-priority-f-35-block-4

Sferrin - Things that were contracted and paid for are different from things that were not contracted or paid for. I don't think this is a complex distinction.

Then the DoD should go after LM for breach of contract. Should be open and shut right? And speaking of "out of date" how many Typhoons are operational with AESAs? Shouldn't you be on about that travesty given that even old 4th gen US fighters have been using them for years? Oh wait, Eurocanard, it gets a pass.
Here the picture from the story linked at AW&ST

EOTS_BillSweetmanAWST.jpg


All that stuff hanging off and sticking out makes this aircraft more stealthy, right???
 
Clearly that can hanging on the pylon makes it a 6th gen aircraft. ;) Gotta love that stealthy refueling contraption too.
 
sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
Triton - Shocker00!!!!

http://aviationweek.com/defense/advanced-electro-optical-system-priority-f-35-block-4

Sferrin - Things that were contracted and paid for are different from things that were not contracted or paid for. I don't think this is a complex distinction.

Then the DoD should go after LM for breach of contract.

Lockheed Martin believes that it fufilled its contractual obligation with EOTS. Not sure why Lockheed Martin should be expected to retrofit delivered aircraft to Advanced EOTS for free.
 
Triton - This was not in reference to Advanced EOTS. The existing system is what was called for, so no issue there.


The question is whether Sferrin's comparison of 493 F-35s needing rework to F-16A/Bs delivered to contract was valid, which of course it is not. Neither is Bobbymike's totally irrelevant aside about Rafale. But this is what the fans always do - make loud noises to distract from their own program's issues.


What I haven't had time to dig into yet is how many of those F-35s will have been ordered under FPI contracts, whether those contracts specified full 3F configuration, and if not, how those modernizations get paid for.


By the way, Bobbymike does accidentally underscore an important point: so far, experience has shown that design for stealth doesn't necessarily aid in adaptability, or in incorporating new capabilities.
 
LowObservable said:
Triton - This was not in reference to Advanced EOTS. The existing system is what was called for, so no issue there.


The question is whether Sferrin's comparison of 493 F-35s needing rework to F-16A/Bs delivered to contract was valid, which of course it is not.

If LM is in breach of contract then they should foot the bill. Are they? Y/N


LowObservable said:
By the way, Bobbymike does accidentally underscore an important point: so far, experience has shown that design for stealth doesn't necessarily aid in adaptability, or in incorporating new capabilities.

ROFL!! Wow, talk about spin.
 
LowObservable said:
By the way, Bobbymike does accidentally underscore an important point: so far, experience has shown that design for stealth doesn't necessarily aid in adaptability, or in incorporating new capabilities.


Designing for stealth will NEVER "aid" the ease of adaptability or incorporating new technologies because you will always be a victim or RCS and the OML.


However, the F-35 was designed from the outset to be the easiest and least expensive to upgrade, in both development and procurement when compared to any modern aircraft flying.
 
Apparently being able to switch pods (because you have no other choice) is suppose to be more desirable than all-aspect stealth. ;)
 
SpudmanWP - A laudable aim. We'll find out about that when we see what's in Block 4 and what it costs.
 
You don't have to wait for Block4... just look at the Block3i (with TR2) and Block 3F costs and you will see the benefits.


There was a recent article on how a local crew (with the help of LM) did the Block 2B upgrade. Not only are the relative costs low, but are simple enough to not have to go back to the depot.

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/nellis-completes-f-35-upgrade-at-home
 
Do you have a source on the Multi-Mission Pod support so I add it to my list?


I would be very interested to see what features the pod will have.
 
"F-35 Multi Mission Pod on Display"
2012-07-10:

Source:
http://www.terma.com/press/news-2012/f-35-multi-mission-pod-on-display/

On display at stand # C26 in Hall 2 is the F-35 Multi Mission Pod built using the very latest composite technology for extra strength and light weight.

Farnborough International Airshow 2012 – On display at the Terma stand C26 in Hall 2 is the F-35 Multi Mission Pod built using the very latest composite technology for extra strength and light weight. The pod is designed for versions of the F-35 with requirements for external stores.

In 2004, Terma won the contract to design, develop, qualify, and produce F-35 Gun Pods for the F-35B and F-35C in partnership with General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products, a business unit of General Dynamics.

The F-35 Pod is a full monocoque composite structure in carbon fiber. It passed engineering test and qualification and has flown on the F-35 in February 2012 and is currently in the LRIP production phase.

The F-35 Pod Enclosure will provide real estate on the F-35, which can be used to expand the F-35 Special Mission functionality, by allowing the F-35 to fly Next Generation EW and ISR systems, such as Jammers and EO sensors.

Terma is deeply involved in the design and production of a large variety of structural and avionics components for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter.

Based on more than 25 years of experience working with aerospace composites and composite-to-metal bonded assemblies, Terma provides a wide range of high performance small to medium-sized advanced aerospace composite structures. We pride ourselves on delivering a quality product that has been tested to the highest standards.

About Terma
The Aerostructures Business Area specializes in the design and manufacture of advanced structural parts for the defense and non-defense market, including products for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the F-16 fighter aircraft, the Gulfstream business jet, as well as Pods and Pylons. The business area employs 300 people at the facilities at Grenaa, Denmark and in Ft. Worth, TX, in the U.S.

The Terma Group develops products and systems for defense, non-defense, and security applications, including command and control systems, radar systems, self-protection systems for ships and aircraft, space technology, and advanced aerostructures for the international aircraft industry. The company, headquartered at Aarhus, Denmark, has a total staff of 1,100 and realized 2011 revenues of USD 248 million, and maintains international subsidiaries and operations in The Netherlands, Germany Singapore, and in the U.S.

Terma press contact:
Kasper Rasmussen
Director, Communications
T (cell): +45 2022 6091
E: kar@terma.com
Contact

Kasper Rasmussen
Director, Communications
T: +45 8743 6091
E: kar@terma.com
Contact

Nils Greir
Vice President, Strategic Marketing & Communications
T: +1 (703) 412-9410
E: nils.greir@termana.com
Newsletter

Get the latest news from Terma.
- See more at: http://www.terma.com/press/news-2012/f-35-multi-mission-pod-on-display/#sthash.uydS4Vrr.dpuf
 

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SpudmanWP said:
Do you have a source on the Multi-Mission Pod support so I add it to my list?


I would be very interested to see what features the pod will have.

What I meant was that Terma has built a carbonfibre pod optimized for low observability that can house things like EW and ISR systems on the F-35. Since Block 4 is supposed to support Universal Armament Interface (UAI), a device driver can be written to drive the devices mounted inside the Multi-Mission Pod.
 
The UAI interface version that will be initially going into the F-35 will only handle A2G munitions.


This is an early graphic of the UAI Config Versions (CVs). Currently, the USAF is is working on CV2.



9sYr6Hp.jpg
 
SpudmanWP said:
The UAI interface version that will be initially going into the F-35 will only handle A2G munitions.

This is an early graphic of the UAI Config Versions (CVs). Currently, the USAF is is working on CV2.

True, but we expect a future CV of Universal Armament Interface to support sensors. So I believe that this ding on the F-35 by LowObservable is unfair:

LowObservable said:
By the way, Bobbymike does accidentally underscore an important point: so far, experience has shown that design for stealth doesn't necessarily aid in adaptability, or in incorporating new capabilities.

LowObservable even wrote an article about this issue that we discussed previously.

I presume that the cyberwarfare pod in development for the F-35 will use UAI and it could possibly be mounted inside the Terma F-35 Multi-Mission Pod.

Are wing-mounted stealth pods also possible in the future?
 
Future CVs will undoubtedly support pods, but fielding those CVs falls way behind the development of each CV.


For example, CV1 came online a few years ago but will not even make it into Block 3F and and is just now making it into F-16s in their Block40/50 M6+ update.


http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2016/AirForce/0604602F_5_PB_2016.pdf


Unfortunately the Program Office for UAI has stopped publishing CV-specific breakdowns in the budget docs a few years ago. Since the F-15E is the development platform for UAI, it's the platform to watch for new UAI functionality.


Some recent (within the last year) UAI news:
--Drafted a multinational Memorandum of Understanding to broaden the use of UAI to nine coalition partners.
--UAI was used to drop a AASM from a European F-16.
--Turkey is now producing UAI JDAM-ish kits (called HGK)
--Starting work on Micro/Miniature munitions primarily for UAVs
--The USN has joined the previously USAF/USArmy-only initiative.

http://www.c4defence.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Guidace_Kits-ENG.pdf
 
Triton said:
I presume that the cyberwarfare pod in development for the F-35 will use UAI and it could possibly be mounted inside the Terma F-35 Multi-Mission Pod.

Are wing-mounted stealth pods also possible in the future?


That would be a correct assumption. There are IIRC two pod OML "reference designs" for the F-35. One that has the shape of the gun pod, another not. The intention here is to provide a somewhat flexible OML for external pods that does not significantly degrade the signature of the aircraft. Again, IIRC, this was designed a long time ago - the capability to add pods to enhance the platform has been around a long time.


The electronic attack system discussed a few days/pages ago is intended to fit in an external pod that (as of recently) has the basic mold line of the gun pod (and thus is basically the same as the Terma pod). Getting it in there with antennas, power, cooling, etc. may result in significant changes.
 
sferrin said:
Apparently being able to switch pods (because you have no other choice) is suppose to be more desirable than all-aspect stealth. ;)

The United States Navy is still buying the Boeing F-18G Growler and a version of the Next Generation Jammer for the F-35 has been postponed indefinitely. So the ability to use EW pods is more desirable than all-aspect stealth.
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
Apparently being able to switch pods (because you have no other choice) is suppose to be more desirable than all-aspect stealth. ;)

The United States Navy is still buying the Boeing F-18G Growler and a version of the Next Generation Jammer for the F-35 has been postponed indefinitely. So the ability to use EW pods is more desirable than all-aspect stealth.

Apples and jackhammers.
 
SpudmanWP said:
Future CVs will undoubtedly support pods, but fielding those CVs falls way behind the development of each CV.


For example, CV1 came online a few years ago but will not even make it into Block 3F and and is just now making it into F-16s in their Block40/50 M6+ update.


http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2016/AirForce/0604602F_5_PB_2016.pdf


Unfortunately the Program Office for UAI has stopped publishing CV-specific breakdowns in the budget docs a few years ago. Since the F-15E is the development platform for UAI, it's the platform to watch for new UAI functionality.


Some recent (within the last year) UAI news:
--Drafted a multinational Memorandum of Understanding to broaden the use of UAI to nine coalition partners.
--UAI was used to drop a AASM from a European F-16.
--Turkey is now producing UAI JDAM-ish kits (called HGK)
--Starting work on Micro/Miniature munitions primarily for UAVs
--The USN has joined the previously USAF/USArmy-only initiative.

http://www.c4defence.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Guidace_Kits-ENG.pdf

We know that Block 4.1 software is scheduled for late-2019 and Block 4.4 is schedule for mid-2025. It will be interesting to see how the CVs will be part of the Block 4 software release. I don't know if there is an F-35 customer who intends to use the RAFAEL I-Derby ER (Extended Range) or when support will be available for this missile. Israel?
 
sferrin said:
Apples and jackhammers.

If you insist on using the Thales TALIOS multi-function targeting pod and/or the Thales Digital Joint Reconnaissance Pod (DJRP), then yes you are out of luck on the F-35. Though I don't really understand why you would want to or pay to have a UAI driver written.
 
Because they do things that the onboard sensors won't. But it will never happen anyway.
 
"F-35s hone dog fighting skills at Top Gun for 1st time"
By Meghann Myers, Staff writer 5:59 p.m. EDT September 11, 2015

Source:
http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/09/11/f-35s-hone-dog-fighting-skills-top-gun-1st-time/72048704/

NAVAL AIR STATION FALLON, Nevada — The Navy's sole F-35C squadron made its first trip to the hallowed strike fighter ground here to hone tactical skills and fly for the first time with F/A-18 Hornets.

Strike Fighter Squadron 101's "Grim Reapers" wrapped up two weeks of training with Top Gun fliers at Fallon's Naval Strike Air Warfare Development Center on Friday, the fleet replacement squadron's latest step in putting the F-35C Lightning II through its paces toward its initial operating capability in 2018.

"The first thing is, it’s cool. The cool doesn’t wear off," pilot Lt. Cmdr. Patrick "Turtle" Rice said on Thursday. "It’s just a lot of new toys."

The Eglin Air Force Base, Florida-based squadron flew four of its 18 aircraft to Fallon on Aug. 28, VFA-101 commanding officer Cmdr. James "Cruiser" Christie said, with three main goals.

First, he said, was to assess established strike fighter tactics, techniques and procedures with a new dynamic: joint strike fighters and Hornets flying missions together, as they're scheduled to do until the F/A-18E-F Super Hornets are retired in the 2030s.

It's a big change, Rice said, because flying Hornets is so predictable thanks to decades of experience. Now they're learning how the F-35C handles as they go along.

"Something I’ve noticed with the program — it’s still being discovered in real time," he said. "It’s contrary to our habit patterns, where almost everything is a known quantity."

Because the Navy is the last service to start integrating the new platform, he added, they're fine-tuning lessons learned from the Air Force and Marine Corps variants, who went first.

The next test is executing another detachment with the F-35, which will become a regular part of its training cycle, as it is with all squadrons.

"It is really cool to be taking this aircraft to the first places it ever goes," said Master Chief Avionics Technician (AW/SW) Mike Baker, VFA-101's maintenance master chief, who spent 25 years working on Hornets and Super Hornets before transitioning to the Lightning II last year.

"We've got four planes, doing real missions with real exercises going on out there," he said of the Fallon trip. "We’re the first ones to do this, so we own that, too."

And last is to give NAS Fallon a taste of what it will be like to fly F-35s when NAWDC receives their order in 2022.

Top Gun will be home to six JSFs, according to NAS Fallon spokesman Zip Upham, which will require infrastructure updates like outdoor canopies for the aircraft, to protect the cockpits from desert heat, for example.

Paving the way

Both Baker and Christie, who have half a century of strike fighter experience between them, said that while switching from F/A-18 to F-35 is a challenge, they're more than up for it.

"The new aircraft — it has four tires, it creates lift, it makes a lot of noise when it takes off. Other than that, it’s a completely different aircraft," Baker said.

In particular, he added, the JSFs are used across three services and several other countries, so the maintainers are sharing their knowledge far and wide.

For Christie, the Fallon trip was a homecoming, after serving as the CO of Top Gun and the Naval Strike Warfare Center, both based there.

He studied the F-35 from an academic perspective in the past few years, but he got to put it all into practice when he took command of VFA-101 in July, where he could "fly the airplane that I knew from a glossy brochure," he said.

"When you have over 3,000 hours, the physics of flying doesn’t change, and the thrill of flying never leaves you," he added. "Flying is still fun and exciting, and I’m just lucky that I’m not in khakis at the Pentagon right now."

The biggest difference, he said, is the intuitive way it flies. Where flying a Hornet is a constant dance of steering and adjusting speed with the throttle, the F-35 simplifies that balance by self-correcting its speed.

"That’s necessarily incorporated into the airplane basically because the mission sets that this airplane executes are so complex," he said. "It’s based off of so much information coming into the cockpit that you need to be able to have an airplane that’s easy to fly instinctively, so you can devote the majority of your mental faculties to absorbing and processing that information."

VFA-101 made its way home to Eglin on Friday — a 4 and a half hour flight with one stopover — just as naval aviation's annual Tailhook Association Reunion kicked off in nearby Sparks, Nevada.

The F-35C is on track for delivery to the fleet in 2017, with the first deployments going out the following year, Upham said.
 
Triton - Maybe they consider that there is no point in making the pod stealthier than the two three-packs of AASM that it's there to support. Crazy, I know.


Sferrin - Bigger optics, basically. Better long-range ID and discrimination and (certainly studied, I am not sure if it is there) inflight generation of templates for the scene-matching version of AASM.
 
"Israel Eyes Exclusive Dibs on F-35"
By Barbara Opall-Rome 9:08 a.m. EDT September 12, 2015

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/09/12/israel-eyes-exclusive-dibs-f-35/72014016/

HERZLIYA, Israel — To convince Israel and its supporters in Congress that the White House truly “has its back” with respect to threats posed by Iran, US President Barack Obama and top Cabinet officials have repeatedly flagged the fact that Israel is the exclusive regional recipient of the F-35, America’s premier stealth strike fighter.

“Indeed, Israel is the only nation in the Middle East to which the United States has sold this fifth-generation aircraft,” Obama wrote in a letter last month to Rep. Jerold Nadler, a New York democrat representing the largest Jewish district in the country.

Some military and political leaders in Israel are pushing to make that regional exclusivity permanent.

Earlier this month, seeking to sway support in Congress for the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) with Iran, Secretary of State John Kerry used nearly identical language as Obama.

In a Sept. 2 letter to lawmakers, Kerry cited F-35s to Israel as a key manifestation of the administration’s commitment to preserve Israel’s so-called qualitative military edge (QME) against regional foes.

“Israel’s first F-35 aircraft will be delivered in 2016, making it the only country in the region with a US fifth-generation fighter aircraft,” Kerry wrote.

And at an Israeli Independence Day celebration last May, Vice President Joe Biden told hundreds gathered at the Israeli Embassy in Washington to thunderous applause: “Next year, we’ll deliver to Israel the F-35, our finest, making Israel the only country in the Middle East with a fifth-generation aircraft. No other.”

Now, as pressure mounts on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to jettison his battle with the White House and accept the president’s offer to fortify Israel’s QME well into the future, experts here and in Washington are urging him to put Obama to the test.

Beyond billions of dollars in additional grant aid and a menu of military modernization needs, experts here said Netanyahu should squeeze out definitive assurances that Israel will remain the exclusive regional operator of the F-35 for years to come.

How long?

“Forever,” quipped retired Maj. Gen. Amos Gilad, the Israeli Defense Ministry’s longtime director of policy and political-military affairs who leads QME-related talks with the Pentagon and State Department.

In a Sept. 7 exchange following a conference address here, Gilad refused to say whether a Mideast moratorium on F-35 exports will be an agenda item in bilateral talks on bolstering Israel’s QME. “They said officially that they won’t sell to anybody [in the region] but Israel,” Gilad told Defense News.

But when pressed for how long Israel expects those commitments to remain in place, Gilad said, “It’s all pertaining to negotiations, and it’s all very complicated. I can’t comment on this subject.”

US Sen. Tom Cotton, junior Republican senator from Arkansas, was similarly cagey when asked during a visit here earlier this month about Israel’s interest in indefinite exclusivity to the F-35.

“I don’t want to discuss specifics, but obviously Israel’s QME depends on what it has when compared against what neighboring countries have. There’s been a lot of talk from this administration about preserving Israel’s edge. But talk is cheap, especially when it comes to the Middle East.”

He added, “I and most members of Congress are 100 percent committed to action — not talk — that will maintain and improve Israel’s QME.”

Amos Yadlin, a retired Israel Air Force major general who directs the Tel Aviv-based Institute for National Security Studies, is a prominent voice in favor of immediate re-engagement with Washington to mitigate political, strategic and operative risks inherent in the nuclear deal with Iran.

“Obviously one of the ways we can work bilaterally to bolster QME and manage risks of the JCPOA is to preserve Israel’s exclusive status with regard to F-35,” Yadlin told Defense News.

That said, he noted that Washington’s allies in the Arabian Gulf also require and deserve US security assurances as a result of the nuclear deal with Iran.

“Balancing the need to preserve and reinforce our QME while, at the same time, answering legitimate concerns of the [Gulf Cooperation Council] will be something of a fine art,” Yadlin said. “Very careful thought and coordination will be required as we move forward.”

When asked about Israel’s interest in maintaining a regional monopoly on the F-35, an Israel Air Force project manager — one of the first pilots selected to fly the fifth-generation fighter — said those types of discussions were well above his pay grade.

“I don’t know what is or isn’t a subject of discussion at the political level. All I can say is I believe the US will not give for the foreseeable future this airplane to countries that can be a problem to Israel.

“If they do, the consequences will be that we won’t have an edge,” the IAF officer said.

In a recent briefing in Washington, F-35 program executives from Lockheed Martin, prime contractor for the stealth strike fighter, said the program has tremendous growth potential. Much like the Lockheed Martin F-16 program, which has produced more than 4,000 jets in four decades, executives projected a similar worldwide market for F-35s in the coming 40 years.

“Last year was the 40th anniversary of the F-16. … There’s no reason to believe that the F-35, 40 years from now, we won't be talking about a program of more than 4,000,” said Steve Over, Lockheed Martin director for F-35 International Business Development.

That said, Over insisted that the firm did not yet have licenses to market F-35s among GCC countries. “We’re definitely not out there marketing F-35s indiscriminately throughout the world,” he said.

“This is a national security issue of the highest order,” said Mike Howe, the company’s F-35 director for Israel and Europe. “We will not get ahead of our government in any way with respect to future sales to other countries.”

Eyal Ben-Reuven, a retired Israeli Army major general and lawmaker from Israel’s opposition Zionist Union party, said the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee to which he belongs is not yet privy to details of the security enhancements Israel plans to secure from Washington. But he said an Israeli request to maintain a long-term Mideast monopoly on the F-35 seemed “highly prudent and reasonable,” given the instability and unpredictability of the region.

“In the last five years, all the intelligence sources, methods and means have completely failed to anticipate the ramifications of the Arab Spring. Not us, not the Americans, nobody predicted what happened in Syria, Libya, Yemen. So today, Saudi Arabia seems stable, but tomorrow, who knows?” Ben-Reuven said.

Efraim Inbar, a professor of Bar Ilan University and veteran Mideast security specialist, said he was doubtful if Washington would be willing or able to commit to a long-term Mideast moratorium on F-35 exports. Citing “enormous political and economic pressure to come” by the US defense industry and its traditional Mideast customer nations, Inbar warned that F-35 sales in this region could trigger the next big battle between a future US administration and Israel.

“The US government managed to sell F-15s to Saudi Arabia despite tremendous pressure from Israel and our friends on Capitol Hill. What’s to say it will be any different with F-35?” Inbar said.

A former Israeli defense official noted that Saudi Arabia was approved to receive its first F-15s in 1978, less than three years after the Israel Air Force. With F-16s, the gap between Israel and Egypt — its Camp David peace partner — was less than two years, while Jordan was authorized for F-16s in 1996, a year after it signed a peace treaty with Israel.

“If we want a sense of what’s in store for us, it’s worthwhile looking back at the F-16 program. It took less than 10 years for it to go to Bahrain and UAE, then it spread to Oman, Morocco and now they’re flying it in Iraq. Who’s next, Lebanon?”

The former official declined to be quoted by name, as he occasionally advises Israel’s MoD on matters of strategic cooperation with Washington.
 
"Here’s what’s happening with Norway’s F-35s"
Publisert av Endre Lunde
11. september 2015

Source:
http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/2015/09/11/norway-f35-whats-happening/

Long-term observer of the F-35, Bill Sweetman today published an article in Aviation Week stating that «Norway considers F-35 Order Cuts» and we wanted to provide a little more context to his article.

Last year our Minister of Defence, Ms. Ine Eriksen Søreide, initiated a new defence review process here in Norway, and as a result, on 1. October 2014, the Minister tasked the Chief of Defence, Admiral Haakon Bruun-Hanssen with providing what can best be translated as a «Formal Military Advice» to the Ministry that would inform a subsequent Long-Term Plan/White Paper, expected in 2016. The advice commissioned by the Minister is to be delivered on 1. October 2015, one year after it started, and will include a broad and detailed review of the entirety of the Armed Forces – including our future Combat Aircraft arm. Any review which did not include this capability, which will be central to our future Armed Forces, would of course be incomplete. Until the formal military advice becomes public, we will not be able to comment on its contents, but it goes without saying that the Armed Forces, as part of their work, have looked at any number of scenarios and options, and we would be very surprised if they had not also considered the F-35 among them. This is a completely normal process, carried out at regular intervals, and one that is mirrored in most other countries.

In terms of the additional cost for operating the future F-35-fleet compared to today’s F-16-fleet it is important to know that this is something we have been aware of for quite some time, and which has already been taken into account in our planning processes. It was also part of the information presented to Parliament when they approved the procurement phase of the F-35 as part of the current Long Term Plan in 2012.

Finally, regarding the JSM, we have already allowed for the cost of Norway having to pay for the full development and integration of the missile on the F-35 (as described in this article from last year). The Norwegian Parliament passed a bill to that effect in June 2014. The reason why we are willing to do so is quite simple – the missile is essential to our ability to deter any adversary from the use of force against Norway. In combination with the F-35, the missile offers even a smaller nation like Norway the ability to strike even well defended targets at range, a capability that we have never had before. And while it is true that no other partner has joined us yet in the development and integration of the JSM on the F-35, it is clear that this kind of capability is of interest to several nations, including Australia, which has already agreed to look for ways to support its development.

(PS: just to clarify, we are planning to buy 52 aircraft, and we have received authority to begin procurement of 22 of them.)
 
Triton said:
"Israel Eyes Exclusive Dibs on F-35"
By Barbara Opall-Rome 9:08 a.m. EDT September 12, 2015

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/09/12/israel-eyes-exclusive-dibs-f-35/72014016/

HERZLIYA, Israel — To convince Israel and its supporters in Congress that the White House truly “has its back” with respect to threats posed by Iran, US President Barack Obama and top Cabinet officials have repeatedly flagged the fact that Israel is the exclusive regional recipient of the F-35, America’s premier stealth strike fighter.

“Indeed, Israel is the only nation in the Middle East to which the United States has sold this fifth-generation aircraft,” Obama wrote in a letter last month to Rep. Jerold Nadler, a New York democrat representing the largest Jewish district in the country.

Some military and political leaders in Israel are pushing to make that regional exclusivity permanent.

Earlier this month, seeking to sway support in Congress for the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) with Iran, Secretary of State John Kerry used nearly identical language as Obama.

In a Sept. 2 letter to lawmakers, Kerry cited F-35s to Israel as a key manifestation of the administration’s commitment to preserve Israel’s so-called qualitative military edge (QME) against regional foes.

“Israel’s first F-35 aircraft will be delivered in 2016, making it the only country in the region with a US fifth-generation fighter aircraft,” Kerry wrote.

And at an Israeli Independence Day celebration last May, Vice President Joe Biden told hundreds gathered at the Israeli Embassy in Washington to thunderous applause: “Next year, we’ll deliver to Israel the F-35, our finest, making Israel the only country in the Middle East with a fifth-generation aircraft. No other.”

Now, as pressure mounts on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to jettison his battle with the White House and accept the president’s offer to fortify Israel’s QME well into the future, experts here and in Washington are urging him to put Obama to the test.

Beyond billions of dollars in additional grant aid and a menu of military modernization needs, experts here said Netanyahu should squeeze out definitive assurances that Israel will remain the exclusive regional operator of the F-35 for years to come.

How long?

“Forever,” quipped retired Maj. Gen. Amos Gilad, the Israeli Defense Ministry’s longtime director of policy and political-military affairs who leads QME-related talks with the Pentagon and State Department.

In a Sept. 7 exchange following a conference address here, Gilad refused to say whether a Mideast moratorium on F-35 exports will be an agenda item in bilateral talks on bolstering Israel’s QME. “They said officially that they won’t sell to anybody [in the region] but Israel,” Gilad told Defense News.

But when pressed for how long Israel expects those commitments to remain in place, Gilad said, “It’s all pertaining to negotiations, and it’s all very complicated. I can’t comment on this subject.”

US Sen. Tom Cotton, junior Republican senator from Arkansas, was similarly cagey when asked during a visit here earlier this month about Israel’s interest in indefinite exclusivity to the F-35.

“I don’t want to discuss specifics, but obviously Israel’s QME depends on what it has when compared against what neighboring countries have. There’s been a lot of talk from this administration about preserving Israel’s edge. But talk is cheap, especially when it comes to the Middle East.”

He added, “I and most members of Congress are 100 percent committed to action — not talk — that will maintain and improve Israel’s QME.”

Amos Yadlin, a retired Israel Air Force major general who directs the Tel Aviv-based Institute for National Security Studies, is a prominent voice in favor of immediate re-engagement with Washington to mitigate political, strategic and operative risks inherent in the nuclear deal with Iran.

“Obviously one of the ways we can work bilaterally to bolster QME and manage risks of the JCPOA is to preserve Israel’s exclusive status with regard to F-35,” Yadlin told Defense News.

That said, he noted that Washington’s allies in the Arabian Gulf also require and deserve US security assurances as a result of the nuclear deal with Iran.

“Balancing the need to preserve and reinforce our QME while, at the same time, answering legitimate concerns of the [Gulf Cooperation Council] will be something of a fine art,” Yadlin said. “Very careful thought and coordination will be required as we move forward.”

When asked about Israel’s interest in maintaining a regional monopoly on the F-35, an Israel Air Force project manager — one of the first pilots selected to fly the fifth-generation fighter — said those types of discussions were well above his pay grade.

“I don’t know what is or isn’t a subject of discussion at the political level. All I can say is I believe the US will not give for the foreseeable future this airplane to countries that can be a problem to Israel.

“If they do, the consequences will be that we won’t have an edge,” the IAF officer said.

In a recent briefing in Washington, F-35 program executives from Lockheed Martin, prime contractor for the stealth strike fighter, said the program has tremendous growth potential. Much like the Lockheed Martin F-16 program, which has produced more than 4,000 jets in four decades, executives projected a similar worldwide market for F-35s in the coming 40 years.

“Last year was the 40th anniversary of the F-16. … There’s no reason to believe that the F-35, 40 years from now, we won't be talking about a program of more than 4,000,” said Steve Over, Lockheed Martin director for F-35 International Business Development.

That said, Over insisted that the firm did not yet have licenses to market F-35s among GCC countries. “We’re definitely not out there marketing F-35s indiscriminately throughout the world,” he said.

“This is a national security issue of the highest order,” said Mike Howe, the company’s F-35 director for Israel and Europe. “We will not get ahead of our government in any way with respect to future sales to other countries.”

Eyal Ben-Reuven, a retired Israeli Army major general and lawmaker from Israel’s opposition Zionist Union party, said the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee to which he belongs is not yet privy to details of the security enhancements Israel plans to secure from Washington. But he said an Israeli request to maintain a long-term Mideast monopoly on the F-35 seemed “highly prudent and reasonable,” given the instability and unpredictability of the region.

“In the last five years, all the intelligence sources, methods and means have completely failed to anticipate the ramifications of the Arab Spring. Not us, not the Americans, nobody predicted what happened in Syria, Libya, Yemen. So today, Saudi Arabia seems stable, but tomorrow, who knows?” Ben-Reuven said.

Efraim Inbar, a professor of Bar Ilan University and veteran Mideast security specialist, said he was doubtful if Washington would be willing or able to commit to a long-term Mideast moratorium on F-35 exports. Citing “enormous political and economic pressure to come” by the US defense industry and its traditional Mideast customer nations, Inbar warned that F-35 sales in this region could trigger the next big battle between a future US administration and Israel.

“The US government managed to sell F-15s to Saudi Arabia despite tremendous pressure from Israel and our friends on Capitol Hill. What’s to say it will be any different with F-35?” Inbar said.

A former Israeli defense official noted that Saudi Arabia was approved to receive its first F-15s in 1978, less than three years after the Israel Air Force. With F-16s, the gap between Israel and Egypt — its Camp David peace partner — was less than two years, while Jordan was authorized for F-16s in 1996, a year after it signed a peace treaty with Israel.

“If we want a sense of what’s in store for us, it’s worthwhile looking back at the F-16 program. It took less than 10 years for it to go to Bahrain and UAE, then it spread to Oman, Morocco and now they’re flying it in Iraq. Who’s next, Lebanon?”

The former official declined to be quoted by name, as he occasionally advises Israel’s MoD on matters of strategic cooperation with Washington.
So if this were 1939-40 we just agreed to let Germany keep forever (even helping protect it from sabotage, yes that language is in the Iran Agreement) its heavy water reactor and any of its atomic program, released to them billions in frozen assets to expand its military, help with V2 development and/or fund its allies all while German leaders continue to publically say they will destroy Britain and America eventually.

Then promised Britain or France (depending on who you think Israel is strategically in this hypothetical??) our P-51s eventually.
 
LowObservable said:
Triton - Maybe they consider that there is no point in making the pod stealthier than the two three-packs of AASM that it's there to support. Crazy, I know.


Sferrin - Bigger optics, basically. Better long-range ID and discrimination and (certainly studied, I am not sure if it is there) inflight generation of templates for the scene-matching version of AASM.

The current operators of Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon) (AASM), also known as HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range), are Egypt, France, Morocco, and Qatar. None of these countries are operators of the F-35. The Obama Administration has banned sales of the F-35 to Gulf Arab states.
 
"Northrop turns up F-35 centre fuselage production tempo"
11 September, 2015 BY: James Drew Washington DC

Source:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/northrop-turns-up-f-35-centre-fuselage-production-te-416661/

Northrop Grumman says it is increasing the production tempo of F-35 centre fuselages, with deliveries to the manufacturer Lockheed Martin quickening from one unit every four work days to one every three.

Once the new schedule is fully implemented, Northrop will have shaved one-and-a-half months off the time it takes to produce the complex piece of military hardware from 11.5 months to 10.

The units are delivered fully wired from Northrop's production plant in Palmdale, California, to Lockheed’s final assembly and checkout facility in Fort Worth, Texas. The current tempo or “production interval” is one delivery every four work days. By comparison, Northrop was churning out one centre fuselage ever eight days when the line first opened in 2011, the company said in a statement.

“This increase in tempo on our F-35 integrated assembly line is part of a coordinated, pre-planned effort by Northrop Grumman and its suppliers to help meet rising F-35 production requirements,” says Northrop vice president and F-35 programme manager Brian Chappel. “It also reflects our steady progress increasing the efficiency of the production line, and the size and skills of our workforce.”
 
LowObservable said:
Sferrin - Bigger optics, basically. Better long-range ID and discrimination and (certainly studied, I am not sure if it is there) inflight generation of templates for the scene-matching version of AASM.

Given the longer standoff range a 4th gen aircraft is going to have to operate at (vs a stealth aircraft) they're going to need those larger optics. Which of course begs the question of if, taken as a system, it would it even be as good as that in the F-35 given the distance/survivability handicap. It's a rhetorical question, for the most part (maybe it's superior, maybe it's not, but it's something to consider). Obviously it's easier to build a new external pod than it is to upgrade new hardware in an integrated system, but it's hardly an endorsement for forgoing a low RCS, but the size of the optics that can fit in the F-35 are going to be limited by the window size (unless they make it bigger down the road).
 
"Air Force to Respond to Recent Criticism of F-35 and KC-46 Aircraft"
by Richard Sisk on September 11, 2015

Source:
http://defensetech.org/2015/09/11/air-force-to-respond-to-recent-criticism-of-f-35-and-kc-35-aircraft/#ixzz3lZt0HlUA
Defense.org

The Air Force will give an update next week at the annual Air and Space Conference on its two most needed yet controversial aircraft programs — the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and the KC-46 Pegasus refueling tanker.

Both projects have recently come under fire from Congress – again. In addition to cost overruns on the $400 billion F-35 program, the fighter’s ability to perform close air support has come into question compared to the aging A-10 Thunderbolt.

The KC-46, developed by Boeing from its 767 series jetliner, has also been hit by cost overruns and questions about Boeing’s ability to meet a deadline to have the aircraft on the ramp and ready for missions by August 2017.

In an Aug. 31 letter to Defense Secretary Ashton Carter, Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, wrote that “I am concerned that the recent problems with the tanker modernization program could prevent the Department of Defense from delivering this critical capability to our warfighters as promised and on schedule.”

The lineup for the Air Force Association’s Air and Space Conference and Technology Exposition at National Harbor, Maryland, on Tuesday includes a panel on the F-35 and the KC-46 led by the main officers in charge of getting both programs back on track – Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan for the F-35, and Brig. Gen. Duke Richardson for the KC-46.

Earlier this month on a visit to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Bogdan, the program executive officer for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Program Office, said the F-35 had gone past the fits-and-starts stage. “We are now growing and accelerating rapidly on this program,” he said.

“We will do everything we can to give the Air Force everything they need” with the F-35, Bogdan said. “If we fall through, the responsibility falls on me.”

Richardson, the program executive officer for tankers at the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, will be working with a new management team at Boeing to get the KC-46 program back on schedule.

In a letter to employees last month, new Boeing President and CEO Dennis Muilenburg said he was working “to ensure that the full extent of Boeing resources and expertise are applied to meet our commitment to deliver the initial 18 tankers in 2017.”
 
LowObservable said:
Triton - so that would be confirmation, then.

I don't believe that an F-35 customer is waiting for AASM integration on the F-35, but that could change in the future. AASM can upgrade 125-kilogram (276 lb), 250-kilogram (550 lb), 500-kilogram (1,100 lb) and 1,000-kilogram (2,200 lb) bomb bodies. I don't know if all of these converted bombs will fit on the internal weapon stations of the F-35, but I would presume that an F-35 customer would want to operate in stealth configuration on Day 1. On Day 2, the F-35 customer could operate two three-packs of converted bombs on external stations. So I wondered why a customer would even want to operate a non-stealth targeting or ISR pod.


sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
Sferrin - Bigger optics, basically. Better long-range ID and discrimination and (certainly studied, I am not sure if it is there) inflight generation of templates for the scene-matching version of AASM.

Given the longer standoff range a 4th gen aircraft is going to have to operate at (vs a stealth aircraft) they're going to need those larger optics. Which of course begs the question of if, taken as a system, it would it even be as good as that in the F-35 given the distance/survivability handicap. It's a rhetorical question, for the most part (maybe it's superior, maybe it's not, but it's something to consider). Obviously it's easier to build a new external pod than it is to upgrade new hardware in an integrated system, but it's hardly an endorsement for forgoing a low RCS, but the size of the optics that can fit in the F-35 are going to be limited by the window size (unless they make it bigger down the road).

Day 2, the F-35 may have non-stealthy weapons attached to external stations and operate as a 4.5 generation aircraft. I don't know if a customer would want to operate non-stealthy pods on Day 2.
 

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Sorry, the confirmation was Endres Lunde's long blog post, which confirmed that the upcoming White Paper inputs from the military include options to cut the F-35 buy.


Also, there isn't any Day 2. Nobody believes that any more. Defensive systems are far more robust than the old Soviet model.
 
They do, JFCF, but SDB is not the ultimate CAS weapon yet. Long TOF and a bit expensive.


And as for weapon loads...


http://media.dma.mil/2006/Oct/05/2000541253/-1/-1/0/061005-F-5420B-036.JPG
 

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