TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Combat-Master]

"According to unconfirmed information that I obtained from our sources Turkey (TR Motor Power Systems) will soon sign a contract with Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine for cooperation in the development of a 35.000lb class turbofan engine (dubbed TF-141) to power TF-X aircraft."

"The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I (2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft will be powered by General Electric’s F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110- GE-129E version due to twin-engine configuration), and starting from Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain true 5th Generation capabilities with indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan engines featuring stealthy exhaust nozzles for low-observability."

- www.defenceturkey.com

 

[TomcatViP]

The targeted performances, as stated in the article above, seem pretty reasonable and right in the footsteps of the Korean project that so far has proved its worth.

 

[Combat-Master]

"The TurAF will gain Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with Block-I MMU/TF-X in 2031. According to TUSAŞ, deliveries of the first batch of 20 MMU/TF-X will be completed in 2034."

"On February 14, 2021 TR Motor Power Systems secured a contract from TUSAŞ for the design, development and manufacture (with technical support from Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine) of the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) and Air Turbine Start System (ATSS) to be installed on MMU/TF-X aircraft."

- www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Anduriel]

Hm, but Ivchenko-Prohress don't have much experienced on AFB turbofans, more so in such thrust class (their sole AFB engine AI322F) is in 8-9k lb thrust class. That's too ambitious and risky, IMO.

 

[totoro]

That really makes little sense, going with Ukraine to develop a brand new engine, especially in that class. That'll take easily a decade, and it will still lag behind what other sources might've yielded in performance. On paper, Ukraine can still make 75 kn engines or 200 kn engines. But using either of those as basis for a brand new 150 kn engine is not easy. It'd basically have to be a completely new engine. And just what sort of knowledge pool does Ukraine have left? Both of the engines mentioned are basically 1980s technology.

For the life of me, I don't see why Turkey wants to scale up its plane to 150 kn engines in the first place. It operates f-16s now. Why does it feel it needs to jump from F-16 to F-22 sized planes all of a sudden?

It'd be much easier and cheaper and faster if they stuck to a 100 kn class engine and scaled their jet accordingly. They'd have much more engines to choose from, both from the West and the East.

And if they DO want a 150 kn class engine - why not go with Russia, instead of Ukraine? Russia has at least proven it can develop new engine variants. Unlike Ukraine where the engineering/development prowess pool may have atrophied considerately in the last 30 years.

Is all this just maskirovka? Or is TFX really being handled in such an asinine way that certain subsystems are being negotiated on the basis of what's best for some individual sealing the deal rather on the basis of what's best for the Turkish armed forces and Turkish aerospace industry? I guess the latter MIGHT benefit more from Ukraine deal if Ukraine agrees to hand over pretty much ALL its knowledge for a decent price - and providing Russia/China/Other countries said they don't want to share any knowledge.
But even if that IS the case, it'd still mean a decade or more until TFX engine is ready, and even then it'd likely be an inferior engine, which is not really good for the armed forces.

 

[Combat-Master]

That really makes little sense, going with Ukraine to develop a brand new engine, especially in that class. That'll take easily a decade, and it will still lag behind what other sources might've yielded in performance. On paper, Ukraine can still make 75 kn engines or 200 kn engines. But using either of those as basis for a brand new 150 kn engine is not easy. It'd basically have to be a completely new engine. And just what sort of knowledge pool does Ukraine have left? Both of the engines mentioned are basically 1980s technology.

For the life of me, I don't see why Turkey wants to scale up its plane to 150 kn engines in the first place. It operates f-16s now. Why does it feel it needs to jump from F-16 to F-22 sized planes all of a sudden?

It'd be much easier and cheaper and faster if they stuck to a 100 kn class engine and scaled their jet accordingly. They'd have much more engines to choose from, both from the West and the East.

And if they DO want a 150 kn class engine - why not go with Russia, instead of Ukraine? Russia has at least proven it can develop new engine variants. Unlike Ukraine where the engineering/development prowess pool may have atrophied considerately in the last 30 years.

Is all this just maskirovka? Or is TFX really being handled in such an asinine way that certain subsystems are being negotiated on the basis of what's best for some individual sealing the deal rather on the basis of what's best for the Turkish armed forces and Turkish aerospace industry? I guess the latter MIGHT benefit more from Ukraine deal if Ukraine agrees to hand over pretty much ALL its knowledge for a decent price - and providing Russia/China/Other countries said they don't want to share any knowledge.
But even if that IS the case, it'd still mean a decade or more until TFX engine is ready, and even then it'd likely be an inferior engine, which is not really good for the armed forces.

They are really pushing it, they want the engine TF-141 first flight-ready by 2029/30

Conceptual CAD design TF-141 turbofan jet engine with a max thrust of 35,000lbs - https://www.trmotor.com.tr/anasayfa

 

[Deino]

That really makes little sense, going with Ukraine to develop a brand new engine, especially in that class. That'll take easily a decade, and it will still lag behind what other sources might've yielded in performance. On paper, Ukraine can still make 75 kn engines or 200 kn engines. But using either of those as basis for a brand new 150 kn engine is not easy. It'd basically have to be a completely new engine. And just what sort of knowledge pool does Ukraine have left? Both of the engines mentioned are basically 1980s technology.

For the life of me, I don't see why Turkey wants to scale up its plane to 150 kn engines in the first place. It operates f-16s now. Why does it feel it needs to jump from F-16 to F-22 sized planes all of a sudden?

It'd be much easier and cheaper and faster if they stuck to a 100 kn class engine and scaled their jet accordingly. They'd have much more engines to choose from, both from the West and the East.

And if they DO want a 150 kn class engine - why not go with Russia, instead of Ukraine? Russia has at least proven it can develop new engine variants. Unlike Ukraine where the engineering/development prowess pool may have atrophied considerately in the last 30 years.

Is all this just maskirovka? Or is TFX really being handled in such an asinine way that certain subsystems are being negotiated on the basis of what's best for some individual sealing the deal rather on the basis of what's best for the Turkish armed forces and Turkish aerospace industry? I guess the latter MIGHT benefit more from Ukraine deal if Ukraine agrees to hand over pretty much ALL its knowledge for a decent price - and providing Russia/China/Other countries said they don't want to share any knowledge.
But even if that IS the case, it'd still mean a decade or more until TFX engine is ready, and even then it'd likely be an inferior engine, which is not really good for the armed forces.

But still I'm MOST sceptical and the Ukrainian way with a company that has de facto no experience in modern afterburners high-thrust turbofan engines, which was almost up for sale to China and now has an uncertain future is IMO a partner that only brings additional uncertainty. Therefore I rate the reason for this way can only be than none of the other major players in aeroengine business was willing to provide their technology, not even at any cost. You simply don‘t sell your crown-jewellery for a few $$.

I know some won't like this, but but this decision is only yet another reason to see it my way.

Anyway, all the best and time will tell.

 

[totoro]

first flight ready by 2030? Does that refer to first flight test of the prototype? If so, that sounds the actual serial production engines may not reach TFX until latter half of 2030s.

And if THAT is true, does it then mean that A) Turkey plans to induct TFX only after 2035
or B) Turkey plans to fly it sooner, with interim engines bought from some other country and then eventually switch to domestic engines later on?

 

[Deino]

That really makes little sense, going with Ukraine to develop a brand new engine, especially in that class. That'll take easily a decade, and it will still lag behind what other sources might've yielded in performance. On paper, Ukraine can still make 75 kn engines or 200 kn engines. But using either of those as basis for a brand new 150 kn engine is not easy. It'd basically have to be a completely new engine. And just what sort of knowledge pool does Ukraine have left? Both of the engines mentioned are basically 1980s technology.

For the life of me, I don't see why Turkey wants to scale up its plane to 150 kn engines in the first place. It operates f-16s now. Why does it feel it needs to jump from F-16 to F-22 sized planes all of a sudden?

It'd be much easier and cheaper and faster if they stuck to a 100 kn class engine and scaled their jet accordingly. They'd have much more engines to choose from, both from the West and the East.

And if they DO want a 150 kn class engine - why not go with Russia, instead of Ukraine? Russia has at least proven it can develop new engine variants. Unlike Ukraine where the engineering/development prowess pool may have atrophied considerately in the last 30 years.

Is all this just maskirovka? Or is TFX really being handled in such an asinine way that certain subsystems are being negotiated on the basis of what's best for some individual sealing the deal rather on the basis of what's best for the Turkish armed forces and Turkish aerospace industry? I guess the latter MIGHT benefit more from Ukraine deal if Ukraine agrees to hand over pretty much ALL its knowledge for a decent price - and providing Russia/China/Other countries said they don't want to share any knowledge.
But even if that IS the case, it'd still mean a decade or more until TFX engine is ready, and even then it'd likely be an inferior engine, which is not really good for the armed forces.

They are really pushing it, they want the engine TF-141 first flight-ready by 2029/30

Conceptual CAD design TF-141 turbofan jet engine with a max thrust of 35,000lbs - https://www.trmotor.com.tr/anasayfa
View attachment 666400View attachment 666402View attachment 666401View attachment 666403

Pardon, but this is nothing but a fancy „what if“ CAD-look-alike and surely not a technically detailed proposal.

 

[Deino]

first flight ready by 2030? Does that refer to first flight test of the prototype? If so, that sounds the actual serial production engines may not reach TFX until latter half of 2030s.

And if THAT is true, does it then mean that A) Turkey plans to induct TFX only after 2035
or B) Turkey plans to fly it sooner, with interim engines bought from some other country and then eventually switch to domestic engines later on?

I think this was already clear since years … and again noted here:

"The TurAF will gain Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with Block-I MMU/TF-X in 2031. According to TUSAŞ, deliveries of the first batch of 20 MMU/TF-X will be completed in 2034."

"On February 14, 2021 TR Motor Power Systems secured a contract from TUSAŞ for the design, development and manufacture (with technical support from Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine) of the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) and Air Turbine Start System (ATSS) to be installed on MMU/TF-X aircraft."

- www.defenceturkey.com

 

[DWG]

That really makes little sense, going with Ukraine to develop a brand new engine, especially in that class. That'll take easily a decade, and it will still lag behind what other sources might've yielded in performance. On paper, Ukraine can still make 75 kn engines or 200 kn engines. But using either of those as basis for a brand new 150 kn engine is not easy. It'd basically have to be a completely new engine. And just what sort of knowledge pool does Ukraine have left? Both of the engines mentioned are basically 1980s technology.

For the life of me, I don't see why Turkey wants to scale up its plane to 150 kn engines in the first place. It operates f-16s now. Why does it feel it needs to jump from F-16 to F-22 sized planes all of a sudden?

It'd be much easier and cheaper and faster if they stuck to a 100 kn class engine and scaled their jet accordingly. They'd have much more engines to choose from, both from the West and the East.

And if they DO want a 150 kn class engine - why not go with Russia, instead of Ukraine? Russia has at least proven it can develop new engine variants. Unlike Ukraine where the engineering/development prowess pool may have atrophied considerately in the last 30 years.

Is all this just maskirovka? Or is TFX really being handled in such an asinine way that certain subsystems are being negotiated on the basis of what's best for some individual.

How much recent experience do Ivchenko-Progress have with ab-initio engine design, never mind high-end afterburning turbojets?

The core difference between selecting Ukraine as a partner and Russia is possibly the likelihood of Turkey finding itself in conflict with one or the other. Russian and Turkish spheres of influence overlap, and not in a good way, as we've seen in Syria. Having your prime fighter-force beholden for parts to a competing regional power could be awkward. The S-400 deal argues against this, but the logic making that a good deal for Turkey is particularly opaque.

WRT going beyond F-16s, Turkey was a major F-4 operator, so heavy fighters aren't an entirely new development. But I can't help feeling the primary operational requirement for TFX is President Erdogan's ego.

 

[Ainen]

How much recent experience do Ivchenko-Progress have with ab-initio engine design, never mind high-end afterburning turbojets?

Well, AI-222 family (used on Chinese L-15) is the only relatively recent entry.
My guess is it is the only proposal on the market which actually involves core engine tech transfer. They probably would rather not, but they lost their core market and yet want to live.
This is why Ukrainian engine companies are such hot potatoes (Chinese deal, then this).

 

[Combat-Master]

AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine

 

[Bhurki]

If i understand this page correctly, the only possibility to power TFX as of now is F100/1? (pertaining to design requirements)

 

[Geo]

AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine

If nothing else, at least they removed the red stars from Jozef Gatial's pic.

 

[Anduriel]

AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine
View attachment 666431

It's vaporware. And SFC looks horrible. Ole Al-31 has SFC 1.92 at AFB but 0.75 at MIL.

 

[totoro]

Yeah, that AI-9500F is basically a ghost. Almost zero mentions on it on Google. Likely just a paper project, not successfully marketed around, and a very recent one at that.

 

[Combat-Master]

Yeah, that AI-9500F is basically a ghost. Almost zero mentions on it on Google. Likely just a paper project, not successfully marketed around, and a very recent one at that.

AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine
View attachment 666431

It's vaporware. And SFC looks horrible. Ole Al-31 has SFC 1.92 at AFB but 0.75 at MIL.

From my understanding, the Ukrainians sought foreign investment in the development of it and offered to co-develop with Chinese for their FC-31 - the Chinese were set on buying out Ivchenko Progress recently till the Ukrainian government stepped in.

 

[Deino]

Yeah, that AI-9500F is basically a ghost. Almost zero mentions on it on Google. Likely just a paper project, not successfully marketed around, and a very recent one at that.

AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine
View attachment 666431

It's vaporware. And SFC looks horrible. Ole Al-31 has SFC 1.92 at AFB but 0.75 at MIL.

From my understanding, the Ukrainians sought foreign investment in the development of it and offered to co-develop with Chinese for their FC-31 - the Chinese were set on buying out Ivchenko Progress recently till the Ukrainian government stepped in.

But not for the FC-31 program. For this they have the WS-13 and WS-19 and surely any such project won't be able to contribute anything meaningful. Again, Progress was sought to be acquired for its helicopter engines and I'm still sure, for this engine, Progress can barely contribute anything or relevance.

 

[Combat-Master]

So parts are being produced for the first prototype; "The main carrier part that separates the Avionics Compartment and the Side Arms Compartment in the Front Mid-Frame"

"We produced the first part of our National Combat Aircraft. Every step we take for the future of our country is very meaningful and valuable for us. I would like to thank all my friends with whom we have walked the same path by working with enthusiasm and diligence."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1456152252301910019

View: https://twitter.com/Temel_Kotil/status/1456152252301910019?s=20

17 Months left before first prototype is revealed.

 

[tequilashooter]

Still would choose russia for engines over Ukraine because getting in a losing conflict with Russia without NATO to be dragged along their expeditions to Syria is a waste, better to not have serious conflicts to make life easier on choices. Theres also the consideration of their economy bouncing back up after Nordstream 2 and other arctic oil projects, I heard what stopped turkey before in getting in a conflict with them was threatening to shut their gas off(rebels funded was a waste in Syria for them since the oil pipeline project didn't come to be). They will never be in a serious conflict with Russia.Altay tanks, making their own 5th gens, their own air defenses , EW systems like Koral, f I have a top 5 military technology list with the U.S. and Russia already in it I would include Turkey on that list. With the s-400 which I am assuming has 2007 radars and new 150km air defenses with other air defenses being developed for longer ranges, I am beginning to see the purpose of the su-70 alot more with weapon choices like Larva-MD being applied, I don't want to get too excited expecting a war to brew but by the time they get TFX ready and Russia is their obstacle for Syria they will have a considerable amount of su-57s upgraded to the 2nd variant with a possibility of the knock on wood sukhoi lts being put into operation, by than the US or Russia might be testing 6th generation where both will have 3 stream cycle engines, GaN Aesa or being a believer, detonation engines with photonic radars on a separate interceptor project.

 

[Combat-Master]

Trickling in information as it comes;
Mr Kotil:
"TFX's wings will be one-piece composite"
"TFX will have a 122kw generator on-board" (not sure if it is just the one or two generators, wasn't clarified)

 

[stealthflanker]

I would expect 2 generators. so giving a total capacity of 244 KW.

 

[Combat-Master]

Temel Kotil - TAI GM
- Summer of 2022, the frame will near completion
- Towards the end of 2022, engines will be installed.
- 18th March 2023, will roll out of the hangar/engine start.
- 2 years of ground tests will follow after
-There will be 12 TFX prototypes built during it's development

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcHZVw36KaE&t=11s


On another note, not related to TFX but significant step in Turkish Aerospace - TAI has sold 8 tandem seat Hurkus-C turboprop aircraft to an undisclosed country, which will be revealed in 6 months (due to contractual obligations).

 

[GARGEAN]

So they have a year to figure out engines it will use at proto stage?

 

[Combat-Master]

GE F110-GE-129 selected for MMU Prototype & Development Phase.

 

[GARGEAN]

Already delivered?

 

[Combat-Master]

Probably. The engine hasn't been a cause for issue at the moment - We have gotten confirmation by TAI that GE did attain Export license for both F-110 and F-404 (Hurjet Trainer)

-----

Tubitak BILGEM are developing various computers for TFX;
-Real Time Operating System
-Central processing unit

Cakil central processing unit, 65nm, <1ghz, 64-bit RISC-V architecture, single core for proof of capability. Development of a 4-core architecture is currently underway.

 

[Anduriel]

GE F110-GE-129 selected for MMU Prototype & Development Phase.

Why no -132? It has 14.5 tf thurst, so if indigenous engine development will lag behind the schedule, they at least have good interim engine, like Su-57 with 117.

 

[Combat-Master]

GE F110-GE-129 selected for MMU Prototype & Development Phase.

Why no -132? It has 14.5 tf thurst, so if indigenous engine development will lag behind the schedule, they at least have good interim engine, like Su-57 with 117.

I would presume ease of integration (129E is twin-engine configuration friendly) and existing know-how by TEI to maintain it.

https://www.tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/f110-engine

 

[tequilashooter]

Russia might help Turkey to create 5th-generation fighter Jet Defence Cooperation Body

Russia might help Turkey to create 5th-generation fighter Jet Defence Cooperation Body

ednews.net

Moscow is in talks with Ankara about assistance in developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Director Dmitry Shugayev told Sputnik on Sunday.

"Russia has repeatedly expressed readiness to render assistance to the Republic of Turkey [in developing a fifth-generation fighter aircraft], and now we are negotiating this project," Shugayev said at the Dubai Airshow exhibition.

In October, Ankara said that the US offered Turkey to purchase F-16 jets after it was excluded from the F-35 supply program.

In April, the United States reportedly sent an official notification to Turkey about its exclusion from the production program of the latest F-35 fighter jets due to Ankara's purchase of the Russian S-400 air defence system.

 

[TMA1]

Not sure the Turks would work with russia that closely. Arent they essentially quarreling by proxy in Syria and the Caucasus region, among other issues? Also the Turks seem to have a distinctly western approach in their MIC.

 

[tequilashooter]

They cant always resolve problems by themselves their jackass stunt with the S-400 and NATO ignoring their support for incursions to Syria makes them realize they are either screwed by the west or east, so might as well try making friends.

 

[alberchico]

Not sure the Turks would work with russia that closely. Arent they essentially quarreling by proxy in Syria and the Caucasus region, among other issues? Also the Turks seem to have a distinctly western approach in their MIC.

Didn't the Russia- India partnership over the SU-57 essentially fall apart because the Russians were demanding exorbitant prices but not offering much in the way of technology transfers ? I feel like a Turkish- Russian partnership would run into the same issues. No nation is going to give up their crown jewels even if the price offered is high.

 

[tequilashooter]

Not sure the Turks would work with russia that closely. Arent they essentially quarreling by proxy in Syria and the Caucasus region, among other issues? Also the Turks seem to have a distinctly western approach in their MIC.

Didn't the Russia- India partnership over the SU-57 essentially fall apart because the Russians were demanding exorbitant prices but not offering much in the way of technology transfers ? I feel like a Turkish- Russian partnership would run into the same issues. No nation is going to give up their crown jewels even if the price offered is high.

maybe in assisting the tai-tfx in getting the 1st stage instead of 2nd stage engines?

 

[SgtGungHo]

Probably. The engine hasn't been a cause for issue at the moment - We have gotten confirmation by TAI that GE did attain Export license for both F-110 and F-404 (Hurjet Trainer)

-----

Tubitak BILGEM are developing various computers for TFX;
-Real Time Operating System
-Central processing unit

Cakil central processing unit, 65nm, <1ghz, 64-bit RISC-V architecture, single core for proof of capability. Development of a 4-core architecture is currently underway.
View attachment 667732
View attachment 667781

Frankly, I am skeptical of TAI's claims. Sanctions have been imposed on Turkey and I doubt the US congress approved such arms sale to Turkey. By the way, TAI and Turkey claimed that they obtained an export license for T129 this year and expected to deliever T129 to the Philippines sometime between Sept and Oct, but the Philippines did not receive the attack helicopter in Oct and there is no sign of the country receiving it even in November.

Even if somehow Turkey procures GE F110, the engine is not suitable for a 5th gen fighter aircraft without major modification and Tukrish engineers know it so their officials freely admit that prototypes will only be a 4.5th figher aircraft. So the engine for the final version is still very much in doubt and we have reputable sources from Turkey claiming it is Ukraine which has little experience & expertise in developing a turbofan engine for this class.



Yet, the CEO of TAI went on CNN TURK and made some ridiculous claims such as TF-X will be better than F-35

I reckon TAI has never seriously intended to design and build a 5th gen aircraft. Their goal has always been building a large 4.5th gen figher aircraft with two GE F110 engines and some characters of a 5th gen fighter. Turkey will still insist that the door remains open for a potential block by block upgrade to a 5th gen fighter aircraft in the future, though.

 

[Combat-Master]

TFX Titanium bulkhead - width of 5.3 and a height of 1.6 meters


TFX shares similarities to SU-57 stacked centreline weapon bays;

 

[stealthflanker]

Wow, TFX starts churning out parts. This leaves India which hasnt start building the AMCA.

 

[Ainen]

the engine is not suitable for a 5th gen fighter aircraft without major modification and Tukrish engineers know it so their officials freely admit that prototypes will only be a 4.5th figher aircraft.

Why it isn't suitable?
And what magic barrier separates 5 gen a/c from a 4.5 one in this case?

 

[helmutkohl]

TFX Titanium bulkhead - width of 5.3 and a height of 1.6 meters
View attachment 668084

TFX shares similarities to SU-57 stacked centreline weapon bays;
View attachment 668085View attachment 668086

interesting because the TUSAS site shows two side by side bays like hte F-22 instead of tandem ones

KAAN - TUSAS

KAAN

www.tusas.com