Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part I [2006-2008]

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Source:www.sukhoi.org

23.07.2008 "Sukhoi" prepares for increase in deliveries of the Air Forces of Russia and increases a portfolio of orders for "Superjet"

Moscow, on July, 23rd. In the near future with Military-air forces of Russia the conclusion of the long-term five years' contract is planned for delivery of several tens Su-34 that will allow company "Sukhoi" to develop a full-scale batch production of these front bombers. These deliveries will create preconditions and for an exit of this aircraft on the world market. The Air Forces of the Russian Federation also intend to buy two-three regiments of multipurpose fighters Su-35. For input in a system of an aviacomplex of the fifth generation it is necessary to pass long enough period of working out, manufacture and tests. Su-35 could fill it. As to export prospects of a new fighter it will be interesting first of all to the countries already maintaining Su-30. It general director АХК "Sukhoi" Michael Pogosjan has declared in published today interview to the newspaper of "Sheet".

Speaking about working out of an aviation complex of the fifth generation, M.Pogosjan has informed that the program is financed in full, and dynamics of working out and preparation of a batch production of a fighter gives the grounds to consider that the schedules co-ordinated with the customer will be executed. He has underlined, as after the beginning of serial release of a fighter of the fifth generation long enough period in parallel will be made and deeply modernised planes of the fourth generation. It shows experiment of the USA - the unique country where the plane of fifth generation F-22 is issued. There advanced fighters of the previous generation, such, as F-16, F-18E/F are in parallel made.

Michael Pogosjan has positively estimated cooperation with India under the program of creation of a fighter of the fifth generation (PAK ФА). Very important, he that such program initially developed as international considers. India is important in the given project and for expansion of the market of sales of the plane, and from the point of view of industrial and scientific cooperation under the project. The conclusion of the contract on joint working out of PAK ФА is expected till the end of this year.

Successfully work under the program regional passenger « Sukhoi Superjet 100» (SSJ 100) develops. Flight tests of the plane go at full speed. They confirm characteristics and the settlement parametres earlier simulated at stands. It allows to hope for successful end of tests in the declared terms. As to signing of new contracts, how the head "Sukhoi" considers, at realisation of such difficult projects there should be a balance between quantity of the orders received to, during time and after the beginning of tests, and also after batch production expansion. Therefore, increasing quantity of orders, it is not necessary to force this process as risks in case of a delay of terms of their performance raise. Nevertheless, to have firm orders at a current stage of the program it is necessary, without it it is difficult to finance batch production expansion. Taking into account that "Sukhoi" is the manufacturer new to this market, and SSJ 100 – a new product, the quantity of already received and prospective orders speaks about good dynamics of the project.

End of the first stage of certification of the plane on the Russian norms is expected in the middle of the next year. Certification under the European standards EASA which reception is planned in second half of 2009 Initial deliveries of the plane in parallel prepares will be carried out on the basis of the Russian certificate.

As to strategy of development of the civil project "Sukhoi" creation of planes большей and smaller dimension, and also business-dzheta is planned. Decisions under these projects it will be declared in the near future. Today the main task, concludes Michael Pogosjan, - to achieve successful certification of the base plane and to begin its batch production. The basic resources of the company are concentrated to performance of this problem.
 
Are these guys saying anything relevant? Sorry I don't speak Russian.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=37637309

If not here's some interesting footage of Russian fighter production anyway.

Cheers, Woody
 
They had quite a cutie working behind the computers there at one point:)


I'm also surprised they showed a Sukhio going down because of pilot error.
 
New Russian Fighter to Be Several Times More Superior Than Modern Combat Airplanes


The distinguishing features of the future tactical aircraft aviation complex ((PAK-FA)) will be its unique flying and combat characteristics, Russia's air force commander-in-chief, General-Colonel Aleksandr Zelin, declares.

"The creation of the fifth generation combat airplane is a priority program for the air force. As a result of its execution, the new generation multirole airplane intended for replacement of the Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters and which exceeds them by several times in combat potential, is supposed to reach the air force inventory," Zelin declared to journalists on Friday.

He noted that the future fighter has the following new properties: a multirole capability, ultra-maneuverability, omni-directional and multichannel weapons application, precision destruction of ground objects, improved takeoff and landing performance, a lowered detectability level and supersonic cruise.

Source: 08.08.08, Interfax
 
India may test futuristic jets by 2015

8 Aug 2008, 0315 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: India hopes that the first developmental flight of the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), to be co-developed with Russia, will take place by 2015-2016.

The FGFA, as envisaged by IAF to fulfil its futuristic requirements, will have a lethal mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities. Apart from a ‘‘minimal’’ radar tracking signature to impart stealth, the FGFA will have ‘‘a very high degree of network centricity’’, as also multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems — optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors.

‘‘The FGFA should fly for the first time by 2015 or so. If it manages to do so earlier, then it will be a big achievement. Negotiations with Russia are making good progress, with the details being worked out,’’ IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told TOI on Thursday.

‘‘It is very complex to design and develop an FGFA. The FGFA we want will be an entirely new platform, with many additional features, stealth being an important one,’’ he added. The ongoing negotiations with Russia flow from the FGFA agreement signed during the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical cooperation meeting, co-chaired by defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart, last October.

The bone of contention is that Russia has already frozen the design parameters of its FGFA, the single-seater Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA, the first prototype of which is likely to take to the skies by 2009.

India, however, wants a twin-seater FGFA built to its requirements, which will obviously require several design changes. With the FGFA project expected to cost $8-10 billion, a cash-starved Russia is agreeable to the idea of having both single and twin-seater versions. ‘‘The various issues are being sorted out,’’ said an official.


There is only one operational FGFA in the world at present, the American F/A-22 ‘Raptor’, which comes at a whopping $142 million apiece. Another, the F-35 ‘Lightning-II’, in turn, is still under joint development by US, UK and seven other countries.

The most potent fighter in the IAF fleet currently is the Sukhoi-30MKI, which can be placed a little over fourth-generation, along with others like Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen and F/A-18 ‘Super Hornets’. While fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities, FGFA takes it forward by incorporating stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well.

Since it will take well over a decade for an Indo-Russian FGFA to become fully-operational, IAF is banking upon the 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia at an overall cost of around $8.5 billion. Then, of course, there is also the mammoth $10.4 billion project to induct 126 new multi-role combat aircraft in IAF from 2012-2013 onwards.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/3339596.cms
 
Woody said:
Are these guys saying anything relevant? Sorry I don't speak Russian.



If not here's some interesting footage of Russian fighter production anyway.

Cheers, Woody


If you closely, you'll see a difference in display philosophy between Russian and Western designers. Whereas on the HSI we tend to hold the aircraft or wings symbol fixed in roll and move the horizon representation, they hold the horizon level and rotate the aircraft symbol (kind of like turn and bank indicators in some light airplanes). Personally, I find their way more instinctive, but our way is so ingrained in Western designs, it's unlikely ever to change.
 
Flateric can you tell us if there are any new news about the PAK-FA production? Will the aircraft's cockpit be the same of the Su-35 or will they change the displays and joystick like F-35.And will 2 seater version of the PAK-FA get by the RUAF in the future together with the INDIAN AIR FORCE.Do you have any idea?
 
have read somewhere at the Sukhoi.ru forum that crew station will be very close to Su-35 with a central stick

Once more, cropped from old, February 2006 interview of Pogosyan - "Aircraft that Sukhoi is currently working on, is not of a heavy class, but of intermediate dimensions [] ...lower, then F-22/1.44/Berkut"
 
Well. This is my first post here. Frankly... , maybe i'm the most informed _WWW-user_ on PAK-FA subject who at the same time does not have any access to any classified data ;D :p (and even does not live in Russia) :p .
Following the news about PAK-FA and forums also, and sources on WWW, some time ago i started to think what the PAK-FA is (.. it worth to mention the paralay site also ;) ). So after many trials and errors i drew a speculation named "pak-fa paralay based v4" and posted it on sukhoi.ru forum . Also created some 3D pictures. And finally, decided to register here and post them (you cannot find them searching google or on paralay site). Well, to be honest, i did all these speculations in effort to guess what it (PAK-FA) represents, this was the goal from the beginning. I don't know how well a have performed the task, and as you know there are some people on WWW who can answer ;D .
So, could any discussion on them be started? :D
 

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Interesting to note that while Pogosyan talking of sneaky shadow of Raptor, guys still tend to draw flying analogues of USS New Jersey. Let's put SS-21 on top of fuselage as well...

You will be some kind of surprised of what you'll see in fact...and many will be rather disappointed.

Nice drawings, though.
 
What about will it look like a 5th generation or 4th generation aircraft for your opinion Flateric?Did you mean it will be smilar of the F-22 or F-35 or some Russian 4th generation aircrats by saying lots of people will be dissappointed.And if they even don't change the stick's position what will be the difference in the cockpit of the Su-35 and the PAK-FA. Even it's very dissappointing, 1970's style.Just 4th generation fighters using stick at the middle of the displays.
 
If they use central stick even it happens a big dissappointment for me.Like a 4th generation aircraft.
 
flateric said:
have read somewhere at the Sukhoi.ru forum that crew station will be very close to Su-35 with a central stick

Once more, cropped from old, February 2006 interview of Pogosyan - "Aircraft that Sukhoi is currently working on, is not of a heavy class, but of intermediate dimensions [] ...lower, then F-22/1.44/Berkut"

These are good news,don't get me wrong, but i was worried to see another overweighted plane with average performances like the F-22A, or F-35

The most ridiculous speculation is about these AESA arround all the holy airframe!, since to reach a huge coverage the Irbis is more than enough, and where you can get space/weight margin to all these radars?, and i seriously doubt the russians will fit any AESA until they get a design with a directional array, i seriously doubt they are considering to put into service fixed AESA arrays

The other speculation is about these L band radars, i dont know is there is a real L-band tracking component , or the IFF system, about it , i just will wait and see

I think the PAKFA will look like the T-54..or like the Rockwell ATF proposal....but with stealthy tweaks, anyway, the F-22/23 were tweaked conventional airframes.
 
Some explanations about my speculation. First of all - it IS an absolutely lamer speculation based on some stuff from here and there (as it must be). Nevertheless, the overall equipment and weight is with compliance with official claims (the exception being the statement from Pogosyan that the plane is smaller than Berkut/Su-27/MiG-1.44 or medium class). There are claims from NIIP that a millimeter, centimeter and decimeter band radars will be onboard. So i found places to put them. The most important thing we must consider is the armament - it determines the size and so on. But here we have only some kind of tiny information/disinformation about very long range missile being developed ... BUT also have a picture of a new anti-radar missile with folding wings on MAKS-2007, and also we know the base requirement for usage of AS weapons. So it is rather likely to have a bay capable to accomodate some number of such relatively big missiles. And there is another issue - not only the great range of such kind of missile (and acceleration) but also it's multispectral capabilities (mentioned somewhere on semi-official level). Such kind of missile gives a definte superiority; by my estimation quite higher probability to kill every kind of target in comparison to AIM-120/R-77 kind of missile. Further - what number, and here comes a speculation drawing showing three R-37 and four R-77 missiles inside a huge bay, so it is worth to look at such scheme. But here also comes the question - where is the WVR weaponry? So it must be accomodated somewhere and i choose to be lateral but ejected downwards, the idea being that opened bay-doors should not disturb the flux around wing. The ducts need to be S-shaped and the scheme goes ahead.

So finaly we have a plane about 2,3 meters longer than F-22 and a little bit heavier, but it will have undoubted supremacy against F-22 not only through the aramament (50% more to mention) but also it's armament qualities, and the capabilities in BVR, close BVR and WVR fight - all around radar multispectral coverage (not absolutely full in all theese aspects though), and as an effect also quite better net-centric performance. Also to mention more possibilities for expendable countermeasures onboard, and multipurposeness. And to mention that more missiles onboard may be needed for future fights against UCAVs.
 
I agree that these are only lamer drawings, nothing more. It's all about having some kind of fun :D .
 
intoxicated said:
Well. This is my first post here. Frankly... , maybe i'm the most informed _WWW-user_ on PAK-FA subject who at the same time does not have any access to any classified data ;D :p (and even does not live in Russia) :p .
Following the news about PAK-FA and forums also, and sources on WWW, some time ago i started to think what the PAK-FA is (.. it worth to mention the paralay site also ;) ). So after many trials and errors i drew a speculation named "pak-fa paralay based v4" and posted it on sukhoi.ru forum . Also created some 3D pictures. And finally, decided to register here and post them (you cannot find them searching google or on paralay site). Well, to be honest, i did all these speculations in effort to guess what it (PAK-FA) represents, this was the goal from the beginning. I don't know how well a have performed the task, and as you know there are some people on WWW who can answer ;D .
So, could any discussion on them be started? :D

Very good effort. Anything at this point is only speculation but who knows, maybe your design is closer than you realize!

-----JT-----
 
medal64 said:
What about will it look like a 5th generation or 4th generation aircraft for your opinion Flateric?Did you mean it will be smilar of the F-22 or F-35 or some Russian 4th generation aircrats by saying lots of people will be dissappointed.And if they even don't change the stick's position what will be the difference in the cockpit of the Su-35 and the PAK-FA. Even it's very dissappointing, 1970's style.Just 4th generation fighters using stick at the middle of the displays.

Better to use the normal stick than the side-handed one, the conventional sticks give you a softer control (stick arc) of the plane, and if is well designed it can be ergonomic

About the cockpit and displays, seriously, the su-35 is way better than the F-22 on that matter, i think it was designed arround how the pilot's psychological workload could be reduced, the displays seem pretty clean and ordered, and are huge to present more info on them, so the pilot doesn't need to switch to another display, very different from all the other planes

IMO they did it quite well, while the fashion was to put more and more LCD's arround the cockpit, they broke the cycle and just put 2 big screens with digital managment
 
About the cockpit and displays, seriously, the su-35 is way better than the F-22 on that matter, i think it was designed arround how the pilot's psychological workload could be reduced, the displays seem pretty clean and ordered, and are huge to present more info on them, so the pilot doesn't need to switch to another display, very different from all the other planes

Considering how classified the info displayed in the F-22's cockpit is, you would know the Su-35's cockpit is better how?
 
Spring said:
Better to use the normal stick than the side-handed one, the conventional sticks give you a softer control (stick arc) of the plane,

So you have flown both in the real world?
 
Conventional stick is much more handy as well in a case of pilot is being wounded.

Regarding Su-35 cockpit - at MAKS MiG gurus who were developing interface for MiG-35, were not happy with what they have seen at Su-35 - they call it wish of putting as much large displays on a panel as possible with no sense of ergonomics and user interface. Just what I've read.
 
In "Dry" the new policy in the field of quality is accepted

Moscow, on August, 21st. In "Sukhoi" the document defining to the politician in the field of quality at a today's stage of development of holding is accepted. Here the new projects focused on internal and a foreign market are realised. The company prepares for the beginning of a batch production of the regional passenger plane «Sukhoi Superjet 100», conducts works on creation of a multipurpose fighter Su-35 and an aviation complex of the fifth generation.

Source :www.sukhoi.org
 
flateric said:
Conventional stick is much more handy as well in a case of pilot is being wounded.

And how often has that happened in the last 40 years?
 
I think they will already apply side stick to the PAK-FA.Because even at su-37 tested it.And at the cockpit of the model su-47 cockpit there isn't central stick.
 

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I suppose many of you have seen this before, I just think it should be added to thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh36B167MY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h6_AvT-uv4
 

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This picture is also very similar with the model su-47 cockpit.But it's a Su-37 cockpit.
 

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medal64 said:
If they use central stick even it happens a big dissappointment for me.Like a 4th generation aircraft.

Fly-by-wire technology makes it possible to put the control stick on the side console, but that doesn't necessarily make it preferable. Ultimately, like everything else in aircraft design, it's a trade-off. Here's a quote from an old article about the Israeli Lavi's cockpit design:

"A wrap around windshield and bubble canopy gave excellent all-around vision. But where a steeply raked seat and sidestick controller similar to the F-16 might have been expected, IAI selected a conventional upright seat and central control column. The reasoning was as follows. The raked seat raised the pilot's knees, causing a reduction in panel space which could ill be spared, while neck and shoulder strains were common in the F-16 when a pilot craned around in his steeply raked seat to search the sky astern while pulling high g. The sidestick controller was faulted on three counts:

1. It virtually neutralised the starboard console space.
2. With a force transducer it was difficult for an instructor pilot to know precisely what a pupil was trying to do.
3. In the event of quite a minor injury to the right arm, the pilot would not be able to recover the Lavi to its base. With a central stick, the Lavi could be flown left-handed with little difficulty."
 
flateric said:
I suppose many of you have seen this before, I just think it should be added to thread

That bottom one looks like they're trying to beat the YF-22 in the ugly contest. ;D
 
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47

The text is about the su 47 cockpit

The cockpit's design has focused on maintaining a high degree of comfort for the pilot and also on the pilot being able to control the aircraft in extremely high g-load manoeuvres. The aircraft is equipped with a new ejection seat and life support system. The variable geometry adaptive ejection seat is inclined at an angle of 60°, which reduces the impact of high g forces on the pilot. The seat allows dogfight and missile avoidance maneuvers with significantly higher g loadings than can normally be tolerable. The Su-47 pilot uses a side-mounted, low-travel control stick and a tensiometric throttle control.This reclined seating arrangement was first used in the F-16 Fighting Falcon but was determined to be of little value however it was replicated in the F-22A Raptor.
 
Ogami musashi said:
flateric:

Where does those images come from?

Thanks.

Check the youtube link. Someone has uploaded two videos. Suppose this is another fake leak or another fanart.
 
The PAKFA would already lost the competition with F-22 if this Raptorski would be.
1)Eccept other aspects, I don't know how Russian experts to resolve the boundray layer flow back among the wing and converge with the boundray layer caused by fuselage, this is the biggerst reason why FSW is not appropriate for transonic period.
2)The FSW looks like a big reflector for long wave radar.
3)The FSW certainly is a aerodynemic diverge form for supersonic flight, unless Russian don't want competable supercruise capability with F-22.
4)The dosal fin is too large for a matural OVT tech which Russian was skillful to
The only advantage of the FSW is the vertical fin could be flown more air within AoA.
I have to say this is A very bad layout for PAKFA.
 
Great Finds Flaterick!
I am very happy to see some progress towards a reasonable layout. It looks just the right mix of legacy Russian and western thinking. Notice the use of a divert-less inlet.

I bet Suhoi will do everything they can to make the FSW configuration work. To adopt a delta wing will be like admitting 15 years of wasted research time in the wrong direction.

What bother me is why most new design tend to be more YF-22 looking and not YF-23 looking, knowing the later had the more advanced approach?

Anyway, this is PAK-FA is starting to shape a lot like a very late A/F-X contender without the stealthy part.
 
The Designers have already said it won't have a FSW, which makes sense due to it's limitations, and it won't supercruise, because they don't have the engines for it. Why so many here don't believe them is beyond me.

One day, the PAK-FA may be better than the F-22, but that's assuming the U.S. never upgrades the F-22 while the PAK-FA is being developed. The PAK-FA won't be a "threat" for at least 10 to 12 years, so I wouldn't bet on the PAK-FA going up agianst the F-22 that exists now; it will surely be upgraded by then.
 
Sundog said:
The Designers have already said it won't have a FSW, which makes sense due to it's limitations, and it won't supercruise, because they don't have the engines for it. Why so many here don't believe them is beyond me.

One day, the PAK-FA may be better than the F-22, but that's assuming the U.S. never upgrades the F-22 while the PAK-FA is being developed. The PAK-FA won't be a "threat" for at least 10 to 12 years, so I wouldn't bet on the PAK-FA going up agianst the F-22 that exists now; it will surely be upgraded by then.

Well, since the weight of the new aircraft will be between the su-27 and the mig-29 (maybe arround 14,000 kg) and the new Al engines are 14,500 kgf class engines, i do not see so hard a practical supercruiser (+M1.5) Pakfa , even with the interim engines, with these weigth/thrust the fighter would have even more T/W than the F-22

The Pak fa is not figthing for the F-22 market (which does not have, due it very high cost), is fighting the F-35 maket, with the performance of an F-22, maybe better

I just have seen that Youtube video, i can not believe some of you have taken this seriously, that is a fan video, not an "evolution towards western designs" like said lantinian
 
With the *new* engines hopefully arriving in prototype form in 2015, we hopefully will have see IOC Su-something ca.2020-2022.

This is OPTIMISTIC forecast.

I hope I will live long enough to see the event. Need to check my blood pressure, though.
 
The new engine which is projected for 2015 is a new technology engine, and might introduce the famous variable bypass technology, remember as was stated before , the PAKFA will be smaller than the F-22 (which have 20,000 kg of weigth), sukhoi is not so desperated for a new engine with even more thrust than the new Al-31, which seems already has reached the 1/10 T/W rate
 
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