Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part II [2008-2009]

[intoxicated]

To Sundog:
The new X-band AESA radar from NIIP at MAKS-2009 which has been designed specially for PAK-FA is not smaller than AN/APG-77. PAK-FA will make it's first flight with S-117 engines specially designed for Su-35BM. So PAK-FA will not be smaller than F-22. So PAK-FA will be at least capable as F-22. And so on and on ...

 

[sferrin]

To Sundog:
The new X-band AESA radar from NIIP at MAKS-2009 which has been designed specially for PAK-FA is not smaller than AN/APG-77. PAK-FA will make it's first flight with S-117 engines specially designed for Su-35BM. So PAK-FA will not be smaller than F-22. So PAK-FA will be at least capable as F-22. And so on and on ...

You mean it will be at least as LARGE I think. Capability remains to be seen.

 

[Sundog]

To Sundog:
The new X-band AESA radar from NIIP at MAKS-2009 which has been designed specially for PAK-FA is not smaller than AN/APG-77. PAK-FA will make it's first flight with S-117 engines specially designed for Su-35BM. So PAK-FA will not be smaller than F-22. So PAK-FA will be at least capable as F-22. And so on and on ...

The engines in the Su-35BM are just placeholders, until the engines being developed for the PAK-FA are ready. I hardly believe the S-117 engine is anywhere near as capable as the F-119 and it certainly doesn't possess the mass flow necessary as fitted to the Su-35. If they were, the Russians wouldn't be spending so much money developing new engines, since they could use the money elsewhere.

 

[Sundog]

To Sundog:
The new X-band AESA radar from NIIP at MAKS-2009 which has been designed specially for PAK-FA is not smaller than AN/APG-77. PAK-FA will make it's first flight with S-117 engines specially designed for Su-35BM. So PAK-FA will not be smaller than F-22. So PAK-FA will be at least capable as F-22. And so on and on ...

You mean it will be at least as LARGE I think. Capability remains to be seen.

Correct.

 

[flateric]

I don't know what are mysterious "S-117" engines are
I do know, meantime, "Article 117S" ones
http://www.umpo.ru/en/Section435_142.aspx
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2343.0/highlight,117s.html

 

[Dreamfighter]

Hum...adding to my previous questions:

When I'm informed correctly, Russian fighters (including the latest Su-30MKI/Su-35/... and MiG-35) are offered on the export-markets (much) cheaper then 'Western' combat-aircraft (and probably cost much less to produce).

Assuming PAK-FA would on average have the same dimensions (surface area & weight) as the F-22 or somewhere between the F-22 and F-35, and have similar capabilities/systems (stealth, high manoeuvrability, supercruise-performance, AESA, perhaps some kind of DAS-system, datalinking, sensor-fusing, etc...) as F-22 or F-35;
Would the Russian Air Force then be able to acquire PAK-FA in large numbers, when taking in mind Russia's current (and near term) defense budget and/or it's financial/economic ressources?

 

[donnage99]

which is back to my post about few pages back. The PAK-FA doesn't have the economy of scale, organized and powerful industrial base with advanced tooling process, experience with already building 5th generation fighter, decades of experience in operational stealth, large participation of many countries and secure orders in advance like that of the f-35 JSF program. And even with all that, the f-35 has to be a stripped down aircraft in term of quality to make it affordable 5th generation fighter for the US budget. Believing that the PAK-FA will have the capabilities of the f-22 while maintaining a reasonable price tag for Russia's military budget is straight out laughable. It will certainly be a very competitive aircraft on the market, but there's a limit to enthusiasm before it becomes delusional.

 

[ubiquitous08]

We are forgetting something. Probably a good 15-20 billion of the congressional cap went to developing technologies from scratch for the F 22. Gallium Arsenide chips, distributed architecture systems, stealth shaping were all in their infancy in the 80s, hence the tremendous cost testing, failing and finally correctly developing technologies. The result 20 years later? Gallium arsenide chips are in most cell phones, RCS prediction software fairly easy with todays affordable computing power. Distributed architecture? Every large office has it in simplified form. In fact data fusion tech is prob more advanced in commercial databasing applications. Manufacturing tech; that old chestnut. Very relevant to 80s, 90s Russia not so when they can BUY milling equipment from anyone. The new Active array modules are made with equipment purchased in Japan. Bottom line is Russia can look at the YF 23, YF 22, X 35, X 32, B2, X 36, Jast and countless other configurations for free, they can buy the best commercially available manufacturing equipment and have done so and finally don't have to spend a fortune developing basic technologiers since they are now commercially available. The F 22 costs c 140 million BUT it is built in the U.S not the cheapest place for labor. Russia is still considerably cheaper than the U.S for manufacture. Finally their Pakfa can be optimised for todays threats (L band VHF) not predominantly x band as the F 35 has been.

 

[flateric]

...well, average salary at KnAAPO is 600 bucks for workers, around 800 for mid-level engineering staff (last with some weekends spent at the office)
not per week, per month, I'd add

 

[sferrin]

We are forgetting something. Probably a good 15-20 billion of the congressional cap went to developing technologies from scratch for the F 22. Gallium Arsenide chips, distributed architecture systems, stealth shaping were all in their infancy in the 80s, hence the tremendous cost testing, failing and finally correctly developing technologies. The result 20 years later? Gallium arsenide chips are in most cell phones, RCS prediction software fairly easy with todays affordable computing power. Distributed architecture? Every large office has it in simplified form. In fact data fusion tech is prob more advanced in commercial databasing applications. Manufacturing tech; that old chestnut. Very relevant to 80s, 90s Russia not so when they can BUY milling equipment from anyone. The new Active array modules are made with equipment purchased in Japan. Bottom line is Russia can look at the YF 23, YF 22, X 35, X 32, B2, X 36, Jast and countless other configurations for free, they can buy the best commercially available manufacturing equipment and have done so and finally don't have to spend a fortune developing basic technologiers since they are now commercially available. The F 22 costs c 140 million BUT it is built in the U.S not the cheapest place for labor. Russia is still considerably cheaper than the U.S for manufacture. Finally their Pakfa can be optimised for todays threats (L band VHF) not predominantly x band as the F 35 has been.

And what are they going to make it out of?

 

[donnage99]

We are forgetting something.

Read my post, I wasn't comparing the PAK-FA with the f-22, I was comparing f-35 vs. PAK-FA. It shows none of the characteristics that are inherent in the f-35's program to make it cheap, so don't bet your eggs on it. And to correct one of your point, the yf-23, yf-22 were built in 6 years with the RCS models already tested and exceeded RCS requirements. Both lockheed and northrop already had gained tremendous experience in building stealth b-2, f-117 (which unsurprisingly resulted in their wins for the prototypes).

Finally their Pakfa can be optimised for todays threats (L band VHF) not predominantly x band

If they can make a tailess flying wing with agility and speed of a fighter, then sure, you can say it is optimised for L band VHF. Last time I check, the americans are still on the drawing boards for such technology.

 

[fightingirish]

Hi folks,
slight off-topic, but do you remember, when and how the Mig 1.44 ("MFI") and the Su-47 were presented?
Did you know before the presatation, how they looked like? Did you have any data before?
I just want to know, if we can compare their presentation routine with the presentation plan of the PAK-FA?
I hope, you get the intention of my question.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Pakfa can be optimised for todays threats (L band VHF) not predominantly x band as the F 35 has been

Care to elaborate on exactly which "L band VHF" radars these are?

 

[Gavin]

Hi folks,
slight off-topic, but do you remember, when and how the Mig 1.44 ("MFI") and the Su-47 were presented?
Did you know before the presatation, how they looked like? Did you have any data before?
I just want to know, if we can compare their presentation routine with the presentation plan of the PAK-FA?
I hope, you get the intention of my question.

If it helps answer your question, this link was available before the MiG was publicly unveiled: http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/MiG1.42.html

Notice in particular the "first official sketch" near the bottom of the page. I wish we had something "official" for the PAK FA.

 

[ubiquitous08]

My mistake on L band VHF. L band of course is UHF which is decimetric not metric like VHF. The radars in question are the Vostok E and Nebu SVU series radars. For a good primer on the subject. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html

As regards tailless designs to beat VHF I think you will find butterfly tails of YF 23 and large over 1-2 meter sized shaping will handle VHF to some degree...

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

iirc, the pak-fa's design is focused on "practical stealth" and given an aerodynamic approach to it. so, i don't think it will ever go within or beyond the stealth capabilities of the f22. we have to remember that R and D is budget constrained compared to that of US.

the only benefit on practicality is ofc on cost and compatibility with existing weapon systems. and given its usual modular approach, it is even possible to fit an existing engine before the designated engine will be equipped. well, imho russian practicality means that it will have a high growth potential, cost saving design, modularity and ease of maintenance. but ofc, it is a given that we will expect some basic form of stealth like offset intake ducts and planform alignment, but on the practical side may also integrate electronic stealth and passive sensors.

then again, it's just my 2 cents

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Well, I hardly think PAK-FA needs optimising against Vostok E and Nebu SVU, unless Russia is planning a civil war.

 

[ubiquitous08]

good point, was illustrating that the wavelengths one has to optimize for has changed at least for U.S products. The U.S reliance on X band actually makes a Russian system easier to design but this ignores CHINA, which does use VHF and as such a modern stealth vehicle needs to take these wavelengths into account.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

x band stealth optimization should be enough since vhf stealth will require a lot of resources and makes maintenance a nightmare :

 

[donnage99]

good point, was illustrating that the wavelengths one has to optimize for has changed at least for U.S products. The U.S reliance on X band actually makes a Russian system easier to design but this ignores CHINA, which does use VHF and as such a modern stealth vehicle needs to take these wavelengths into account.

The notion that with the emergence of vhf band radar, the americans hit themselves on the head with with the big surprise "oh, crap! we screwed up" is completely false. stealth aircraft vulnerability against lower frequency band is simple physics and common knowledge. The US has been open about b-2's vulnerability against these radars decades ago. So the reason why US stealth aircraft are x band optimized can only come down to cost, technological difficulties, etc. and the understanding that there's a long way to go for low frequency radars to become truly effective both technologically and tactically.

 

[avatar]

I keep hearing this whole whine about money. Money is not an issue.
This is a critical program for India given chinese J-XX / whatever interest and the proliferation of F-35s in the 2020-30 timeframe.
A day may soon arrive when we see a PLAAF flying hundreds of fifth generation fighters alongside enhanced fourth generation stuff.
And a Pakistan that flies both Chinese fifth generation designs as well as LM's babies. Uff, and some people think money is a major headache.

 

[flateric]

Gentlemen, topic is of PAK-FA. Don't force me to mention that on every page, please.

 

[donnage99]

Thank you, Flateric!

I keep hearing this whole whine about money. Money is not an issue.
This is a critical program for India given chinese J-XX / whatever interest and the proliferation of F-35s in the 2020-30 timeframe.
A day may soon arrive when we see a PLAAF flying hundreds of fifth generation fighters alongside enhanced fourth generation stuff.
And a Pakistan that flies both Chinese fifth generation designs as well as LM's babies. Uff, and some people think money is a major headache.

I think your post is irrelevant in that nobody is arguing to cancel the pak-fa and stick with flanker series. The argument is that it's unrealistic to expect both extremity in capability and affordability. The capabilities will be reasonable within the boundary of affordability. You can disagree or agree with the decision making of the politicians in charge to emphasize on either capability or affordability (which has alot to do with your world view), that's another entire different matter. However, one thing is for sure: the reality in history is that money has always been an issue behind military acquisition. So when we look at the PAK-FA, we have to take into account these things to arrive at the most realistic prediction concerning the plane.

 

[avatar]

Fine. I have no issues if you think it is irrelevant.

All in the interests of the PAK-FA only. ;D

 

[F-14D]

PAK FA radar info:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/08/28/331563/picture-russia-unveils-aesa-radar-for-pak-fa-fighter.html

 

[kcran567]

My predictions about Pakfa:

Pakfa will fly in 2011-2012 time frame.
Will somewhat resemble the f-22, but slightly smaller. Slightly more conventional looking but with definite stealth features.

Will be priced to appeal to countries denied the F-22, or who cant afford it.

Will be a winner (economically) based on this reason alone.

There will DEFINATELY be a LIGHTWEIGHT Fighter probably produced by MIG that will be much smaller than the F-35. To meet an hi/lo mix to complement the Pakfa.

Russia doesn't want to make the same mistake the USA did and end up with two super expensive fighters it cant afford. You need at least one "cheaper" alternative.

Maybe the USA can build a 3rd fighter that is actually affordable like the JSF was supposed to be.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

There will DEFINATELY be a LIGHTWEIGHT Fighter probably produced by MIG that will be much smaller than the F-35. To meet an hi/lo mix to complement the Pakfa.

Russia doesn't want to make the same mistake the USA did and end up with two super expensive fighters it cant afford. You need at least one "cheaper" alternative.

Your evidence for this being?

 

[kcran567]

Just my prediction...but I would bet $20 on it ;D

 

[kcran567]

Also heard a MIG or Sukhoi official say something to that effect, if I find the quote I'll post it. I am 100% sure that MIG was stated to be involved in a new light fighter, to complement the Pakfa, and it was not old news.

 

[T-50]

Kcran567 Why do you think that the PAK-FA have a more conventional look than the Raptor?that in my opinion the allways heard story and myth,the Russians have a simple design or it is a copy cat of a US Design! why are some people stays sticking in this sort of dreams?
It reminds me on the old story's of Japanese and again Russian aviation technology before the war,until the US and UK and offcourse Germany were surprised by the Japanese and Russians what they're planes were capable to do Like Yak-9 and Ki -61 or Ki-84 or MIG-15 MIG-29 or Su-27!
And many years ago the Suchoi build the Berkut that showed the west that the Russians aren't lagging behind and this was only a demonstrator! its development starts in the early 80!
So my prediction is the PAK-FA is the first true competitor/adversary that counter the F-22 on all aspects for the first time! even its design process is very advanced too its consaved by modern digital computers and very good engineers
The first signals are shown to us in the form of the Suchoi Su-35BM with a true modern cockpit interface that is moderner than the F-22 and is very close to that of the F-35! and its only a generation 4 plus aircraft.
So on the electronic part the Russians are closing the gap too!
With my story I want to say that the Russians are very capable to design and build a equal plane like F-22 and F-35

 

[donnage99]

Also heard a MIG or Sukhoi official say something to that effect, if I find the quote I'll post it. I am 100% sure that MIG was stated to be involved in a new light fighter, to complement the Pakfa, and it was not old news.

If I remember correctly, it's only a desperate marketing concept that they brought to India, which the India unsurprisingly shown no interest. As for your prediction, if it's a prediction without any supporting evidence, don't use words like "definitely." Just a little tip .

 

[kcran567]

Kcran567 Why do you think that the PAK-FA have a more conventional look than the Raptor?

I am not saying the Russians arent up to par as far as stealth, they have their doubts about American stealth as far as combat environment durability, cost, and other reasons.

And Sukhoi said that the Pakfa goal was stealth with more conventional airframe aerodynamics. Maybe they have incorporated radar and processing technologies that can detect f22/f35 like a more conventional planes...that would be a game changer that would save them billions, thats what they're waiting on...

But again i said it was only my opinion.

 

[donnage99]

Being able to detect stealthy aircraft doesn't make it stealthy. It still doesn't address its survivability in airspace full of SAM at all. VHF band radars aren't as effective as x-band radars, so a non stealthy aircraft that can detect stealth aircraft with VHF radars still find itself at severe disadvantage against a stealth aircraft with x-band radar. So I seriously doubt that PAK FA will put all its eggs in the aircraft's ability to detect stealth targets (if it can at all).

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

russians don't have to rely on radar alone to detect aircrafts. FLIR is a very viable compliment after all

 

[T-50]

Hello kcraw567 you're right about that Pogosjan have said it will be a more conventional airframe that i must say to you,and yes indeed the Russians have always a more logical design no extra fuss! but that is because their airplanes must operate in a more hardly climate and they're always more better maintainable than US designs.
So offcourse they chose for a more logical design.I thought you was saying that they choose a more conventional design because they were probably lagging behind, so my apologies for that!
I was reacting because a lot of people outside Russia are still thinking that Russia is lagging behind in design and electronics etc etc and that must be chanced
cheers T-50

 

[kcran567]

Thanks T-50 agree with you on that...

Donnage99 you made observation about SAM, stealth, x band and VHF

If Sukhoi doesn't invest its money in anti-stealth detection technologies and takes the American approach only this is what happens:

Pakfa and F-22 are in a merge and are equally undetectable to each other until only 15-20 kilometers effectively "invisible" to each other. Unless the Pakfa plane is using a new Ir (or other?) detection system they will eventually end up in WWI style dogfight and then the more superior plane in supermaneuverability and better aerodynamics wins. Not considering pilot factors.

Interesting side note: pilots in exercises had trouble detecting the f-22 in IR and radar too.
Pilots in the India exercise praised the MiG-21's Bison stealthiness due to its Israeli ECM equip, and small size. Imagine what a simple coat of RAM paint will do at a huge cost savings.
Sukhoi is surely considering these factors into the final PAKFA design.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Apologies - deleted this post by donnage99 by mistake.

russians don't have to rely on radar alone to detect aircrafts. FLIR is a very viable compliment after all

at an even more severely disadvantageous position. There are many supposedly stealth detectable technologies, there's a reason why I picked VHF radar out of the whole bunch.

 

[donnage99]

Thanks T-50 agree with you on that...

Donnage99 you made observation about SAM, stealth, x band and VHF

If Sukhoi doesn't invest its money in anti-stealth detection technologies and takes the American approach only this is what happens:

Pakfa and F-22 are in a merge and are equally undetectable to each other until only 15-20 kilometers effectively "invisible" to each other. Unless the Pakfa plane is using a new Ir (or other?) detection system they will eventually end up in WWI style dogfight and then the more superior plane in supermaneuverability and better aerodynamics wins. Not considering pilot factors.

I never said that PAK FA won't invest money into anti-stealth tech. They ARE doing it right now. I'm saying they won't bet all their eggs in that basket. The ability to detect stealth targets are not a game changer if you yourself are nonstealthy. As for your prediction, I don't think so. Stealth isn't so black and white. There are many level of stealthiness. The aircraft with smaller RCS (stealthier) and better avionics still hold the advantage. Knowing your enemy first will always hold the advantage no matter how close toward WVR, because the guy who knows first wil force his own term onto the other guy, and this also translate directly into WVR. As for better maneuverability will be a main factor to decide the outcome of WVR dogfight, I also disagree. We are at the age where emerging extreme high off bore sight missiles and HMD are rapidly improved, making maneuverability at WVR more and more insignificant. The best way to survive WVR in the future is to NOT get into one at all, and if you get into one, the less maneuver (so you can maintain energy and geometry advantage to run away) you do while quickly get a lock and shoot with a HMD, the better chance you will survive.

Interesting side note: pilots in exercises had trouble detecting the f-22 in IR and radar too.
Pilots in the India exercise praised the MiG-21's Bison stealthiness due to its Israeli ECM equip, and small size. Imagine what a simple coat of RAM paint will do at a huge cost savings.
Sukhoi is surely considering these factors into the final PAKFA design.

To think that the bison's stealthiness is anywhere close to even a eurofighter typhoon or super hornet is already laughable much less the raptor.

 

[fightingirish]

This last PAK FA render is not bad...

Edit 1: I found this picture at militaryphotos.net. No original source so far!
Edit 2: Maybe it is done by Paralay, because it is on his homepage. ???

 

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

Damn... If it wasn't for that pilot standing out like he is, I'd say that was a picture of the real PAK-FA.