The F-35 Discussion Topic (No Holds Barred II)

Six was Spud's number. Go yell at him.

As for the AV-8B-loaded LHD, it's been done how many times, in a real operation? Is it routinely exercised? Changing the mix of aircraft on a ship so drastically is nontrivial.

Yes, counterair adds a weapon to the ship. Next question: in how many scenarios does a small counter-air capability generate new options?

Well, yes, a pod has an RCS penalty. That wasn't the point in question. It has weight and drag, which I suspect anyone vaguely conversant with the laws of physics might agree with. By the way, a conformal EO system adds weight and drag - and does so when cover over the target is 8/8ths and you might as well have left it at home.

Obviously, the F-35 can use all its sensors, including ESM, quasi-IRST and EO-DAS, for what they are worth. None of this solves the basic problem of time-on-station, in any persistent surveillance role.
 
SpudmanWP said:
It's not just a LHD problem.

Countries the world over are building Multi-role fighters because having specialized ones is too expensive.

Except for very few exceptions, having "specialized planes" is a bad idea. Only the largest militarizes still employ "small" amounts of specialized planes and are in most cases reducing their numbers (EA-6, A-10, Harrier, etc).
Many countries are buying multi-role aircraft because they offer the best bang-for-buck, especially for smaller players who can't come at the expense of dedicated interceptors, ground-attack or airborne early warning. AWACS, tankers, F22, EA18 are all specialized aircraft that are only a bad idea from an economic standpoint for nations who can't afford them. The Chinese are building the J-20, probably as a specialized AWACS/tanker killer. The Russians are building the T-50 for...well probably for a similar purpose or as a air superiority fighter. Even the US is building the F35B as a replacement for the retiring AV-8B, so the larger players certainly don't think specialized designs are a bad idea.

SpudmanWP said:
No podded solution can be integrated as tightly as an internal one. Take EOTS for example, because it's internal it is a more stable platform and has a higher-speed link to the avionics.

btw, if you carry limited number of "pods" then you are exposing yourself to not being able to execute the mission due to lack of equipment. This is the main driver to the F-35 carrying everything, day one. Large purchases drives down costs.
I don't think stability is as big an issue as you make out as it can be compensated for both mechanically and electronically. Alignment can be an issue where that is important but those applications are relatively limited. Connection speeds are going to be close to light-speed less overhead and attenuation for protocols and conductors so again aren't really as big a problem as you make out (I think).

A limited number of pods may indeed be an issue in some circumstances. Although, large purchases of components of one type, while cheaper, may open you to the possibility, should they suddenly become obsolete, of having to start again and build a million more (cheaper) widgets of the new design and bulldoze the old obsolete ones into landfill at enormous cost.

sferrin said:
Clearly what I said sailed over your head like an SR-71 as your A-10 pilot would be the next guy in need of rescue.
Yep. Sorry, still not getting your point.
 
LowObservable said:
As for the AV-8B-loaded LHD, it's been done how many times, in a real operation? Is it routinely exercised? Changing the mix of aircraft on a ship so drastically is nontrivial.

Whenever they've needed it. Just because they don't deploy that way every time they leave port doesn't mean they don't know how to use the option if they need it. (Which seems to be what you're implying.)

LowObservable said:
Yes, counterair adds a weapon to the ship. Next question: in how many scenarios does a small counter-air capability generate new options?

42 Obviously the USMC sees the value as they're the largest operator of the Harrier (by far), and have decades of experience in seeing where they're useful and where they could be better. Thus the F-35B. Integral counter air capability means maybe you don't need to tie up a CVN (among other things).

LowObservable said:
Well, yes, a pod has an RCS penalty. That wasn't the point in question. It has weight and drag, which I suspect anyone vaguely conversant with the laws of physics might agree with. By the way, a conformal EO system adds weight and drag - and does so when cover over the target is 8/8ths and you might as well have left it at home.

How often have they left Sniper/LANTIRN pods home because "cover over the target was 8/8ths"?

LowObservable said:
Obviously, the F-35 can use all its sensors, including ESM, quasi-IRST and EO-DAS, for what they are worth. None of this solves the basic problem of time-on-station, in any persistent surveillance role.
How are the QEs planning to handle that?
 
sferrin said:
42 Obviously the USMC sees the value as they're the largest operator of the Harrier (by far), and have decades of experience in seeing where they're useful and where they could be better. Thus the F-35B.

No, STOVL is the only excuse for USMC fixed wing combat air because the F-18s could just as well be of the regular navy.

The USMC has an institutional interest in being as large, prestiguious and well-funded as possible (ordinary bureaucracy desires) and thus wants marien fixed wing combat aviation. A STOVL requirement - worthwhile or not - was their ticket for it.
 
The USMC flys STOVL (AV-8B & F-35B) because they want CAS close, on time, and under their own control.


If it were up to them, they would not be buying any F-35Cs. The USMC is being forced into taking F-35Cs by the Navy who will not allow F-35Bs on the supercarriers.
 
lastdingo said:
sferrin said:
42 Obviously the USMC sees the value as they're the largest operator of the Harrier (by far), and have decades of experience in seeing where they're useful and where they could be better. Thus the F-35B.

No, STOVL is the only excuse for USMC fixed wing combat air because the F-18s could just as well be of the regular navy.

Hornets can't operate off gators. That should be obvious.
 
The US military is planning to buy > 2,000 F-35 fighters. If anybody can afford to benefit from specialization, it is the US. Smaller militaries need the multi-role capability to support the much smaller fighter force. US, theoretically, doesn't face that problem. Furthermore, moving specialized tasks to pods makes it easier to iterate on the pods to incorporate improvements.

Remember that specialized fighters are also going to be cheaper; the F-35 software is behind schedule already. Reducing the needed software capabilities frees development time for improving required tasks.

Finally, the choice of 6 F-35B's on a LHD is amusing, as that is the smallest deployed fighter count which is going to occur with the US. 6 fighters are probably to low for low-end conflicts, so worrying about advanced capabilities (offensive EW, recon, early warning) from such a small force is a ridiculous position. That you make this argument is odd.

All of this is beside the point, as I believe deployed F-35s will become specialized as the program evolves. Certain F-35's will get expensive updates to improve offensive EW capability. Others may get their EOTS iterated faster than the rest of the fleet. The cost of incorporating cutting edge technology on the whole F-35 fleet will be too great, so only selected fighters will get the improvements.
 
Spud - The Marines are welcome to buy all the F-35Bs they want, with their own money. As it is, they come out of the same pot as the Navy uses to fill its CV wings, so Big Navy gets a vote. Even so, under current plans, most TacAir money for the next decade-and-some will go to jets that can't fly off the most capable (by an order of magnitude) aviation ships.

By the way, anyone know who said this?

"We have just over 60 F-117s, but the world must react to those F-117s just as if we had many hundreds,” ****** says. “In the new age, mass comes from precision, not numbers.
“Our problem, though, is the F-117s operate in a fairly constrained, well known altitude and speed block. Our answer must be an F-118 and an F-119. Maybe a little more stealthy. but more importantly, something that operates in a significantly different speed and altitude regime. How many F-118s, F-119s and F-120s do we need? Not many; probably just a squadron or two. How many different types should we have in the inventory? A lot, and all radically different. Maybe ten to fifteen substantially different platforms, each occupying a unique niche."
 
The next line in that quote is "Imagine trying to defend against this kind of force!"


My (& history's) response is "Imagine trying to pay for this kind of force!"


https://saltworks.stanford.edu/assets/bz821jk2869.pdf
 
LowObservable said:
How many different types should we have in the inventory? A lot, and all radically different. Maybe ten to fifteen substantially different platforms, each occupying a unique niche."

If I wanted to make fighters as expensive as possible that would be "Step #1. . ."
 
Well, that's interesting.

Because as the Korea contest (fixed-price bids, no promises) showed, the F-35A is the third most expensive fighter on the market today, because what buys you 60 F-15SEs or Typhoons bought you 40 F-35As and Rafale was (in Switzerland) cost-competitive nose-to-nose with Typhoon. Win and place, of course, being taken by the F-35B and F-35C.

So tell me about the most expensive way to build a fighter again?
 
LowObservable said:
Well, that's interesting.

Because as the Korea contest (fixed-price bids, no promises) showed, the F-35A is the third most expensive fighter on the market today, because what buys you 60 F-15SEs or Typhoons bought you 40 F-35As and Rafale was (in Switzerland) cost-competitive nose-to-nose with Typhoon. Win and place, of course, being taken by the F-35B and F-35C.

So tell me about the most expensive way to build a fighter again?

Tell me which country can afford to develop 15 different fighter designs simultaneously. Or maintain them. Right then. . .
 
sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
Well, that's interesting.

Because as the Korea contest (fixed-price bids, no promises) showed, the F-35A is the third most expensive fighter on the market today, because what buys you 60 F-15SEs or Typhoons bought you 40 F-35As and Rafale was (in Switzerland) cost-competitive nose-to-nose with Typhoon. Win and place, of course, being taken by the F-35B and F-35C.

So tell me about the most expensive way to build a fighter again?

Tell me which country can afford to develop 15 different fighter designs simultaneously. Or maintain them. Right then. . .
Not a perfect apples to apples as you are talking 4th Gen legacy fighters vs. 5th Gen with stealth, etc.
 
LowObservable said:
Well, that's interesting.

Because as the Korea contest (fixed-price bids, no promises) showed, the F-35A is the third most expensive fighter on the market today, because what buys you 60 F-15SEs or Typhoons bought you 40 F-35As and Rafale was (in Switzerland) cost-competitive nose-to-nose with Typhoon. Win and place, of course, being taken by the F-35B and F-35C.

So tell me about the most expensive way to build a fighter again?

And yet the customer chose to purchase the 40 F-35A Lightning II fighter aircraft rather than the 60 F-15 Silent Eagle fighter aircraft.
 
Triton said:
LowObservable said:
Well, that's interesting.

Because as the Korea contest (fixed-price bids, no promises) showed, the F-35A is the third most expensive fighter on the market today, because what buys you 60 F-15SEs or Typhoons bought you 40 F-35As and Rafale was (in Switzerland) cost-competitive nose-to-nose with Typhoon. Win and place, of course, being taken by the F-35B and F-35C.

So tell me about the most expensive way to build a fighter again?

And yet the customer chose to purchase the 40 F-35A Lightning II fighter aircraft rather than the 60 F-15 Silent Eagle fighter aircraft.

Didn't they originally choose the 60 F-15 Silent Eagle fighter aircraft? I seem to remember that there was a competitive process but that the results of that process then got overturned.
 
The "Bean-Counters" chose the F-15SE (with severely reduced capabilities). Then the people who had to use & depend on their choice said "Hellz No", gave the Bean-Counters the "Tall Finger", and chose the F-35.
 
I was not "in the room" when the "Tall Finger" went up, but that is what happened (somewhere between #6 and #7 below).


Chain of events:
1. RFP released


2. Proposals submitted


3. Downselect after specs are met


4. Budget considered


5. Only Boeing meets spec and budget


6. Boeing submits proposal with cost


7. Boeing's proposal rejected as being technically "not good enough" http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/south-korea-rejects-boeing-says-f--not-good-enough/article_f36a9e37-e1c8-5cc4-a5d4-067d4efcb9af.html


8. Korean AF adds RCS to the Spec http://aviationweek.com/awin/seoul-s-f-35-plans-thump-f-15-silent-eagle


9. Korea pick a smaller order of 40 F-35s over 60 F-15SEs
 
Triton said:
LowObservable said:
Well, that's interesting.

Because as the Korea contest (fixed-price bids, no promises) showed, the F-35A is the third most expensive fighter on the market today, because what buys you 60 F-15SEs or Typhoons bought you 40 F-35As and Rafale was (in Switzerland) cost-competitive nose-to-nose with Typhoon. Win and place, of course, being taken by the F-35B and F-35C.

So tell me about the most expensive way to build a fighter again?

And yet the customer chose to purchase the 40 F-35A Lightning II fighter aircraft rather than the 60 F-15 Silent Eagle fighter aircraft.
Even so, it provides the only available price comparison so far between the F-35 and its competitors under similar conditions. Considering how difficult it is to pin down F-35 cost, that alone makes the Korean bidding process interesting.
 
I suppose it would have been sensible to develop scalable common avionics, have two types of engines (F119, F404) and then go along with airframe and undercarriage development

(I) heavy, long-range all-round LO fighter with small internal bombload, all-round long-range sensors field of view and two F119 (upgraded F-22)

(II) medium front/rear LO strike fighter with small internal bombload and one F119 or two F404 (~F-35 without STOVL compromises, USAF)

(III) medium front/rear LO fighter with internal space for AAMs only and two F404, CTOL carrier capable (USN and export among reliable friendly nations)

(IV) light front LO fighter with internal space for AAMs only and one engine (F-16 successor with F119 or F-5 successor with F404, mostly for export)


That's one already developed airframe (I), two similar airframes that might share wings, undercarriage and stabilizers (II and III) and one light airframe (IV). Development of (IV) could have happened in large part with commercial funding because of export prospects - or every export might have yielded license fees for the government.
Then one might have added a medium range bomber (~delta FB-22) later if the USAF budget continued to be super-sized and if the PRC bogeyman was drummed up sufficiently.


The development and procurement costs are really in the engines and avionics (more than 70%), while the economies of scale of assembly are modest because military aviation production has gone back to quantities as in the 1920's again, no comparison to '44. It was a mistake to accept many trade-offs for three very similar airframes instead of developing sensible airframes for different tactical profiles and markets.
 
LD - That would indeed have been an excellent idea. The problem was that the assessment of the common-mold-line concept was a scenario so rosy that Rabbie Burns might have written a poem about it.

Someone was introducing the idea that "it must be a good idea because the Marines know what they are doing" (appeal to authority). It should be remembered that one of the Marines' top three core competencies is amphibious warfare and they spent 37 years in the fruitless pursuit of an armored fighting vehicle that could swim at 25 knots.
 
LowObservable said:
LD - That would indeed have been an excellent idea.

If it weren't for the fact that:

1. It wouldn't have met the requirements.

2. The USMC would be out of the STOVL business (and there go 11 flight decks capable of operating fighters with it).

3. It would have cost much, much more.

4. I don't see the point of continuing to drag along the F404/414. Sure, there's a place for an engine that size but get a clean piece of paper already.

But hey, a neato idea.


LowObservable said:
The problem was that the assessment of the common-mold-line concept was a scenario so rosy that Rabbie Burns might have written a poem about it.

It's more than commonality in the OML. (As you well know. You seem to have no qualms about intentionally distorting the facts.)


LowObservable said:
Someone was introducing the idea that "it must be a good idea because the Marines know what they are doing" (appeal to authority).

That's amusing as hell really. What you're really trying to say is that you think journalists (and I use the term loosely) and bloggers have a better handle on what the USMC needs than the USMC does. I must be wrong because I pointed out that the people setting the requirements are the people who have the experience and will be using the product. Right?


LowObservable said:
It should be remembered that one of the Marines' top three core competencies is amphibious warfare and they spent 37 years in the fruitless pursuit of an armored fighting vehicle that could swim at 25 knots.

The world has been pursuing hypersonics for over half a century with even less to show for it. I guess they should all just give up huh? [/quote][/quote][/quote]
 
When I say "common OML" I very much mean that things other than the OML can be common, or closely related. For example, by the late 1980s the US TacAir fleet was moving along that track, with the F404 on the A-6 and F-18, F110s on F-14s, F-15s and F-16s, closely related radars on the F-14D and F-15C/D/E and so on.

F414 - of course you're aware that the clean-sheet F135 costs and weighs more per lb thrust than the F414?

There is no successful major (all-new tech) Marine-driven procurement program - in terms of meeting spec remotely within time and cost - in recent history. Even the bogus-upgrade CH-53K is well behind schedule and the V-22 story is not all over by any means. That's history, as is the fact that CONOPS that the Marines advertise for the Harrier and F-35B (LH "STOVL carriers" and off-base oeprations) have been exercised a handful of times in decades of air-land war.
 
LowObservable said:
LD - That would indeed have been an excellent idea. The problem was that the assessment of the common-mold-line concept was a scenario so rosy that Rabbie Burns might have written a poem about it.

Someone was introducing the idea that "it must be a good idea because the Marines know what they are doing" (appeal to authority). It should be remembered that one of the Marines' top three core competencies is amphibious warfare and they spent 37 years in the fruitless pursuit of an armored fighting vehicle that could swim at 25 knots.

I count to 41 years.

The USMC is almost uniquely incompetent at procurement and development. Just look at their H-1Z helicopter BS.
Their only claim to procurement fame is that they were - unlike the army for three (or five) decades - able to introduce a new asault rifle recently (albeit they call it differently).


If it weren't for the fact that:

1. It wouldn't have met the requirements.

2. The USMC would be out of the STOVL business (and there go 11 flight decks capable of operating fighters with it).

3. It would have cost much, much more.

4. I don't see the point of continuing to drag along the F404/414. Sure, there's a place for an engine that size but get a clean piece of paper already.

1. I wrote about a sensible approacch, not about meeting BS "requirements" made up by people who don't give a damn about limiting the burden to taxpayers.

2. Again, I wrote about a sensible approach. More than enough flight decks would be left for combat aviation and the big flattops would have a much mroe capable air wing than possible with trade-off-laden F-35s.

3. I doubt it, particularly without the FB-22 and when looking at efficiency, but that's uncertain.

4. Two F119 is too much for naval aviation, and two engines are preferable for naval aviation as well as preferred by many potential export customers. Thus two F414, which were available without additional substantial R&D expenses.
New military turbofan designs don't seem to be worth their ridiculous R&D costs at all. Look at how many billions were sunk into F-35 engine development and it yielded a mere modified F119!
 
LowObservable said:
When I say "common OML" I very much mean that things other than the OML can be common, or closely related. For example, by the late 1980s the US TacAir fleet was moving along that track, with the F404 on the A-6 and F-18, F110s on F-14s, F-15s and F-16s, closely related radars on the F-14D and F-15C/D/E and so on.

I sometimes wonder why they don't do something similar to sensors, avionics, actuators, etc., that they do with engines. They seem to have had a consistent R&D effort with large fighter engines from the F100/F110 to the generation after the F119/F135, with suitable aircraft using variants of them, but they don't appear to do that with other stuff.

LowObservable said:
F414 - of course you're aware that the clean-sheet F135 costs and weighs more per lb thrust than the F414?

Really? What source are you using for the F135 weight? How do their SFC compare? Durability? Installed weight (including relevant structure to mount them)? It's rarely as simple as "dollars per pound of thrust".


LowObservable said:
There is no successful major (all-new tech) Marine-driven procurement program - in terms of meeting spec remotely within time and cost - in recent history.

Are you honestly going to try to say they're unique in this? Really? And let's not forget that constantly changing budgets are notorious for inflicting delays, which increase costs. How much money would be saved if the .gov didn't monkey with budgets every year? [/quote][/quote]
 
"Monkeying" with budgets sometimes wastes money and sometimes saves it (e.g. terminating things that should be terminated).


The source for an F135-PW-100 weight of 6444 lb was a PW PR person in Dec 2010.
 
sferrin said:
Are you honestly going to try to say they're unique in this? Really? And let's not forget that constantly changing budgets are notorious for inflicting delays, which increase costs. How much money would be saved if the .gov didn't monkey with budgets every year?


This excuse doesn't pull any weight because the F-35 and F136 development was largely in the years with extraordinarily idiotic super-sized military budgets PLUS addendum budgets for the military.

Delays due to mil budget issues happened in the 90's maybe, and in Europe - not in the U.S.of A. during 2001-2011.
Whatever delays did exist had different reasons. Reasons that the military bureaucracy or the contractors were guilty of.
 
lastdingo said:
(III) medium front/rear LO fighter with internal space for AAMs only and two F404, CTOL carrier capable (USN and export among reliable friendly nations)


I see that you were not aware that the USN is the customer that demanded an internal 2x2000lb bombload.
 
lastdingo said:
This excuse doesn't pull any weight because the F-35 and F136 development

It helps if you actually read what's being said.

lastdingo said:
was largely in the years with extraordinarily idiotic super-sized military budgets PLUS addendum budgets for the military.

How big is, "extraordinarily idiotic"? This will no doubt come as a shocker to you but military budgets, as a fraction of GNP, are actually smaller than they've been in some time. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good emotional outburst right?

lastdingo said:
Delays due to mil budget issues happened in the 90's maybe, and in Europe - not in the U.S.of A. during 2001-2011. Whatever delays did exist had different reasons. Reasons that the military bureaucracy or the contractors were guilty of.

This will also no doubt come as a massive shock to you but developing new technology is not like going to the store for a bag of groceries.
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LowObservable said:
"Monkeying" with budgets sometimes wastes money and sometimes saves it (e.g. terminating things that should be terminated).

Usually it wastes it. When as stretching a program ever saved money? And how would terminating the F-35 save money (without gutting capability and failing to meet requirements)? Cancelling the F-35 would be like trying to save money by not paying your mortgage. Sure, the money doesn't get spent, but in the end it costs you far, far more. It boggles my mind that there are people who actually believe that if we cancelled the F-35 we'd magically get better aircraft sooner and for less money.


LowObservable said:
The source for an F135-PW-100 weight of 6444 lb was a PW PR person in Dec 2010.

There's your problem. I could buy 6444lbs for the entire propulsion system of the F-35B, engine, ducts, drive shaft, and lift fan, but the F135 isn't that much bigger than an F110-132 (which comes in around 4000lb IIRC). That or the "43k" is significantly understated. I realize you hate the F-35, and everything associated with it, with a passion that is almost holy, but if the 6444lb figure was in any way accurate that would give a thrust to weight of less than 7-to-1 which makes no sense at all. [/quote]
 
SpudmanWP said:
lastdingo said:
(III) medium front/rear LO fighter with internal space for AAMs only and two F404, CTOL carrier capable (USN and export among reliable friendly nations)


I see that you were not aware that the USN is the customer that demanded an internal 2x2000lb bombload.

I see you didn't read that I wasn't writing about how to meet BS requirements better, but about a sensible alternative to the F-35 boondoggle.



sferrin said:
lastdingo said:
was largely in the years with extraordinarily idiotic super-sized military budgets PLUS addendum budgets for the military.

How big is, "extraordinarily idiotic"? This will no doubt come as a shocker to you but military budgets, as a fraction of GNP, are actually smaller than they've been in some time. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good emotional outburst right?

Look, I'm fully aware of the actual DoD budget history and the additional de facto military spending in other budgets.
The DoD budget alone was about half of global military spending, even in PPP it was more than the sum of all even remotely adversarial military spending - for years. That's an insane quantity considering that the sum of allies were easily outspending the rest of the world on their own.

What did DoD have to show for it? The marginal attacks on the U.S. continued and some argue were fuelled by U.S. miltiary action.
The benefits beyond defense were non-existing. In fact, the occupation wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were the equivalent of punching oneself again and again for a decade.
With that little to show for it, the U.S. Military wasted easily in excess of six trillion USD (in budget and in future veteran care) since 2001. And that's only the official military spending, not including Department of Energy spending on nukes et cetera.

Any attempt to blame political intervention for USAF, USN, USMC or USArmy development or procurement disasters is entirely inappropriate because they did cancel what was obviously BS and they shoved trillion after trillion into the MIC, increasing the budget to ridiculous heights.
The U.S. military is a spectacularly wasteful bureaucracy, with an unfathomable incompetence in project management.
Congress sucks as well, but it certainly wasn't 'not nice enough' to DoD during those years (until that sequester).


sferrin said:
lastdingo said:
Delays due to mil budget issues happened in the 90's maybe, and in Europe - not in the U.S.of A. during 2001-2011. Whatever delays did exist had different reasons. Reasons that the military bureaucracy or the contractors were guilty of.

This will also no doubt come as a massive shock to you but developing new technology is not like going to the store for a bag of groceries.
[/quote]

No doubt you have no clue about me. I know my shit about development, both the management and the engineering side.

The marginal returns on development are shrinking with advancing technology, and it's by now very obvious; the tiny improvements of military turbofans are out of proportion to the billions of USD supposedly required for their development.
Only stupid or wasteful engineers try to squeeze out the last few per cent of what's feasible because the last few per cent cost more than the first 90-95 per cent of performance. This applies to all development projects.

Look at how not-terribly-incompetent foreign military establishments handle development projects and if you want to find, you will find examples of competence. The Swedish Air Force and Navy, the Israeli Air Force and Navy - nowadays even the Japanese military (that's been utter shit at cost efficiency for decades) know better.

The virus of near-perfect development program management incompetence is the strongest in U.S., UK, Australian and Indian military bureaucracies, with Germany, Russia, Poland, Canada following closely.[/quote][/quote]
 
lastdingo said:
SpudmanWP said:
lastdingo said:
(III) medium front/rear LO fighter with internal space for AAMs only and two F404, CTOL carrier capable (USN and export among reliable friendly nations)


I see that you were not aware that the USN is the customer that demanded an internal 2x2000lb bombload.

I see you didn't read that I wasn't writing about how to meet BS requirements better, but about a sensible alternative to the F-35 boondoggle.


So not only are you proposing a completely new breakdown of fighters to meet the requirement, you are making your own requirement because you don't think the services know what they need?


Here's a clue as to why the USN required the largest internal payload of the three services... think "A-12".
 
The forum has an existing topic discussing alternative to the F-35.

"Alternatives to F 35- no holds barred and no F-35 stuff please "
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16545.0.html
 
sferrin said:
2. The USMC would be out of the STOVL business (and there go 11 flight decks capable of operating fighters with it).

Not only the United States Marine Corps, but also the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, and Marina Militare (Italian Navy) would be out of the STOVL business. There are other customers of STOVL besides the United States Marine Corps. What does lastdingo propose as a replacement for Harrier II?

lastdingo said:
(I) heavy, long-range all-round LO fighter with small internal bombload, all-round long-range sensors field of view and two F119 (upgraded F-22)

Does this presume that the United States Air Force was able to procure 381 F-22A fighters?
 
Triton said:
Not only the United States Marine Corps, but also the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, and Marina Militare (Italian Navy) would be out of the STOVL business. There are other customers of STOVL besides the United States Marine Corps. What does lastdingo propose as a replacement for Harrier II?

Not the U.S. taxpayer's problem, not its bills. The RAF doesn't insist on STOVL anyway and the RN was about to build its carriers for CTOL as late as a few years ago. The Spanish and Italian naval air components are negligible and entirely superfluous in the Med considereing who's allied, aerial refuelling and available bases.

The USMC has not proved the necessity or worthwhileness of its own Harriers in decades, even though the U.S. played around in multiple wars. There was never a case when the USMC's Harriers were more than a substitute or complementary, thus never a case when there was no substitute. It's exceedingly difficult to design such a case, considering that naval air can operate from extremely short island airfields with the same payload/range combo if the need arises. In worst case you need to install a trap system and a ski jump on the mini runway.

STOVL was never worthwhile for jets.
Yet the whole F-35 basic concept was forced to accept trade-offs for unnecessary STOVL.
And that's where I say it's the United States Marketing Corps' fault, because without STOVL its TacAir would be 100% exchangable with normal USN TacAir, and thus at risk of getting disbanded.
 
SpudmanWP said:
So not only are you proposing a completely new breakdown of fighters to meet the requirement, you are making your own requirement because you don't think the services know what they need?


Here's a clue as to why the USN required the largest internal payload of the three services... think "A-12".

And the later A-X and A/F-X programs.
 
"The Marines’ Stealth Jump Jet Plan Is Wishful Thinking"
by Bill Sweetman
March 17, 2015

Source:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/17/the-marines-stealth-jump-jet-plan-is-wishful-thinking.html

The F-35B, the Marine Corps version of the stealthy Joint Strike Fighter, has the shortest range and the smallest payload of any of the F-35 variants. It’s also the most expensive, with a unit price tag of $140 million, not including R&D. The Marines’ requirements—to do short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) and fit aboard the ships the Corps uses—dictated the use of a single engine and drove the internal layout of the fuselage.

Marine Corps leaders have been confident that the F-35B alone will deliver strategic options that justify its price and its impact on the Air Force and Navy versions. That’s a tall order. A Marine expeditionary force is organized around a single amphibious warfare ship, classified as an LHA or an LHD. These are 50,000-ton warships but they have to carry Marines, their equipment, and helicopters as well as jet fighters. Normally, the air combat element includes just six Harrier “jump jets,” and no force of six aircraft has won a war yet.

The idea behind the Marine Harrier force has always been that it can expand beyond the ship’s capacity, by using shore bases that other fighters cannot reach: short civilian runways or even stretches of road. This kind of operation has been performed by the Marines, in combat, exactly three times in the 40-year history of the Harrier force.

The question today is a simple one: What scenario can we contemplate where you need supersonic, stealthy multi-role fighters, but you don’t need the full carrier air wing? In the past few months, the Marines have rolled out some potential answers.

Corps commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford told a House defense appropriations subcommittee in late February that a shipboard detachment of four to eight F-35Bs would deliver “the same kind of access” in “high-risk regions” as a joint strike package today that would include “cruise missiles, fighter aircraft, electronic-warfare platforms, aircraft which specialize in suppression and destruction of enemy air defenses, and strike aircraft.” The F-35 detachment is “a day-one, full-spectrum capability against the most critical and prohibitive threats,” Dunford said.

On land, the Marines would use a new concept of operations known as distributed STOVL operations (DSO), said Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, Marine deputy commandant for aviation. The idea behind DSO is to obtain the advantages of forward basing—deeper reach and faster response—while keeping people, aircraft and equipment on the ground safe from counterattack from threats that are likely to include guided tactical ballistic missiles.

Mobility is the key. The plan calls for mobile forward arming and refueling points—improvised bases that supply fuel, ammunition, and the minimum support necessary to turn jets between sorties. The idea is that they can moved around the theater inside the adversary’s targeting cycle—assumed to be 24-48 hours—so that they can survive without being accompanied by anti-missile defenses. Decoy bases would be established to complicate the enemy’s targeting problem.

Both the small shipboard unit and the DSO idea have obvious problems.

Dunford’s eight-aircraft detachment would be kept very busy sustaining combat air patrols, providing over-the-horizon intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) and performing close air support and strike. Britain’s new aircraft carriers are 70,000-ton ships because the operations analysts calculated that a stand-alone air wing would need 24 aircraft to cover those missions.

Without a carrier, Dunford’s force has no persistent ISR or airborne early warning—and any nation qualifying as a high-risk threat will have anti-ship cruise missiles on fast attack craft, on trucks or masked in commercial containers. Airborne early warning was invented in World War II in the Pacific, because by the time the kamikazes appeared on the horizon, it was too late for an effective defense. The same goes for this new breed of cruise missiles.

DSO sounds like an adventure in logistics. The Marines’ biggest wartime off-base Harrier operation, in 1991 during Desert Storm, was supported by 45 8,000-gallon tanker trucks, and the F-35B is more than twice the Harrier’s size. Davis envisages that in some cases, the new improvised base will be supplied by KC-130J tankers—but each sortie will deliver five F-35B-loads of fuel at best. As was finally confirmed in the run-up to last year’s Farnborough air show, the F-35’s exhaust is tough on runways: Many tons of metal planking will be needed to protect poor-quality runways or roads, even in a rolling vertical landing. It will have to be moved on the same cycle as the rest of the mobile base.

Force protection could be a challenge. The mobile base will need either a huge sanitized zone or its own active defense against rockets, mortars, and shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, which no practical decoy or jammer will distract from the F-35B’s exhaust.

These ambitious operational concepts should be tested, in force-level exercises against an aggressive and independent Red team, before we get much further into the $48 billion F-35B procurement. There could be no better use for the first F-35B squadron, once Marine leaders declare it ready for combat later this year.
 
"USAF Nellis Base upgrades two F-35A fighters with 2B software"
19 August 2015

Source:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsusaf-nellis-base-upgrades-two-f-35a-fighters-with-2b-software-4649694

The US Air Force's (USAF) Nellis Base in southern Nevada has successfully completed an upgrade on its first two F-35A Lightning II joint strike fighters (JSF).

Nellis AFB installed the fighters with 2B software and avionics package on-site in order to save time as the USAF pushes toward initial operational capability for the fleet.

The on-site work supported the base to focus on tactics development and training activities related to the F-35 aircraft.

Aircraft maintenance unit production superintendent master sergeant Travis Hoogstraten said: "Having only eight aircraft assigned to our unit, a 25% reduction puts the pressure on the maintainers to keep them flying.

"Upgrading our aircraft to 2B is not only essential to air force initial operating capability, but the progression of the joint F-35 programme."

With the installation of the 2B package, the F-35's flight envelope will be expanded to include supersonic flight and more demanding manoeuvres. Moreover, it also improves pilot interface and targeting abilities.

Lockheed Martin supported the air force base to complete the first 1B-to-2B upgrade without impacting unit flying rates.
The decision to carry the work out on-site also helped to finish the work in half the time, Nellis AFB stated.

In July, the USAF F-35 JSF Integrated Test Force started the first phase of testing the F-35A aircraft's four-barrel Gatling gun at Edwards Air Force Base (AFB), California, US.

The trials are designed to answer questions like whether the gun door opens correctly, spins up and down correctly, is the air flows through the vent, and it is adequate to clear the flammable gasses, among others.
 

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