Sukhoi Su-57 / T-50 / PAK FA - flight testing and development Part II [2012-current]

[stealthflanker]

Trying to measure length from that drawings. Got 19.4 m length. as for wingspan.. the top aspect image give 14.4 m

does that sounds reasonable ?

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

Trying to measure length from that drawings. Got 19.4 m length. as for wingspan.. the top aspect image give 14.4 m

does that sounds reasonable ?

It does have several reference dimensions to extrapolate from, but your wingspan measurements seem to be a bit higher than the commonly quoted value of 13.95 m.

 

[flanker]

No, something is very wrong with your measurments. I got a length of almost exactly 20m, i havent measured the wingspan but it should be 13.95m. "Old" length is 19.6m.

 

[stealthflanker]

No, something is very wrong with your measurments. I got a length of almost exactly 20m, i havent measured the wingspan but it should be 13.95m. "Old" length is 19.6m.

Then how do you measure ?

---------
Ah Nvm.. I repeated mine. and yes.. This time i got exact 20 m. Slightly more though (20063 mm)

 

[flanker]

I got 20011.7mm using the shorter (2120) as basis and 20051.5mm using the longer (5412) scale. As near as makes no difference.

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

For something a bit more entertaining.

 

[Deino]

Congrats to Sukhoi ... seems as if T50-5R had its second maiden flight today !

 

[Deino]

Still no images of T50-5R ?? ??? :-[

 

[SpudmanWP]

n/a

 

[flanker]

T-50-5R.

 

[Deino]

Thanks ... that really made my day !

 

[flanker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSRX_KBDKM4

Did some digging, found some more stuff re the Moscow Sukhoi bureau visit on 26/11. Tiny pics from UAC;

http://uacrussia.ru/ru/press-center/mediagallery/?photo=7230

RG pics;

http://www.rg.ru/2015/11/26/avia-site-anons.html#/13699_b0c664dd/1/

TASS, most of these are available in higher res in a later link;

http://tass.ru/ekonomika/2474034

Video here; http://vm.ru/news/2015/11/26/sergej-sobyanin-aviastroenie-odna-iz-prioritetnih-otraslej-promishlennosti-moskvi-304308.html

Also confirms my bet that the Su-27 thingy with P-42 nose is a ejection seat testbed, it is called Su-35-L07. Also confirms that T-50-0 is being worked on and it will be continuing testing despite T-50-7. Very surprising as i assumed it got kicked out and was the fuselage next to the famous Su-47 from this year. That fuselage must be then T-50-5's. Obviously -0 is getting -5's wings and atleast one intake fitted, probably other bits and pieces. More;

https://www.mos.ru/pulse/news/3770073

And finally a nice gallery including several T-50-7 pics, available in fairly high res;

https://www.mos.ru/press/media/photo/4718057

And finally video, mostly talking;

https://www.mos.ru/press/media/video/4719057

 

[Deino]

Thanks for sharing !

Image 22 says something of T50 no. 24 !??? is this indeed already aircraft 24 or a working station no. 24 ?

 

[flanker]

Hehe, that is a test stand number 24, not T-50 number 24. It is a test stand for the electrical supply systems. All the pictures are taken in Moscow; they don't build T-50 there, just have a bunch of test stands + the static frames.

 

[bring_it_on]

Latest on the Program -

https://www.scribd.com/doc/292541276/Pakfa-Jan16

 

[shivering]

Many thanks, bring_it_on.

Interesting, at least to me, that according to the article there have been no weapon tests yet and that the sixth prototype
was cannibalized to repair the fifth prototype.

 

[bobbymike]

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14916/Russia_Offers_Cheaper_Deal_On_PAK_FA_Fighter_To_India#.Vn9Qtv90zMo

 

[sferrin]

... So, back in 2010, it became clear that a few poorly designed plane. Required operating overload withstand could not cut the rivets on the air intakes, air-to-air heat exchangers for cracked welds, and the fuel in the tank №3 categorically refused consumed completely. To the first safety car came the assigned resource to 300 hours, in August 2011, it delivered on completion (the rest of the gain made in the factory), and started to design the machine of the 2nd stage (by the way, incidentally removed from the keel 50-1 left there wrench key). At the 2nd stage significantly increased the proportion of composites (virtually the entire lining of the RMB has become), but the weight of the airframe due to increased KCC still excessively increased. Then they decided to replace many nodes B95 duralumin and AK-5 on the aluminum-lithium alloy 1461T with a specific weight of almost 20% less. In October 2012, the final decision on the launch of the 2nd stage of production. It was planned 2 cars - T-50-7 and T-50-8. At that time, at different stages of production are 3 cars 1st stage - 4, 5, 6. But just woke up and decided to make a 50-7 statics. And in February, the 13th decided to make the transition model and assign the T-50-6. To avoid confusion, the T-50-6 of the first phase became known as T-6.1.50, and the second phase of the machine - T 2.6.50.
But among the imported parts to the T-50 were American cellular structure of carbon fiber, widely used in the wing and tail. Our military leadership decided that this is unacceptable and has decided to "importozamestit" and instructed CVTs "Technology" from Obninsk develop domestic cellular materials. By the way, all the other composites for the T-50 is also made in Obninsk. Expectedly, obnintsev provaflili all time. As a result, grief Sagittarius (he is now GK Pak, not Davydenko) in May even suggested removal of plumage from T-50-4 and put on 6-2, modified fairing and drive spindles, but a month ago finally came honeycomb.
Another problematic issue was the alloy 1461. Desperate crackled when mechanical working, then there must be said that the assembly we still conducted on technologies 70s, that is, the assembly units in unit kuvaldometr still very popular. A similar treatment alloy does not bore. As a result, it went reconversion of the parts of the 1461 B-95, and sometimes back again in 1461.Chto, of course, led to the indescribable delight everyone, especially prochnistov.
Thus passed in 2013, 2014 and in February 2015 of the fuselage was docked 6-2 ...

Could you elaborate on the bolded part there? What are they saying? ???

 

[Dragon029]

"Cellular structure of carbon fiber" would equate to materials used to create carbon composites.

 

[sferrin]

"Cellular structure of carbon fiber" would equate to materials used to create carbon composites.

"But among the imported parts to the T-50 were American cellular structure of carbon fiber, widely used in the wing and tail. Our military leadership decided that this is unacceptable "

That could mean almost anything. I'm wondering if Flanker has more specific insight into what's being said there.

 

[Sundog]

"Cellular structure of carbon fiber" would equate to materials used to create carbon composites.

"But among the imported parts to the T-50 were American cellular structure of carbon fiber, widely used in the wing and tail. Our military leadership decided that this is unacceptable "

That could mean almost anything. I'm wondering if Flanker has more specific insight into what's being said there.

d

It seems to me they're referencing the carbon fiber sheets, but that's just my guess.

 

[Trident]

Pretty sure the term in the original language text is the Russian term for honeycomb core.

 

[sferrin]

Pretty sure the term in the original language text is the Russian term for honeycomb core.

So is it that they don't want honeycomb core on their aircraft or that they are importing core from the US. (I'd have thought core would be ITAR controlled.)

 

[Trident]

I read it as meaning that they originally sourced the core from a US company (I seem to recall a reference to a Hexcel material on the T-50, but can't find it right now - that might be it), but decided to replace it with a domestic analogue.

 

[sferrin]

I read it as meaning that they originally sourced the core from a US company (I seem to recall a reference to a Hexcel material on the T-50, but can't find it right now - that might be it), but decided to replace it with a domestic analogue.

Interesting. Hexcel is a local company just down the way. Again, I'm surprised that stuff isn't ITAR controlled.

 

[GTX]

I'm surprised that stuff isn't ITAR controlled.

It would depend on its original application and if it is on the US Munitions list. Even if not ITAR controlled, it would be EAR controlled.

 

[marauder2048]

I read it as meaning that they originally sourced the core from a US company (I seem to recall a reference to a Hexcel material on the T-50, but can't find it right now - that might be it), but decided to replace it with a domestic analogue.

Interesting. Hexcel is a local company just down the way. Again, I'm surprised that stuff isn't ITAR controlled.

Hexcel and Cytec are tier one suppliers for Irkut which along with Sukhoi is part of the UAC family.

 

[flanker]

Could you elaborate on the bolded part there? What are they saying? ???

Originally the prototypes used carbon honeycomb in wings and stabs and that was made and imported from USA. At one point the military decided that to import it was unacceptable and gave the contact to make domestic variant to ONPP "Technology" which already makes all the other composites used in T-50. They blew all the deadlines and hence production of those parts. Finally it appears they have managed to be able to produce them now and hence future prototypes will have the domestic variant.

 

[Sundog]

I agree with those unthread that this interesting in that it isn't ITAR controlled. I wonder if any other countries are using it?

 

[sferrin]

Could you elaborate on the bolded part there? What are they saying? ???

Originally the prototypes used carbon honeycomb in wings and stabs and that was made and imported from USA. At one point the military decided that to import it was unacceptable and gave the contact to make domestic variant to ONPP "Technology" which already makes all the other composites used in T-50. They blew all the deadlines and hence production of those parts. Finally it appears they have managed to be able to produce them now and hence future prototypes will have the domestic variant.

That makes sense. Given today's climate I'd think that particular export would get axed eventually anyway. I'm frankly astonished Russia is still willing to export RD-180s and fly Western astronauts to the ISS. Strange times.

 

[flanker]

That makes sense. Given today's climate I'd think that particular export would get axed eventually anyway. I'm frankly astonished Russia is still willing to export RD-180s and fly Western astronauts to the ISS. Strange times.

Astonished? They get like 80 million USD per seat and 20 million or so per engine, these two things alone rack up to like almost a billion USD this year alone. It is a good business and pays them in solid USD. They would be retarded to drop their toys and stop wanting this cash shower out of short term political considerations.

 

[sferrin]

That makes sense. Given today's climate I'd think that particular export would get axed eventually anyway. I'm frankly astonished Russia is still willing to export RD-180s and fly Western astronauts to the ISS. Strange times.

Astonished? They get like 80 million USD per seat and 20 million or so per engine, these two things alone rack up to like almost a billion USD this year alone. It is a good business and pays them in solid USD. They would be retarded to drop their toys and stop wanting this cash shower out of short term political considerations.

Still it's gotta be annoying (to both sides) to see a US military satellite go into space via RD-180.

 

[flanker]

They didnt have issue with it for 1.5 decades. They are figuring if it isnt sent up by Atlas V it will be sent up by Delta IV. Better then to be sent by Atlas V then as they get money for the engine in that case.

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

Pulled this from Key Publishing, courtesy of flanker.

Allegedly, as of February 2014, the T-50 achieved Mach 1.7 max speed, altitude of 14000 m (46000 ft), and maneuverability surpassing 4th generation fighters. I'd think this is respectable for the program at that timeframe. It also quashes the outlandish speed claims about the T-50, like 500 km/h faster than F-22 and nonsense like that.

 

[kaiserbill]

So, that is the status from 2 years ago, if it is genuine.
I read somewhere else on this that the total test flights is now double that figure in early 2014, so it would be interesting to see how the flight tests/performance have further developed.

 

[Avimimus]

Allegedly, as of February 2014, the T-50 achieved Mach 1.7 max speed, altitude of 14000 m (46000 ft), and maneuverability surpassing 4th generation fighters. I'd think this is respectable for the program at that timeframe. It also quashes the outlandish speed claims about the T-50, like 500 km/h faster than F-22 and nonsense like that.

Ah... how to put this - we don't actually know how fast the F-22 is! Estimates for both aircraft were deliberately kept vague. We just have a few verbal 'ballpark' statements and some of the design specifications.

Someone with a good supersonic wind tunnel could produce an estimate of power/drag ratios based on airframe shapes for both aircraft. Such an estimate could be refined by examining the materials used to estimate planned heat tolerances (although a lot of the detailed information is classified). However, this is beyond what most forum members can do (anyone own a supersonic wind tunnel?? Can I borrow it?).

So, yes - the F-22 is likely faster - but we have no way of telling.

The slide just shows that it has already achieved supersonic performance during flight tests... not what the maximum possible speed is.

 

[sferrin]

Paul Metz (F-22A Chief Test pilot) said it would do over 1600 mph. (Not supercruise obviously.)

 

[bipa]

Hmm... That would be M>2, right...?
I wish I had a supersonic wind tunnel to test the 22 air intakes at that speed.

 

[sferrin]

Hmm... That would be M>2, right...?
I wish I had a supersonic wind tunnel to test the 22 air intakes at that speed.

M2.42. His words, when asked how fast it was by the interviewer was, "It's fast. I mean it's really fast. The top speed is classified but it'll do sixteen hundred miles an hour."

 

[bipa]

I'm no propulsionist here but I'd love to hear one comment about this.
I mean at such speed, the inlet pressure recovery and mass flow performance start to matter a lot.
Supersonic-wise (shockwave structure), the F-22 intake design seems amazingly simple for pushing significant engine thrust well above Mach 2, but I know very bright engineers have worked hard on this and can do wonders...
Not saying it is impossible, but (as you said in your previous post) it should by no means be close to a "cruise" speed condition.