TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Combat-Master]

TFX Titanium bulkhead - width of 5.3 and a height of 1.6 meters
View attachment 668084

TFX shares similarities to SU-57 stacked centreline weapon bays;
View attachment 668085View attachment 668086

interesting because the TUSAS site shows two side by side bays like hte F-22 instead of tandem ones

KAAN - TUSAS

KAAN

www.tusas.com

I think the change was due to the insistence on being able to carry SOM-J Cruise missile internally, lengthening the bays and config. Both bays capable of carrying 1,000lb each.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VxCeyWvgsw

 

[joeljp06]

Wow, TFX starts churning out parts. This leaves India which hasnt start building the AMCA.

actually parts for amca like actuators air brakes are already made . also around 5-13 slabs of titanium alloy was supplied

 

[stealthflanker]

Wow, TFX starts churning out parts. This leaves India which hasnt start building the AMCA.

actually parts for amca like actuators air brakes are already made . also around 5-13 slabs of titanium alloy was supplied

I see.. looking forward for the unveilling.

 

[joeljp06]

i don't think amca prototype is being made . CDR is planned early next year after rcs and flutter testing IG . construction of a mockup for rcs test is underway . Prototype building may only start in late 2022 .rollout is planned for 2023 and flight 2024

 

[Combat-Master]

SSB Will Open Tender Soon for Phase-II of MMU/TF-X Engine Development Project!​

I had previously received information from a source close to the MMU/TF-X Project that TRMotor and Ivchenko Progress will collaborate on the development of a new engine called TF-141 as part of the next generation engine requirement for the MMU/TF-X. Ivchenko Progress representative, whom I had the opportunity to meet during the SAHA Expo 2021 Defense, Aerospace Industry Fair, stated that they proposed the AI-9500 Turbofan Engine based on the AI-322F engine within the scope of the MMU/TF-X Engine Development Project. However, a TRMotor representative, whose opinions I consulted, stated that the proposal for the AI-9500F with a thrust capacity of 9,500kgf (approximately 21,000lbf) is no longer on the agenda, and that this engine, designed 10 years ago, is an old proposal. The AI-9500F was previously proposed as a co-development option for the HAL Tejas LCA Mk1A Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) during the Aero India 2009 Exhibition, but chose the GE product F400-GE-IN20 Turbofan Engine for its Indian needs. Having supplied approximately 45 engines for the first pack of 40 aircraft, HAL signed a US$716 Million contract with GE Aviation in August 2021 to supply 99 F400-GE-IN20 Engines for an additional 83 LCA Mk1 Aircraft.

As far as I know, on April 20, 2017, Defense Industry Technologies (SSTEK) A.Ş. TRMotor, founded by SSTEK A.Ş and currently owned by SSTEK A.Ş and TUSAŞ, is positioned like a top mind in the process of designing and developing a new generation engine in order to meet Turkey's military and civil aircraft engine needs, especially the MMU/TF-X Program. and to coordinate the existing capabilities in the sector in line with this goal (such as company X in the hot section, company y in charge of the cold section). According to the information I have obtained, the thrust power of the new generation original turbofan engine to be developed for the MMU/TF-X Aircraft has been clarified within the scope of Phase-I, where the Conceptual Design studies are carried out. However, this information cannot be shared with the public at the moment. The total weight of the engine is calculated as approximately 2 tons. The original turbofan engine, which will be designed in accordance with the requirements of the 5th generation engine, will also have 'supercruise' and 'stealth' features.

The weight of the 29,000lb class F110-GE-129 Engine is given as 1,805kg, while the weight of the 32,000lb class F110-GE-132 Engine is given as 1,837kg. The thrust of the F110-GE-132 Engine, which is open to growth, can be increased up to 36,000lb with a 10% growth to be achieved thanks to the technological improvements to be made. Therefore, I expect the MMU/TF-X Engine to be a 5th generation engine that will be developed over the F110 Engine, which Turkey has been carrying out parts production, final assembly and testing activities for many years and is well known.

SSB, MMU/TF-X Motoru Geliştirme Projesi Faz-II Aşaması İçin Yakında İhale Açacak!

Türk Hava Kuvvetleri’nin 2030-2070 yılları arasındaki harekat ihtiyaçlarına cevap verebilecek şekilde tasarlanan Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU/TF-X)’lara güç verecek yeni nesil özgün turbofan motorun geliştirme sürecinde ikinci aşamayı oluşturan Faz-II çalışmalarına yönelik Ana Yüklenici Firmanın...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[red admiral]

So if they need an open tender for this, that's basically just admitting that they don't currently have an engine for Phase II?

 

[Combat-Master]

So if they need an open tender for this, that's basically just admitting that they don't currently have an engine for Phase II?

No indigenous engine development is broken up into three phases;

First phase of the project was a feasibility study which TRMotor conducted with a third party (likely Ivchenko Progress) and completed.

Second phase of the project is a developmental study, where we will hopefully see a working prototype of the engine, if schedule hasn't changed we will see it in 2023 - Kale, TEI and TRMotor will be competing for the contract.

Third Phase of the project would be selecting main contractor to serially produce the engines - This will be further along in the timeline 2028 onwards.

 

[red admiral]

Thanks. So this is competition for a research and development programme for a future engine.

Prototype / Engine bench testbed in 2023 seems pretty unlikely if they haven't launched the competition yet.

 

[Combat-Master]

Speaking to CNN Turk General Manager of TAI said that TFX will have laser weapon system on-board to neutralise missiles that are a threat to the aircraft.

View: https://youtu.be/d38UzfyLYTU?t=1579

 

[Combat-Master]

Progress in Metallurgy was noted in the development of the engine, aswell as single crystal super alloy for turbine blades. Development of INCONEL 718 and 321 stainless steel were nationalised.

INCONEL 718 Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM)


321 stainless steel - Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM) Electroslag Refining (ESR) and Vacuum Arc Remelting. (VAR)

 

[ceccherini]

Progress in Metallurgy was noted in the development of the engine, aswell as single crystal super alloy for turbine blades. Development of INCONEL 718 and 321 stainless steel were nationalised.

INCONEL 718 Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM)
View attachment 668385

321 stainless steel - Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM) Electroslag Refining (ESR) and Vacuum Arc Remelting. (VAR)
View attachment 668386

Are there any specs for the late batch indigenous engine?

 

[Combat-Master]

Progress in Metallurgy was noted in the development of the engine, aswell as single crystal super alloy for turbine blades. Development of INCONEL 718 and 321 stainless steel were nationalised.

INCONEL 718 Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM)
View attachment 668385

321 stainless steel - Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM) Electroslag Refining (ESR) and Vacuum Arc Remelting. (VAR)
View attachment 668386

Are there any specs for the late batch indigenous engine?

No, those specs haven't been shared publicly yet. We expect an engine around 30,000lbf thrust range.

 

[Combat-Master]

TFX Assembly Facility is right next to Development Building



Updated image shows the Assembly facility is complete.

 

[Combat-Master]

Offices and partner countries;


Currently under construction, Turkish Aerospace Industries Large sub-sonic wind tunnel


- 2nd largest wind tunnel in Europe
- Single Axis 14.5MW Fan

Large Enclosed area - 6.4m x 4.8 @ 130m/s
Small Enclosed aread - 4.9m x 3.7m @ 180m/s
Open Area - 6.4m x 4.8m @ 107m/s

 

[GTX]

Offices and partner countries;
View attachment 669251

Are you implying that all those countries are partners in this program? That's a bit of a stretch I think.

 

[Combat-Master]

Offices and partner countries;
View attachment 669251

Are you implying that all those countries are partners in this program? That's a bit of a stretch I think.

No, these are partner countires to TAI the company. However, as was disclosed in the presentation countries have offices in which TAI sends workloads to and the engineers in those offices work on. One of those is the TFX, only non-classified work is carried out by those offices abroad and is rectified/checked by the main design building in Turkey.

This may be a Turkish aircraft with high Turkish output, however there are a lot of ex-engineers involved from Eurofighter Programme and various US fighter programmes in which "older" engineers were made redundant infavour of keeping younger engineers.

 

[jsport]

Could Turkey’s future TF-X jet include a mix of American and Russian tech?

Turkey has chosen an American-made engine for its future fighter jet TF-X, but the country will also work with Russia to locally produce aircraft parts, according to Turkey’s top procurement official.

www.defensenews.com

 

[UpForce]

Could Turkey’s future TF-X jet include a mix of American and Russian tech?

Turkey has chosen an American-made engine for its future fighter jet TF-X, but the country will also work with Russia to locally produce aircraft parts, according to Turkey’s top procurement official.

www.defensenews.com

A fitting quote from Wikipedia here:

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." It is named after Ian Betteridge, a British technology journalist who wrote about it in 2009, although the principle is much older.

We'll see whether the principle holds. TFX by itself, as it stands, certainly can't be used as any kind of leverage at all. Much larger issues are at stake here.

 

[Geo]

Could Turkey’s future TF-X jet include a mix of American and Russian tech?

Turkey has chosen an American-made engine for its future fighter jet TF-X, but the country will also work with Russia to locally produce aircraft parts, according to Turkey’s top procurement official.

www.defensenews.com

"General Electric’s non-afterburning F118 engine is already produced in Turkey under license in Eskisehir Tusas Engine Industries, a government-controlled company."

REALLY???

 

[Combat-Master]

Could Turkey’s future TF-X jet include a mix of American and Russian tech?

Turkey has chosen an American-made engine for its future fighter jet TF-X, but the country will also work with Russia to locally produce aircraft parts, according to Turkey’s top procurement official.

www.defensenews.com

"General Electric’s non-afterburning F118 engine is already produced in Turkey under license in Eskisehir Tusas Engine Industries, a government-controlled company."

REALLY???

This author is synonymous for his BS, his surname is literally 'shit-tongue' "Bok-Dil"

-F110 is assembled in Turkey by TEI which is 49% owned by General Electric

https://tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/f110-engine

 

[Combat-Master]

Aspilsan of Turkey is designing Lithium Battery that will be used on TFX (MMU).

 

[Combat-Master]

3D render of engine being developed for TF-X by TRmotor

 

[Deino]

I cannot find the Hürjet thread anymore??!!

Wow … there are already three Hürjet prototypes under construction (looks at +0:32)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RviIWq6ERpY

 

[Combat-Master]

AESA radar developer for TFX Aselsan;

GaN MMIC Power Amp chip

 

[Maro.Kyo]

I cannot find the Hürjet thread anymore??!!

It's on the secret postwar aircraft projects section.. for some reason. Or was it there from the start? Anyways, I feel a lot of the threads on the Secret (Unbuilt) Projects section actually doesn't belong there.

 

[helmutkohl]

I cannot find the Hürjet thread anymore??!!

It's on the secret postwar aircraft projects section.. for some reason. Or was it there from the start? Anyways, I feel a lot of the threads on the Secret (Unbuilt) Projects section actually doesn't belong there.

ive been trying to get some of the threads from those sections, moved to here since they are built or being built (to be fair, when those threads were created, they werent built yet)
but i need cooperation from the mods of that section

 

[Maro.Kyo]

ive been trying to get some of the threads from those sections, moved to here since they are built or being built (to be fair, when those threads were created, they werent built yet)
but i need cooperation from the mods of that section

Fair enough, though I think something that is actively being planned to be built or is in the process of being built should be distinguished from something that has ultimately not been built. Anyways, thank you for your effort.

Now back to MMU.

 

[Combat-Master]

"
Regarding the RFP, SSB DEMİR shared following information: “Our Request for Proposal (RFP) is different from the classic RFPs. It is actually a study to determine Turkey's domestic engine development capabilities. This RFP aims for potential players in Turkey's national jet engine journey to come together and create a roadmap where all the existing capabilities in Turkey regarding domestic engine production are on the table and create a strategy together. Since Turkey does not have a comprehensive history in this matter, we do not have many experienced engineers and designers. That is why we do not have the luxury of dividing the process into three or four parts, so we must combine our capabilities and work together in a coordinated manner. We have manufacturing capabilities, TEI has demonstrated significant manufacturing capabilities. Further material research and manufacturing techniques are being studied, but the RFP we mentioned is a new step in our national engine development process.”

"

SSB Issued an RFP for the TF-X Engine Development Project Phase-II

Speaking at the

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Combat-Master]

Sciaky, Inc. to Deliver World’s Largest Metal Electron Beam DED 3D Printer, a Customized EBAM® 300 Series Additive Manufacturing System, to Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)​

The EBAM machine is going to TAI’s Ankara, Turkey plant, where it will 3D print some of the largest titanium aerostructures in the industry. The machine’s work envelope stretches beyond 6 meters in length by 2 meters in width by 1.8 meters in height. Deposition rates will exceed 20 kg of metal per hour for many metal alloys. On top of the impressive technical specifications, this unique 3D printer can quickly switch over to an Electron Beam Welder (EBW) for large-scale welding applications. TAI will also have the advantage of combining EB welding and 3D printing functionality for applications that require both technologies.

Sciaky Delivering World's Largest Metal DED 3D Printer to Turkish Aerospace Industries | Sciaky

Stay up-to-date with Sciaky, the leading provider of electron beam additive manufacturing (EBAM) solutions and advanced welding systems and services.

www.sciaky.com

 

[GTX]

I have seen those machines and visited Sciaky. It is impressive technology.

 

[Combat-Master]

I have seen those machines and visited Sciaky. It is impressive technology.

I'm actually pretty surprised that US is okay to exporting such a machine which will be crucial in production of TFX. This machine is supposedly going to be used to make Titanium bulkheads for TFX.

In fact, US has been quite lenient in providing production and propulsion systems despite current political atmosphere.

TFX - GE F110 (Turkey is developing an engine, however it's high risk development may rely on US engines if development falters)
Hurjet - GE F404 (Turkey does not plan on developing an engine for Trainer aircraft)

 

[Combat-Master]

550 parts of the TFX/MMU have been produced thus far.
Final assembly of the prototype expected to be completed by December this year.
Prototype roll-out on target for March of 2023.

 

[Combat-Master]

 

[Combat-Master]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1493624432908283911

View: https://twitter.com/BAESystemsAir/status/1493624432908283911?s=20&t=XBeTxfpsjvs81Qe8dTmlvQ

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine
View attachment 666431

The SFC on that suggests a pure turbojet design, not a low bypass ratio turbofan, unless the tech level is lower than say original F404.

The AI-222 was designed from 1999. The afterburner technology had to be developed in-house as Russia wouldn't help them. Turkey might be interested in that I guess?

my guess, the 9500 is based on scaled-up AI-222 technology with a lower bypass ratio. Something in the 0.2 - 0.3:1 range.

 

[Combat-Master]

In a recent interview, TAI CEO Temel Kotil confirmed a few aspects of the TFX;
- TFX will have Flank facing AESA radars located at the nose of the aircraft (see image above)
- TFX will have an separate engine cooling system on-board, which will cool the engines heat radiance to the frame and it's exhaust
- Pakistan Collaborating with Turkey on TFX programme

View: https://youtu.be/pSjHVpHf9x0?t=1083

 

[helmutkohl]

^ if Pakistan is on-board I guess their interest in acquiring the FC-31 or J-20 (if either is even offered for export), has gone down

 

[Combat-Master]

^ if Pakistan is on-board I guess their interest in acquiring the FC-31 or J-20 (if either is even offered for export), has gone down

Pakistan may still be interested in those chinese aircrafts, I don't think this dilutes those options. What I believe this indicates is that Pakistan may have shelved it's own fifth gen aircraft programme in favour of collaborating on TFX which has a better chance of becoming a reality.

 

[TMA1]

With Pakistan involvement would that cause issues with western support, as Pakistan is essentially a vessel state to China?

 

[UpForce]

Pakistan may still be interested in those chinese aircrafts, I don't think this dilutes those options. What I believe this indicates is that Pakistan may have shelved it's own fifth gen aircraft programme in favour of collaborating on TFX which has a better chance of becoming a reality.

A lot of people expressing interest in TFX, I guess it's a kind of an endorsement. Turkey, then, despite of economics woes (volatility of Turkish lira, etc.) does have choices in partners but on the other hand it is worrisome if different entities can just jump in (or out) on a whim.

Speaks to opportunism at the cost of strategic thought, an odd mix in such a long term and sensitive project. Pakistan's leadership seems to be a bit all over the place these days trying to hedge its bets; its many allegiances indeed come with high potential for compromise and chaos. Whether that can be withstood or in any way planned for is questionable - at this stage future export options should perhaps be a thing apart from ensuring that the project comes to fruition at all.

Given Russia's re-invasion of Ukraine and the instability stemming from that and the ostensible Ukrainian participation in TFX, Ukrainians might appreciate the possibility to migrate an even larger portion of their R&D, even production, on Turkish soil for the time being. Such an approach could garner a wider appreciation for its contribution to increased regional and geopolitical resilience than just mutual support between these two countries.

It's a complicated environment for sure, especially if Turkey is weighing sovereign capability against proposals of investment in terms of development speed.