Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II [2012-current]
Empty weight w/o engines ?! Pls....
Yes, LM stated that frontal RCS in the centimetric radar bands of F-22A is 0.0001 cm2 ( only 1cm2,OMG) but all of that has nothing to do with reallity. By the way ,one of the tactical-technical demand in ATF program was to have fighter with 100 times smaller frontal RCS in comparison with then actual fighter-interceptor F-15C. So ~10 m2 : 100 is .... You can decrease some RCS by 10 or 100 times max ,not by 1000,million or billion because it is impossible to achieve, that is reallity. Because this is topic about Su-57 let us see what UAC represented about its Su-57E for the export .
All of numeric data have nothing to do with reallity.
Same thing is with the empty weight of Su-57. UAC or Sukhoi present that it is 18-19 tons but it has nothing to do with reality. E.g. about engines AL-41F or Izd 117 ,many sources mention that dry weight is about 1.5 tons but in reality that engine is 150 kgs lighter then old AL-31F,so 1530kgs -150kgs is ....
Again,AL-41F1 is 150kgs lighter then the old AL-31F. So we have 1530kg -150kg=1380kg and that is the dry weight of the Izdeliye 117.
Citation and source :
''Изделие 117
По сравнению с серийным АЛ-31Ф новый двигатель также стал на 150 кг легче и имел повышенную на 15-20% тягу, доведенную до 14-15 тонн.''
К истории проектов двигателя 5 поколения
К новости от 2018 года - ОАО АМНТК «Союз» г. Москва продолжает работу по разработке аванпроекта и определению конструктивного облика двиг..
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Now we can calculate T/W ratio for both static/ground and dynamic/in-flight thrusts including of course the weight with fluids that one engine needs.Suppose that weight with fluids is 1400 kg then we have a max possible static thrust on the Full AB mode of 15000kgf / in so called 'special regime' /and that weight with standard parameters: H=0,V=0,t=15°C. On the Full AB mode / in so called combat regime/ we have 14500kgf of thrust and that weight. What about dynamic thrusts ? E.g. during take of phase and climb phase to 1000m of height ,dynamic thrust can be almost 20000kgf (calculating temp,density off local air etc ), so it is variable. Now we can understand what real T/W ratio of one fighter with given weight and in given flight phase can be because calculating static thrust is completely wrong.
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paralay
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At a time when izd.30 did not exist yet, an insider reported that the thrust of the T-50 engines was brought up to 16,000 kgf...
Scorpion82
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Maybe the empty weight figure was only for the equipped airframe without engines? This could explain the difference and maybe the public empty weight figure is operational empty weight?
Just thoughts.
Edit: Saw now that this was already brought up.
Hi !
Demonstration flights are always performed with 50% of fuel in fighter on tarmac before pre-flight check. For me, it is interesting that some sources even Russian give info about 63% of fuel which is completely unlogic. How did anyone even come up with that number? What about balance and stability of the fighter ? 50% or 100% of fuel on the tarmac before pre-flight check. Fuel can be poured from up (free fall method) or from below by 'pressure method'. Of course 100% of fuel in internal tanks is always expected for combat missions.
Now this was really one ...
Su-57 crazy flying demonstration at ZhuHai Airshow 2024
Was that take off on Min AB mode ? From all maneuvers,stunts, one is so interesting for me personally and maybe can be real combat maneuver. From 5:45 ,Sergey went to right turn then suddenly, in the blink of the eye he made turn to the left. I've never see something like this before.
Sergey flew with 50% of fuel. He demonstrated flight-maneuvering performances and kinetic abilities of Su-57 with AL-41F. What would be like these demonstration flights if Su-57 had AL-51F instead of AL-41F. It is certain that with AL-51F ,Su-57 will have more power,more energy in take off and climb phase,in turning and in all maneuvers. Dynamic T/W ratio,SEP will be unprecedented.
I remembered that the Luftwaffe pilots who flew the MiG-29A said about it that it's a rocket considering that it climbed to a height of 11000m in about 54 seconds with an initial rate of climb at a height of 1000m of 330m/s. Su-57 with AL-51F will be a lightning. It is even now with AL-41F but with Izd 30 will be much better.
Attachments
Operational Su-57 even with AL-41F1 and armed with AAM's inside of FWC's and UWC's has pretty chance to fly in vertical plane, climb with supersonic speed through troposphere.
For comparison ,old 4th gen MiG-29 with its RD-33 ,50% of fuel and four AAM's has as mentioned initial rate of climb at 1000 m of 330m/s. Dynamic thrust of RD-33 in Full AB mode is 11000 kg , thus dynamic T/W is ?
MiG-29 can climb through troposphere with real speed of Mach 0.85
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any increase of dry/non afterburning thrust figure ? The baseline AL-41F1S was about 8800 Kgf.
paralay
ACCESS: Top Secret
These parameters are related. I believe that the maximum thrust of izd.117 is in the range of 9500 kgf - 10000 kgf
Forgot to comment this material. Some interesting and some questionable data we have there. E.g. fuel weight: 11 tons. Also about fuel tanks 'cause as we know Su-57 got that new PTB-3400.
Fuel weight(100%) is 9 tons or 11 tons ?
15000kgf or 16000kgf of the max static thrust on Full AB mode , never mind.
This is more important. With up to 10000kgf of max static thrust on MP mode ,long-term supercruise capability is not on question.
paralay
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Life of Tyo
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About integrating RAM layers on the skin of the each serial Su-57, KnAAZ factory has one special acclimatization chamber.
The whole process takes a little more than a month to complete work of application of RAM layers.
Translated citation:
''The process of applying a radio-absorbing coating/RAM on the Su-57 is complex; it uses newly developed and introduced into the production chain of RAM .Each layer of special coating has a special functional purpose and its own unique thickness, which depends on the area of application.
Using today's technologies, the entire cycle of step-by-step application of RPP takes just over a month. According to experts, technological capabilities and scientific developments make it possible to reduce the time required to complete this stage of work.''
Articles from 2021/22
В цехах КнААЗ идёт развертывание серийного производства истребителей Су-57 » Авиация России
Модернизация производства истребителя пятого поколения Су-57 на Комсомольском-на-Амуре авиазаводе им. Ю. Гагарина - филиале Компании "Сухой" завершится к 2024
aviation21.ru
На КнААЗ ввели в эксплуатацию холодильник для Су-57 » Авиация России
18 августа на Комсомольском-на-Амуре авиационном заводе им. Ю.А. Гагарина для обеспечения круглогодичного и бесперебойного производственного процесса введён в
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PeregrineFalcon
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Helo my friend!
I don’t know about the rule that Russians are flying demo with 50% of fuel?
Planes like Flanker series, or Felon can store huge amounts of fuel internally, and they have something called normal-maximum fuel capacity, which is less than 100% of fuel, somewhere around 6,5 tones of fuel if I remember correctly (I’m writing from my phone since my lap top broke down, and I have lost all my data regarding military aviation)?
Most of the Su-27 flight manual data is calculated with 50% of fuel from the normal-maximum fuel capacity, which is around 20 tones takeoff weight. When fueled at 100% of internal capacity, which is around 9,4 tones for the base Su-27, center of gravity is shifting forward considerably, and the planes flight performance is reduced. Russians are considering Su-27 with 100% of internal fuel like flying with the external fuel tanks, which is absolutely logical when we consider that F-22 with two external fuel tanks has shorter range than Su-27 with 4 air to air missiles and full internal fuel load.
So, it is absolutely reasonable for the demo planers to fuel the plane with amount that is higher or lower than 50% of maximum amount of internal fuel.
Some planes are flying with less than 50%, some are flying with more than 50%, and some are flying with 100% of fuel on board.
For example, F-22 demo is done with 100% of fuel most of the time. If the plane is flying with air to air missile load, the amount of fuel is less than 100%.
Some F-16 demos are flown with 50 to 70% of fuel, and some are done with 100%.
EF2000 demo is sometimes flown with 90% of fuel, sometimes that percentage is less.
Regarding the video you have posted, Su-57 pilot is actually not performing the shortest takeoff possible because he is very gentle on the throttle, and he is not using the brakes.
He is also lighting the burners just 2-3 seconds before liftoff.
Here is the video from another perspective, and in slow motion:
More than half the time during rollout the pilot is not using afterburners, and when he does, they are probably at 100% of power.
For the shortest takeoff distance he would need to press the brakes, select military power to build up the thrust, release the brakes and immediately hit the burners.
That way he would shorten the takeoff distance for at least 30%, or even more!
Even with the AL-41F-1 engines Su-57 is simply a monster!
We can also see how TVC is used to pitch the nose up together with the horizontal and vertical tails and LEVCON’s.
That maneuver at 5:45 Sergey Bogdan used to show the nose pointing capability of the Su-57, but at the same time to dump the speed and to prepare for landing.
I have seen both Su-57, and Su-35S performing that maneuver, and that is absolutely a combat maneuver used in the case there are multiple opponents in the airspace.
We can see that the pilot can turn in one side, use the HMS to launch the missile, and immediately turn to the other side and threaten, or launch the missile at another opponent.
Here is the video where we can see Su-57 performing similar stuff in horizontal and vertical plane:
PeregrineFalcon
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Like our friend “Squirrel” said, there are differences between layer thickness on different panels, and some panels don’t even require the RAM coating.
Су-57: как вдвое сократить цикл нанесения специальных покрытий на изделия
Это стало возможным благодаря реализации простой, но очень эффективной идеи.
1-up--pro-ru.translate.goog
What I have noticed, is that the lower part of the airframe is covered with much thicker RAM layer, compared to the upper part of the fuselage, which makes sense when we consider that the lower part is the one that is most of the time taking the “hits” from the ground based radars.
It is also apparent that the Su-57 is using thinner RAM layers compared to the F-22, and even F-35, especially at the upper part of the fuselage.
@PeregrineFalcon
If we compare Su-57 and Su-35S one video will give us better view of that which fighter has more energy in given flight phase.
www.1tv.ru
Don't know if someone has commented or translated this earlier. So the story is about simulated dogfight between Su-57 and Su-35S in the famous 929 GLITc in the Akhutbinsk air base. Right Su-35S test pilot asked Su-57's test pilot when he actually used AB mode.During climb or during turns.His answer was that he used AB mode only in the upper point of climb. Su-35S pilot concluded that Su-57is more powerfull. Of course Su-57 has better subsonic and especially supersonic aerodynamics,lower drag and more power.
If we compare Su-57 and Su-35S one video will give us better view of that which fighter has more energy in given flight phase.
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РÑоÑÑийÑкой аÑмии вовÑÑ Ð¸Ð´ÐµÑ Ð¿ÐµÑевооÑÑжение. Ðак никогда много новинок. Так, под ÐÑÑÑаÑанÑÑ Ð²Â Ð½ÐµÐ±Ð¾ поднимаеÑÑÑ Ð½Ð¾Ð²ÐµÐ¹Ñий иÑÑÑебиÑÐµÐ»Ñ Ð¿ÑÑого Ð¿Ð¾ÐºÐ¾Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¡Ñ-57 â ÑÑпеÑмаÑина. УникалÑнÑе...
www.1tv.ru
Don't know if someone has commented or translated this earlier. So the story is about simulated dogfight between Su-57 and Su-35S in the famous 929 GLITc in the Akhutbinsk air base. Right Su-35S test pilot asked Su-57's test pilot when he actually used AB mode.During climb or during turns.His answer was that he used AB mode only in the upper point of climb. Su-35S pilot concluded that Su-57is more powerfull. Of course Su-57 has better subsonic and especially supersonic aerodynamics,lower drag and more power.
For comparison, F-22A has three RAM layers .
''The F-22 requires three layers of coatings to reduce its radar signature, according to Olsen’s statements in his case. A primer seals the surface of the aircraft skin and helps with the adhesion of the next layer. Next, a conductive coating with silver flakes mixed with polyurethane materials is applied to keep radar waves from bouncing back to the emitter source. Finally, a topcoat layer has properties, including metallic materials, to reduce heat, which lowers the risk of radar detection.''
All 'stories' that Su-57 is not stealth fighter ends in front of this.
«ВНЕДРЕНИЕ СЕРИЙНОЙ ТЕХНОЛОГИИ НАНЕСЕНИЯ РАДИОПОГЛОЩАЮЩИХ ПОКРЫТИЙ НА ПЛАНЕР САМОЛЕТАПЯТОГО ПОКОЛЕНИЯ СУ-57 С ЦЕЛЬЮ СНИЖЕНИЯРАДИОЛОКАЦИОННОЙ ЗАМЕТНОСТИ»
“INTRODUCTION OF SERIAL APPLICATION TECHNOLOGY OF RADIO-ABSORBING COATINGS FOR AN AIRCRAFT AIRFRAME
OF THE FIFTH GENERATION Su-57 WITH THE GOAL OF REDUCING RCS"
A flanker with 100% fuel is too much for a demo flight, I think you can over stress the airplane 100% fuel if you try to pull too many gs. I imagine 40% is the sweet spot for a demo in a flanker. Same must apply to a su-57.
From the book : ''Самолёт СУ-27СК. Руководство по лётной эксплуатации. Книга 1'' or 'Su-27SK Flight Manual'.
1. Максимальная эксплуатационная перегрузка при расчетном полетном весе 21400 кг:
Пу макс = 8,0 при М≤0,85
Пу макс = 6,5 при 0,85<М≤1,25
Пу макс = 7,0 при М>1,25
2. Для весов, отличающихся от расчетного полетного веса, перегрузка устанавливается из расчета:
m•Пу макс = const = 171000 кг при М<0,85, но не более Пу = 9,0
m•Пу макс = const = 139000 кг при 0,85<М≤1,25, но не более Пу = 7,0
Пу макс = 8,0 при М≤0,85
Пу макс = 6,5 при 0,85<М≤1,25
Пу макс = 7,0 при М>1,25
2. Для весов, отличающихся от расчетного полетного веса, перегрузка устанавливается из расчета:
m•Пу макс = const = 171000 кг при М<0,85, но не более Пу = 9,0
m•Пу макс = const = 139000 кг при 0,85<М≤1,25, но не более Пу = 7,0
m•Пу макс = const = 150000 кг при М>1,25, но не более Пу = 7,5
3.Масса топлива: кг 9400 / 5240 , Полный / основной (неполный) вариант заправки
Transl. :
1.Max operational G-load with calculated TOW of 21.4 t
Max G-load=real speed
2.For weights different from the calculated TOW, the G-load is set from the calculation:Transl. :
1.Max operational G-load with calculated TOW of 21.4 t
Max G-load=real speed
Max G-load=aerodynamic pressure ,real speed,G-load limitation
3.Fuel mass : full and basic variant of refueling
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Initial ATF spec, yeah, kinda, but you seem to have missed the part where the RCS requirement changed and was drastically increased.
You can believe that, but it doesn't make it true.
Hi !
I recommend you to look and hear what one of leader Russian experts for the RCS testings Sergey Nesterov told to Aleksey Egorov author of the famous TV show 'Military acceptance' from 19:25 about possible RCS reduce procedures. He told to Aleksey that all capable stealth technologies and applied procedures can reduce the RCS in the centimetric, decimetric and metric radar working bands by several tens to a hundred times ( as max value).
By the way it was reportage made in 2018 about 2nd Central Scientific Research Institute of the Air and Space Army based in the vicinity of the city of Tver.
P.S. If you want something to be translated I will glad do that.
VK.com | VK
m.vk.com
By the way ,when topic about Su-57's RCS comes up, I will give some data and info from the leading Russian experts in that domain,Andrey Lagarkov,Mikhail Pogosyan,Sergey Yagolynikov...
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And, due to the radar range equations, that would make "stealth" impossible to achieve. A 100 fold reduction in RCS only halves detection range.
So either US scientists and engineers lied on a grand scale and conned the US Government out of trillions of dollars, or Sergey Nesterov is incorrect. I note his viewpoint on Stealth handily corresponds with what Russia has achieved.
So either US scientists and engineers lied on a grand scale and conned the US Government out of trillions of dollars, or Sergey Nesterov is incorrect. I note his viewpoint on Stealth handily corresponds with what Russia has achieved.
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I think he meant they were experts in Su-57 RCS, specifically. But yes, agreed.
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Hi !
ФУНДАМЕНТАЛЬНЫЕ И ПРИКЛАДНЫЕ ПРОБЛЕМЫ СТЕЛС-ТЕХНОЛОГИЙ
А.Н. Лагарьков, М.А. Погосян
Стелс-технологии Су-57 — приоритет передней полусфере
Стелс-технологии Су-57 - приоритет передней полусфере » Авиация России
Видимость современного истребителя в радиолокационном поле характеризуется величиной эффективной поверхности рассеяния (ЭПР) - одной из характеристик, которая
aviation21.ru
Су-57 — рождён невидимкой
Су-57 - рождён невидимкой » Авиация России
Мы продолжаем рассказ об истребителе пятого поколения Су-57. В третьей части речь пойдёт о технологиях малой заметности и силовой установке самолёта.
aviation21.ru
About S. Jagolnikov ,he was only the head of the 2nd CNII in Tver.
Сергей Васильевич Ягольников | автор журнала «ВКС»
P.S. Mikhail Pogosyan was chief designer and conctructor of the famous Russian technological demonstrator of stealth technologies S-37 ,widely known as Su-47 Berkut with almost all composite forward swept wings.
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If you watched that reportage, you could see that they have models / mock-ups of practically every Western/ NATO aircraft and even space assets . Sergey Nesterov said in one moment that they had and tested the B-2A model ten years before it became operational at all!
In that institute, theoretical and practical testing of the RCS of all Western aircraft, from airplanes to rockets/missiles is carried out. Theoretically, with mathematical modeling and computer simulations and practically on the test ground that was shown to Aleksey.
About some frontal RCS values , former USAF strategic low-flying subsonic stealth cruise missile type AGM-129A ACM had frontal RCS in centimetric band of 0.01 sqm.As we know ,that missile had all composite skin with RAM and that mat-black color like in F-117A with even forward swept wings.All that was for RCS reducing.
RadicalDisconnect
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Again the Su-57 needs to contend with internal weapons bays and more internal fuel volume than the Su-27, 9,700 kg versus 9,400 kg. All this adds to weight, and it’s implausible that it somehow weighs less. And again about Al-Li 1461 alloy, insider reports from 2016 already reports the troubles that Sukhoi and KNAAZ had with the material and gradually abandoned it and it was confirmed by Sukhoi’s own publication in their 85th anniversary book. And Su-57 also uses a lot less titanium than Su-27 to reduce costs, and save savings were mainly attempted by using composites and 1461 Al-Li alloy but the Al-Li alloy didn’t really pan out.
As for F-22 empty weight, again its already mentioned that its weight without the engines. Both USAF and Lockheed official sources have said the empty weight is 43,340 lbs or 19.7 metric tons. And it makes sense when you consider that the F-15E empty weighs 34,600 lbs or about 15.7 metric tons, so how can the empty weight of F-22 be lighter than that when it carries more fuel, has internal weapons bays, etc?
The izd.117 is AL-41F1 and it’s largely the same engine as the izd.117S or AL-41F1S with primary difference in control unit and ignition system. So how can the AL-41F1 weigh over 200kg less than AL-41F1S?
Where are these steadily increasing thrust figures coming from? FYI, thrust numbers achieved on a test bench is not the same as the rated thrust. The izd.117 has 9 tons of thrust dry, 14.5 tons of thrust in AB and 15 tons in single engine emergency power, slightly higher than 117S.
And again, the 2013 purported “radioscanners” claim run directly against Sukhoi’s report on envelope expansion from 2014 from PI-1.
As far as test pilot testimonies, I take those with a grain of salt, and it’s not just from Russia. I can point to all sorts of claims from all countries in the west that are exaggerated. You keep hearing these stories of F-111 almost reaching Mach 3 or Panavia Tornado reaching Mach 1.3 or 850+ knots at sea level, or the F-14 accelerating from 250 knots to over 600 knots in less than 10 seconds. Yet none of these I believe either. Written documentation and actual data tops pilot stories.
RadicalDisconnect
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Also, one reason the Su-27 is quite light for its size, is that structurally it only has 171,000kg of overload, which means it’s 9g capable only when it weighs 19,000kg or less. And while Su-57 may also save some weight by not requiring full overload at full internal payload, it’s still not going to bring the empty weight to less than the Su-27 for all the reasons given.
Again, it’s implausible for Su-57 to weigh less than Su-27 when it has more internal fuel volume, and large internal weapons bays. And even more so considering the F-22 weight 19.7 tons, and the Su-57 carries more fuel, larger internal bay capacity, and has similar amount of composites.
Again, it’s implausible for Su-57 to weigh less than Su-27 when it has more internal fuel volume, and large internal weapons bays. And even more so considering the F-22 weight 19.7 tons, and the Su-57 carries more fuel, larger internal bay capacity, and has similar amount of composites.
paralay
ACCESS: Top Secret
Su-57 volume - 60.4 m3
Su-35S volume - 69.4 m3
F-22 volume - 65.3 m3
F-35A volume - 49.7 m3
About Alloy V-1461 first ,one citaiton:
''What are the third generation aluminum-lithium alloys?
In recent years, our scientists have developed modern high-strength and high-resource third-generation aluminum-lithium alloys: V-1461, V-1469, V-1480 and V-1481,which in their characteristics are superior to foreign analogues and are an alternative to the main structural aluminum alloys 1163 and V95, widely used in the domestic aircraft industry.''
About empty weight ,so we have empty weight w/o engines,maybe w/o radar and other el.equipment? What does fuel capacity have with empty weight at all ? I will mention again ,F-22A with so big % of light Ti Alloys and even lighter composites has the same empty weight as the MiG-25 ( about 20tons) which has 80% of much heavier stainless Steel in its structure.Where is the logic?
One source for comparative analyses:
Is Titanium Stronger Than Steel?
Two of the most prominent options when selecting materials for engineering and industrial purposes are titanium and stainless steel.
www.austgen.com.au
Again,AL-41F is 150kgs lighter then old AL-31F not AL-41F1S. I did not mention AL-41F1S but AL-31F .
F-15A/C is even lighter then Su-27/P. Not less but in the same level,about 16.5 tons. About two FWC ,those are empty spaces ,aren't they ?
PeregrineFalcon
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Yes, you will probably never see Flanker doing demo with 100% of fuel because there is no need for that. With 60% of fuel Su-27 can have about the same range as F-15 with 100% of fuel, and in doing so it will achieve considerably better flight performance.
And you can’t over stress the airframe with 100% of fuel because there is a G limit for that configuration, and since the Su-27 has very long “neck” you will shift the center of gravity forward, and in doing so you will worsen lift to drag ratio and the plane will become to stable and sluggish, so most likely you will not be able to pull 9G’s anyway.
But the Russians have had air show demos with the weight that considerably exceeded gross weight of 9,4 tones (max internal fuel capacity).
That is air show demo with 7 tones of weapons load, plus at least 50% of fuel.
But all that weight is located around the center of gravity, so the plane can remain highly maneuverable for that gross weight and drag.
The same rules that apply for the Su-27 don’t apply for the Su-57.
Su-57 has shorter airframe and it is significantly more unstable, which means that the shift in Cg forward will have less of a negative effect, especially when we consider that the Su-57 is using LEVCON’s to modulate the center of lift.
With the same amount of fuel, Su-57 will always remain more responsive and maneuverable compared to the Su-27, and will be able to pull more G’s.
To continue the story about construction materials if I can. So we have that Al-Li Alloy V-1461(not 1441 as mentioned before, sorry ,RadicalDisconnect was right) with about 50% of the empty weight of the serial Su-57. As we know this metallic structure material is applied in complete structure of air intakes and centroplane,in that big upper cross section of the centroplane,leading edges of the wings and LEVCON's ,complete carrying inner and skin structure of the vertical stabilizers then in the inner and partially in the skin structure of the horizontal stabilizers.Also it is applied on the places where the wing hardpoints are and as structural carrying inner parts of the wings. Al-Li Alloy V-1641 is welded with Argon. As mentioned before, Al-Li Alloy V-1641 is easily to identify by its yellow color.
Besides this Al-Li Alloy ,another very important and second in percentage of empty weight is Titanium Alloy VT22. About 20% is the part of this Alloy in the empty weight.
''высокопрочные конструкционные титановые сплавы
BТ22 – высокопрочный свариваемый титановый сплав с высокойпрокаливаемостью широко применен в изделиях авиационной техники: Ил-76, Ил-86, Ил-96-300, Ан-72, Ан-74, Ан-124, Ан-224, Ан-148,Як-42, Бе-200, Ту-204, МиГ-29, Т-50 и др. Сплав предназначен и применяется для изготовления крупногабаритных деталей внутреннегосилового набора (балок, лонжеронов, шпангоутов, нер-вюр, рельсовзакрылков и предкрылков), а также крупногабаритных силовых деталей и узлов шасси, в том числе сварных (траверс, балок тележекосновных шасси, шлиц-шарниров, тормозных рычагов). Из сплаваВТ22 изготовляют следующие виды полуфабрикатов: поковки, штамповки, прутки, плиты, прессованные профили.''
Source: https://viam.ru/sites/default/files/uploads/booklets/pdf/alumin_2012.pdf
This Alloy is used as the main structural material for the engine nacelles .Also in combination with mentioned Al-Li Alloy is used as inner structural material of centroplane and wings especially of connectors for the wings and centroplane.Titanium Alloy VT22 is welded by the beam of electrons in the vacuum chamber. Ti Alloy VT22 has grey color.
Al-Li Alloy V-1416 in inner structure of air intake,
Same Alloy in the structure of the air intake's skin.
Al-Li Alloy and Titanium Alloy VT22 in the inner structure of centroplane.
Ti-Alloy VT22 as the main structural material of the engine nacelles.
About polymer composit materials they are produced by the 'Himcomposit', 'Aerocomposit' and ОNNP Technologiya factories. Аbout 20% is the part in the empty weight of serial Su-57.It is interesting that composite skin panels have high resistance to lightning and have own fiber optic monitoring.Besides this,there is special ground laser monitoring system for the composite skin panels. Autoclave technology is used for producing composite skin panels.Composite skin panels have grey/bluish-grey color depends on light intensity.
Polymer composite skin panels.
Bluish-grey color under the light.
Another combination of that yellow and bluish-grey colors.
Sources:
ru.regalcomposites.com
www.aviaport.ru
bmpd.livejournal.com
Besides two mentioned metallic structural materials-Alloys ,there is also Stainless Steel that is used in engines AL-41F1/AL-51F and some other components.Steel Alloys and other structural materials have about 10% part in the empty weight.
It is interesting to note that plasma technology is used for application of the special white color metal components inside of the nozzles. Steel Alloys usually have grey/light grey color.
Left engine ready for installation inside of the engine nacelle.
We already know that in serial production workers in KnAAZ factory use '3D-technologies' and AR-technologies;
mashnews.ru
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWWSUrGB_-4
Additional sources:
aviation21.ru
As Aleksey Egorov said in the start of his reportage about T-50/Su-57 several years ago, it is aircraft made of composites,oil he said.Of course that is not the fact 'cause as we know now serial Su-57 even has less composites then many prototypes.
As Aleksey Egorov said in the start of his reportage about T-50/Su-57 several years ago, it is aircraft made of composites,oil he said.Of course that is not the fact 'cause as we know now serial Su-57 even has less composites then many prototypes.Su-57 is made by combo of metal/non-metal materials with many compromises and with goal to achieve all tactical-technical demands of the PAK-FA project.
yandex.ru
As Sukhoi test pilot Andrey Shendrick used to say ones ,Su-57 is harmonic and properly made.
''«Практика показывает, что красивый самолет хорошо летает. Это говорит о том, что он гармоничен, что он скомпонован правильно. Это действительно работает: хороший самолет —красивый», — отмечает летчик-испытатель Андрей Шендрик.''
www.1tv.ru
P.S. Sorry if some pics are repeated.
Besides this Al-Li Alloy ,another very important and second in percentage of empty weight is Titanium Alloy VT22. About 20% is the part of this Alloy in the empty weight.
''высокопрочные конструкционные титановые сплавы
BТ22 – высокопрочный свариваемый титановый сплав с высокойпрокаливаемостью широко применен в изделиях авиационной техники: Ил-76, Ил-86, Ил-96-300, Ан-72, Ан-74, Ан-124, Ан-224, Ан-148,Як-42, Бе-200, Ту-204, МиГ-29, Т-50 и др. Сплав предназначен и применяется для изготовления крупногабаритных деталей внутреннегосилового набора (балок, лонжеронов, шпангоутов, нер-вюр, рельсовзакрылков и предкрылков), а также крупногабаритных силовых деталей и узлов шасси, в том числе сварных (траверс, балок тележекосновных шасси, шлиц-шарниров, тормозных рычагов). Из сплаваВТ22 изготовляют следующие виды полуфабрикатов: поковки, штамповки, прутки, плиты, прессованные профили.''
Source: https://viam.ru/sites/default/files/uploads/booklets/pdf/alumin_2012.pdf
This Alloy is used as the main structural material for the engine nacelles .Also in combination with mentioned Al-Li Alloy is used as inner structural material of centroplane and wings especially of connectors for the wings and centroplane.Titanium Alloy VT22 is welded by the beam of electrons in the vacuum chamber. Ti Alloy VT22 has grey color.
Al-Li Alloy V-1416 in inner structure of air intake,
Same Alloy in the structure of the air intake's skin.
Al-Li Alloy and Titanium Alloy VT22 in the inner structure of centroplane.
Both metallic materials in the inner carrying structure of the wing.
Ti-Alloy VT22 as the main structural material of the engine nacelles.
About polymer composit materials they are produced by the 'Himcomposit', 'Aerocomposit' and ОNNP Technologiya factories. Аbout 20% is the part in the empty weight of serial Su-57.It is interesting that composite skin panels have high resistance to lightning and have own fiber optic monitoring.Besides this,there is special ground laser monitoring system for the composite skin panels. Autoclave technology is used for producing composite skin panels.Composite skin panels have grey/bluish-grey color depends on light intensity.
Polymer composite skin panels.
Bluish-grey color under the light.
Another combination of that yellow and bluish-grey colors.
Sources:
Новые композиционные материалы на истребителе Су 57 - новости
Новые композиционные материалы на истребителе Су 57
ОАК и ученые РАН представляют технологию мониторинга композиционных конструкций на основе оптоволокна // АвиаПорт.Новости
Объединенная авиастроительная корпорация в ходе авиасалона МАКС 2015 представит технологию мониторинга конструкций из композиционных материалов на основе оптико-волоконных датчиков
www.aviaport.ru
"Ростех" займется производством композитов для серийных истребителей Су-57
Как сообщила 22 ноября 2019 года Государственная корпорация Ростех, она приступает к выпуску деталей и агрегатов из полимерных композиционных материалов для серийного производства истребителя пятого поколения Су-57. Соответствующий контракт, первый в производственной кооперации по…
bmpd.livejournal.com
Су-57 добавят композитов
Истребитель пятого поколения Су-57 продолжает совершенствоваться. Обнинское НПП «Технология» увеличит выпуск композитных материалов для производства этого самолета. Предприятие, входящее в Госкорпорацию Ростех, нарастило выпуск новых материалов, которые, имея небольшой вес, прочнее не только...
airreview.ru
Лазерные технологии обезопасят СУ-57
Тихоокеанская звезда — ежедневная общественно-политическая газета, издающаяся в Хабаровском крае, одна из старейших партийных непрерывно издающихся газет Дальнего Востока.
toz.su
Besides two mentioned metallic structural materials-Alloys ,there is also Stainless Steel that is used in engines AL-41F1/AL-51F and some other components.Steel Alloys and other structural materials have about 10% part in the empty weight.
It is interesting to note that plasma technology is used for application of the special white color metal components inside of the nozzles. Steel Alloys usually have grey/light grey color.
Left engine ready for installation inside of the engine nacelle.
We already know that in serial production workers in KnAAZ factory use '3D-technologies' and AR-technologies;
Для изготовления деталей истребителя Су-57 активно применяют 3D-печать
Использование методов аддитивных технологий позволяет быстро доработать конструкцию какого-либо отдельного агрегата.
mashnews.ru
Workers on assembly line of Su-57 use augmented reality
Additional sources:
Production line of the Sukhoi Su-57 at a KnAAZ plant [album]
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/comments/xs39mi/production_line_of_the_sukhoi_su57_at_a_knaaz/#lightbox
Под серийную сборку Су-57 на КнААЗ выполнено техническое перевооружение производства » Авиация России
В июне 2019 года на форуме "Армия" Минобороны РФ и компания "Сухой" подписали контракт на поставку в ВКС России до 2027 года 76 серийных истребителей Су-57.
aviation21.ru
As Aleksey Egorov said in the start of his reportage about T-50/Su-57 several years ago, it is aircraft made of composites,oil he said.Of course that is not the fact 'cause as we know now serial Su-57 even has less composites then many prototypes.
As Aleksey Egorov said in the start of his reportage about T-50/Su-57 several years ago, it is aircraft made of composites,oil he said.Of course that is not the fact 'cause as we know now serial Su-57 even has less composites then many prototypes.Su-57 is made by combo of metal/non-metal materials with many compromises and with goal to achieve all tactical-technical demands of the PAK-FA project.
Яндекс — поиск по видео
As Sukhoi test pilot Andrey Shendrick used to say ones ,Su-57 is harmonic and properly made.
''«Практика показывает, что красивый самолет хорошо летает. Это говорит о том, что он гармоничен, что он скомпонован правильно. Это действительно работает: хороший самолет —красивый», — отмечает летчик-испытатель Андрей Шендрик.''
СÑ-57 â звезда ÐаÑада на ÐÑаÑной плоÑади: заÑваÑÑваÑÑее видео дейÑÑвиÑелÑно кÑаÑивого ÑамолеÑа. ÐовоÑÑи. ÐеÑвÑй канал
9 маÑ â ÐÐµÐ½Ñ ÐобедÑ. ÐоеннÑй паÑад на ÐÑаÑной плоÑади. Ðвезда паÑада â боевой ÑÐ°Ð¼Ð¾Ð»ÐµÑ Ð¡Ñ-57. ÐÐ¾Ñ Ð¾Ð½. ÐбÑолÑÑнÑй и законÑеннÑй ÑедевÑ. ÐоÑÑойнÑй гиганÑов ÐозÑождениÑ. ÐÐ¼Ñ Ð½ÐµÑ ÑавнÑÑ Ð²Â...
www.1tv.ru
P.S. Sorry if some pics are repeated.
Last edited:
PeregrineFalcon
ACCESS: Restricted
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Actually, the main difference according to the Evgeniy Marchukov (beside the ones you have mentioned) is in materials used for the compressor blades, since the AL-41F-1S could not withstand significant increase in operating temperatures.
There is no official information on the AL-41F-1 engine thrust numbers as far as I know. We have official numbers for the AL-41F-1S, but not for the Al-41F-1. We have various hints for the 15 tones of thrust, and If we exclude the info from the insiders that claim that the engine is producing 16 tones of thrust, there was official statement for the engines T-75 can use, and there was two engine options, one with the 14,5 tones of thrust, and the second one with the 16 tones of thrust.
I assume that the 14,5 t option is AL-41F-1S, and 16 t option is AL-41F-1, since the AL-51F-1 was not finished, and my guess is that it will produce more than 16 t of thrust.
That being said, I might be wrong?!
And the info I have posted for the 2013 performance achievement is not coming from the “radioscanners”, but from the Mikhail Strelets himself.
That is not correct, Su-27 was primarily designed to be air superiority fighter like the F-15C, and its weight is in line with its intended role.
171000 kg number is actually the amount of lift in kg Su-27 can generate below Mach 0,85 not exceeding 9G, which is simply huge if we assume it is done at 21400 kg and 8G limit.
And of course, the plane is capable of pulling 9G at weight going over 19000kg.
For example, at 3000 m altitude, the plane can sustain 9G’s at 900 km/h IAS, weighing 20000 kg.
At 21400 kg, the plane is limited to 8 G’s, and can pull that amount of G’s at just Mach 0,46 (achieving close to 30 deg/s ITR), but that is exploitation limit in peace time conditions. In war time conditions that limit is lifted and the plane can easily pull 9 G’s at that weight.
Similar limitations are applied to other fighters, like F-15C etc. for the purpose of prolonging the airframe life.
I also don’t think that the Su-57 is lighter, or as light as Su-27, but the Felon has few areas where it saves a lot of weight.
From the interview with the the chief designer of the aircraft, Alexander Davydenko:
“Доля композитных материалов в общей массе пустого самолета составляет 25%. По поверхности самолета - 70%", - сказал А.Давиденко в понедельник журналистам.
Он отметил, что широкое применение композитных материалов в конструкции самолета позволяет снизить его массу, а также существенно облегчить подготовку серийного производства. "Благодаря применению композитных материалов существенно сократилось количество деталей: по сравнению с самолетом Су-27 количество деталей уменьшилось в четыре раза", - отметил А.Давиденко.”
Unlike the Su-27, Su-57 is having 25% of composites in its structure, which is drastically more than the Su-27, and it has 4 times less parts. That alone is reducing the weight significantly. Many other components are also made to be lighter, such as for example fuel sensors and fuel installations that are smaller and lighter than legacy systems, and unlike all previous Russian 4th generation fighters that use polyurethane foam inside the fuel tanks that provide protection from the fuel ignition in the case of projectile hit, the Su-57 is using inert/neutral gas which is reducing the amount of oxygen almost to zero. Since the fuel needs oxygen to ignite and explode, in the case of the projectile hit the fuel tanks will be protected, and at the same time you can store more fuel inside because there is no polyurethane foam that takes up a certain volume of space.
Next, Su-57 is using incomparably lighter avionics. For example, Su-35S with its lighter/smaller avionics made a space for additional 2,1 tones of fuel, which was before taken by the huge legacy electronic blocks.
Su-57 has smaller wings with longer cord length and thinner airfoil, which doesn’t require as much strengthening as the longer, ticker wings of the Su-27, but can store significant amount of fuel because of greater surface and better usage of internal space.
Where the Su-57 gains the weight over the Su-27 is airframe strengthening for the higher MTOW, and because internal weapons bays require additional strengthening.
But the Su-57 airframe layout is superior to the F-22 from the point of weight savings, useful volume, and flight performance.
Overall body of the Su-57 is made out of different type of airfoils, which create huge amount of lift and in turn provide the possibility to install the wings with small relative thickness and sharp sweep angle (sharper than F-22 and much sharper than F-35) which in turn translates to excellent transonic and supersonic characteristics. The trapezoidal wing has a negative sweep of the trailing edge, which makes it possible to achieve high values of chord lengths in the root part, and to reduce the relative thickness of the wing in this zone at high values of the absolute thickness of the wing.
This solution is aimed at simultaneously reducing the wave resistance at transonic and supersonic flight speeds, as well as increasing the fuel capacity in the wing tanks.
The consequence of the Su-57 flattened layout is a uniform distribution of the air load/pressure over the surface of the airframe and an increase in the load-bearing properties of the fuselage in terms of creating lift, which makes it possible to maintain the excellent aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft as a whole with a smaller wing area and less airframe strengthening.
On the other hand, F-22 is using huge S shaped intakes that curve in horizontal and vertical plane occupying huge amount of space that could otherwise be used for more fuel and bigger/deeper weapons bay, and what is worse, they have placed the main weapons bay below the intakes, and fast weapons bay to the side of each intake.
That creates huge midsection (which is not so good for the best lift to drag ratio) that has “holes” above the holes, with the holes on the each side. So, we have huge surface of empty space that is far more demanding from strengthening point of view, when compared to the Su-57 layout.
F-22 bulkheads have to be much more ticker to be able to provide the most optimal performance.
Not to mention other reasons why F-22 is so heavy, like the engines that are significantly heavier than the Su-57 engines, main contributor to the huge weight of the engine being the 2D TVC nozzle.
F-22 also needs to store over 8 tones of fuel inside the fuselage, and that requires additional increase in midsection, and it also has much bigger wings than Felon, and because it doesn’t have the same blended wing-body configuration, the load distribution is not as uniformed, and all that requires additional strengthening at contact points.
On top of that Su-57 designers are claiming that the plane is lighter and faster than F-22, and there is absolutely no reason to doubt that.
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Judging by this diagram,max static thrust in Full AB mode ( special regime) is between 15000kgf and 16000kgf.
Soruce: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3221633.html
Soruce: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3221633.html
paralay
ACCESS: Top Secret
Friend ,when we talk about MTOW ,again data from the Su-27SK's Flight Manual :
''Максимальная взлетная масса 33000 кг (при установке колеса КН-41 с шиной модели 017А и колеса КТ-156Д с шиной модели 2А).
Максимальная взлетная масса 28000 кг (при установке колеса КН-27 с шиной модели 016А и колеса КТ-156Д с шиной модели 2А).''
Suppose that MTOW of Su-57 is ≈35 tons,more or less that's it. We must count on every detail such as that Al-Li Alloy used in Su-57's structure is lighter then Al Alloys used in Su-27( V95 and Dural) .Of course Su-57 has composite and metallic skin. Even FWC-fuselage weapon compartments are strenghtened, they are made from very light Al-Li Alloy. As wrote before, engines are lighter by in total of 300kg ,then vertical stabilizers are much smaller and lighter. What about avionics and other el. equipment. Old mechanical radar N001 Myech is alone heavier then all eight AESA radars of N036 Byelka radar system ,I supose but it is very possible.Then we have that fiber optic wiring and of course digital quadraplex FBW vs old hydro-mechanical control system.Also all systems and subsystems in Su-57 are digital,in Su-27 analogue ( heavier of course). You mentioned fuel system with all components , yes but where is hydraulic control system etc.
All of this can tell us that empty weight of both is in the same level,if, again if Su-57 is maybe even lighter on tarmac then Su-27?Максимальная взлетная масса 28000 кг (при установке колеса КН-27 с шиной модели 016А и колеса КТ-156Д с шиной модели 2А).''
Suppose that MTOW of Su-57 is ≈35 tons,more or less that's it. We must count on every detail such as that Al-Li Alloy used in Su-57's structure is lighter then Al Alloys used in Su-27( V95 and Dural) .Of course Su-57 has composite and metallic skin. Even FWC-fuselage weapon compartments are strenghtened, they are made from very light Al-Li Alloy. As wrote before, engines are lighter by in total of 300kg ,then vertical stabilizers are much smaller and lighter. What about avionics and other el. equipment. Old mechanical radar N001 Myech is alone heavier then all eight AESA radars of N036 Byelka radar system ,I supose but it is very possible.Then we have that fiber optic wiring and of course digital quadraplex FBW vs old hydro-mechanical control system.Also all systems and subsystems in Su-57 are digital,in Su-27 analogue ( heavier of course). You mentioned fuel system with all components , yes but where is hydraulic control system etc.
For me personally,it is not so important those max static /dynamic thrust values as that very inovative plasma ignition system which is used in both the main and AB chamber of AL-41F-1 ( F-1S also).
Citation :
''Плазменная система розжига установлена в основной камере сгорания и в форсажной. По словам Евгения Марчукова, ноу-хау заложено в самой форсунке с плазменной системой: в ней одновременно с подачей керосина организуется дуга плазмы. Также очень серьезное ноу-хау заложено в самих агрегатах зажигания, где нужно за короткое время подать очень высокое напряжение.''
Двухконтурная интеграция // АвиаПорт.Новости
Началось объединение активов для создания авиадвигателя пятого поколения
www.aviaport.ru
Of course,as we wrote ,for the long-term supersonic cruise capability ,max static/dynamic thrust on non-AB mode is more important.
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