Surface Ships Need More Offensive Punch, Outlook

So "game changing" they went, "whoa, WTF were we thinking?" and removed the cranes from subsequent ships. :eek:


"It’s also a maneuver the Navy cannot yet do at sea. This demonstration took place while the destroyer Spruance was tied to the pier at Naval Air Station North Island, as a first step in creating a more expeditionary rearming capability."

Someone should have told these guys that.

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So "game changing" they went, "whoa, WTF were we thinking?" and removed the cranes from subsequent ships. :eek:

This is the trial of using a supply ship for alongside (rafted) rearming at a forward fleet anchorage. So, they're using a crane on the sending ship. And presumably something a bit smarter that the MK 41 VLS crane, which was terrible even when new. Today, it would be fairly straightforward to have an automatically compensated crane to smooth out the relative motion between ships and slip the missile into the designated cell guides without a lot of human intervention. Same way you see actively compensated gangplanks for getting crew off of OSVs and onto production rigs.
 
Just a sidenote: seems, that some surface ships also need more effective defensive "punch" (or, perhaps "block"?).
The case of "Moskva" sinking is examplery, just after 40 years of HMS Sheffield.
 
Just a sidenote: seems, that some surface ships also need more effective defensive "punch" (or, perhaps "block"?).
The case of "Moskva" sinking is examplery, just after 40 years of HMS Sheffield.
Should be pointed that by all accounts the Moskva gear havent worked in nearly a decade.

Which included her CIWS which should have handled it fairly easily. If they worked, which they didnt.

She was basically blind and defensiveless before adding in the bad weather she was in.

So not really a good example a modern warship defensive hit.

Niether is Sheffield, which it self was a comically of errors that ended in the Bridge crew watching the missile close in for over a minute before impact.

The best gear cant cover for user error, negligence or lack of training...

For a modern Example just look at the Attack on the USS Mason in 2016. From detect to interception was a total of 20 seconds. Not bad for being in one of the worse area for a modern ship short of proper battle.
 
If anybody is there who could take a nose-on shot comparing the two. . . ;)
 
LRASM mock-up?

No. It's an unsuccessful candidate for HALO.


LRASM looks like this:

LRASM_23_March_2022.6239e7b16d572.png
 
LRASM mock-up?

No. It's an unsuccessful candidate for HALO.


LRASM looks like this:

LRASM_23_March_2022.6239e7b16d572.png
I meant the B supersonic/hypersonic variant

LRASM-B was a Lockheed design. Similar look but not the same. This Northrop Grumman shape has more of a chined lifting body look to it. More like ASALM, but that was an LM (nee Martin Marietta) product as well. Probably just a case of convergent evolution; there's only so many ways a missile that fits the requirements can look.

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No. It's an unsuccessful candidate for HALO.
Unsuccessful?! Please, could you elaborate what's the story behind this? Thank you.

Not much to say. This is Northrop Grumman's proposed candidate. The Navy selected Lockheed Martin and Raytheon to develop prototrypes instead:

 
No. It's an unsuccessful candidate for HALO.
Unsuccessful?! Please, could you elaborate what's the story behind this? Thank you.

Not much to say. This is Northrop Grumman's proposed candidate. The Navy selected Lockheed Martin and Raytheon to develop prototrypes instead:

Did NG specifically say it was for HALO? The video said they were vague and the interviewer was speculating.
 
No. It's an unsuccessful candidate for HALO.
Unsuccessful?! Please, could you elaborate what's the story behind this? Thank you.

Not much to say. This is Northrop Grumman's proposed candidate. The Navy selected Lockheed Martin and Raytheon to develop prototrypes instead:

Did NG specifically say it was for HALO? The video said they were vague and the interviewer was speculating.

Fair point.

Apparently the NG reps told The War Zone that this wasn't prepared in response to a specific requirement, so maybe not HALO. (Then again, The War Zone can't tell the difference between HACM, where NG and Raytheon are teamed, and HALO, where we have no info about such a team, just Raytheon and LM competing against each other.)

 
Just a sidenote: seems, that some surface ships also need more effective defensive "punch" (or, perhaps "block"?).
The case of "Moskva" sinking is examplery, just after 40 years of HMS Sheffield.

Moskva was outdated and received very little modernization though?

You might as well complain that USS Warrington being damaged in Vietnam "proved" that contemporary escorts like Spruance are overly vulnerable to underwater attack. Nevermind that Warrington was struck by two American naval mines because she disregarded warnings about the area being a munition jettison area for attack aircraft.

The takeaway from Moskva, Sheffield, Stark, Swift, and Hanit is that modern anti-ship missiles can damage ships when crews do not expect to be attacked. The takeaway from Mason and Gloucester is that a crew at combat readiness expecting missile attacks is mostly immune to missile attacks. This is about as surprising as "bullets can hurt you if you get hit".

There is nothing "exemplary" about Moskva. It's actually an outlier, which is what you really mean, and it's notable because it was a big, old, unmodernized ship that fit the stereotype of Western perceptions of the Russian military which have seemingly not been updated since the 1990's. The exemplars, if anything, are the Gorshkovs and Grigorovichs that have thwarted similar repeat attacks with more modern air defense suites based on the Tor weapon system that can kill drones or helicopters attempting OTH targeting. "Exemplar" means "typical", after all, not "extraordinary".

If anything, ships need larger and overworked crews, and fewer training hours, and navies need more ships, but they won't get that until a war happens, and only after the war is over.
 
The exemplars, if anything, are the Gorshkovs and Grigorovichs that have thwarted similar repeat attacks with more modern air defense suites based on the Tor weapon system that can kill drones or helicopters attempting OTH targeting. "Exemplar" means "typical", after all, not "extraordinary".
Um it should be pointed out that both them been confirmed to been damage as well by smaller weapons like the Grad MLRS when they got too close early in the war.

As far everyone can tell only the the Moskva Attacks used proper Anti Ship Missiles so far with the Russian Navy staying FAR out of Harpoon range since those arrived.

So not really a good example either.
 
Yet they weren't sunk and the Neptune attack has yet to be repeated, let alone a conceptually simpler long-range attack by scout-bombers (TB-2), or something similar in nature. My point is that Moskva being sunk is more a Moskva issue, far more than a ships versus missiles issue, or a Russia versus Ukraine issue.

Ships get hit by missiles periodically and it's almost entirely due to a combination of events that the crew gets complacent and does not expect an incoming missile attack. The ships' crew's which do expect missile attacks more often than not do so on the shoulders of a complacent crew.
 
There has been no surface to surface combat between major warships using missile systems.
We know from missile attacks on single ships from Sheffield to Moskva that a ship can be sunk by a single weapon.
In other cases ships using better tactics and systems have been able to defeat missile attacks.
It seems reasonable that to be effective a modern warship should carry a surface to surface missile system able to defeat likely opponents together with a defence suite of electronics and weapons able to defeat tbreats ranging from small drones to shipkiller missiles. However, the smaller the unit the less offensive and defensive capability can be fitted.
Against a nuclear armed torpedo or hypersonic missile a surface unit is of course very vulnerable.
 
I don’t think anyone has any idea what happens when two peer competitors send dozens of anti shipping missiles at a formation. Real life tests are always only a few targets at most. I for one doubt the ability of modern combat systems to track and engage say 50-100 targets while friendly forces are also volleying a hundred defensive missiles and producing more target tracks. Plus perhaps ECM. I don’t think anyone knows what happens in a WWIII level naval engagement.
 
This a sad article. It’s like decisions made to lessen our firepower. As Columbia’s come online the newest remaining Ohio’s should be converted.
 
This a sad article. It’s like decisions made to lessen our firepower. As Columbia’s come online the newest remaining Ohio’s should be converted.

Umm, since when are SSGNs surface ships (see thread title).

Also, Virginia Block V would like a word.
 
This a sad article. It’s like decisions made to lessen our firepower. As Columbia’s come online the newest remaining Ohio’s should be converted.
navy-ship-building-plans.jpg
Is that replacement in 2045? I’m sure we won’t need their stealth and firepower til then…….
 
This a sad article. It’s like decisions made to lessen our firepower. As Columbia’s come online the newest remaining Ohio’s should be converted.
navy-ship-building-plans.jpg
Is that replacement in 2045? I’m sure we won’t need their stealth and firepower til then…….
The current SSGNs would be in their 60s in 2045. The other option is the VPM boats, which are being built.
 
Louisiana, Wyoming, Rhode Island and Maine 1994-97 refurbish and refit would be good into the mid 2030s?? and also accelerate and double Columbia production.

Yes it will never happen but a guy can dream. I’d also settle for a DDG(X) style stealth cruiser arsenal ship.
 

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