TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Radium]

What do you mean by "stability control", how did you notice or didn't notice that from a small clip with minimal maneuvers and why would TAI fly it without FBW, what if something just goes wrong? Much of a risk to take without a reason

Stability control is the very basics of combat aircraft fly by wire system You can see it very quickly when the aircraft taxies on the ground, especially on the elevator which always researches the stability given by reference of the line of horizon. You can check F/A-50 and F-16, you will see it very clearly on videos.

Radium

 

[Canardzz]

Stability control is the very basics of combat aircraft fly by wire system You can see it very quickly when the aircraft taxies on the ground, especially on the elevator which always researches the stability given by reference of the line of horizon. You can check F/A-50 and F-16, you will see it very clearly on videos.

Radium

Well... Look closely.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1660712831518384149

 

[Radium]

Well... Look closely.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1660712831518384149

Video has a terrible quality, low resolution gives the illusion of movement but there is nothing...

Look on a HD video :

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bnmXbFWrwE

Even during landing, I don't see any sign of AOA control...

By the way, the post was made 40 minutes ago, probably as a reaction of what I just said... Funny way to justify something like that.

Let you enjoy between fanboys guys, I am too much here.

Radium

 

[sferrin]

...

Are those aluminum skins? That's a lot of fasteners for a composite skin.

Nope, composites, I had the production sheet saved somewhere, maybe @Canardzz or @Comandorul could post it

Strange that there are so many fasteners. Those patterns are typical for aluminum skins but composites the fastener count goes way down. Compare a CH-53E tail to a K and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Canardzz]

Video is terrible quality, we see pixels moving...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bnmXbFWrwE


Even during landing, I don't see any sign of AOA control...

Radium

No, you're seeing the horizontal stabs move. Those aren't pixels. Pay attention. Also this scene exists on the Hurjet documentary which is pretty high quality. So if you're interested you might want to check that out.

EDIT: I don't think you watched the rest of the footage which includes a scene where Hürjet is flying in formation with an Özgür F-16. You can see the movements of the control surfaces perfectly fine.

 

[Radonislav]

Video has a terrible quality, low resolution gives the illusion of movement but there is nothing...

Look on a HD video :

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bnmXbFWrwE

Even during landing, I don't see any sign of AOA control...

By the way, the post was made 40 minutes ago, probably as a reaction of what I just said... Funny way to justify something like that.

Let you enjoy between fanboys guys, I am too much here.

Radium

I mean pixels? Maybe get your eyes checked or smh, how did we become "fanboys" after you being disproven?

 

[Radium]

I mean pixels? Maybe get your eyes checked or smh, how did we become "fanboys" after you being disproven?

Hahaha not disproven at all but sorry I don’t see anything moving and I even sent you a video to confirm what I said while I was just issued a poor quality footage. No need to insult my eyes dude they are fighter pilot approved buddy. It’s just a typical case of bad faith by some people here.

 

[Canardzz]

I mean pixels? Maybe get your eyes checked or smh, how did we become "fanboys" after you being disproven?

Hahaha not disproven at all but sorry I don’t see anything moving and I even sent you a video to confirm what I said while I was just issued a poor quality footage. No need to insult my eyes dude they are fighter pilot approved buddy. It’s just a typical case of bad faith by some people here.

The footage you saw negates your argument directly though. The pixel argument doesn't sound very profound to me either. You can see the way those stabs move. If your fighter pilot approved eyes are mixing those movements with "pixels", than I'm sorry but you shouldn't be making observation-based analysis work on something you know very little about.

View: https://youtu.be/dG3FgVo11nA


58:50

Make sure to watch it in HD this time.

 

[Radonislav]

...

Are those aluminum skins? That's a lot of fasteners for a composite skin.

Nope, composites, I had the production sheet saved somewhere, maybe @Canardzz or @Comandorul could post it

Strange that there are so many fasteners. Those patterns are typical for aluminum skins but composites the fastener count goes way down. Compare a CH-53E tail to a K and you'll see what I mean.

Well, I guess it is a bit of "first prototype" thing, they will probably change some stuff about production and assembly in later prototypes/serial production

 

[flateric]

Like Hawk, Alpha-Jet, L-159, AT-3, T-4, T-38... Aircraft is naturally stable, so you don't need artificial stability control for it

How do you define 'naturally stable' aircraft? Via eye? Why do not you compare Hurjet to later gen trainers like Yak-130, M-346 or T-7A?

 

[djfawcett]

I mean pixels? Maybe get your eyes checked or smh, how did we become "fanboys" after you being disproven?

Hahaha not disproven at all but sorry I don’t see anything moving and I even sent you a video to confirm what I said while I was just issued a poor quality footage. No need to insult my eyes dude they are fighter pilot approved buddy. It’s just a typical case of bad faith by some people here.

What combat aircraft do you have time in? By the way, I think some of the confusion with the past argument is driven by word choice. When you (Radium) say "stability control", I suspect you mean artifical stability provided the fly-by-wire control system. Additionally, minute movement of a control surfaces does not mean the aircraft has artificial stability. There are plenty of videos showing 1960's naval aircraft doing a carrier landing where every controls surface on the aircraft is hunting. And aircraft like the A-7 or A-5 certainly did not have artificial stability.

 

[buraktunahan]

I don't worry for anything ! first I own no TAI shares, and my country has no link with Turkish military aerospace complex. But seeing the impressive communication policy deployed, I would have been surprised of reading it differently. I really never really care about such feedback, because as a military personal, you must say what PR people ask you to say, it's the same in every country.

I can't wait to see more of the final Kaan and the final Hürjet

And before people jump on by back :


Radium

Hello Radium.

I am sharing a video below. The person in the video is Nuri Arda GÜNGÖR, the chief engineer of the Hürjet project. The video explains Hürjet's flight system and its first flight. Since the video is in Turkish, I have summarized and translated it below.

In the video, Nuri Arda GÜNGÖR, chief engineer of the Hürjet project, says:

1- Hürjet is an unstable aircraft.

2- Therefore, flight control is controlled by 3 different computers.

3- There is no "physical connection" between the stick and the flight control surfaces.

4- Commands of the pilot are transmitted to the flight control surfaces as digital signals.

5- The first flight was completed with "zero mistakes" and we are very happy as a team. The plane behaved exactly as in the simulations. Otherwise, our job would be very difficult.

6- In fact, the F-16 pilots accompanying Hürjet's first flight asked, "Was this really its first flight?" they asked.

7- We have been working on the aircraft for 5 years and we are also working on the navy version.

8- In the current "simulations", the LHD class can take off from the ski-jump of the Anadolu ship with a gun loaded. However, since the Anadolu ship does not have a cable capture system, it is not possible to land on this ship yet.

9- We are aware of the needs of our army. That's why we are developing Hürjet for a real aircraft carrier.

he says in a nutshell.

So there are things you don't know about the Hürjet and Kaan projects. This is also very normal. Because most of the resources you can access on this subject are in Turkish. Because both projects are newly recognized in the world.

In conclusion, I say it again: There is an fbw developed by Turkey in Hürjet and it flies in this way. In other words, Turkey has a unique fbw and it is already being developed. As far as I can remember, it had made its last 6th flight. (I don't know how many times it flew now.)

The Hürjet project is an integral part of the Kaan project. TAI started this project on its own initiative. The air force did not make such a request. In fact, the Hürjet project was a necessity for TAI. Because with TAI Hürjet, he learns to make jet fighter planes and gains experience. He transfers all his experience to Kaan. So if Hürjet is flying, I hope Kaan will fly very soon, too.

And if you don't believe the project lead engineer, there's nothing more I can tell you. You can think any way you want. Nobody here has an obligation to convince you.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI_qAcfRP9I

 

[Radonislav]

For Kaan FF there is a period of around 6-7 months, which will cover various tests and installation of test equipments.

 

[Radium]

Hello Radium.

I am sharing a video below. The person in the video is Nuri Arda GÜNGÖR, the chief engineer of the Hürjet project. The video explains Hürjet's flight system and its first flight. Since the video is in Turkish, I have summarized and translated it below.

In the video, Nuri Arda GÜNGÖR, chief engineer of the Hürjet project, says:

1- Hürjet is an unstable aircraft.

2- Therefore, flight control is controlled by 3 different computers.

3- There is no "physical connection" between the stick and the flight control surfaces.

4- Commands of the pilot are transmitted to the flight control surfaces as digital signals.

5- The first flight was completed with "zero mistakes" and we are very happy as a team. The plane behaved exactly as in the simulations. Otherwise, our job would be very difficult.

6- In fact, the F-16 pilots accompanying Hürjet's first flight asked, "Was this really its first flight?" they asked.

7- We have been working on the aircraft for 5 years and we are also working on the navy version.

8- In the current "simulations", the LHD class can take off from the ski-jump of the Anadolu ship with a gun loaded. However, since the Anadolu ship does not have a cable capture system, it is not possible to land on this ship yet.

9- We are aware of the needs of our army. That's why we are developing Hürjet for a real aircraft carrier.

he says in a nutshell.

So there are things you don't know about the Hürjet and Kaan projects. This is also very normal. Because most of the resources you can access on this subject are in Turkish. Because both projects are newly recognized in the world.

In conclusion, I say it again: There is an fbw developed by Turkey in Hürjet and it flies in this way. In other words, Turkey has a unique fbw and it is already being developed. As far as I can remember, it had made its last 6th flight. (I don't know how many times it flew now.)

The Hürjet project is an integral part of the Kaan project. TAI started this project on its own initiative. The air force did not make such a request. In fact, the Hürjet project was a necessity for TAI. Because with TAI Hürjet, he learns to make jet fighter planes and gains experience. He transfers all his experience to Kaan. So if Hürjet is flying, I hope Kaan will fly very soon, too.

And if you don't believe the project lead engineer, there's nothing more I can tell you. You can think any way you want. Nobody here has an obligation to convince you.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI_qAcfRP9I

Hello,

Your answer is probably the smartest I read here. Beside of insulting comments, I will only retain yours and the previous one.

On the HD video that was addressed to me earlier, we can indeed see some movement which is a hint that there is some instability control. On the first time I saw the video, I didn't really noticed it with the shadows moving on the elevator, but yes, it moves, so, it shows up a credible proof that there is indeed inside Hürjet a full fly by wire system and that Hürjet is certainly naturally unstable.

There is no ego behind that, and I feel some reactions here really surprising, especially between gentlemen. But as I always say : before getting a clear proof of something, critical mind shall always be considered. It's not an insult to the final aircraft : I flew advanced combat aircraft that didn't had any fly by wire that flew so well with great flight dynamics.

When an aircraft rolls out, it's always claimed in public announcement that it's the best one in the world, and too often, expectancy is presented over what is really done (F-16 being a good example of it), so, I feel critical first, as long as I don't have any clear proof. It's also a good way to exchange about technical topics for everyone, to avoid "I was said", or "I read that". posts only, that may be taken out of its background.

Also, there is nothing specific about Turkey, the day Tempest FCAS will rollout for example, I will also have a critical view on it, because it's the key of a proper understanding and not being mislead.

What combat aircraft do you have time in? By the way, I think some of the confusion with the past argument is driven by word choice. When you (Radium) say "stability control", I suspect you mean artifical stability provided the fly-by-wire control system. Additionally, minute movement of a control surfaces does not mean the aircraft has artificial stability. There are plenty of videos showing 1960's naval aircraft doing a carrier landing where every controls surface on the aircraft is hunting. And aircraft like the A-7 or A-5 certainly did not have artificial stability.

I flew non fly by wire advanced trainer aircraft, 3rd generation non fly by wire combat aircraft and 4th generation unstable full fly by wire equipped fighter aircraft.

About A-7, I really don't know this aircraft but it also may be due do mechanical dampers to avoid internal damages on the elevator for carrier landing, but for A-5, it already integrated a fly by wire system. You can check it, it's documented on internet. That being said, it didn't raised a concerned to me for Hürjet, because being a land based aircraft first (I neither doubt about the capacity of Turkey to make a naval aircraft, nor to get enough lift to bring it into the air, nor that you can design arrestor cable system) I believed that the overall solution wouldn't be so different from aircraft of the same class, such as M346 for example). with the HD video that was published, it's even clearer now, thank you for posting it.

I only regret some comments here, but it's like that you can't please everyone.

Radium

 

[snne]

Can we stop this nonsense and get back to Kaan please?

 

[snne]

Frame

I wonder if the bay is deep enough for a future integration of 6x Gökdogan missiles. We know for certain that the bays are voluminous enough to carry 1000lb bombs and SOM-J missiles but can we expect more? a stealth config with 6 BVRAAMs is to be expected from a fighter this size but even slightly bigger aircraft like J-20 and Su-57 can't haul that much while the smaller F-35 can.

 

[paralay]

The relative volume of weapon bays TF-X is 8.6%. At F-22 - 10%, F-35 - 13.5%, slightly more at Su-57 - 9.1%I don't think anything bigger than a medium-range missile can fit in there
Depth 500 mm

 

[Radonislav]

The relative volume of weapon bays TF-X is 8.6%. At F-22 - 10%, F-35 - 13.5%, slightly more at Su-57 - 9.1%I don't think anything bigger than a medium-range missile can fit in there
Depth 500 mm

SOM-J is confirmed to be carried internally

 

[paralay]

SOM-J is confirmed to be carried internally

Is there a blueprint for this miselle?

 

[snne]

SOM-J is confirmed to be carried internally

Is there a blueprint for this miselle?

Not that I'm aware of, but here are some pics as a reference:

 

[Radonislav]

SOM-J is confirmed to be carried internally

Is there a blueprint for this miselle?

Not a blueprint but we have photos, dimensions (at least length) and 3d model of it by Roketsan

Roketsan - SOM-J Stand-Off Mühimmatı

www.roketsan.com.tr

 

[paralay]

Two misseles in the rear weapons bay

 

[flateric]

...

 

[buraktunahan]

weight:
max 37000 kg
normal 27000 kg (100% fuel)
fuel 7000 kg
empty 19760 kg
weapons 10000 kg (max)

speed:
maximum 1900 - 2000 km/h
cruising 900 and 1500 km/h

range:
without external tanks 2000 km
supersonic 900 km

The scaled drawings you shared about Kaan are really remarkable. You are probably in a position close to the design team.

I wonder if there are drawings with external weapon stations loaded? (eg external fuel tanks, Teber-82, HGK-84, LGK-82, HGK-84 NEB etc.) (weapons 10000 kg (max))

And the question I'm most curious about, but no one has been able to answer: Is there a drawing showing the location of the internal gatling gun?

 

[Canardzz]

And the question I'm most curious about, but no one has been able to answer: Is there a drawing showing the location of the internal gatling gun?

It doesn't exist yet.

 

[buraktunahan]

Aviationweek magazine has released the long-awaited photo. The magazine published a photo of KAAN from the top on its cover. So I was able to compare its size with other planes. I got the dimensions of KAAN, F-15C and F-16C from wikipedia. I also added Photoshop's ruler to the image. So I was able to make a scaled size comparison using real photos. I posted it on another forum last week. I wanted to share it with you too.

 

[Canardzz]

KAAN together with young TurAF cadets

 

[paralay]

weapons bay

 

[Canardzz]

weapons bay

Me thinks KAAN looks nice from the forward aspect

 

[TomcatViP]

I wonder if there is no Naval shaping with the raised nose tip. That has the effect of clearing forward view at high AoA for the sensor below the nose.

This would be perfectly suitable for a carrier approach. The raised cockpit ensuring adequate pilot view.

 

[snne]

I wonder if there is no Naval shaping with the raised nose tip. That has the effect of clearing forward view at high AoA for the sensor below the nose.

This would be perfectly suitable for a carrier approach. The raised cockpit ensuring adequate pilot view.

Turkey neither has nor plans to have an aircraft carrier that would make having a heavy naval fighter worth the price.

But we know that they've been working on Naval Hürjet for a while now. According to their analysis it can take off just fine from a ski-jump with 4-5t of payload/munitions so on top of that they're now working on adding a arresting hook and strengtening the landing gears.

 

[Combat-Master]

Sensors being attached to KAAN

 

[Canardzz]

Sensors being attached to KAAN
View attachment 700240

Related pics. Not as interesting.

 

[Canardzz]

Ukrainian engine developer Ivchenko Progress has entered the "Preliminary Design Phase Project" tender for the development of the turbofan engine of KAAN.

-Ivchenko Progress established a cooperation model with TEI within the scope of the tender.

Via SST

Ukrayna KAAN savaş uçağının motor ihalesine girdİ

KAAN savaş uçağının özgün motorunun geliştirilmesi için açılan ihaleye, Ukraynalı Ivchenko Progress şirketi de katılım sağladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[snne]

They

Ukrainian engine developer Ivchenko Progress has entered the "Preliminary Design Phase Project" tender for the development of the turbofan engine of KAAN.

-Ivchenko Progress established a cooperation model with TEI within the scope of the tender.

Via SST

View attachment 700488

Ukrayna KAAN savaş uçağının motor ihalesine girdİ

KAAN savaş uçağının özgün motorunun geliştirilmesi için açılan ihaleye, Ukraynalı Ivchenko Progress şirketi de katılım sağladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

They haven't churned out a new engine for like 40 years! IMHO they have nothing to offer.

And we have heard before that TEI and TRMotor were partners in this tender, that's why TUSAS bought all the shares of TRMotor in the first place.

Technologically speaking, TEI alone is leagues ahead of them. I think we shouldn't make assumptions just yet.

 

[FighterJock]

Otherwise known as click bait. Stick to more trust worthy sources.

 

[Canardzz]

They

Ukrainian engine developer Ivchenko Progress has entered the "Preliminary Design Phase Project" tender for the development of the turbofan engine of KAAN.

-Ivchenko Progress established a cooperation model with TEI within the scope of the tender.

Via SST

View attachment 700488

Ukrayna KAAN savaş uçağının motor ihalesine girdİ

KAAN savaş uçağının özgün motorunun geliştirilmesi için açılan ihaleye, Ukraynalı Ivchenko Progress şirketi de katılım sağladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

They haven't churned out a new engine for like 40 years! IMHO they have nothing to offer.

And we have heard before that TEI and TRMotor were partners in this tender, that's why TUSAS bought all the shares of TRMotor in the first place.

Technologically speaking, TEI alone is leagues ahead of them. Therefore this is probably #fakenews

Edit: savunmasanayist has a bit of a reputation for making up stuff without having a source, DefenceTurk and DefenceTurkey are more reputable news sources who make sure to confirm before sharing. Therefore I think we shouldn't make assumptions just yet.

As per SST, Ivchenko Progress has joined the TEI & TRMotor duo. That would make slightly more sense.

 

[Canardzz]

They

Ukrainian engine developer Ivchenko Progress has entered the "Preliminary Design Phase Project" tender for the development of the turbofan engine of KAAN.

-Ivchenko Progress established a cooperation model with TEI within the scope of the tender.

Via SST

View attachment 700488

Ukrayna KAAN savaş uçağının motor ihalesine girdİ

KAAN savaş uçağının özgün motorunun geliştirilmesi için açılan ihaleye, Ukraynalı Ivchenko Progress şirketi de katılım sağladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

They haven't churned out a new engine for like 40 years! IMHO they have nothing to offer.

And we have heard before that TEI and TRMotor were partners in this tender, that's why TUSAS bought all the shares of TRMotor in the first place.

Technologically speaking, TEI alone is leagues ahead of them. Therefore this is probably #fakenews

Edit: savunmasanayist has a bit of a reputation for making up stuff without having a source, DefenceTurk and DefenceTurkey are more reputable news sources who make sure to confirm before sharing. Therefore I think we shouldn't make assumptions just yet.

As per SST, Ivchenko Progress has joined the TEI & TRMotor duo. That would make slightly more sense.

Until it is confirmed, this is #fakenews

I just spoke with the publisher of this. They're stressing that the news is official. Hopefully we will see more content pop up soon.

 

[Combat-Master]

They

Ukrainian engine developer Ivchenko Progress has entered the "Preliminary Design Phase Project" tender for the development of the turbofan engine of KAAN.

-Ivchenko Progress established a cooperation model with TEI within the scope of the tender.

Via SST

View attachment 700488

Ukrayna KAAN savaş uçağının motor ihalesine girdİ

KAAN savaş uçağının özgün motorunun geliştirilmesi için açılan ihaleye, Ukraynalı Ivchenko Progress şirketi de katılım sağladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

They haven't churned out a new engine for like 40 years! IMHO they have nothing to offer.

And we have heard before that TEI and TRMotor were partners in this tender, that's why TUSAS bought all the shares of TRMotor in the first place.

Technologically speaking, TEI alone is leagues ahead of them. Therefore this is probably #fakenews

Edit: savunmasanayist has a bit of a reputation for making up stuff without having a source, DefenceTurk and DefenceTurkey are more reputable news sources who make sure to confirm before sharing. Therefore I think we shouldn't make assumptions just yet.

Don't know why you are throwing in such claims, technologically speaking - TEI hasn't even produced a single turbofan engine, while Ivchenko has dozens of examples used in commercial and military platforms.

It's a win-win situation for both parties involved. Ivchenko could gain FADEC capabilities with single crystal nickel alloy turbine blade production whilst parting experienced engine designers and production methods.

There aren't many other options out there for Turkey to partner up with either.

Perhaps, we may finally see this engine being developed aswell - could easily be used on Hurjet.

 

[snne]

They

Ukrainian engine developer Ivchenko Progress has entered the "Preliminary Design Phase Project" tender for the development of the turbofan engine of KAAN.

-Ivchenko Progress established a cooperation model with TEI within the scope of the tender.

Via SST

View attachment 700488

Ukrayna KAAN savaş uçağının motor ihalesine girdİ

KAAN savaş uçağının özgün motorunun geliştirilmesi için açılan ihaleye, Ukraynalı Ivchenko Progress şirketi de katılım sağladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

They haven't churned out a new engine for like 40 years! IMHO they have nothing to offer.

And we have heard before that TEI and TRMotor were partners in this tender, that's why TUSAS bought all the shares of TRMotor in the first place.

Technologically speaking, TEI alone is leagues ahead of them. Therefore this is probably #fakenews

Edit: savunmasanayist has a bit of a reputation for making up stuff without having a source, DefenceTurk and DefenceTurkey are more reputable news sources who make sure to confirm before sharing. Therefore I think we shouldn't make assumptions just yet.

Don't know why you are throwing in such claims, technologically speaking - TEI hasn't even produced a single turbofan engine, while Ivchenko has dozens of examples used in commercial and military platforms.

It's a win-win situation for both parties involved. Ivchenko could gain FADEC capabilities with single crystal nickel alloy turbine blade production whilst parting experienced engine designers and production methods.

There aren't many other options out there for Turkey to partner up with either.

Perhaps, we may finally see this engine being developed aswell - could easily be used on Hurjet.
View attachment 700495

Just take a look at TEI's history of workshare and production, their production development programmes, the extensive licence production of F110s and involvement of TEI AND Kale Aero in F135 and F136 respectively. Then there's widely known developments of TS1400 and TF-6000/10000.




All the while Ivchenko hasn't developed an engine from scratch ever since the donwfall of the Soviet Union. Yes, they churned out some designs but that's just it. They haven't developed anything. Their experienced engineers are all either retired or are already working in Western countries.

quote:

The company also is continuing research on a new engine that builds on the design methods employed in developing the AI-222-25, but this will have a 21,000-pound-thrust rating.
The engine, which is still a design and not yet in prototype development, is the AI-9500F and has been in the design stage for years. Ivchenko describe the engine as being a candidate for a “lightweight tactical fighter” program, but no specific design or customer nation has been designated.

I don't even think they're better than TEI when it comes to hot parts.

TEI has started the TF-10000 project just to gain experience in new and critical technologies before developing the indigenous engine of MMU and they're already building a prototype of it. The next step is to just upscale it as per the CEO.


I agree that partnering with Ivchenko in the field of missile engines could be worth it, but Kale Aero and Tubitak SAGE have already developed and tested advanced Turbojet, Turbofan AND Ramjet engines for various upcoming missiles.

Working with Ivchenko could've been beneficial 10 years ago but at the point where TEI's at now, they could do it alone although it may take longer than desired.

I agree that Turkish firms have to partner up with bigger foreign players if they want to meet the schedule, but Ivchenko is not one of 'em.