Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part II [2008-2009]

[medal64]

Source:www.sukhoi.org
Date: 10.12.2008
Russia and India are ready to soon sign a contract for the joint establishment of a fifth generation fighter


Moscow, Dec 10 Russian-Indian contract for the joint establishment of a fifth generation fighter aircraft, will be signed shortly. This was announced today by the General Director of Sukhoi "Mikhail Pogosyan. He is accompanied by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov during his visit to China, where the 13th meeting of Sino-Russian mixed intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation.The first flight model airplane flight could take place as early as 2009.

The project of joint development of fifth generation fighter aircraft to the equal participation of the parties to implement it. Experts of both countries engaged in establishing a glider, processing and issuance of complex avionics, power plant and testing.Weapons of aircraft will also be joint.

Agreement on joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft was signed on 18 October, 2007 in Moscow under the 7 th meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation intergovernmental agreement.During this period, the Russian-Indian expert group conducted a series of successful meetings during which discussed issues related to the project, distribution of responsibilities between the parties, the timing of works and their financing and technical requirements that make the Indian Air Force aircraft.Specialists Sukhoi Design Bureau and a member of the holding «dry» Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association to them. Yuri Gagarin (KnAAPO), where in December 2007 is assembling the first prototypes of aircraft, visited India and to see that the capacity of Indian design institutes and aircraft factories on the project.Representative delegation of the Indian Ministry of Defense and Aircraft Corporation «Hindustan Aeronautiks Limited», which together with «dry» is executing the project, visited the company «dry» and KnAAPO, which discussed the organizational and operational issues.

This intergovernmental agreement is one of the largest joint programs of cooperation of Moscow and New Delhi in the military sphere.

 

[medal64]

Aviaholding "Sukhoi" is planning to release a series of at least 700 SSJ 100


Since the start of series production of regional civil aircraft Sukhoi Superjet 100, which is expected to begin in 2009, planned to issue no less than 700 airliners.

"Total OAO Sukhoi Design Bureau, the most modest plans, is going to make at least 700 aircraft," - said during an expanded meeting of the Khabarovsk Krai CEO of OAO Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association to them. Gagarin (KnAAPO) " member of the Holding Company Sukhoi, "Alexander Pekarsh.

He noted that mass production of the aircraft will be established at the KnAAPO starting from 2009. Currently, according to A. Pekarsha portfolio "solid" order of 98 aircraft. Реализация программы рассчитана до 2025 года. The program is designed to 2025.

"Under the program aviaholdinga, of all aircraft produced 35% will be sold in North America, 25% - in Europe, 10% - in Latin America, 7% - are designed for markets in Russia and China" - he said.

In the year of aviation plans to produce 70 aircraft.Out on the production capacity is planned by 2012. "By this time, and increase employment of the project, by 2010 the number of employees would reach 5.5 thousand people. Overall, planned to bring to the project for about 7 thousand people" - said A. Pekarsh.

Speaking on the program of creating the fifth-generation aircraft "I-21", which should form the basis for re-flying Air Force fleet of the Russian Federation, he said that currently held aviation design and engineering study of the project. "Today, the aviation begun manufacturing prototypes of aircraft in full compliance with the approved schedule,"added CEO KnAAPO.

"KnAAPO involved in the implementation of priority programs aviaholdinga" dry "for creating and organizing series of regional aircraft assembly SSJ 100, a multifunctional fighter Su-35 and military aviation complex fifth generation.

"KnAAPO them. Yuri Gagarin - the largest Russian aircraft company. The company had produced hundreds of thousands of military and civilian aircraft - from the first plane-razvedchika to modern fighter aircraft family "Su" and light aircraft amphibians. At present, "KnAAPO manufactures fighter Su-27 multifunctional fighter Su-30MKK, Su-30MK2.

Sukhoi Superjet 100. Sukhoi Superjet 100 aircraft equipped with power plant SaM146, in odnoklassnoy layout designed to carry 98 passengers, while dvuklassnaya layout holds 86 seats (78 in economy class and 8 seats in business class).

SSJ 100 successfully performed its first flight duration of 1 hour 5 minutes 19 May, 2008.

Date:18.12.2008
Source:www.aviaport.ru

 

[medal64]

The Board of Directors of OAO RSK MiG Corporation has recommended shareholders meeting to appoint from 1 January to the post of director Mikhail Pogosyan

19 December, 2008
/AVIA.RU/
December 19, AVIA.RU - The Board of Directors of OAO Russian aircraft corporation MiG (RSK MiG), 100% owned by the State, yesterday approved Mikhail Pogosyan for the post of director. At the same time, was approved financial recovery plan for the enterprise, approved by the eve of the interdepartmental commission for the support of strategic enterprises.

This writes the newspaper Kommersant. "

In particular, the decision on the allocation of RSK MiG, debts which amount to 44.6 billion rubles., 15 billion rubles.in the form of investments in equity.Placing additional issue is scheduled for January 2009 - clarifies the issue.

According to the newspaper source in the board of directors of RSK MiG, yesterday recommended the council meeting of shareholders a corporation prematurely terminate the powers of the director Anatoly Belov, and from 1 January to appoint to this post Mikhail Pogosyan.On the change of leadership in the RSK MiG became known in mid-November. The only contender for the post of corporate director Mikhail Pogosyan, who while retain the post of director AHK "dry", as a condition of his appointment, identified the provision of state enterprise debts which amount to 44.6 billion rubles - tells the publication.

According to the source of Kommersant, was yesterday approved a plan for financial recovery business. Before the evening of inter-ministerial commission to support strategic enterprises under the supervision of the Deputy Minister of Finance Anton Siluanova agreed on the allocation of RSK MiG 15 billion rubles."in the form of investments in authorized capital." In the Ministry of Finance confirmed this information: "Before the end of the year should be drafted the Government of Russian Federation to hold additional issue of shares RSK MiG, under which the placement of capital MIGA will make these funds." Additional issue is scheduled for January 2009.

In mid-November, the KLA leadership asked the DNC to provide subsidy of 20 billion rubles - the newspaper said.

Details: http://www.avia.ru/press/13573/

 

[medal64]

Do you think did they finish the assembly work on the prototypes?I think they are probably finished the work and started to prepeare the aircrafts for the first flight.Because It was announced on 5 May 2007 by Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov that the first flight of the new aircraft was expected in late 2008!

 

[flateric]

already at least half dozen first flight dates, starting as early as December, 2006, was announced by various high-ranked guys. so just calm down and wait. fabrication is far from the end, and crisis will say its word undoubtedly soon.

 

[medal64]

Do you mean will we wait about one year more for your guesses flateric?

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread150988/pg1

 

[medal64]

Everybody (Putin,Airforce general Zelin,Pogosyan,Phazotron top manager,Knaapo top manager)says,at PAK-FA program everything is going on the schedule.But we should wait and see who is saying truth or not!I hope we see this aircraft before MAKS 2009!

 

[hs1216]

they would never mislead ;D

 

[flateric]

for the first hand, you'd better ask would MAKS'09 be *at all*

 

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

Hey, I think those pics are fake. Cause the blue one looks like it's a Su-47 with the area between the canards & wings filled in. Hell, you can clearly see the canards!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes, its a well known fake discussed here long ago :

 

[medal64]

I have a wonderful news



Three fifth-generation aircraft for the Air Force RF already undergoing tests

Chkalovsky (Moscow region), December 26 - RIA Novosti. Air Force Russia already testing three fifth-generation aircraft, told journalists glavkom Friday in the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin.

"This year we have three fifth-generation machines. In one way or another they are ready," - he said.

 

[flateric]

More than a year ago OAK chief Fyodorov carefully said that first flight may be in '10, as well as Sergey Ivanov. I hope for the end of '09 but who knows.

 

[flateric]

I have a wonderful news



Three fifth-generation aircraft for the Air Force RF already undergoing tests

Chkalovsky (Moscow region), December 26 - RIA Novosti. Air Force Russia already testing three fifth-generation aircraft, told journalists glavkom Friday in the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin.

"This year we have three fifth-generation machines. In one way or another they are ready," - he said.

For the first hand you'd understand what exactly does he mean under term 'fifth generation'. It would be MiG-35, Su-34 and Su-35 in his opinion.

 

[medal64]

Both su34 and su 35 are 4th generation aircrafts and if you read the news from novosti there is a picture of mig 1.44.I think they are not wrong.

 

[medal64]

And as you know Mig 35 newer can't be a fifth generation aircraft without it's radar!

 

[flateric]

never read Soviet newspapers tonight (c) Do you think idiots are only in the Sun and Global Mail?

 

[medal64]

I didn't read and also I don't know russian but maybe you can help me about this topic if Zelin said wrong!

 

[flateric]

Those dumb idiots as usual have distorted Zelin's words.

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=237026
(Vesti - federal news TV channel)
December, 26, 2008 13:27

'To August, 12, Day of the RUAF, Russia will get flying item of fifth generation aircraft and the same year will put it in the air.' - stated RUAF C-in-C Alexander Zelin on Friday.

'I have an confidence in this event, and I've informed heads of Military Industrial Commission of that with pleasure.' - emphased C-in-C. [...]

As ITAR-TASS have informed, 'work on the project goes according with schedule, all tasks are being completed'. 'Next year we should receive first three vehicles,' - emphased general, stating that 'all them are in various stages of assembly.'

 

[medal64]

Everywhere different news :-\

 

[medal64]

Fifth-generation aircraft will begin operations in August

Fifth-generation aircraft will begin flights next summer.That journalists said glavkom Air Force Russia, Colonel General Alexander Zelin.

"This year I visited the Komsomolsk-on-Amur, looked as work goes, I think that will soon report to the leadership of the military-industrial complex of Russia's willingness to test the aircraft", - he said, expressing hope that the August 12, 2009 aircraft will be raised in the air.

According to A. Zelina, no problems and causes of failure of the plan does not. "I do not see any financial or managerial or production causes failure of the plan", - stressed glavkom.

The main requirements that apply to fifth-generation combat aircraft - a high efficiency in the defeat of air, land, surface and underwater targets; existence of a circular information system, development of cruise flight at supersonic speeds, reducing the visibility of the aircraft in radar and infrared ranges; ability to carry out the shooting vserakursny objectives in the Middle air battle, as well as multi-missile firing in the conduct of the battle at long range, automation and information management airborne jamming systems.

In addition, the new aircraft should have increased autonomy from the military installation in the aircraft cabin single indicator tactical situation with the possibility of mixing information (ie, the simultaneous withdrawal and mutual imposition of a uniform scale "pictures" of various sensors). The machine must also be equipped with a system telekodovogo sharing information with outside sources and automated control systems at the tactical decision tasks.

source:www.aviaport.ru
date:26.12.2008

 

[flateric]

it WILL NOT begin flights next August, once more. It will be READY IN AUGUST according to Zelin's words. He said it WILL BEGIN flights in 2009. It effectively means any date between August, 12 and December, 31

Examples:
F-35A AA-1. Roll-out July 2006, maiden flight - December, 2006
X-47B UCAS-D. Rolled out last week. Official roll-out: summer 2010, first flight: autumn 2010

 

[sferrin]

I have a wonderful news



Three fifth-generation aircraft for the Air Force RF already undergoing tests

Chkalovsky (Moscow region), December 26 - RIA Novosti. Air Force Russia already testing three fifth-generation aircraft, told journalists glavkom Friday in the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin.

"This year we have three fifth-generation machines. In one way or another they are ready," - he said.

Just an FYI, the Russians consider the Su-34 and Su-35BM 5th generation aircraft (even if nobody else does). Don't know what #3 would be.

 

[sferrin]

And as you know Mig 35 newer can't be a fifth generation aircraft without it's radar!

Or with it.

 

[medal64]

And the day's last news


HAL, Russia's UAC ink pact on 5th generation fighter aircraft

BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) inked a pact to jointly develop and produce a fifth generation fighter aircraft, a top HAL official said on Tuesday.

"We (HAL and UAC) are moving forward as per schedule. We (have) just done the general contract yesterday. I went to Delhi and signed the general contract," HAL Chairman Ashok K Baweja said.

HAL officials noted that under a preliminary inter-governmental agreement signed in October last year, the advanced multi-role fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, part of UAC, along with the Bangalore-headquartered defence PSU.

According to reports, Russia and India would simultaneously develop two versions of the aircraft -- a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India and a single seat version for Russian Air Force.

UAC had begun building a prototype of the jet fighter which would feature high manoeuvrability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets, reports said.

Asked about the proposed investment in the venture, Baweja said it was very difficult to say at this stage and added: "It will be quite a lot".

He told reporters on the sidelines of the celebrations of HAL Day that the Navratna company has put on the backburner its MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul of civil aircraft) venture plans at HAL airport following a slowdown in the world civil aviation market.

Date:23.12.2008
Source:www.timesofindia.com

 

[sferrin]

Hopefully it'll go better than their aircraft carrier endeavor.

 

[medal64]

Do you think will three of the aircraft be the same looking?

 

[Deino]

Just to that 3 fifth generation types there's an interesting statement from “RSM55” at the Key-forum ... I don't know him by name (maybe he's already a member here !) but he seems to have a fairly good knowledge in the Russian scene ...

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1340433&postcount=237

My final words in this thread

Dear all,
since the beginning of this Saga, I have tried to post only reliable, unbiased and truthful information about the programme of the "5th gen. fighter", PAK FA, T-50, whatever it might be called and is called by the "community" and the gullible media and "experts". Obviously, because of the aforementioned ethical prerequisites, I haven't posted that much.
For the time being, I am relatively proud to say that none of my "supputations", suppositions and information that I have provided has proven untrue. Indeed, it seems that Zelin himself confirms (for example) the all-aspect sensor fusion I have talked about more than a year ago.
I have also written here that the "PAK FA" or whatever will be "more like the YF-23 than the F-22". I have also stated that those who expect some kind of flying sauski or Firefox will be disappointed, as the RuAF requirements for the PAK FA differ from USAF requirements for the Raptor. I have also pointed out that the main breakthrough, and the main challenge, of the PAK FA programme will not be new aerodynamics, amazing stealth or incredible overall characteristics, but simply total sensor fusion and the implementation of brand new weapon systems and a very potent sensor/RWR/ECM suite.

Why do I point that out again?
Because this post is going to be my last post on this thread until the subject matter will publicly fly.
Why that?
I am sick and tired of reading speculations and trying to temperate them.
I am sick and tired of seeing artists renderings, some good, some less, being naively discussed as if the honorable person who devised them on his or her PC between 2am and a bottle of Moskovskaya (or Château Rotschild 1956 for that matter, I don't care) had the Sukhoi blueprints next to the keyboard.
And on top of it, I am very, very tired of all the nationalist, pro-Russian, anti-Russian, pseudo-pro-anti-Russian redneck whatever ramblings that seem to enthuse the hon. members of this board much more than thinking about the next word they will use in order to describe their honorable feelings.

My last input:
Russian mass-media are not autocracy-driven, or democratic, or free, or unfree - they are just (for defense matter) mostly lame and incompetent.
Zelin has talked about 3 "5th gen. programmes".
He meant: PAK FA, PAK DA, future land-attack UCAV. No it's not the Skat.
He did not mention any "august 2009" deadline. The journalists made that up.

The said programme is doing well and progressing fast.
The airframes are all but ready.
Integration will be a big challenge, but I'm confident.
And again, "the first flight will not be the first"

Now.
If I wouldn't be so upset about what I read and if I would claim some recognition and respect, I would certainly humbly ask the moderators to close the thread till next summer at least because it's getting nowhere.
But as I'm certainly not - please go on and speculate further and further - the sky's the limit.
Till you see the real thing you all dream about, sometime next year, and then start an infinite number of threads like "PAK FA (it will be Su-.. ... by the time) vs F-22", "PAK FA is a hoax" or "PAK FA is not really stealthy (for flamers)".

All in all, God bless you all, let 2009 be better than the pundits say it will be and clear skies ahead.

Deino

 

[flateric]

couldn't be said better

 

[rousseau]

I bet that version of PAKFA has been completed already, and all things need India to do just is spend money on two seat version building. And we will see the two seat version must be the version developed from single seat version.

 

[medal64]

Check the number built please!I don't believe this but even if the two seater version created,it's all parts must be supplied from Russia.And India will work on composite materials and the avionics by 2015 or if when the aircarft creates!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi/HAL_FGFA

 

[Deino]

Does anyone know how serious is or what to think about this mini-MiG-MFI ... reportedly from MiG posted by someone at Paralay's frorm ?!! ???

See also http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86518&page=13 post 377 + 383

Deino ???

 

[medal64]

Mig has a project of lightweight 5th generation aircraft.It's also demonstrated to the Indian officials but they didn't accept and they choosed the Sukhoi's "2 seater pak-fa version" option because they decided that its better for the needs of IAF.But united aircraft corporation top maneger a few times said that,Mig would create a lightweight 5th generation aircraft.By the help of they learned from the PAK-FA.But it may take more years.Because in my opinion mig corporation needs a modernisation for it's equipments but they can maybe solve this problem because the Russian goverment choosed the mig in the strategic corporations and the goverment will support them.And as you know Pogosyan will possibly be the mig corporation's top manager.And the last if mig wins the MRCA competition from the india they can create easly a lightweight 5th generation aircraft

 

[hs1216]

How many different types of fighter aircraft is India planning to have in their inventory. mirage 2000, LCA, MCA, SU-27's, MiG-29, MiG-29K, Pak-fa, and who ever wins the MRCA compit ion. Doesn't this seem a bit excessive having 5 to 6 different combat aircraft designed in different countries, using different equipment, weapons, and not to mention engines.

 

[medal64]

They are working to create their own fighter aircraft but there are some problems at LCA program and they are planning to create MCA in the future.For this reason they needed help from the foreign countries.But at this stage the important thing is technology transfer.And they traditionally prefer Russians because of they are more open for sharing their technologies.I think they will learn too much from the 2 seater PAK-FA and in the future we will see india's own fighter aircrafts.But this 5-6 type of aircrafts are a transition term for indian aircraft industry and in the future they will show the world rather advanced aircrafts.

 

[medal64]

I think and I hope the first flight of the PAK-FA will be in may or july.Because su 27 conducted its first flight in may,su 15 again in may,su 25 in february,su 24 in july and su 17/20/22 did first flight in july.But in my opinion the big probabilty is it will make it's first flight in may if everything goes on the way because Mr. pogosyan have said that we will conduct the first flight of the PAK-FA as early as 2009.

 

[medal64]

And I don't think they will adopt new technologies which they are developing for the fifth generation aircraft to this prototype.In my opinion this aircarft at first stage will use su 35BM technologies with a new airframe.But they will test the aerodynamic structure of the aircarft and the Radar cross section.

 

[utahbob]

Here is a different presepective on the PAK-FA:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=15983&R=15FFD11E5E

Just Like US(AF)?
Russia's fifth generation fighter.
by Reuben F. Johnson
01/09/2009 12:00:00 AM http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=15983&R=15FFD11E5E


Kiev
For more than a decade the world has been waiting for Russia's aerospace industry to produce a fifth-generation fighter aircraft -- a replacement for the more than 25-year-old designs of the Mikoyan MiG-29 and Sukhoi Su-27/Su-30 models and an analogue to the Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Organised as a cooperative program involving almost the entirety of the Russian military aircraft industry, the project is known as the PAK-FA (Perspektivnnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks - Frontovoi Aviatsyi, or Future Air System for Tactical Air Forces).

The design bureau designation for the prototype is T-50, with this airplane in the beginning stages of assembly at the Komsommolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KNAAPO) plant in the Russian Far East region of Kharabovsk. "Metal is being cut at the KNAAPO plant" and the plan is now for the aircraft to fly in 2009 -- or 2010 at the latest -- said a source knowledgeable of the program.

The emergence of a Russian fifth-generation fighter airplane should be music to the ears of the U.S. Air Force (USAF), which has long sought to use the specter of such a program to justify increased procurement of the F-22A and funding for the F-35. But, no one on the Air Staff in the Pentagon should be putting champagne on ice just yet. Ironically, the PAK-FA seems to be taking the same labourious route from first flight to actual deployment that started with the selection of the YF-22 prototype in the early 1990s.

"During the flight evaluations of the YF-22 and the [Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas] YF-23 the Lockheed design was picked as the 'winner,' but this was despite the fact that the prototype airplane did not demonstrate stealth, did not have a working radar or avionics suite for testing, and did not supercruise. So, all that was really evaluated and 'won' the fly-off was an aerodynamic paint job," said US aviation and stealth technology analyst Jim Stevenson. Stevenson has authored numerous articles on the F-22A and has written extensive histories of both the F-18 and ill-fated A-12 program.

"The USAF essentially picked a winner and then said 'now that you have officially won go and develop the airplane,' which took another 14 and half years between this fly-off of virtually empty prototypes and the official acceptance of the F-22A into service at the end of 2005," said Stevenson.

The PAK-FA seems destined to meet a similar fate. The prototype will fly sometime within the next 12 to 18 months, but -- like the F-22A -- it seems that these demonstration flights will meet almost none of the Russian Air Force's (VVS) operational requirements.

Russian industry representatives close to the program tell THE WEEKLY STANDARD that "the radar to be flown in the aircraft from NIIP design bureau will be a variant of the same Irbis-E passive electronically scanning array (PESA) radar technology that is in the Sukhoi Su-35 Super Flanker and not the next-generation active array (AESA) that program requirements call for. The engine will be the Saturn/Lyulka 117S modernised derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F-Series 3 engine and not the next-generation AL-41F1 design. There will also be few new-age on-board systems in the avionics suite."

As early as mid-2007, Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosian and other senior Russian industry officials were downplaying expectations when they hinted that these on-board systems might not be ready when the first prototype aircraft flies and would only come on line later. When asked about the engine development at the Le Bourget air show outside of Paris in June 2007, Pogosian responded "that since the serial production covers a period of 30 years and 30 more years for operation, the engine and other systems will change considerably in the course of serial production. That is normal."

Click on link to read rest of article.......

 

[medal64]

I think the weeklystandart website is not a reliable source.Im already the first time saw this website.The sources are Russian or anti Russian I couldn't understand.Look at this words!


A representative from one of the PAK-FA's major partners told THE WEEKLY STANDARD that "the situation is very simple. Right now the only real fifth-generation fighter airplane in service in the world is the F-22A. This state of affairs is not likely to change anytime soon."