Sukhoi S-70 Okhotnik UAV

[Mr.T]

All materials reflect, absorb, and pass through RF energy to varying degrees. Conductive metals generally reflect more than they absorb or pass through. Fiberglass will generally pass through more than it will reflect or absorb, etc.

The electrical and RF properties of carbon fiber vary with fiber direction, length, "carbonization", angle, and other factors. Controlling these factors can result in a material where reflection dominates, or absorption dominates, or passing through dominates.

In the case of unidirectional "carbon fiber reinforced plastic" the RF properties vary greatly with angle and polarization. The material may be very reflective from one angle, and pass RF completely through at another! This is not a desirable characteristic.

From Jenn, D. C. (2005). "Radar and laser cross section engineering". American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.




Note that the paper your post (indirectly) quoted by copy-pasting from Stack Exchange, Riley 2015, measured from specific static angles : "These samples were then placed in an anechoic chamber and their RCS values were measured at normal incidence" .

What i am trying to say is that folks making these and similar planes put some taught into stealth , while they do not have the funding and R&D capacity of US , but its not like stealth principles were discovered yesterday, decades later material applications for stealth are far better understood, materials improved, some western stealth wrecks also crashed and were recovered along the way etc and i imagine steps taken to reduce RCS as much as they can within reasonable , but like in every field there are diminishing returns , final couple % cost shit load of money

In any case with UCAVs i imagine its the electronics and firmware that is the difficult part not the airframes

 

[Foo Fighter]

Dead wingman.

Chicken wingman?

 

[QuadroFX]

First heavy stealth strike drone in the world, which involved in real warfare operations, BTW.

 

[NovaGA]

Good man said: it was third flying prototype, year of manufacturing was 2024.

Does this good man specify if that is third prototype in S-70 program, including the “071” round nozzle demonstrator or the third S-70 test airframe(so 4th in the program)?

 

[Mr.T]

Its the fourth airframe which ever way you turn it.

 

[Flyaway]

They apparently tried to destroy it on the ground by allocating a hypersonic missile to destroy it but by then the Ukrainians had already taken away most of the vital parts of it so it was rather a waste of an expensive weapon.

A Missile Could Not Erase Russian Drone’s Embarrassing Stealth Secret

Russia tried to destroy the wreckage of its downed S-70 drone with a missile. But crucial evidence was recovered to reveal Russia's stealth technology — or lack of it.

www.forbes.com

 

[Acatomic]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1842608362682266025

View: https://x.com/UKikaski/status/1842608362682266025

Using Okhotnik as AWACS seems very possible (from 2019, Russian MoD):

During the flight, Okhotnik provided sensor augmentation for the Su-57, by expanding the fighter’s radar coverage, enabling the Su-57 to acquire targets beyond the reach of its own radar, and outside enemy missiles and air defenses coverage.

S70 Okhotnik Flies MUM-T with Su-57 - Defense Update:

Sukhoi and the Russian Ministry of Defense have flown the S-70 Okhotnik unmanned aerial vehicle with Su-57 fifth-generation fighter aircraft for the first time. The flight that laster 30 minutes as part of the ongoing test program. On this flight, Okhotnik flew with a full avionics configuration...

defense-update.com

My guess would be UHF AESA like on E-2D Hawkeye? It’s not like they didn’t try it in the past (ZOND-1):

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soviet-russian-uav-and-ucav-projects.267/#post-23338

 

[Ainen]

Awacs with bombs?
Though since su-57 have those L band arrays, and s-70s have way more real estate...

 

[Josh_TN]

I do not see how S-70 would provide any better radar coverage than conventional fighters. I think it was just an operational test of glide bombs, based on the nose cone found in the wreck.

 

[Acatomic]

It could use additional internal fuel tanks instead of weapons. We know Su-57 has that capability, I don’t see why S-70 couldn’t use them.

 

[Josh_TN]

It could use additional internal fuel tanks instead of weapons. We know Su-57 has that capability, I don’t see why S-70 couldn’t use them.

I cannot see why it would even need them. S-70 is practically the size of a medium bomber; it must have a range in the thousands of miles.

 

[Acatomic]

Persistence.

We have an official statement from Russian MoD stating that Okhotnik will be used to expand fighter’s radar coverage. All that’s missing is something like AIM-174.

Izd. 810 maybe?

 

[Mr.T]

Using Okhotnik as AWACS seems very possible (from 2019, Russian MoD):

S70 Okhotnik Flies MUM-T with Su-57 - Defense Update:

Sukhoi and the Russian Ministry of Defense have flown the S-70 Okhotnik unmanned aerial vehicle with Su-57 fifth-generation fighter aircraft for the first time. The flight that laster 30 minutes as part of the ongoing test program. On this flight, Okhotnik flew with a full avionics configuration...

defense-update.com

My guess would be UHF AESA like on E-2D Hawkeye? It’s not like they didn’t try it in the past (ZOND-1):

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soviet-russian-uav-and-ucav-projects.267/#post-23338

Would make much more sense to use simpler cheaper platform with a longer time on station Like Helios bellow

But most of the turboprop UAVs are on ice till VK800 engines become available

Persistence.

We have an official statement from Russian MoD stating that Okhotnik will be used to expand fighter’s radar coverage. All that’s missing is something like AIM-174.

Izd. 810 maybe?

Sort of like Mig31 was is used where multiple fighters with datalinks cover ,large area? Hmm who knows , i have my doubts that is anything else but a strike UCAV

 

[Ainen]

Would make much more sense to use simpler cheaper platform with a longer time on station Like Helios bellow

If a-50 can be shot down by a modified s-200, same will happen even easier with HALE.

Shooting down a stealthy flying wing is going to be way harder; idea makes sense.

 

[Mr.T]

If a-50 can be shot down by a modified s-200, same will happen even easier with HALE.

Shooting down a stealthy flying wing is going to be way harder; idea makes sense.

S-200 can be used at a range 300km . Ukraine war is specific because its Peer-Poor vs Peer , Ukraine is basically without any ISR capabilty ,given a third party ISR , from assets that would in typical war be shot and would move much further from the action while here they can cruise around with no threat to them.

Look at the size of the potential antenna on that vs where ever you think you can fit them on S-70 , in shooting war planes will get shot down , better drones than planes with crew .

 

[Acatomic]

S-200 can be used at a range 300km . Ukraine war is specific because its Peer-Poor vs Peer , Ukraine is basically without any ISR capabilty ,given a third party ISR , from assets that would in typical war be shot and would move much further from the action while here they can cruise around with no threat to them.

Look at the size of the potential antenna on that vs where ever you think you can fit them on S-70 , in shooting war planes will get shot down , better drones than planes with crew .

I was talking about this antenna:

I think it could fit inside the leading edge of S-70 quite nicely. Agree?

 

[Forest Green]

Persistence.

We have an official statement from Russian MoD stating that Okhotnik will be used to expand fighter’s radar coverage. All that’s missing is something like AIM-174.

Izd. 810 maybe?

 

[TomcatViP]

Knowing how much most Russians engineers and young strategists have been playing too much with Il2, it will certainly end-up as a Zwilling K-37 with a cardboard elevon..,

But let's be honest, they have been awfully effective with their glide bombs, hence a gliding K-37?

 

[Mr.T]

I do not see how S-70 would provide any better radar coverage than conventional fighters. I think it was just an operational test of glide bombs, based on the nose cone found in the wreck.

me glide bombs are used by Su-34 daily , but yes S-70 is undergoing combat evaluation tests in Ukraine. , might be able to strike much deeper into AD contested air space than Su-34 using the same bombs.

 

[Ainen]

S-200 can be used at a range 300km . Ukraine war is specific because its Peer-Poor vs Peer , Ukraine is basically without any ISR capabilty ,given a third party ISR , from assets that would in typical war be shot and would move much further from the action while here they can cruise around with no threat to them.

Look at the size of the potential antenna on that vs where ever you think you can fit them on S-70 , in shooting war planes will get shot down , better drones than planes with crew .

Leading edges.
Planes being shot down is ok.
Expensive planes being shot down every few sorties beyond replenishment rate is not ok.

 

[Josh_TN]

I doubt S-70 is especially replenishable. It is a very large aircraft with a fighter sized engine. The U.S. CCAs seem far less ambitious, though obviously with a different goal in mind. Never the less, S-70 does not seem like a remotely expendable resource.

 

[Mr.T]

I doubt S-70 is especially replenishable. It is a very large aircraft with a fighter sized engine. The U.S. CCAs seem far less ambitious, though obviously with a different goal in mind. Never the less, S-70 does not seem like a remotely expendable resource.

Its not ,but compared to a manned aircraft like SU34 , it is likely faster and easyer to manufacture once/if they actually buy them in numbers , stated price target is around 9mio $ so about 1/3 of a Reaper drone, is Reaper an atritable resource (sure seems so as about one per month drops in Yemen to folks with no AD ) , note RuAF pays 25-30mio$ for most Sukoi fighters, su34 for which s-70 might be a replacement or at least complimentary is produced at cca units 20per year - we could speculate where that puts potential production for S70?

My reservations with S-70 being adopted in any numbers is purely conceptual ,being such a large drone seems kind of an overkill .

But can imagine the reasoning behind it , AL-31/41/51 engine family is here to stay and evolve ,while RD93 which would be more UCAV friendly size is getting phased out with the Mig's , leaving only small A-222-25 as alternative . Next is requirement for range , Russians are not big on midair refueling so a drone has to walk on own legs at least matching rest of Sukhois, final parameter is weapons bay size to accommodate larger weapons note Russians do not use anything as small as SDB , closest counterpart that was in the S-70 when it was shot down are UMPB 30 that are much larger than SDB. Unless Russians commit to making smaller munitions, UCAV will be large. Note US invested heavily into smaller munitions due to limitations of internal carry, being able to carry more externally is a side benefit. UMPB30 is a recent development to fit both MLRS and aircraft

Comparison in diameter of SDB and UMPB ,you could almost fit 4 SDB into the same cross section as 1 UMPD, and then there 1.8m vs 2.7m long weapon.

SDB with 14kg of explosives needs to land much more accurate hit than UMPB with 100kg of explosive ,hence the reported failure rates of GB-39 due to electronic warfare in Ukraine , as even small errors induced by EW mean bomb might not have an effect on target

 

[AGS-1787]

It might be big because of the size of Russia. I do think they need a smaller drone that is even cheaper to produce.

 

[Forest Green]

Why Russia Shot Down Its Own S-70 Drone Over Ukraine

Western analysts have a potential intelligence bonanza after Russia potentially shot down a new stealth drone over Ukraine.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[NMaude]

Defense Updates put out a video about the S-70 shoot-down:

Another unwanted incident has been encountered by Russian Aerospace Forces.An S-70 Okhotnik, Russia's first stealthy armed drone, was reportedly shot down by a Russian Su-57 stealth fighter after the drone appeared to malfunction. The incident occurred near the Ukrainian-controlled stronghold of Chasiv Yar in eastern Ukraine on Saturday.

Among the wreckage of the drone, there were components resembling a D-30SN precision glide bomb, suggesting that the Okhotnik was on a bombing mission when it was downed.

Russia has been looking to field the S-70 Okhotnik alongside the Su-57 as a ‘loyal wingman’ to the fighter jet.

In this video, Defense Updates analyzes why Russia killing its own S-70 Okhotnik using Su-57 fighter over Ukraine is a huge setback?

#defenseupdates # S-70Okhotnik #ukrainerussiawar

Chapters:
00:11 INTRODUCTION
01:51 S-70 OKHOTNIK
04:27 SU-57 FELON KNOCKS OUT
06:27 ANALYSIS

 

[Scott Kenny]

Its not ,but compared to a manned aircraft like SU34 , it is likely faster and easyer to manufacture once/if they actually buy them in numbers , stated price target is around 9mio $

I suspect the engine alone is over $9mil.

so about 1/3 of a Reaper drone, is Reaper an atritable resource (sure seems so as about one per month drops in Yemen to folks with no AD ) ,

There's a lot of small-caliber AA and at least MANPADS in Yemen. There's probably stuff all the way up to SA-6s there, too.

My reservations with S-70 being adopted in any numbers is purely conceptual ,being such a large drone seems kind of an overkill .

USN thought it was a good idea, see the old UCLASS project that started off as an ISR and strike drone, then turned into a tanker.

 

[Ainen]

Given the role Russian bombers fulfill (zero interdiction), outside of LW role, s-70 at very least is an ideal su-34 replacement.
The only thing it can't do is to throw oversized payloads

 

[totoro]

Talking in dollar terms is inadequate given that Russian MoD pays in Rubles and that production chain making the planes is paid in Rubles.

Basically, S-70 cost, as any plane, will start out high once it reaches limited serial production. But if and when the production matures and rises in numbers, I would expect final price to be something like 30-50% of Su-34's price. One engine vs two, simpler avionics, no cockpit/life support, possibly limited stealth materials on certain airframes?

Given that there's also the factor of no pilot (pilots for Su-34 and Su-30) total usage cost over time might/should be even lower.

 

[Ainen]

Talking in dollar terms is inadequate given that Russian MoD pays in Rubles and that production chain making the planes is paid in Rubles.

Basically, S-70 cost, as any plane, will start out high once it reaches limited serial production. But if and when the production matures and rises in numbers, I would expect final price to be something like 30-50% of Su-34's price. One engine vs two, simpler avionics, no cockpit/life support, possibly limited stealth materials on certain airframes?

Given that there's also the factor of no pilot (pilots for Su-34 and Su-30) total usage cost over time might/should be even lower.

Avionics aren't simpler, quite the opposite.
Most heavyweight military drones are very disappointing when looked at from price pov; they aren't a way to lower prices, they're a way to get out of human limitations and political risks.

Autonomy is surprisingly costly, and it still produces s-70/rq-170 tech flops.
If you're trying to save money upfront(instead of doing better job) by going unmanned - you'll probably lose both money and efficiency.
Drones are clearly just not there. Not yet.

 

[Archibald]

Avionics aren't simpler, quite the opposite.
Most heavyweight military drones are very disappointing when looked at from price pov; they aren't a way to lower prices, they're a way to get out of human limitations and political risks.

Autonomy is surprisingly costly, and it still produces s-70/rq-170 tech flops.
If you're trying to save money upfront(instead of doing better job) by going unmanned - you'll probably lose both money and efficiency.
Drones are clearly just not there. Not yet.

Hence that "loyal wingman" craze - I mean, drones closely watched from manned aircraft ? (which did not prevented the S-70 to run away from Mordor, and it had to be killed before it fell - well, it actually fell into ukrainian hands, except in a few pieces).

 

[Scott Kenny]

Talking in dollar terms is inadequate given that Russian MoD pays in Rubles and that production chain making the planes is paid in Rubles.

Even if we're paying in Rubles, I don't that the engine will be that cheap. I mean, it's a full sized fighter engine, not some little FJ44-equivalent. An F414 is said to be in the neighborhood of $4mil (depends on where it's made, US is cheaper than India), F110s are closer to $5mil.

 

[TSARb]

Look at the size of the potential antenna on that vs where ever you think you can fit them on S-70 , in shooting war planes will get shot down , better drones than planes with crew .

BTW, the AESA Calculator by stealthflanker could be used to estimate radar capability:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/an-aesa-radar-range-calculator.29367/

 

[Acatomic]

I remember reading somewhere that the price is similar to Su-34 ($36 million). Unfortunately, I cannot find the source.

The closest estimation of value is from this leaked document in which they are insuring the prototype for $18 million (2020 rubel to dollar conversion) for the period of seven months in case the aircraft gets destroyed or lost:

Russiaâs top brass to insure latest stealth drone for over $18 mln

Pursuant to the official document, the Okhotnik stealth drone will be insured against its loss (total or constructive total loss), disappearance or damage as a result of an incident during the insurance period

tass.com

 

[LMFS]

I suspect the engine alone is over $9mil.

According to the last known price of the Su-35 and the current rates, the whole aircraft would be slightly above $24m for the domestic buyer. Okhotnik has only one engine, no A/B and no variable nozzle. Still, prices in dollars are irrelevant for Russian MIC.

 

[quellish]

According to the last known price of the Su-35 and the current rates, the whole aircraft would be slightly above $24m for the domestic buyer. Okhotnik has only one engine, no A/B and no variable nozzle. Still, prices in dollars are irrelevant for Russian MIC.

How much for a buyer in Nevada? Asking for a friend…

 

[paralay]

Price for the Russian Air Force:
Su-35S - 24 million dollars
Su-57 - 34 million dollars
Thus, the cost of S-70 24 (early samples) - 17.5 (serial samples) million dollars

 

[Josh_TN]

I think the higher cost is time not money.

 

[Scott Kenny]

According to the last known price of the Su-35 and the current rates, the whole aircraft would be slightly above $24m for the domestic buyer. Okhotnik has only one engine, no A/B and no variable nozzle. Still, prices in dollars are irrelevant for Russian MIC.

You're missing my point.

The S-70 uses a full size fighter engine. It's highly unlikely that the stated target price is reachable, simply because the engine alone is nearly that expensive to make for the Russian MIC.

 

[LMFS]

You're missing my point.

The S-70 uses a full size fighter engine. It's highly unlikely that the stated target price is reachable, simply because the engine alone is nearly that expensive to make for the Russian MIC.

I don't have data at hand for the cost of the engine, even in the more expensive conventional version for fighters. But if one whole plane with two engines costs 24 million, one engine cannot cost 9. Though I get your point, I'm afraid that it is necessary to have actual data about the cost of the engine, before making such an argument.

 

[paralay]

Data on the cost of engines vary greatly.
Ai-222-25 (Yak-130) - $1,952,249 per piece (2018)
AL-31F for Su-30MKI, $12,917,000 per engine for India. Licensed production in India.
AL-31F for China's J-10, $1,200,000 per piece

Saturn has concluded licensing agreements with UMPO and Salyut on monetary compensation (royalties) to him as a developer, according to which he receives eight percent of the cost of each engine sold – about 250-300 thousand dollars. Its price has increased over time from 3.125 to 3.75 million dollars. (AL-31F)

AL-31F for China - 5 million. $ / piece. source

It can be assumed that:
ed.117C (Su-35S) costs 4.5 million dollars,
ed.117BD (S-70) costs 4 million. $
ed.30 no more than 5 million. $ per piece