Su-30, Su-33, Su-34 and Su-35 News thread, pictures and discussion

You sure Joint Soviet Fighter? I thought I remember an su-35 getting ir imagery of an f-22 from its EO sight a few years back.
 
Based on Tass news and overscan's source what kind of stuff does the Su-35SE have? N011M bars? irbis?
 
Null said:
Based on Tass news and overscan's source what kind of stuff does the Su-35SE have? N011M bars? irbis?
Click to expand...

There is no "Su-35SE" or "Su-35K" All there is only "Su-35".

It will come with Irbis by default. Export version of course but still Irbis with her 20 KW glory and 90 cm antenna. If you want Bars then buy Su-30SM, she has Bars.
 
stealthflanker said:
There is no "Su-35SE" or "Su-35K" All there is only "Su-35".

It will come with Irbis by default. Export version of course but still Irbis with her 20 KW glory and 90 cm antenna. If you want Bars then buy Su-30SM, she has Bars.
Click to expand...
One thing that always bugging me is how come Irbis average power is only 5kW which work out to max duty cycle of 25%. I wonder why it doesn’t have the 50% duty cycle mode like AWG-9 for extreme range. AWG-9 average power is something like 10kW.
 
Ronny said:
One thing that always bugging me is how come Irbis average power is only 5kW which work out to max duty cycle of 25%. I wonder why it doesn’t have the 50% duty cycle mode like AWG-9 for extreme range. AWG-9 average power is something like 10kW.
Click to expand...

Well eclipsing phenomenon. As the radar only have 1 antenna, you will need means to protect the receiver from power spillage during transmission, Thus duplexer exist.

Now 50% duty cycle means the radar PRF or pulsewidth will be so large that even when you start "listening" to return pulse after you transmitted your waveform, you can actually still receive returns from target. But you cant make use of this as that pulse may arrive at the time when you start transmitting, the duplexer engages and thus whatever "excess" you have is lost.

The other drawback is no range measurement, despite having longest range, this 50% mode have name "VS" or Velocity Search only, means you cannot measure range, you have to rely on FM Ranging. Also No tailchase/not all aspect. Only good against head on closing target.

Also AWG-9 is 5 KW peak like Irbis. 10 KW being the peak.
 
stealthflanker said:
Now 50% duty cycle means the radar PRF or pulsewidth will be so large that even when you start "listening" to return pulse after you transmitted your waveform, you can actually still receive returns from target. But you cant make use of this as that pulse may arrive at the time when you start transmitting, the duplexer engages and thus whatever "excess" you have is lost.

The other drawback is no range measurement, despite having longest range, this 50% mode have name "VS" or Velocity Search only, means you cannot measure range, you have to rely on FM Ranging. Also No tailchase/not all aspect. Only good against head on closing target.
Click to expand...
I understand that you can't measure range with pulse delay in VS mode, however, it is still plausible to measure range by motion analysis or altitude different ranging. I think Irbis with 50% duty cycle could have even more insane range than it does now.


stealthflanker said:
Also AWG-9 is 5 KW peak like Irbis. 10 KW being the peak.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, I miss remember. It was the APG-71 that has 7kW average
 
Ronny said:
IIRC, 101KS-O are electro optical rather than IIR. Basically similar to TCS rather than AAS-42
Click to expand...
Those are laser "guns" first, jamming modern(imaging) IR missiles.
Its mirror is consequently for same bands as WVR missile seekers.

But it's also a sensor - because, unlike optical jammer(that can be aimed roughly), coherent jammmer needs to lase exactly the seeker of the target. It is its own source of (laser, but almost certainly not only) firing solution.

Or did you mean KS-V/OLS-50M?(which btw may also have turret function, but this is my speculation)
 
Ronny said:
it is still plausible to measure range by motion analysis or altitude different ranging
Click to expand...

Not as accurate as good ol Pulse delay ranging. Thus why you still have radar works in Low-Medium PRF.

Ronny said:
I think Irbis with 50% duty cycle could have even more insane range than it does now.
Click to expand...

You still wont solve eclipsing loss tho, and that will cap your range.
 
Ainen said:
Those are laser "guns" first, jamming modern(imaging) IR missiles.
Its mirror is consequently for same bands as WVR missile seekers.

But it's also a sensor - because, unlike optical jammer(that can be aimed roughly), coherent jammmer needs to lase exactly the seeker of the target. It is its own source of (laser, but almost certainly not only) firing solution.

Or did you mean KS-V/OLS-50M?(which btw may also have turret function, but this is my speculation)
Click to expand...
I mean 101KS-O has laser turret but the sensor that used to steer the laser turret is CCD rather than IIR
 
stealthflanker said:
Not as accurate as good ol Pulse delay ranging. Thus why you still have radar works in Low-Medium PRF.
Click to expand...
agree, but why not having something working at Low-medium-high depend on situation?
We don't need to use 50% duty cycle all the time.
stealthflanker said:
You still wont solve eclipsing loss tho, and that will cap your range.
Click to expand...
yes, but I would think that 50% duty cycle AWG-9 has longer range than 20% duty cycle AWG-9 , so Irbis is the same
 
Ronny said:
agree, but why not having something working at Low-medium-high depend on situation?
We don't need to use 50% duty cycle all the time.
Click to expand...

It's already done. Like current fighter radars have all Low-Medium-High PRF modes. e.g Low PRF for no clutter situation or ground mapping, medium PRF is for all-aspect detection and interleaved with High PRF. It's just that duty cycle are typically 25-30%.

Ronny said:
yes, but I would think that 50% duty cycle AWG-9 has longer range than 20% duty cycle AWG-9 , so Irbis is the same
Click to expand...

Maybe but what if your cooling or even weight constraint cannot allow more ? radar cooling capacity are dictated by average power. the more power, means more cooling. More cooling means heavier cooler or heavier cooling fins.
 
TMA1 said:
You sure Joint Soviet Fighter? I thought I remember an su-35 getting ir imagery of an f-22 from its EO sight a few years back.
Click to expand...
That's long since been debunked, as the aircraft in the picture wasn't even an F-22. The only footage from The OLS-35 that I've been able to find is this clip via Twitter, below, that shows an MQ-9 Reaper at point-blank range, which isn't exactly very helpful for our purposes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1806449914185990251
View: https://x.com/cyphe0r/status/1806449914185990251
 
stealthflanker said:
It's already done. Like current fighter radars have all Low-Medium-High PRF modes. e.g Low PRF for no clutter situation or ground mapping, medium PRF is for all-aspect detection and interleaved with High PRF. It's just that duty cycle are typically 25-30%.
Click to expand...
:( yeah, such a shame that they don't use 50% anymore it seem
stealthflanker said:
Maybe but what if your cooling or even weight constraint cannot allow more ? radar cooling capacity are dictated by average power. the more power, means more cooling. More cooling means heavier cooler or heavier cooling fins.
Click to expand...
Even the current block 3, F-35 has 40kW cooling, F-15E currently has 35kW cooling that can be expanded to 52kW
I would assume that something the size of Flanker has even more cooling since it is even bigger than F-15 and carry even more fuel, there should be so much space and spare weight for cooling purpose
Screenshot 2025-02-10 175057.png
 
Ronny said:
:( yeah, such a shame that they don't use 50% anymore it seem
Click to expand...

It really isn't. 50% duty cycle sacrifices range measurement accuracy for a minor range increase. Modern radars don't need it. In fact modern radars use the least power possible while achieving needed range, not blasting out high power for the sake of it.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
It really isn't. 50% duty cycle sacrifices range measurement accuracy for a minor range increase. Modern radars don't need it. In fact modern radars use the least power possible while achieving needed range, not blasting out high power for the sake of it.
Click to expand...
With higher duty cycle, you can transmit pulse with lower peak power and still get the same detection range. Radar with higher duty cycle can be harder to detect, ancient radar actually has very low duty cycle and high peak power
 
Quite right Ronny. Case in point the AMCA that has not progressed well over the years of it's existence either has it?
 
Waterballoon said:
There is another radar for a possible new MKI radar from India. 350km vs 5sqm, 250km vs 2sqm and 200km vs 1 sqm.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1889269422503669903
View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1889269422503669903
Click to expand...
Acc. to @stealthflanker 's calculations, that other radar that is offered for the "super flanker mod." seemed quite capable already so do I smell a competition on the horizon?

1000019481.jpg 1000019482.png

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843757228769325138
View: https://x.com/Flankerchan/status/1843757228769325138?t=eOPvF5FDwCMoYDuehlIc-A&s=19
 
Ronny said:
One thing that always bugging me is how come Irbis average power is only 5kW which work out to max duty cycle of 25%. I wonder why it doesn’t have the 50% duty cycle mode like AWG-9 for extreme range. AWG-9 average power is something like 10kW.
Click to expand...

stealthflanker said:
Well eclipsing phenomenon. As the radar only have 1 antenna, you will need means to protect the receiver from power spillage during transmission, Thus duplexer exist.

Now 50% duty cycle means the radar PRF or pulsewidth will be so large that even when you start "listening" to return pulse after you transmitted your waveform, you can actually still receive returns from target. But you cant make use of this as that pulse may arrive at the time when you start transmitting, the duplexer engages and thus whatever "excess" you have is lost.

The other drawback is no range measurement, despite having longest range, this 50% mode have name "VS" or Velocity Search only, means you cannot measure range, you have to rely on FM Ranging. Also No tailchase/not all aspect. Only good against head on closing target.

Also AWG-9 is 5 KW peak like Irbis. 10 KW being the peak.
Click to expand...

Ronny said:
I understand that you can't measure range with pulse delay in VS mode, however, it is still plausible to measure range by motion analysis or altitude different ranging. I think Irbis with 50% duty cycle could have even more insane range than it does now.



Ah yes, I miss remember. It was the APG-71 that has 7kW average
Click to expand...

stealthflanker said:
It's already done. Like current fighter radars have all Low-Medium-High PRF modes. e.g Low PRF for no clutter situation or ground mapping, medium PRF is for all-aspect detection and interleaved with High PRF. It's just that duty cycle are typically 25-30%.



Maybe but what if your cooling or even weight constraint cannot allow more ? radar cooling capacity are dictated by average power. the more power, means more cooling. More cooling means heavier cooler or heavier cooling fins.
Click to expand...

I know for this topic : https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/niip-bars-and-irbis-series-of-radar-for-su-30-su-35.622/

but I will write some details here, if it is right. I made some mistakes about radars on the Su-57 topic ,yes but here we have some 'kW-values' which I want to discuss. If I'm wrong ,please correct me,tnx.

From what I know ( 've read and understood from the Russian literature ), there is ''average transmitter power'' and ''max output pulse power'' ( both values for HPRF working mode, usually ). For older ''mechanical'' radars e.g. that AN/AWG-9 in F-14A/B Tomcat or PESA N007 called Zaslon in the MiG-31 (or RP-31,SBI-16,BRLS-8B,S-800) , we have next 'kW-values' : 2.5kW is the average transmitter/TWT power in the HPRF mode and 10kW is the max output pulse power in the HPRF mode. Besides this, N007 Zaslon has the secondary TWT ( only for the lock-on and CWI mode) with average power of 1kW. Also for the older 'mechanical' radars like AN/APG-63/-70 ( F-15A/B/C/D/E), AN/APG-68( F-16C/D), N001/E Myech (Su-27S/SKUB/UBK/30,MK/MK2 ) and N019/E Rubin (MiG-29 9.12,9.13 9.12A/B) ,all of them have average transmitter power in the HPRF mode of about 1kW and max output pulse power in the HPRF mode 5-8kW.
If we talk about PRF, e.g. in the HPRF mode, values are usually: 150kHz-250kHz.

So ''average transmitter power'' is average pulse power and ''max output pulse power'' is in fact Peak power?

When we talk about newer radars with PESA like that N011M Bars-M(R) in the Su-30SM(SME), then exported Su-30MKA,MKI and MKM, if I'm right ,there is only one TWT with the average power in the HPRF mode of 1.5 or maybe even 4.5kW ??? Max output pulse power in the HPRF mode is 15kW??? In this photo of the rear cockpit of the Su-30SM, we can see PPS ( front hemisphere) combat mode or HPRF working mode of the TWT.
There is instrumented /calibrated scale range of max 400 km for detecting/tracking some incoming aircraft. Scale with numbers : 0,80,160,240,320,400 in the 'PPS' combat mode. Btw, that TWT is capable of changing the operating/working mode every 400μs ,data from the interview with Tamerlan Bekirbayev ,the main constructor of the PESA N011M Bars-M.


N011M Bars-M Režim VFP.png

Now when we talk about 'mighty' PESA N035 Irbis ,he has two TWT's .One, the main has average power in the HPRF mode of 5kW and max output pulse power in the HPRF mode of 20kW. Secondary TWT has average power of 2 kW ( in the A2A combat modes, it is used only for the lock-on and CWI modes). If we compare the N035 Irbis with the old N007 Zaslon, it is clear that theN035 Irbis has twice these ''values''.

As Yury Beliy from NIIP named after V.V Tikhomirov said in many interviews,they first used test model/prototype of the N035 Irbis with the main TWT that had only 1 kW of the average power in the HPRF mode.That test model was tested in the Su-30MK2 Bort number 503 blue during 2006/07.There is a video made inside of the Su-30MK2 503 blue during one of the flight tests of the N035 Irbis:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieLN4_tn0A

Photos of the prototype Su-30MK2 ,Bort number 503 blue with test model of the N035 Irbis.

NIIP-N035-Irbis.jpg

Su-30MK2 Bort br 503 plavi sa N035 Irbis i OLS-35.jpeg

After that ,they developed completely new TWT with the average power in the HPRF mode of 5kW. With that new main TWT ,they achieved practical result in the combat mode PPS-DO ( front hemisphere-further detection with narrow FoV of 100 square degrees ) of detecting/tracking incoming MiG-21 with the frontal RCS of 3sqm from 400kms and in the rear hemisphere of 150kms.

Although this is promote video for the N035E Irbis-E as export version of the N035 Irbis , there is some very interesting details from 3:50 ( details from the static tests).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk-cvBLHoNU


About that LPRF mode, I thought that last known LPRF radar was in fact RP-25 'Smerch-A' from the MiG-25P with max output pulse power of 600kW? If I understand well ,there is no radar today with LPRF mode for A2A combat modes? About MPRF and HPRF modes ,e.g. both of that working modes are used in combat mode called 'Avtomat' or 'Automatic' for the detecting/tracking but only one incoming/receding aircraft. MPRF only is used for the detecting/tracking receding aircraft in the ZPS(Dogon)-SNP or TWS mode and HPRF working mode is used for the detecting/tracking incoming aircraft in the PPS (Vstrechya)-SNP combat mode.Data for the old N001 Myech and N019 Rubin radars.

Btw ,I've found some data from the Russian sources that N035 Irbis has in fact three times greater detecting/tracking distances in comparison with the old N001 Myech. If this is true, then we have max 450km for the HPRF working mode or PPS combat mode, 300 km for the MPRF/HPRF combo-mode and 150km for the MPRF or ZPS combat mode.

N035 Irbis was first presented to the public on MAKS 2007 . My opinion is that this is the biggest tactical and technical advantage of the N035 Irbis over most of the radars inside of all 4 and 5 gen fighters of today ( excluding of course Su-57).Thanks to that electro-hydraulic gimbal ,reflector of the antenna can increase total FoV from 120° to 240°.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MseFZThRirc

Aleksey Egorov ,author of the ''Military acceptance'' was twice besides the N035 Irbis....

From 28:00

Su-35: a guest from the future. The fastest and the most maneuverable fighter of the Air Force​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4vYgQc7WZo&t=1698s


From 26:20

Военная приемка. Су-35С. Экстремально опасный.​


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4X21bsn0NQ&t=5s
 
Last edited:
FighterJock said:
Good job for the pilot Deino, getting the Su-34 back without any further issues.
Click to expand...

But the question is whether or not the Su-34 is a write-off or repairable? Even if it is repairable at best it will be out of action while being repaired.
 
Well the question is why did it land wheels up with the canopy open. If we can foresee that the result of some battle damages, it would point also to a failed ejection. Something with more consequences.
 
The canopy has been ejected to facilitate a quick exit because exiting through the front landing gear well/staircase wasn't possible with the wheel retracted, this is the explanation i've seen.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom