Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part II [2008-2009]

[saintkatanalegacy]

if the engines are mounted low, could it be that the exhaust nozzles are offset vertically from the engine? :-\

 

[Matej]

I removed the "why was F-22 production line closed" posts to much appropriate topic:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6620.120.html

 

[frank]

Kinda like what I said a few posts back, to hide the actual shape.

I personaly dont think the round holes represent intakes. My first thought wasnt that it was intakes, but to show "here lies the engines". Nothing more than that.

 

[avatar]

its an aft impression.

 

[flanker]

its an aft impression.

Then it has one big *** spine. Which i doubt.

 

[medal64]

Maks 2009 was a frustration for about the PAK-FA! Just there was NIIP AESA. Maybe some components needs time to finish but in my opinion they could display at least some mock ups!

 

[flateric]

to all - please post only if you have new information or facts
it becomes endless blah-blah-blah looking like nine-part saga at key publishing forum
unrelevant posts will be deleted

 

[medal64]

Mikhail Pogosyan: Russian Aviation Industry Able to Overcome Lag in Development of Composite Materials

The Russian aviation industry is able to overcome the lag in the development of composite materials (KM), the vice president of the Unified Aircraft Building Corporation (OAK) and general director of the Sukhoy and RSK MiG companies, Mikhail Pogosyan, has told ARMS-TASS.


According to him, development of the Sukhoy family of airplanes and of the Russian aviation industry on a whole "is connected with the broad application of KM in the construction of flight vehicles." The new commercial Russian liners of the An-148, Superjet-100 and Tu-204 type already include up to 10 - 15 percent of KM , and the fifth generation fighter - up to 30 percent. The forecast for the future shows that up to 50 percent of a civil airplane's airframe will consist of composites, Pogosyan noted.


According to him, Sukhoy, in particular, is participating in projects for the development of KM, being realized jointly with ROSNANO ((The Russian Nanotechnologies Corporation)) and the Moscow Lomonosov State University

Source: 25.08.09, Avia.RU

 

[Matej]

The Russian aviation industry is able to overcome the lag in the development of composite materials...

Yes and this is why almost all composite materials for the PAK FA and FGFA are being developed and manufactured by HAL in India. :

 

[medal64]

The first time I heard this info is there a source about it matej?

 

[Matej]

Its part of the Russia-India agreement on the FGFA and it was said directly by the HAL chairman A. K. Baweja in many occasions. For example here:

http://www.georgians.in/article_detail.asp?aid=450

HAL will participate mainly on the composite materials, cockpit, avionics and engine development.

 

[flateric]

official source said of persentage of composites being used in PAK FA airframe - 30%

 

[medal64]

I would like ask that, for about two years PAK-FA's assembly started at knaapo and design of the aircraft should be finished at least in 2008.And today what is the sukhoi designers working for?Indian version of the PAK-FA or a lightweight 5th gen.aircraft with mikoyan designers or an UCAV?Do you have an idea about it?Mikoyan and Sukhoi designers working for?

 

[Matej]

X-35A first flight happened in 2000, so what are the lockheeds designers working for? That's my answer for a very naive question. Do you think that when you freeze the general shape and start to build a prototype (that is far away from the production machine) everything is done?

 

[medal64]

X-35A first flight happened in 2000, so what are the lockheeds designers working for? That's my answer for a very naive question. Do you think that when you freeze the general shape and start to build a prototype (that is far away from the production machine) everything is done?

Sure no but when an aircraft designed and started to assembly then in my opinion you should wait untill it makes the first flight to see the results.After that you can optimise the design.Am I wrong?

 

[Matej]

Yes and no. You can work on the serial production version even before the first flight of the prototype. Because it is already paper, or better to say CAD plane, you can apply additional changes without significant problems. If they wait for the first flight and only after that will start additional work, it will make another catastrophic delays. My point is, that they had completely new design so why to waste the time and money on designing the another new plane, when they can concentrate all the efforts to the additional improvements of the PAK FA? People, that work on the PAK FA, still work on a PAK FA. The people, that work on the Superjet 100, still work on it and the people with the task to design the new concepts still design the new concepts as they did in the past and as they will do in the future. The chance of us to see this futuristic designs is equal to zero so this is why I found your question senseless. You should keep asking, there is nothing bad on it, just try to think a bit before ask by yourself.

 

[medal64]

First of all Im not working in the aircraft industry and I would like to learn something else.The reason of why I asked this question is about, when I talked with the chief desiger of the trainer aircraft Hurkus (Turkey) he said that we finished the design of the aircraft and the assembly will start in a near time.Than he said its unknown what the most of the designers will do then!So my question was about that.Thanks...

 

[flanker]

30 %. Hmmm. How much does F-22 have?

 

[Matej]

First of all Im not working in the aircraft industry

Nor do I.

The reason of why I asked this question is about, when I talked with the chief desiger of the trainer aircraft Hurkus (Turkey) he said that we finished the design of the aircraft and the assembly will start in a near time.Than he said its unknown what the most of the designers will do then!So my question was about that.Thanks...

You simply cant compare such a compex thing like the 5th generation fighter with a trainer aircraft. And also I dont know much about the Hurkus, but I am sure that the firm that developed it doesnt have the number of projects and possibilities like Sukhoi (now MiG and Sukhoi).

30 %. Hmmm. How much does F-22 have?

The Boeing 787 and the Airbus A350XWB will make the most revolutionary use of composites, having 50 percent composite structure by weight and 90 percent by volume. By comparison, the Boeing 777, which entered service just over 10 years ago, contains only 10 percent composite structure by weight. The U.S. Army’s new F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter), expected to enter service in 2010, will have about 40 percent composite structure by weight, using titanium-graphite (TiGr) laminates. The F-22 Raptor, which entered service in 2003, has approximately 25 percent composite structure by weight.

http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2009/0906_WaterjetCutting.html

 

[piko1]

the second prototype is preforming ground tests and it is in Moscow
so it seams that they have all ready two planes ???

crossing fingers to see the plane soon

medal64 read the History of the aviation get to MiG-21 as he is the finest example of how designers work to refine one project in years
and decades even that is the most easy way to answer you question

 

[flateric]

the second prototype is preforming ground tests and it is in Moscow

second prototype performing STATIC TESTS and it's in Zhukovsky, at TsAGI

 

[piko1]

the second prototype is preforming ground tests and it is in Moscow

second prototype performing STATIC TESTS and it's in Zhukovsky, at TsAGI

ВВС РФ приступили к испытаниям второго образца истребителя пятого поколения, сообщает РИА Новости со ссылкой на главкома Военно-воздушных сил РФ Александра Зелина.
"Вторая машина, которая проходит наземные испытания, уже находится здесь, в Москве", - сказал Зелин.
В то же время, главком признал существование проблем с созданием двигателя для истребителя пятого поколения. Пока самолет будет летать с двигателем «Сатурна», уточнил он.

so ok he is in ЦАГИ but i we read that so it is possible that first prototype is for static test's but the second will be used for flight test's or they have all ready made the 3rd prototype ?
http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/fgfa-conundrum-explained.html something intresting

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

Speaking on closer plans, the senior officer said Russia’s fifth-generation fighter jet will see its maiden flight later this year, “in November, or probably in December.” So far three prototypes of the PAK FA have been built for land tests, and a machine for aerial tests is on its way. PAK FA is a multipurpose super maneuverable stealth aircraft designed by Sukhoi.

http://www.russiatoday.com/Sci_Tech/2009-08-13/deter-space-strikes-russia.html

 

[flateric]

[or they have all ready made the 3rd prototype ?

they did

 

[tacitblue]

crossing fingers to see the plane soon

I'm betting we won't see it until after it makes its first hop.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Hi everyone

My 1st post on this forum (I'm an aerospace enthusiast since childhood but not working in the branche and have only limited knowledge about aerodynamics, electronics, weapons-systems, etc... so I'll be silent for the most of the time ;D )

I just read this on flightglobal in an article about PAK-FA's AESA-radar:


"...The Russian aircraft will also have an integrated on-board sensor and flight control system which will include several radar antennas to provide a 360° coverage...."

Is this statement correct?
When it is true, it would seem that the new Russian fighter will have the same capability as the United States' F-35A/B/C with it's 360° DAS - coverage/engagement capability? Or does it not necessarily mean that if PAK-FA has 360° coverage it also has 360° engagement-capability? Or is the F-35's system much more complex/developped then this Russian system?


Reason I ask is because I read several posts on this forum from senior/respectabel members who say the F-35 will be far superior (weither or not it will also be aerodynamically agile and powerfull, I don't want to enter that debate) because of it's sensor fusion and the 360°-coverage and -engagement capability in particular...

Wouldn't the PAK-FA, when it has a similar coverage/engagement-capability, and probably being in the F-22-class of pure aerodynamic performance (speed, manoeuverability, T/W-ratio, etc...), be a superior aircraft compared to the F-35? Wouldn't it therefore become a serious threat to Western Air Forces - which will be for the majority be equipped with F-35's - once it enters service with the Russians and/or export (and possible hostile) countries?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/08/28/331563/picture-russia-unveils-aesa-radar-for-pak-fa-fighter.html

(hope my questions aren't too off-topic or inappropriate or so!)

Regards from Belgium!
Dreamfighter

 

[flanker]

Hi everyone

My 1st post on this forum (I'm an aerospace enthusiast since childhood but not working in the branche and have only limited knowledge about aerodynamics, electronics, weapons-systems, etc... so I'll be silent for the most of the time ;D )

Hi, and welcome.

Or is the F-35's system much more complex/developped then this Russian system?

Who knows? We even haven't seen real pictures of the thing, yet alone details on the electronic suite. I am, like you, not an expert about electronics and aerodynamics, but russian seems to have always been behind USA in terms of electronics. 90's didnt exactly help...Maybe they have somewhat made the gap smaller. Well, i hope. That beeing said, i watched a vid about MiG-35's electronics, and i was impressed.

Reason I ask is because I read several posts on this forum from senior/respectabel members who say the F-35 will be far superior (weither or not it will also be aerodynamically agile and powerfull, I don't want to enter that debate) because of it's sensor fusion and the 360°-coverage and -engagement capability in particular...

Again, we don't know how PAK-FA's electronic suite will work/look. So honnestly, take those assumptions for what they are, assumptions.

Wouldn't the PAK-FA, when it has a similar coverage/engagement-capability, and probably being in the F-22-class of pure aerodynamic performance (speed, manoeuverability, T/W-ratio, etc...), be a superior aircraft compared to the F-35?

Well, is Su-27 superior to F-16 for example. Or MiG-29 to F-15? Maybe in some ways, but not in others.

Wouldn't it therefore become a serious threat to Western Air Forces - which will be for the majority be equipped with F-35's - once it enters service with the Russians and/or export (and possible hostile) countries?

It is the newest Russian aircraft, and maybe it will be the second 5 gen fighter to be in service. So, yes, it will be a serious threat.

 

[donnage99]

I just read this on flightglobal in an article about PAK-FA's AESA-radar:
"...The Russian aircraft will also have an integrated on-board sensor and flight control system which will include several radar antennas to provide a 360° coverage...."

Is this statement correct?

What you need to know is that there are different possible meanings to that statement. It might mean 360° coverage provided by radar warning receiver (RWR), infrared/optical sensors, or plain old radars, or any combination of those listed. The f-22 has 360° coverage provided by RWR, but the f-35 has both the 360° coverage RWR (less antennas than the f-22) but also coupled with the infrared/optical sensor DAS. Also to note that there are numerous elements that factor into your question. Having 360° coverage does NOT mean the same thing every time. You can have 360° coverage, but does it mean it allows you to cue onto your opponent to provide a lock for your missile? how many opponents can it handle at the same time? Can it track? How integrated the system work into other systems? Do the system that provide a low profile? Or are they marketing their presence to enemy? All of these directly effect how lethal/survivable the aircraft is. I think that PAK-FA will definitely have some kind of 360° coverage, 'cause I think that is one of the things (beside AESA)that define 5th generation fighter's avionics. However, how effective they are gonna be, and what particular capabilities they gonna hold are unknown until more details are given.

 

[medal64]

12:43 28/08/2009
Viktor Litovkin, «NSS», specifically for RIA Novosti.

Unnoticed raisins MAKS

He left in the history of MAKS-2009. Colleagues have told practically everything, the truth, regardless of media attention were some very important pieces, without which the development of combat aircraft, and air defense, and they also attended the salon, it seems impossible.

In the pavilion of the United Aircraft Corporation, between companies «MIG» and Dry »on the stand of the Research Institute of Instrument Design Tikhomirova first two days of the saloon stood closed cover exhibit.It was officially opened on the third day. Only after permission to do so, to train more months, signed the president of Russia. Under the cover of hiding - AFAR, active phased array radar fifth-generation fighter, or, as it is called, the PAK FA, promising aviation complex tactical aviation. Sam plane just created its first flight scheduled for later this year or early next. Even the appearance of the new fighter is not yet known to the general public, but here at the salon already demonstrated its «eyes and ears».

According to experts, on-board radar (radar) with AFAR - is the foundation of «intelligence» modern fighter. It provides him with the implementation of the full range of numerous and diverse challenges facing his pilot, and weapons control system. All this is intended to help the pilot to solve many problems of air combat - from the conquest of the air and fight the enemy missiles before hitting small ground and surface targets.This dramatically increases the level of automation weapons control system (BBG).What is particularly important for multifunctional combat aircraft. Moreover, single, what the designers intended, and should become a PAK FA.

In the prospective fighters - the author tells CEO NIIP Yuriy White - put not just the locator in the usual sense, and an integrated radio-electronic system, which includes radars at several wavelengths, as well as the identification system, electronic warfare (electronic warfare - V.L .) and other necessary equipment.And all this is linked to a single ideology, a single concept, will give, as it is now fashionable to formulate, «synergistic effect of combat».

But apart «synergies», a APAA has another practical advantage.It allows you to see the enemy more, and before it can make it.And the pilots have a saying «first saw - the first shot, and therefore won».

The main components to it - modules, of which, as a hundred in a hive, is a surface radar, a thousand-odd original transceivers - are mass-produced at Moscow company «Istok». And, in automated production lines, where human involvement is practically reduced to zero.This technology, which is used in creating these modules, Russia had never been. Machines for it were purchased abroad, including in Japan. And now the radar for the fifth-generation fighter, too, can produce line method.For this purpose, Ryazan Instrument Plant - partner name Tikhomirov NIIP constructed a special box with the new equipment.

According to Yury Bely, they will be able to equip their locators to 50 aircraft per year. And, moreover, the use of AFAR to improve safety for road, rail and other public transport. Active phased array antenna, if it is applied in this system can help automation machinery, locomotives or bus to prevent collision with other participants in the movement.She has many other virtues, which require special discussion, and while on the other «undetected» updates salon.Including the Arms Corporation «Tactical Missiles» (KTRB).

These are missile «air-to-air», «air-to-surface» and corrected air bombs. Arms KTRV supplied almost one hundred percent of combat aviation in our country and another 20 countries around the world, in which the fly, protecting the sovereignty and independence of these states, Russia's fighter aircraft, attack aircraft and bombers. This X-35UE, X-59 MK2, X-59M2E, KAB-500S-E, KAB-1500LG-S, RMA-SD and RVV-MD. Some of such weapons in August last year during the operation in South Ossetia by force the Georgian aggressor to peace, our pilots brought down the entire system of governance Saakashvili's army, destroyed the military airfields of Tbilisi, destroyed his aircraft.

But since then, designers KTRV able to dramatically increase the combat effectiveness of its weapons. For example, in the Kh-35UE twice reduced the size of the engine, due to what has been the same amount to increase the fuel tank, and thus the range of missiles.In addition, improved a number of other tactical and technical characteristics: increased speed to the target, increased the effectiveness of the warhead, a technical resource products and performance of its reliability.Including electronic control systems.And so almost the entire range listed in the index of industrial samples of weapons.The Director-General KTRV Boris Obnosov told me that he displayed on the cabin missiles and bombs, as well as those that show the public is not the time - the basis for the establishment of missile-bomb armament for the fifth-generation fighter PAK-FA.It will be ready for him at exactly the moment when the plane will come to the state tests. Не раньше и не позже. Not before and not later. Schedule develop weapons agreed with its designers, and it is strictly enforced.

«No weapons most modern fighter aircraft - only aerialist, - said Boris Obnosov - and arms - is a fighter. And we understand this very well ».

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

for 360 degree coverage, it might be practical to use Su-30 style rearward radar and use sensor fusion. imho, it's important to know the direction and vector of the missile that's chasing you. as for avionics and electronics; pulse jammers, esm, maws, irst, laser detectors and aesa radar would be a practical suite for a 5th generation plane. RF memory emitter would also be a nice addition as it might be a good alternative ecm against home on jam missiles.

 

[medal64]

[or they have all ready made the 3rd prototype ?

they did

There are three prototypes created for static tests, one prototype prepearig for the flight tests. Is there any other info about productions resumption or any other birds?

 

[Matej]

There should be three prototypes at all. First for the flight tests, second for the static tests and the third to enhance the flight envelope and to serve as the backup for the first one.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

the 4th one is on its way and is scheduled to fly this november or december. hopefully, it's open to the public, else the majority will be upset

 

[Deino]

the 4th one is on its way and is scheduled to fly this november or december. hopefully, it's open to the public, else the majority will be upset

Ohhh come on ! Why on earth should the 4. prototype be on its way and fly by November or December, when we are all waiting for the first one to lift off, … and this since months ! ???

Sorry, but I think some of You guys are even more impatient to see the T-50 fly than I to see the Chinese XXJ. Calm down and sit and wait … and leave this fan-boy-blurb to other forums.

Deino

 

[SOC]

Source: 11.08.09, Avia.RU
Zelin reported that right now assembly of the first flying example is being concluded. Three examples already have been created in accordance with the state defense order for tests, he added.

Three examples for testing does not imply three full-scale complete airframes. It could be that there is an RCS model, an antenna/electronics test rig, etc. But yes, it would appear that the fourth T-50 "example" will be the first flying, full-scale prototype. The other three are likely static test, RCS test, and perhaps destructive test (i.e. test it under different load conditions until it breaks).

 

[flateric]

as we use to say, "tree-four, around this [figure]"

Zelin's citation
"Pogosyan and Fyodorov have asked to not disclose the time when fifth gen aircraft will rise in the air, but earlier I've reported to CINC already that it will fly in November or December, when it will be colder". (riddle me a riddle)

 

[Firefly 2]

as we use to say, "tree-four, around this [figure]"

Zelin's citation
"Pogosyan and Fyodorov have asked to not disclose the time when fifth gen aircraft will rise in the air, but earlier I've reported to CINC already that it will fly in November or December, when it will be colder". (riddle me a riddle)

Conjecture: waiting for optimal lift environment? ( although I cannot really imagine that being a factor)

 

[Dreamfighter]

Well, is Su-27 superior to F-16 for example. Or MiG-29 to F-15? Maybe in some ways, but not in others.

I think one could (a bit simplistically perhaps) say:
F-15 <-> Su-27
F-16 & F/A-18 <-> MiG-29
F-22 <-> Pak-Fa (*)
F-35 <-> "Pak-Fa-light" ? (**)

(*)
I suppose it is now widely considered as having at least similar dimensions as the F-22, and to have 2 engines, TVC, and supercruise-performance...

Assuming PAK-FA turns out during testing/evaluation to be an excellent plane ( indeed we'll have to wait and see, but I think or fear ( ) it will show up - at least in terms of raw aircraft flight performance - as a great plane... unless there's some serious and unsolvable design flaw, which I doubt);

Would the Russians - unlike the US which doesn't export the F-22 - be more likely to export their newest top-technology fighter? Their Su-27 (Su-30MKI f.e.) and Mig-29 (MiG-29SMT/MiG-35/...) -derivatives are marketed abroad a lot and they could use the cash I think...
And when they'd export it, wouldn't there be a good possibility that they export the PAK-FA to a country which then chooses to equip the jet with Western (f.e. Israeli or French) radar/sensors/electronics/weapons?

Or is all this also much too early to predict?


(**) I have read about the cooperation with India on the PAK-FA and the development of a version for India's needs.
Is there any info about a possible lighter or smaller version that may be designed or developped, let's say in the F-35-class of dimensions, possibly for export-markets or as a complement to the PAK-FA in the Russian Air Force?

 

[Sundog]

From the simplistic point of view, it seems to me the PAK-FA will be between the F-22 and the F-35, not the equivalent to the F-22. I base that on what the designers have said themselves. Although, I think the PAK-FA will be closer to the F-22 than the F-35. I also say that because of money and maintenance, and as many know it's the last 10% that requires a lot of the resources. I'm expecting the PAK-FA's performance to be about 90% of the F-22's.

I think of the PAK-FA as a stripped down F-22, in order for it to be more reliable and easier to maintain. Of course, the airplane I'm speaking of probably won't fly until five to ten years from now, by which time, hopefully the F-22 will be more reliable and easier to maintain. I also say that because the PAK-FA that is supposed to fly by the end of the year won't be a production representative aircraft. It won't be flying with the engines the production version is supposed to have. Hell, it could be ten years before those engines go into production. Also, you don't know what they'll find aerodynamically when they actually fly it that will need to be changed.

That's just MHO, as the speculation is largely irrelevant. It is what it is, and we'll know when we know.

 

[Matej]

Three examples for testing does not imply three full-scale complete airframes. It could be that there is an RCS model, an antenna/electronics test rig, etc. But yes, it would appear that the fourth T-50 "example" will be the first flying, full-scale prototype. The other three are likely static test, RCS test, and perhaps destructive test (i.e. test it under different load conditions until it breaks).

Thanks Sean and Greg for the first good explanation. I started to wonder, if somebody will also call the published badge as the "prototype". I add the exact explanation of the word: A prototype is an original type, form, or instance of something serving as a typical example, basis, or standard for other things of the same category. It means that if they are going to mass produce the RCS mockups, than the RCS mock-up can be named as the prototype. But apparently they are not, so it cant be named that way!

There will be THREE PROTOTYPES - two flying machines and one fully equipped for the static tests, complemented with the lot of other stuff as the partial construction parts, RCS mockups, exactly like YF-22 or YF-23. It was stated many times and during many occasions so what is not understandable on that? If somebody really needs, I can waste my time and find all the citations to support this statement.