The F-35 Discussion Topic (No Holds Barred II)

The video does hold some truth and does debunk some myth that circulates amongst mass media like fox news and CNN as well as hordes of youtube fanbois, such as stealth sucks blah blah blah. However, where it fails is addressing the more informed criticism against the net benefit and opportunity loss of the entire program.


It certainly does diminish its credential greatly when it cited a misspoken statement to imply that f-35 RCS is better than f-22. Adding bullshit right in the beginning of your presentation is quite counter productive.
 
"Navy need deferred, but F-35 software ‘on the right track’"
by James Drew
August 20, 2015

Source:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/navy-need-deferred-but-f-35-software-on-the-right-415913/

The Lockheed Martin F-35 appears to be overcoming many of the software troubles that have dogged the programme since its inception, but the fighter jet’s complexity means that any attempt to squeeze extra capabilities into early software blocks would threaten the wider rollout schedule.

That has been the experience of the US Navy, which asked the joint programme office (JPO) to consider bringing forward delivery of the wide-area search radar function to Block 3F, but then quietly withdrew the request.

“A request was made to investigate expanding the Block 3F radar techniques to include wide-area search, which was not an original requirement for the 3F capability,” the F-35 JPO explained in an email.

“Implementing this capability in Block 3F would have incurred a significant schedule impact, and would have also required an integration of a new weapon capability to fully deploy the anti-surface warfare mission improvements. Based on this, the warfighter decided to include it in Block 4.1, which will be delivered in 2019.”

The US Navy intends to buy hundreds of carrier-based F-35Cs over the coming decade to replace its legacy F/A-18 Hornets, and is on track to declare initial operational capability with 10 combat-coded jets equipped with Block 3F software in August 2018.

Upon delivery, those aircraft will be capable of finding and tracking ships and other maritime targets using their Northrop Grumman active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, but with a far narrower field of view than will be possible with the wide-area search function. Wide-area search, also known as "Big SAR," was being considered as a baseline capability for the F-35 as far back as 2007, but did not make the cut when Block 3F was defined.

The radar capability’s “deferral” was disclosed in a software development report sent by the Pentagon to US lawmakers in June.

The DOD says in the report that F-35 software development and integration remains a key concern, but the programme “is on the right track and will continue to deliver on the commitments made to the F-35 enterprise” – which includes partner nations and foreign military sale customers . That goes for both the aircraft itself and the troubled Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) that supports it, according to the report.

The report says Block 2B – which the Marine Corps declared IOC with in July – has eight unresolved issues that centre on “sensor fusion, electronic warfare and Link 16 communications,” although those problems “do not interfere with the USMC IOC mission sets” and will be resolved in Block 3F – which Lockheed has already begun flight testing.

The US Air Force, meanwhile, has identified six Block 2B software deficiencies that it needs resolved prior to its IOC declaration with the A-model in August 2016. Those aircraft will be fielded with Block 3i software and a faster computer processor.

“The air force requested improvements in the software to provide clear and timely information concerning the health and status of various sensors on the aircraft,” the JPO says. “The improved software will inform pilots of immediate degradation of the mission system core computers, the radar processing computers, and the tactical situation display.

“The improvements will also provide clearer indication of the field of regard for the radar, and the prioritization of targets. Computer enhancements will also be made to speed up the download times of post-flight data.”

Despite being years behind its original schedule and billions of dollars over budget, the F-35 programme has mostly been meeting its revised targets set in the 2012 re-baselining. The programme is just over 60% of the way through its test programme, and new technical issues could still surface.

But perhaps the biggest programmatic risk at this point is cost. The annual funding requirement is expected to peak at $14 billion in 2022, according to the US Government Accountability Office, and the services plan to spend $54 billion buying 339 aircraft through 2019.

The Pentagon is currently re-assessing its F-35 require.ment of 2,443 aircraft, and the navy is considering reducing the number of F-35Cs it will buy each year.
 
Incorrect on F135 weight, sferrin - the same company rep at the same time confirmed STOVL propulsion weight as 10342 lb.

It's a process called "checking facts".

Why the engine is so ungodly heavy, I don't know. There may be thermal management pieces added on to it. The LP shaft and turbine may have to be oversized to drive the lift fan. There's also a square-cube issue in engine size - smaller engines have higher rpm and less torque, which is why F414/EJ200 have better T/W than the F100/F110.
 
donnage99 said:
The video does hold some truth and does debunk some myth that circulates amongst mass media like fox news and CNN as well as hordes of youtube fanbois, such as stealth sucks blah blah blah. However, where it fails is addressing the more informed criticism against the net benefit and opportunity loss of the entire program.

It certainly does diminish its credential greatly when it cited a misspoken statement to imply that f-35 RCS is better than f-22. Adding bullshit right in the beginning of your presentation is quite counter productive.
lastdingo said:
Triton; the first movie needed a mere 40 seconds till a strawman argument.
I don't think this primitive propaganda is going to convince any F-35 critic whatsoever.

These videos were put together by some of the guys over at F16.net, so they are definitely the F35 'boosters' point of view.


The claim that the F35 is actually stealthier than the F22 tracks back to Air Combat Command chief Gen. Mike Hostage whom I suspect overegged the F35's capabilities whilst talking to the press back in 2014:
The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”

That said, he's also on record as saying the following:
If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.

More details of what was said at the link: http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22
 
Triton said:
"The Marines’ Stealth Jump Jet Plan Is Wishful Thinking"
by Bill Sweetman
March 17, 2015

Source:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/17/the-marines-stealth-jump-jet-plan-is-wishful-thinking.html

The F-35B, the Marine Corps version of the stealthy Joint Strike Fighter, has the shortest range and the smallest payload of any of the F-35 variants. It’s also the most expensive, with a unit price tag of $140 million, not including R&D. The Marines’ requirements—to do short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) and fit aboard the ships the Corps uses—dictated the use of a single engine and drove the internal layout of the fuselage.

Marine Corps leaders have been confident that the F-35B alone will deliver strategic options that justify its price and its impact on the Air Force and Navy versions. That’s a tall order. A Marine expeditionary force is organized around a single amphibious warfare ship, classified as an LHA or an LHD. These are 50,000-ton warships but they have to carry Marines, their equipment, and helicopters as well as jet fighters. Normally, the air combat element includes just six Harrier “jump jets,” and no force of six aircraft has won a war yet.

The idea behind the Marine Harrier force has always been that it can expand beyond the ship’s capacity, by using shore bases that other fighters cannot reach: short civilian runways or even stretches of road. This kind of operation has been performed by the Marines, in combat, exactly three times in the 40-year history of the Harrier force.

The question today is a simple one: What scenario can we contemplate where you need supersonic, stealthy multi-role fighters, but you don’t need the full carrier air wing? In the past few months, the Marines have rolled out some potential answers.

Corps commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford told a House defense appropriations subcommittee in late February that a shipboard detachment of four to eight F-35Bs would deliver “the same kind of access” in “high-risk regions” as a joint strike package today that would include “cruise missiles, fighter aircraft, electronic-warfare platforms, aircraft which specialize in suppression and destruction of enemy air defenses, and strike aircraft.” The F-35 detachment is “a day-one, full-spectrum capability against the most critical and prohibitive threats,” Dunford said.

On land, the Marines would use a new concept of operations known as distributed STOVL operations (DSO), said Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, Marine deputy commandant for aviation. The idea behind DSO is to obtain the advantages of forward basing—deeper reach and faster response—while keeping people, aircraft and equipment on the ground safe from counterattack from threats that are likely to include guided tactical ballistic missiles.

Mobility is the key. The plan calls for mobile forward arming and refueling points—improvised bases that supply fuel, ammunition, and the minimum support necessary to turn jets between sorties. The idea is that they can moved around the theater inside the adversary’s targeting cycle—assumed to be 24-48 hours—so that they can survive without being accompanied by anti-missile defenses. Decoy bases would be established to complicate the enemy’s targeting problem.

Both the small shipboard unit and the DSO idea have obvious problems.

Dunford’s eight-aircraft detachment would be kept very busy sustaining combat air patrols, providing over-the-horizon intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and performing close air support and strike. Britain’s new aircraft carriers are 70,000-ton ships because the operations analysts calculated that a stand-alone air wing would need 24 aircraft to cover those missions.

Without a carrier, Dunford’s force has no persistent ISR or airborne early warning—and any nation qualifying as a high-risk threat will have anti-ship cruise missiles on fast attack craft, on trucks or masked in commercial containers. Airborne early warning was invented in World War II in the Pacific, because by the time the kamikazes appeared on the horizon, it was too late for an effective defense. The same goes for this new breed of cruise missiles.

DSO sounds like an adventure in logistics. The Marines’ biggest wartime off-base Harrier operation, in 1991 during Desert Storm, was supported by 45 8,000-gallon tanker trucks, and the F-35B is more than twice the Harrier’s size. Davis envisages that in some cases, the new improvised base will be supplied by KC-130J tankers—but each sortie will deliver five F-35B-loads of fuel at best. As was finally confirmed in the run-up to last year’s Farnborough air show, the F-35’s exhaust is tough on runways: Many tons of metal planking will be needed to protect poor-quality runways or roads, even in a rolling vertical landing. It will have to be moved on the same cycle as the rest of the mobile base.

Force protection could be a challenge. The mobile base will need either a huge sanitized zone or its own active defense against rockets, mortars, and shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, which no practical decoy or jammer will distract from the F-35B’s exhaust.

These ambitious operational concepts should be tested, in force-level exercises against an aggressive and independent Red team, before we get much further into the $48 billion F-35B procurement. There could be no better use for the first F-35B squadron, once Marine leaders declare it ready for combat later this year.

Wow, that's certainly some BS right there. Since 6 aircraft have never won a war we should kill the F-35. Brilliant. Hey Bill, how about we test the Typhoon solo against a couple of Aegis cruisers and if any aircraft are lost we kill the program and scrap the Typhoons? We want to make sure you're getting your money's worth after all. You'd be good with that right? Right? The reader will notice that he didn't suggest we should run the Harrier through the same tests as the F-35B and jettison the aircraft that's performs the worst of the two. Hmmmm, I wonder why.
 
donnage99 said:
The video does hold some truth and does debunk some myth that circulates amongst mass media like fox news and CNN as well as hordes of youtube fanbois, such as stealth sucks blah blah blah. However, where it fails is addressing the more informed criticism against the net benefit and opportunity loss of the entire program.

Oh look, somebody else who thinks if we cancelled the F-35 we'd end up with better aircraft sooner and for less money. Could you explain how that would work in the real world?


donnage99 said:
It certainly does diminish its credential greatly when it cited a misspoken statement to imply that f-35 RCS is better than f-22. Adding bullshit right in the beginning of your presentation is quite counter productive.

Could you please post your RCS measurements that show he's wrong? I'd be very interested in seeing them.
 
LowObservable said:
Incorrect on F135 weight, sferrin - the same company rep at the same time confirmed STOVL propulsion weight as 10342 lb.

It's a process called "checking facts".

I never gave a specific weight. As for "checking facts" it wouldn't be the first time a PR person has got them wrong. God knows you don't accept them at face value when they state the F-35 outperforms the Typhoon aerodynamically. ;)

LowObservable said:
Why the engine is so ungodly heavy, I don't know. There may be thermal management pieces added on to it. The LP shaft and turbine may have to be oversized to drive the lift fan. There's also a square-cube issue in engine size - smaller engines have higher rpm and less torque, which is why F414/EJ200 have better T/W than the F100/F110.

In other words might not be an apples-to-apples comparison, and any F414 variant tailored to the same requirements might have ended up heavier as well. Also note that the F135 is relatively early in it's life cycle with a lot of room for growth in the thrust dept. As you're well aware they've already run one at 50,000lbs+
 
JeffB said:
These videos were put together by some of the guys over at F16.net, so they are definitely the F35 'boosters' point of view.

Did they actually say anything that was objectively, demonstrably, incorrect or are you just resorting to attacking the messenger? I'd trust those at F-16.net (you know, actual fighter pilots, engineers, etc.) a hell of a lot more than Joe Blow Blogger, who has no actual working knowledge, and who's main incentive is getting clicks. YMMV.

JeffB said:
That said, he's also on record as saying the following:
If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.

More details of what was said at the link: http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22

I could easily see a USAF general saying the same re. the F-15/16 back in the late 70s. The F-16 and Hornet/Super Hornet weren't designed as air-superiority aircraft either. I presume you're convinced they're also inept at air combat?
 
Part of the problem with the F-35 debate is that you never know whom you can really trust.

Civilian government officials insiders need to be loyal until the program is completed or cancelled.
Same for true insider officers, and they appear desperate to get teh F-35 done because to them it's "F-35 or 70's designs for the next 15 years". They're in a golden cage, so their defence of the F-35 may be driven by the fact that many costs are sunk already and not be a fair appraisal of the program as a whole.
Finally, LM is corrupting way too many people with money directly or indirectly. Subcontractors in almsot all states, almost all congressional districts, almsot all countries who plan to buy F-35. An astroturf blogger who never disclosed he was working for LM more or less directly, generals expecting a huge after-retirement income by "consulting" for LM.

Vested interests tore the credibility of almost all F-35 proponents away.

The elected representatives of the people do not exercise stern oversight, so the people attempt to do it themselves, attracted by the ginormous past and projected budgets.

It's in part the old conflict; when the people begin to pay attention, the technocrats attempt to stay in 100% control and there we got tensions. The technocrats claim everything is fine and the laymen have no clue, the taxpayers express their disbelief that the program is worth that much money and suspect incompetence.
This gets really mesy if there's actually a lot that went wrong, such as delays, budget overruns, price lowballing, other lies, conflict of interest, politicized subcontractor choices etc..
 
lastdingo said:
Part of the problem with the F-35 debate is that you never know whom you can really trust.

Civilian government officials insiders need to be loyal until the program is completed or cancelled.
Same for true insider officers, and they appear desperate to get teh F-35 done because to them it's "F-35 or 70's designs for the next 15 years".

If the 70s designs were actually better they'd be happy being "stuck with them" vs going to an inferior jet. This is where detractors are in full-on tinfoil hat mode. For some unknown reason, every F-35 user is apparently part of a giant conspiracy to get rid of superior jets and outfit their militaries with pigs.



lastdingo said:
It's in part the old conflict; when the people begin to pay attention, the technocrats attempt to stay in 100% control and there we got tensions. The technocrats claim everything is fine and the laymen have no clue, the taxpayers express their disbelief that the program is worth that much money and suspect incompetence.
This gets really mesy if there's actually a lot that went wrong, such as delays, budget overruns, price lowballing, other lies, conflict of interest, politicized subcontractor choices etc..

There is a far simpler explanation requiring much less tinfoil. The more advanced/complex a thing gets the more difficult it becomes to know exactly how much a thing will cost and how long it will take. Joe Blow on the street has no concept of how complex this stuff is, no frame of reference. Sure, you get the people with the relevant experience (which are getting increasingly more difficult to find), and you come as close as you can, with the information you have, but you will never get it 100% correct. There's a saying in software that is just as applicable here: On time, on budget, meets all requirements. Pick any two. Hell, I'm still waiting for Obamacare to save me $2500 on insurance every year. How well do you think THAT is working out?
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
edit: (How many times are we going to post this article BTW?)

I believe that this was the first time that this article was posted. I verified with Search. If it's redundant, I apologize.

You appear to be correct. It made the rounds to all the aviation sites back in March when it came out. Since it was at least the dozenth time I'd seen it posted I thought I'd seen it here as well (or some variation of it).
 
It might help the discussion along if you could cite all the other manufacturers claiming that a 6-8 ship unit of their aircraft could provide full-spectrum air support to a standalone task force.

Also, do you think it's strange to give more credence to a four-to-five significant figures statement on a single number than to a very broad claim about kinematics?
Maybe you should be spending your time exclusively on that other board where the true expertise resides.
 
LowObservable said:
It might help the discussion along if you could cite all the other manufacturers claiming that a 6-8 ship unit of their aircraft could provide full-spectrum air support to a standalone task force.

It might be helpful if you showed me where I said anybody did.

LowObservable said:
Also, do you think it's strange to give more credence to a four-to-five significant figures statement on a single number than to a very broad claim about kinematics?

Maybe you could show me where I gave weight to any number? I didn't give weight to any number, I simply pointed out that you seem to cherry pick which PR statements you're going to agree with or attack. IMO PR is just that. And they're notorious for getting things wrong (for good or ill).

LowObservable said:
Maybe you should be spending your time exclusively on that other board where the true expertise resides.

I don't frequent the FoxtrotAlphas of the world. (Secret Projects isn't a "news" site / blog.)


(Must have struck a nerve for you to go all personal. Throwing my profession out there? Tacky.)[/quote]
 
LowObservable said:
It might help the discussion along if you could cite all the other manufacturers claiming that a 6-8 ship unit of their aircraft could provide full-spectrum air support to a standalone task force.

Also, do you think it's strange to give more credence to a four-to-five significant figures statement on a single number than to a very broad claim about kinematics? I thought ***** paid you to be an engineer.

Maybe you should be spending your time exclusively on that other board where the true expertise resides.

You're actually right on this one. There is considerably more expertise on that forum.

This F-35 no holds barred discussion here is pretty close to expert-free, from what I can tell.

If you had all the F-22, -16 (from multiple JSF partner nations), -18, C-17, A-10C pilots, and the assorted maintainers and aerodynamicists in the discussion all raise their hands at once, you'd have 0 hands in the air, wouldn't you?

So, if I have to pick where I get my information and content, do I go play in the sandbox at Keypubs and talk about how fast the neat-o airplanes go, or do I go to F-16.net with pilots from almost every country involved in JSF?

Don't answer. I'm good.
 
BioLuminescentLamprey said:
LowObservable said:
It might help the discussion along if you could cite all the other manufacturers claiming that a 6-8 ship unit of their aircraft could provide full-spectrum air support to a standalone task force.

Also, do you think it's strange to give more credence to a four-to-five significant figures statement on a single number than to a very broad claim about kinematics? I thought ***** paid you to be an engineer.

Maybe you should be spending your time exclusively on that other board where the true expertise resides.

You're actually right on this one. There is considerably more expertise on that forum.

This F-35 no holds barred discussion here is pretty close to expert-free, from what I can tell.

If you had all the F-22, -16 (from multiple JSF partner nations), -18, C-17, A-10C pilots, and the assorted maintainers and aerodynamicists in the discussion all raise their hands at once, you'd have 0 hands in the air, wouldn't you?

So, if I have to pick where I get my information and content, do I go play in the sandbox at Keypubs and talk about how fast the neat-o airplanes go, or do I go to F-16.net with pilots from almost every country involved in JSF?

Don't answer. I'm good.

LO was being sarcastic. ;)
 
Well, good on both of you. But why do you hang out here or (in some cases) try to stick your oar in at other places, if they are so worthless?


Since when did I mention your profession, Sferrin? I talked about your employment.


And "I must have struck a nerve" is the mating call of the troll, as we all know. BHD. If I had a dollar for every nerve I struck...
 
Side question on F-35: has anyone done a study on the minimum level of capability needed for a F-16 replacement? Does the F-35 match or greatly exceed that minimum capability?

Because sinking a ton of development time and money into a F-16 replacement, when the USAF / USN don't have a significant long range capability for the Pacific / Iran theater, I think will be seen as a massive procurement mistake. 100 LRS-B's are $500 million a piece are too few to give high-volume / dispersed strike capability.

lastdingo - what blogger had a contract with Lockheed?
 
The "minimum" requirement varies from customer to customer & service to service.


Some customers need it for primarily A2G while others will depend on it for A2A as well as A2G.


The minimum for the USAF, the largest customer, is for a multi-role fighter that can go it alone (self-escort) in heavily denied environments.
 
SpudmanWP said:
The minimum for the USAF, the largest customer, is for a multi-role fighter that can go it alone (self-escort) in heavily denied environments.

Was there any analysis which showed that the most common USAF aircraft had to be capable of 'self-escort' in a heavily denied environment? That has never been the case for the most common fighter, only specialized strike planes were expected to operate in heavily denied environments.

Furthermore, the USAF is going away from 'self-escort' for all levels of strike. From what has been hinted elsewhere, the LRS-B will be part of a system of systems to penetrate and survive in A2/AD areas. If the premier new bomber needs escort support, then surely the F-35 will need escort support.

Perhaps this was the bridge too far, the F-35 was designed to go alone. By the time the F-35 is complete, it will need a strike package to penetrate highly defended environments.
 
DrRansom said:
SpudmanWP said:
The minimum for the USAF, the largest customer, is for a multi-role fighter that can go it alone (self-escort) in heavily denied environments.

Was there any analysis which showed that the most common USAF aircraft had to be capable of 'self-escort' in a heavily denied environment? That has never been the case for the most common fighter, only specialized strike planes were expected to operate in heavily denied environments.


You seem to forget that EVERYONE is going towards multi-role fighters and AWAY from specialized fighters.

Furthermore, the USAF is going away from 'self-escort' for all levels of strike. From what has been hinted elsewhere, the LRS-B will be part of a system of systems to penetrate and survive in A2/AD areas. If the premier new bomber needs escort support, then surely the F-35 will need escort support.

LRS-B is a B-52/1/2 replacement and is not meant to replace tactical fighter penetration missions. LRS-B also has nothing to do with the USMC or USN.
 
SpudmanWP said:
You seem to forget that EVERYONE is going towards multi-role fighters and AWAY from specialized fighters.

The US is the only country in the world who can benefit from economy of scale. While other countries drop down to 50 aircraft, mandating that each fighter do everything, the US can specialize it's fighters because the US can buy enough aircraft. Why should the US buy more expensive planes when it doesn't have to.


LRS-B is a B-52/1/2 replacement and is not meant to replace tactical fighter penetration missions. LRS-B also has nothing to do with the USMC or USN.

When did tactical fighter penetration missions not require some support aircraft? WW2 required Flack Suppression, Vietnam required Wild Weasels, Cold War required Wild Weasels. The concept that the most common fighter must be able to 'self-escort' is a historical aberration. If we were to keep with the trends for the fighter capability, a JSF would be survivable in defended environments, but would require escort for the heavily defended parts.

Now that the future of ADN has arrived, the F-35 will require escorts. That will put pressure on the F-35, as the plane already needs a hardware upgrade to meet current software requirements (see story mentioned above). It also puts pressure on the limited F-22 force, which was cut to support the 'self-escorting' F-35 fleet. There is some irony here.
 
DrRansom said:
The US is the only country in the world who can benefit from economy of scale.
Since all F-35s are part of the same production & development run, they ALL benefit from economy of scale.


While other countries drop down to 50 aircraft, mandating that each fighter do everything, the US can specialize it's fighters because the US can buy enough aircraft. Why should the US buy more expensive planes when it doesn't have to.
Given that they "could" yet decide not to should tell you that the benefits of a mostly multi-role force outweighs any potential benefit of specialized fighters.

When did tactical fighter penetration missions not require some support aircraft? WW2 required Flack Suppression, Vietnam required Wild Weasels, Cold War required Wild Weasels. The concept that the most common fighter must be able to 'self-escort' is a historical aberration. If we were to keep with the trends for the fighter capability, a JSF would be survivable in defended environments, but would require escort for the heavily defended parts.
Historically missions required an escort because technology did not allow fighters to do more than one mission without severely sacrificing capability.

Now that the future of ADN has arrived, the F-35 will require escorts.
There is no system either fielded or soon-to-be-fielded that will require the F-35 to be escorted for a majority of their missions. Will there be times where escorts will give the package a greater chance of success, sure, but it will be a minority of the missions, not the majority.


By going back to the old paradigm of specialized aircraft you ensure that MOST of your mission require escorts & supporting assets which will increase cost (in money and manpower) and will cost lives.


as the plane already needs a hardware upgrade to meet current software requirements (see story mentioned above).
Which story?
 
sferrin said:
JeffB said:
These videos were put together by some of the guys over at F16.net, so they are definitely the F35 'boosters' point of view.

Did they actually say anything that was objectively, demonstrably, incorrect or are you just resorting to attacking the messenger? I'd trust those at F-16.net (you know, actual fighter pilots, engineers, etc.) a hell of a lot more than Joe Blow Blogger, who has no actual working knowledge, and who's main incentive is getting clicks. YMMV.

JeffB said:
That said, he's also on record as saying the following:
If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.

More details of what was said at the link: http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22

I could easily see a USAF general saying the same re. the F-15/16 back in the late 70s. The F-16 and Hornet/Super Hornet weren't designed as air-superiority aircraft either. I presume you're convinced they're also inept at air combat?

I'm just saying you might need to adjust your set slightly to compensate for the confirmation bias, YMMV also.

But you tell me Sferrin, do you think the claims made in the videos, that the F35's cross section is "much smaller than the F22's" are based on any factual evidence or are they based solely on the contradictory statements of General Hostage? What about that the F35's stealth coatings including materials that "absorb" VHF radar despite the fact that the physical effect which makes an aircraft detectable via VHF radars is dependent on the aircraft's size and isn't related to its coatings at all? I've been following along for a while but I don't remember anyone updating the laws of physics for that case. I could be wrong though, if so please provide the details. Are VHF radar sites, as it states in the second video, really "easy targets for long range missiles"? Since we know that they routinely protect such sites with quite sophisticated close-in air defences, do you think dismissing the threat of AESA VHF radars as a myth represents a mature and intelligent consideration of the facts as they are known or merely wishful thinking?

Did you actually see someone saying that the F16 was irrelevant without the F15 back in the 70's Sferrin? You'd think someone saying something like that would be pretty common knowledge, especially in this crowd. Did someone actually say that or are you just attacking the messenger too?
 
SpudmanWP said:
You seem to forget that EVERYONE is going towards multi-role fighters and AWAY from specialized fighters.

J-20, T-50 ?? Both seem pretty specialized to me.
 
Both are multi-role fighters with the J-20 having an eye on longer ranges.
 
SpudmanWP said:
Both are multi-role fighters with the J-20 having an eye on longer ranges.
Oh you mean like the way the F22 is a multi-role fighter with an eye to higher altitude, higher speed performance?
 
JeffB said:
But you tell me Sferrin, do you think the claims made in the videos, that the F35's cross section is "much smaller than the F22's" are based on any factual evidence or are they based solely on the contradictory statements of General Hostage? What about that the F35's stealth coatings including materials that "absorb" VHF radar despite the fact that the physical effect which makes an aircraft detectable via VHF radars is dependent on the aircraft's size and isn't related to its coatings at all? I've been following along for a while but I don't remember anyone updating the laws of physics for that case. I could be wrong though, if so please provide the details. Are VHF radar sites, as it states in the second video, really "easy targets for long range missiles"? Since we know that they routinely protect such sites with quite sophisticated close-in air defences, do you think dismissing the threat of AESA VHF radars as a myth represents a mature and intelligent consideration of the facts as they are known or merely wishful thinking?

So you have no actual hard evidence of the relative sizes of the F-22s and F-35s RCS? A simple "no" would have sufficed. And what I think is irrelevant to that particular question.

JeffB said:
Did you actually see someone saying that the F16 was irrelevant without the F15 back in the 70's Sferrin? You'd think someone saying something like that would be pretty common knowledge, especially in this crowd. Did someone actually say that or are you just attacking the messenger too?

Attacking what messenger exactly? I simply said that I could see somebody making the same argument back in the day applied to the F-15/F-16. The F-15 was the USAF's new "gold plated", rule the air, air superiority aircraft. The F-16 was a 2-heat seeker (four if they were feeling ambitious) and a cannon, day fighter. Without the F-15s taking care of things like Mig-23s and Mig-25s (both of which thoroughly out gunned the F-16 at the time) the F-16s would have lead short and very exciting lives. But did somebody specifically say, "without the F-15 the F-16 is irrelevant"? I never claimed anybody did. It seems pretty obvious though, given that several NATO generals were not thrilled with the idea of giving up their F-4s for F-16s specifically because of that short-coming.[/quote]
 
JeffB said:
SpudmanWP said:
Both are multi-role fighters with the J-20 having an eye on longer ranges.
Oh you mean like the way the F22 is a multi-role fighter with an eye to higher altitude, higher speed performance?

What percentage of the US fighter fleet is comprised of F-22s?
 
JeffB said:
SpudmanWP said:
Both are multi-role fighters with the J-20 having an eye on longer ranges.
Oh you mean like the way the F22 is a multi-role fighter with an eye to higher altitude, higher speed performance?
The F-22 has no HMD, No IRST, No FLIR, and relatively small bays, and did not receive A2G modes until much later.


Even given that, it's not a specialized fighter but as you said, a multi-role fighter with a focus on one aspect of it's capability.
 
Wasn't sure if I should have placed this article here or in the "Continuing relevance of the A-10" topic.


"Welsh: F-35 vs. A-10 Testing a 'Silly Exercise'"
By Lara Seligman 6:26 p.m. EDT August 24, 2015

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/support/2015/08/24/welsh-f-35-vs--10-testing--silly-exercise/32292147/

The Air Force is pushing back on reports the Pentagon's top weapons tester is planning to pit the F-35 joint strike fighter against the legacy A-10 Warthog for comparative testing, arguing such an exercise would be irrelevant in light of the new jet's capability.

"I think that would be a silly exercise," Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh said Monday during a press conference at the Pentagon when asked about the reports, adding that he is unaware of plans for any comparative testing between the two aircraft.

The F-35 will be able to perform high-threat close-air support in contested environments the A-10 could never survive, Welsh told reporters, although he noted the aircraft won't be fully operational until 2021 and beyond.

The fighter jet is designed "with the entire battlespace in mind" — it is equipped with advanced stealth, integrated avionics and an integrated sensor package, which will provide the pilot enhanced situational awareness, said F-35 Joint Program Office spokesman Joe DellaVedova.

The plane has proven its ability to conduct close-air support missions at night and during the day, according to DellaVedova. During exercises, the aircraft was able to receive targets from terminal air controllers on the ground, and then attack and prosecute targets in a timely manner, he said.

Still, Welsh noted the Air Force never intended to use the multi-role fighter jet as a direct replacement for the A-10, which is a single-mission platform dedicated to close-in attack.

"The idea that the F-35 is going to walk in this door next year when it [reaches initial operational capability] and take over for the A-10 is just silly," Welsh said. "It has never been our intent and we've never said that, so that's not a plan."

Welsh said he would like to see an A-10 replacement, often referred to as A-X, that can perform the low-threat CAS mission even better than the legacy Warthog. Service officials have recently indicated a notional A-X might be in the works.

The Air Force has been trying to retire the aging A-10 for several years to save money — as much as $4.2 billion over the next five years. However, defenders of the program, including several prominent members of Congress, accuse the Air Force of abandoning troops on the ground by retiring the plane without a dedicated CAS replacement.

Given the tight budget environment, retiring the A-10 is a crucial step in the Air Force's plans to modernize its fleet, Secretary Deborah Lee James said during the press conference.

"If we had billions and billions and billions of additional dollars over the President's Budget level — and I'll remind you we are struggling to get the President's Budget level approved — but if we had billions more we would love to maintain the A-10," James said. "But in a budget-constrained environment, this is one of the tough choices that we had to make for the sake of moving forward and modernizing."
 
Triton said:
sferrin said:
Wow, that's certainly some BS right there.

I guess a discussion, and/or rebuttal, was too much to hope for concerning this article.

Did you read it? It's difficult to even take it seriously.
 
sferrin said:
Oh look, somebody else who thinks if we cancelled the F-35 we'd end up with better aircraft sooner and for less money. Could you explain how that would work in the real world?
Once again, you put words in my mouth. Never said we should cancel it, nor do I think we should at this point. Is this debate really worth your blatant effort of discarding your dignity?

Could you please post your RCS measurements that show he's wrong? I'd be very interested in seeing them.
In the absence of any human intellect, I might do that for you. But I assume you're so emotionally attached to this thing, you forgot the 20 something years of the JSF development, in which ALL reports and articles point to its stealth specs being lower than that of the f-22.
 
SpudmanWP said:
JeffB said:
SpudmanWP said:
Both are multi-role fighters with the J-20 having an eye on longer ranges.
Oh you mean like the way the F22 is a multi-role fighter with an eye to higher altitude, higher speed performance?
The F-22 has no HMD, No IRST, No FLIR, and relatively small bays, and did not receive A2G modes until much later.
Even given that, it's not a specialized fighter but as you said, a multi-role fighter with a focus on one aspect of it's capability.
Of course it's a specialized fighter Spud, come on. It's an air dominance fighter plain and simple. That was always it's intent. It's not a ground attack aircraft, it was never intended to be an ground attack aircraft, the fact that it can act as a very effective strike aircraft is not so much part of its design as a multi-role fighter but an afterthought that was added on to the aircraft's capabilities in an attempt to keep the manufacturing lines open.

Similarly, neither the T-50 or the J-20 are 'multi-role' fighters either. They're pretty obviously designed to be high altitude, high speed penetrators and interceptors specifically intended to attack tankers and AWACs aircraft.

sferrin said:
Did they actually say anything that was objectively, demonstrably, incorrect or are you just resorting to attacking the messenger?
...
So you have no actual hard evidence of the relative sizes of the F-22s and F-35s RCS? A simple "no" would have sufficed. And what I think is irrelevant to that particular question.
Cute. Given that the US congress specifically banned the F22 from export to protect it's stealth technology (unless you subscribe to the theory that the restriction was intended solely to starve the aircraft of FMS customers) why would they allow the export of what you and the makers of these videos claim are far more effective stealth coatings? Indeed if the coatings are as effective as claimed, based on the F35's lack of rear quarter RCS reduction shaping, F16s and F15s could have their respective RCS values reduced dramatically simply by application of this 'magic' new coating material. In addition, why, given the ongoing controversy over the F35 and it's design and the near continuous series of stories questioning it's delays and expense, haven't the manufacturers been out shouting that the aircraft is "far stealthier" than the F22 from the rooftops if that is indeed the case? On balance, it doesn't seem very likely that the claim made by Gen. Hostage is accurate does it? I'd say that counts as 'demonstrably' false.

But apart from that, I'm pretty sure that the VHF radar absorbing coating is a load of hooey, unless you have information to the contrary? That would be a second demonstrably false claim wouldn't it? How about the "VHF radar sites are easy targets for long range missiles" claim? I don't think anyone in the US military is willing to dismiss the threat of these systems as "easy targets for long range missiles", do you?

As you say, F-16.net does have some knowledgeable contributors, that doesn't mean they don't put on their rose-coloured glasses sometimes.
 
sferrin said:
Did you read it? It's difficult to even take it seriously.

You don't believe any of the following are issues?

Dunford’s eight-aircraft detachment would be kept very busy sustaining combat air patrols, providing over-the-horizon intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and performing close air support and strike. Britain’s new aircraft carriers are 70,000-ton ships because the operations analysts calculated that a stand-alone air wing would need 24 aircraft to cover those missions.

Without a carrier, Dunford’s force has no persistent ISR or airborne early warning—and any nation qualifying as a high-risk threat will have anti-ship cruise missiles on fast attack craft, on trucks or masked in commercial containers. Airborne early warning was invented in World War II in the Pacific, because by the time the kamikazes appeared on the horizon, it was too late for an effective defense. The same goes for this new breed of cruise missiles.

DSO sounds like an adventure in logistics. The Marines’ biggest wartime off-base Harrier operation, in 1991 during Desert Storm, was supported by 45 8,000-gallon tanker trucks, and the F-35B is more than twice the Harrier’s size. Davis envisages that in some cases, the new improvised base will be supplied by KC-130J tankers—but each sortie will deliver five F-35B-loads of fuel at best. As was finally confirmed in the run-up to last year’s Farnborough air show, the F-35’s exhaust is tough on runways: Many tons of metal planking will be needed to protect poor-quality runways or roads, even in a rolling vertical landing. It will have to be moved on the same cycle as the rest of the mobile base.

Force protection could be a challenge. The mobile base will need either a huge sanitized zone or its own active defense against rockets, mortars, and shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, which no practical decoy or jammer will distract from the F-35B’s exhaust.
 
JeffB said:
Similarly, neither the T-50 or the J-20 are 'multi-role' fighters either. They're pretty obviously designed to be high altitude, high speed penetrators and interceptors specifically intended to attack tankers and AWACs aircraft.


There are two things that show that both the T-50 and J-20 are multi-role fighters.


The bay size of the T-50 shows that the it is designed for weapons that are larger than AAMs that a LO fighter would need to carry.


The location of the IRST/FLIR under the nose shows that will be used to look for surface targets.
 

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