StandOff & PGM Weapons

How does UMPK CEP even related to the topic we're discussing?
Because this thread is for PGMs, where the 'P' stands for 'Precision' not 'Poorly'.
Don't see any facts backing this bold statement.
Oryx, the leading open-source intelligence and military research forum, has counted Russia having lost 24 to 26 Su-34s by the end of 2023, with four of them lost during “non-combat related incidents.”
On Feb. 29, 2024, Western reports quoted Ukrainian military officials claiming to have shot down 11 Russian planes in 11 days, including eight Su-34s, two Su-35s and an A-50 AWACS aircraft, bringing the total number of Fullbacks lost in combat at 34 units.

You will see even more such 'facts' when RoEs change.
 
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More UGM activity.

Russia inexplicably dropped another 3 bombs on its own territory, bringing its total reported self-bombings to 103 this year, opposition media says

 
Smile emoji won't make your opinion any more stronger.
How about the links detailing 11 shootdowns in 11 days in Ukraine only a few months ago. Not seeing these glide-bombings anywhere besides Kharkiv area.
BTW, CEP of GSS-munitions greatly depends on the presenсe of ECM in the area, for example. Precision or Poorly?:rolleyes:
View: https://x.com/clashreport/status/1804805237502251027
The bombs hit the already flattened rubble in front of the building, with the main building left standing. Not sure it makes the point you were intending.
 
How about the links detailing 11 shootdowns in 11 days in Ukraine only a few months ago.
You mean links like this?
View: https://x.com/DefenceU/status/1763137696065581398

This aged not very well for UA-side. Even Western public and bloggers pointed out those reports coming everyday without any proofs was nothing more than a blatant propaganda.

Not seeing these glide-bombings anywhere besides Kharkiv area.
And of course this is because of restrictions, not because of the fact that Kharkiv direction is the top priority for our forces these days.
The bombs hit the already flattened rubble in front of the building, with the main building left standing.
Nice copium you have here. 4 500kg UMPK hit the building at once, but you're sure it was a wrong building.:rolleyes:
 
This was well before the Russian Kharkiv offensive, which started on the 10th May, so Eastern means South Eastern, i.e. Luhansk probably, inside Ukraine. It's obviously nothing to do with ECM or Russian aircraft would be flying over Kyiv bombing it.
This aged not very well for UA-side. Even Western public and bloggers pointed out those reports coming everyday without any proofs was nothing more than a blatant propaganda.
Sure, sure. :D
And of course this is because of restrictions, not because of the fact that Kharkiv direction is the top priority for our forces these days.
Funny how you've been losing ground there then.
View: https://x.com/raging545/status/1804785457630191718

Nice copium you have here. 4 500kg UMPK hit the building at once, but you're sure it was a wrong building.:rolleyes:
It hit the rubble in front of the building, this is just a fact.

1719166076150.png

This is the bomb itself missing:
1719166356049.png

This is the explosion in front of the white building.
1719166002322.png
 
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@Forest Green The tight group of bombs landed one by one on the building which is the object of interest of the recon UAV recording the air-strike and still all of them have missed their target.

Damn, sir, you're breathing in Copium with full lungs. facepalm.jpg
 
@Forest Green The tight group of bombs landed one by one on the building which is the object of interest of the recon UAV recording the air-strike and still all of them have missed their target.

Damn, sir, you're breathing in Copium with full lungs. facepalm.jpg
The bombs come from behind and to the right of the long white building, they land in the rubble in front of it. The last one hits the building on the left. Watch it in slow motion, this is the first bomb missing and landing in front of the long white building, which they were all meant to hit. The second bomb lands left of it still in the rubble.

1719215147616.png
1719214886976.png
 
yeah it does, but you got to sacrifice something to put the engine and the fuel there while still keeping the same form factor of the weapons. It would not be possible otherwise. If you make the weapon bigger or longer then this will just reduce the maximum number that an aircraft can carry . And that defeat the main purpose of miniature weapon like SDB II.
For a weapon intended to attack mobile target, reduce warhead size seem to
Operators talk about target sets and what it needs to defeat. If you maintain a similar target set and lethality requirements on a powered SDB II to extend its range you cannot present SPEAR as a viable solution. So again, when a requirement emerges for extending the Stormbreaker's range, they will pay careful attention to what targets they want to defeat and at what ranges. Only in forums are SPEAR and SDB II comparable..in reality, they are built around very different requirements.
 
Operators talk about target sets and what it needs to defeat. If you maintain a similar target set and lethality requirements on a powered SDB II to extend its range you cannot present SPEAR as a viable solution. So again, when a requirement emerges for extending the Stormbreaker's range, they will pay careful attention to what targets they want to defeat and at what ranges. Only in forums are SPEAR and SDB II comparable..in reality, they are built around very different requirements.
What kind of mobile target that will survive SPEAR warhead but get destroyed by SDB II warhead?, frankly, there is none.
SDB II and SPEAR should have pretty similar if not exactly the same kind of target set for majority of missions which are: MBT , APC, IFV, SPA, MLR, SAM TEL, Radar, AAG, Trucks, FIAC. Admittedly, UK intended to use SPEAR in anti ship as well, but apart from that, it should undertake the same mission set as SDB II.
Besides, there is always trade off somewhere, you can't keep the same form factor (weight/size) of SDB II then add the engine, add the fuel while still have the same warhead size.
On manufacturer slide and DoD funding request sure there will be a lot of vague buzz words to make SDB II sound like the most unique things since the sliced bread, nothing will be comparable. In actually reality, other countries are developing similar system for their own use: SPICE-250, SPICE-250ER, SPEAR, TOLUN-IIR
 
What kind of mobile target that will survive SPEAR warhead but get destroyed by SDB II warhead?, frankly, there is none.
So you are second guessing the SDB II lethality requirement then? Can you show us your actual math and prove how the requirements were wrong?
Besides, there is always trade off somewhere, you can't keep the same form factor (weight/size) of SDB II then add the engine, add the fuel while still have the same warhead size.
Great. So you may be willing to trade away the desired target defeat capability but others who actually want a weapon like an extended range SDB-II might not. If they desire SDB-II like capability for a SDB-II like target set and warhead requirements just at greater ranges they are unlikely to chose a SPEAR like weapon. It sucks if you are oriented towards picking a solution and then looking for problem but that's not how operational requirements works. There is usually a set of requirements for which you look to design capability. SPEAR is not an extended range Stormbreaker. It may be perfectly valid for other (and its intended) targets but that's not the point here. Customer gets a choice. And the USAF/N wanted an all weather attack weapon with a dual band data link and lethality and accuracy against a desired target sets across a very large launch and target criteria (hence the very large test program).

BTW, I haven't been keeping up with the Spear 3 program. Can you refresh my memory on how many operational test shots they've conducted on that flight test program?
 
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So you are second guessing the SDB II lethality requirement then? Can you show us your actual math and prove how the requirements were wrong?
When did I ever said the requirement were wrong? Don’t put word into my mouth like that, it very disingenuous.
Besides, since you claim SPEAR, and SDB II have vastly different target set, why don’t you provide their respective targets set. Better yet, since you mentioned maths, why don’t you show us actual maths and prove how a specific kind of mobile target will easily survive SPEAR warhead yet get destroyed easily with SDB II warhead?.

Great. So you may be willing to trade away the desired target defeat capability but others who actually want a weapon like an extended range SDB-II might not. If they desire SDB-II like capability for a SDB-II like target set and warhead requirements just at greater ranges they are unlikely to chose a SPEAR like weapon. It sucks if you are oriented towards picking a solution and then looking for problem but that's not how operational requirements works. There is usually a set of requirements for which you look to design capability. SPEAR is not an extended range Stormbreaker. It may be perfectly valid for other (and its intended) targets but that's not the point here.
Well we don’t live in magical fairy land where we can just add fuel, engine into the SDB II without make sacrifice somewhere else, if you don’t want to reduce the warhead size then inevitably the missile size will increase, . You might be willing to trade away the aircraft payload and saturation effect but other who desire SDB-II like capability for a SDB-II like target set at great range might not. So frankly, you are back at square one, there is no perfect design without trade off.
You are also assumming that I picked Spear then trying to fit the requirement of SDB II around it, but that not what I did. @NMaude asked if “a turbojet powered version of the SDB-II will be developed”, I simply see the target set of SDB II which are MBT , APC, IFV, SPA, MLR, SAM TEL, Radar, AAG, Trucks, FIAC. Then I see the design purpose of SDB II: Moving target/increase aircraft payload/ multimode seeker to reduce adverse weather and jamming effect. Based on all that, SPEAR fit the bill as powered SDB II.
Not to mention the obvious fact that Raytheon literally considered offering powered SDB II as a candidate for UK missile program where it compete directly against MBDA SPEAR.


BTW, I haven't been keeping up with the Spear 3 program. Can you refresh my memory on how many operational test shots they've conducted on that flight test program?
And how is this relevant to what being discussed?
 
When did I ever said the requirement were wrong? Don’t put word into my mouth like that, it very disingenuous.
You claimed that SPEAR can defeat same target set. Which would imply, that the SDB II carries a warhead that is not optimized for its targets and is rather paying a penalty. Or it implies that it lacks the accuracy thus has to compensate with a larger warhead. Either way, the burden to prove that is on you. Why is the USAF and USN making Raytheon use a larger warhead when they could have cleared not demanded that and RTX optimzied around a smaller warhead to save weight and get other benefits?
ell we don’t live in magical fairy land where we can just add fuel, engine into the SDB II without make sacrifice somewhere else, if you don’t want to reduce the warhead size then inevitably the missile size will increase, .
Looks like you are simply assuming that someone would want range and is willing to trade away significant portions of its other requirements. That's literally cherry picking. I'm saying, that an extended range SDB II requirement might not do so as easily as you are implying. I understand the trade offs involved. But its not just as simple s shedding a requirement here and adding another there. At some point, if the need for something like that changes so significantly then a clean sheet design may well be the preferred path to take as opposed to trying to jam propulsion into the Stormbreaker.

Not to mention the obvious fact that Raytheon literally considered offering powered SDB II as a candidate for UK missile program where it compete directly against MBDA SPEAR.
Great. How far did that go? Nowhere. It is actually easier for RTX to design to different requirements, shed its WH and add propulsion to meet a foreign requirement. Its obviously much harder for them to respond to a US service need to extend the range of its Stormbreaker while retaining other desired attributes. And yes, I understand the trade offs. US might not want as dramatic a range increase because it prefers to retain the WH and guidance performance and other attributes. Or opposite, they may specify a very different target set, higher range, and a very different navigation and terminal targeting requirement. Even then, adapting the stormbreaker might not be the best approach to that need/.
And how is this relevant to what being discussed?
Right. So I assume it still hasn't started developmental flight testing?
 
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Crud, I was assuming that a powered SDB2 would be twice the length more or less. So instead of 4x per volume you're only getting 2x.
 
You claimed that SPEAR can defeat same target set. Which would imply, that the SDB II carries a warhead that is not optimized for its targets and is rather paying a penalty. Or it implies that it lacks the accuracy thus has to compensate with a larger warhead. Either way, the burden to prove that is on you. Why is the USAF and USN making Raytheon use a larger warhead when they could have cleared not demanded that and RTX optimzied around a smaller warhead to save weight and get other benefits?
SDB II were developed after SDB I with the goal to give fighter aircraft capability to engage moving target at extended distance, under all weather condition while still able to fit 4 of them under BRU-61, and of course the weapon need multi mode seeker and datalink. That were the requirements, I'm not aware of any requirement for SDB II regarding warhead size. If you have any source specified that USN and USAF make requirement for Raytheon to use warhead of a certain weight class for SDB II then feel free to post it.
Besides, manufacturer doesn't aim to make the best weapon possible, they aim to match the requirement then make profit. May be Raytheon could have used a smaller warhead and put improvement on other place such as putting an engine on SDB II, but why should they? especially if the initial requirement didn't demand it?. Engine are expensive, so adding one either make your weapon more expensive and harder to sell or if you intended to sell at the same price then it reduce your profit margin. Or may be they could have used smaller warhead to simply make the weapon smaller. But again, there is no point if the original requirement didn't demand it. And a smaller warhead doing the same job might be more complex to design/manufacture and therefore more expensive. You are assuming that the way any weapon manufacturer design their weapon is the only way to match the MoD requirements, it is not, otherwise all weapons we have would look the same. Even with the same requirements, different manufacturer could come up with different design as there's more than one way to skin a cat.
You claimed SDB II and SPEAR have different target set and due to the different in warhead size, SPEAR won't be able to destroy the intended target of SDB II. But I have yet to see you provide the "target set list for SDB II" and "target set list for SPEAR" to make a comparison. Surely, if they are indeed have very different target set, then it wouldn't be hard to give the example.


Looks like you are simply assuming that someone would want range and is willing to trade away significant portions of its other requirements. That's literally cherry picking. I'm saying, that an extended range SDB II requirement might not do so as easily as you are implying. I understand the trade offs involved. But its not just as simple s shedding a requirement here and adding another there. At some point, if the need for something like that changes so significantly then a clean sheet design may well be the preferred path to take as opposed to trying to jam propulsion into the Stormbreaker.
From my point of view, you are cherry picking the warhead part. There are always trade off involved, for something like SDB II you either have smaller warhead or have bigger missile if you want to add the engine and fuel. Based on the intended purpose of weapons likeSDB II then sacrifice warhead weight is the most likely option compared to having bigger missile.
Sure, you could have come up with a clean sheet design, but even if we assuming that clean design can satisfy all requirement without any drawback, it would cost more to develop, take more time to do all testing from start, take more time for weapon integration, it may not even work. And even then buyer likely buying an upgrade of something that proven rather than a clean sheet one. So logically, Raytheon just more likely tried to make upgrade on their SDB II instead of coming up with new clean design.


Great. How far did that go? Nowhere.It is actually easier for RTX to design to different requirements, shed its WH and add propulsion to meet a foreign requirement. Its obviously much harder for them to respond to a US service need to extend the range of its Stormbreaker while retaining other desired attributes. And yes, I understand the trade offs. US might not want as dramatic a range increase because it prefers to retain the WH and guidance performance and other attributes. Or opposite, they may specify a very different target set, higher range, and a very different navigation and terminal targeting requirement. Even then, adapting the stormbreaker might not be the best approach to that need/.
Raytheon proposal for powered SDB II go no where because it lose to SPEAR, but that does show the two missile is similar enough that Raytheon would think it is a viable candidate. US have not put out any request for powered SDB II yet, so you can't know if in that hypothetical situation they will want to extend the range of SDB II while keeping everything else exactly the same. As of now, the closest link between SPEAR and a hypothetical powered SDB II would be the UK selective precision effects at range capability 3 program

Right. So I assume it still hasn't started developmental flight testing?
Test launch done in 2016
A UK Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft has successfully fired a SPEAR air-to-surface precision strike weapon for the first time in a flight trial conducted from BAE Systems’ site in Warton, Lancashire.

The MBDA SPEAR networked precision strike weapon was launched from Eurofighter Typhoon Production Aircraft BS116 earlier this year. The test flight was led by teams from MBDA and BAE Systems, with BAE Systems Chief Test Pilot Steve Formoso at the controls.

Following the launch, which took place at the UK Ministry of Defence’s Aberporth range, in Wales, the weapon transitioned to powered flight and completed a series of manoeuvres before reaching its pre-planned point of impact.
 
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Weighing 140 kilograms (308 pounds) and with a range of over 200 kilometers (124 miles), IAI says the missile can be launched from various aerial platforms such as helicopters or warplanes. The system includes laser-homing seekers and electro-optics for day or night operations. It also has automatic target recognition built in.
IAI also said that the system includes “enhanced connectivity features [that] enable real-time video transmission, person-in-the-loop control, and low altitude hold throughout the mission. Additionally, its selectable fast/slow/fast speed profile allows for high-speed reactions and selective slow velocity approaches at points of interest.”
IAI said the munition’s warhead, “which exceeds” 20 kilograms or 44 pounds, “is adaptable for blast, fragmentation, and penetration effects.”
 
SDB II were developed after SDB I with the goal to give fighter aircraft capability to engage moving target at extended distance, under all weather condition while still able to fit 4 of them under BRU-61, and of course the weapon need multi mode seeker and datalink. That were the requirements, I'm not aware of any requirement for SDB II regarding warhead size. If you have any source specified that USN and USAF make requirement for Raytheon to use warhead of a certain weight class for SDB II then feel free to post it.
So if I don't post here, and you can't find and read up on it, then it must mean that OE's were able to chose whatever they wanted and the trade space was anywhere between 7 kg to 40+ kg for WH size? Are we just going to pretend ignorance on actual operational requirements and how those are reflected in the end product?
Besides, manufacturer doesn't aim to make the best weapon possible, they aim to match the requirement then make profit. May be Raytheon could have used a smaller warhead and put improvement on other place such as putting an engine on SDB II, but why should they? especially if the initial requirement didn't demand it?.

OE's make to service requirements. Lethality and target sets for munitions is right up there in terms of what the operator requires of any munition. SDB II had a defined target set/lethality requirement, defined all weather performance, defined communication and networking needs, and fairly well defined operational concept under degraded GPS conditions. All of those things moved the OE towards certain design decisions. There are certain US and foreign OE's who claim "GPS denied" performance with a single mode seeker that I know would not be able to stand a chance of demonstrating to SDB II requirements for the same but that's a different matter that is probably not best discussed here..

Just because they released or you saw a highly abbreviated publicly released requirements document doesn't mean that a more extensive one wasn't shared with industry partners developing their proposals for a material solution.

Raytheon proposal for powered SDB II go no where because it lose to SPEAR, but that does show the two missile is similar enough that Raytheon would think it is a viable candidate.
It only goes to show that the Stormbreaker can be modified to something that is very different from a SDB II if the requirements were different. Raytheon as the foreign OE is obviously going to look to modify whatever it had in its portfolio against a domestic solution that is a clean sheet design. We see that lower-risk design proposal in competitions all the time. That says nothing of the point I'm making in that a SPEAR 3 is not a candidate for an extended range SDB II. And frankly, neither is using a smaller WH on SDB II and adding propulsion. Not unless other requirements are changed.
est launch done in 2016
A UK Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft has successfully fired a SPEAR air-to-surface precision strike weapon for the first time in a flight trial conducted from BAE Systems’ site in Warton, Lancashire.
That was not a developmental test shot. It was more of a proof of concept. I don't think they've actually launched a guided AUR yet though I can be wrong. Plan was to do it in 2022 which was delayed to 2023 but I haven't kept up with the program so perhaps they did their first shot last year..or perhaps they did not. Either way they are long ways away from a completed DT or OT program.


And even then buyer likely buying an upgrade of something that proven rather than a clean sheet one. So logically, Raytheon just more likely tried to make upgrade on their SDB II instead of coming up with new clean design.
Yes and no. The point I'm making is not controversial. If the USAF wants an extended range SDB II as in, they want more range from the weapon while keeping it close or matching the SDB II requirements then the approach RTX takes might be a lot different from what it tried on Spear 3. And obviously they might not be looking for the type of range or ToF of the Spear 3 solution. OTOH, if the USAF/N wants a longer range quad packable weapon with extended range and a much different lethality requirement then something like Spear 3 could be in play. I have not heard of them looking into it. I have heard the armament directorate 1) looking to possible increase range of SDB 1 and SDB 2 in the future and 2) looking to add a very low cost IIR or MMW seeker on SDB class munitions for a lower cost munition option..and obviously other longer ranged smaller (dual-packed) weapons that outrange Spear but are about twice its size.
 
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Saw this the other day...and wondered, particularly given the helicopter launch, slow speed mentioned (and 'fast') and the shrouded nature of the propulsion....is it powered by a ducted fan? They make no mention of propulsion at all, but also highlight low cost.

 
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Saw this the other day...and wondered, particularly given the helicopter launch, slow speed mentioned (and 'fast') and the shrouded nature of the propulsion....is it powered by a ducted fan? They make no mention of propulsion at all, but also highlight low cost.

The small wing also reminds me of the oblique wing cruise missile designs. That wing style could help with the different speed profiles too I'd imagine.
 
Quicksink on the B-2?!!!

My God, that´s a sinister perspective of thousands of young ensign deaths per day (PLAN and affiliates).

Just to remind all, the odds of surviving a hit on something <10000t are low.

iu
 
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I would think that free fall ordnance would not be that challenging for point defense guns, but most of the PLAN landing fleet would not be so equip.
 
It´s a B-2, a stealth bomber. You don´t know it´s here. You don´t know bombs are raining on you. Most of your crew is at rest, below deck (with that range, you can´t keep a crew on alert 24/7).
It´s an horrible death you can´t do anything.
 
It´s a B-2, a stealth bomber. You don´t know it´s here. You don´t know bombs are raining on you. Most of your crew is at rest, below deck (with that range, you can´t keep a crew on alert 24/7).
It´s an horrible death you can´t do anything.

Presumably the bombs themselves have a radar signature, if anyone was paying attention.
 
A supersonic free falling guided bomb with a low profile and, probably an attack geometry that includes hieratic evasive maneuvers... I see you are an optimistic but Good luck ;)
 
A supersonic free falling guided bomb with a low profile and, probably an attack geometry that includes hieratic evasive maneuvers... I see you are an optimistic but Good luck ;)

Not sure why it would be supersonic? Though the engagement geometry might be challenging…if the release position is too vertical, it might decend at an angle too steep for some gun systems to engage (Phalax Blk 1B was redesigned to give the system more elevation) or potentially fall outside (or rather inside?) the arc of the air defense radars. Not sure if most ships have anything emitting near vertically. A datalinked air picture from another ship might be workable.

EDIT: probably also rather questionable that even a B-2 could get within JDAM range of a warship with a dedicated air search radar.
 
Not sure why it would be supersonic?
Dropped from over 20kft the bombs should break mach 1. Same theory as the WW2 blockbuster bombs. And B2s are probably cruising at 45k, so whatever the terminal velocity is for a JDAM they're going to reach it.


Though the engagement geometry might be challenging…if the release position is too vertical, it might decend at an angle too steep for some gun systems to engage (Phalax Blk 1B was redesigned to give the system more elevation) or potentially fall outside (or rather inside?) the arc of the air defense radars. Not sure if most ships have anything emitting near vertically. A datalinked air picture from another ship might be workable.
Get an 80+ degree drop angle and it should not be engageable by most CIWS.

And then the bomb splashes about 10m from the edge of the deck before detonating at ~100ft. Keel cracker.


EDIT: probably also rather questionable that even a B-2 could get within JDAM range of a warship with a dedicated air search radar.
I dunno, aren't most air search radars S band? Pretty sure the B2 still rates as VLO against S band. It's the long wavelength radars like a C band that have the best chance, and I believe the B2 was designed to be VLO against them as well.
 
(1)b-2 isn't invisible, even if aspect-wise it's (still) unmatched. Don't want to eyeball it, but general understanding is that it's well above known minimum values for tactical aircraft.
It's a big airframe in the end(and not exactly the most fresh iteration of LO, wait for b-21), and shipborne fire control radars (mostly very modern in chinese case) are quite powerful.
(2)Kind reminder that all main PLAN AD combatants carry VHF search radars. You can guess against whom.

Don't know what these crocodile tears are for. It's a logical step and a good weapon, but making a one-trick game-changer(lol) out of it is weird.
 
A supersonic free falling guided bomb with a low profile and, probably an attack geometry that includes hieratic evasive maneuvers... I see you are an optimistic but Good luck ;)

Dropped from over 20kft the bombs should break mach 1. Same theory as the WW2 blockbuster bombs. And B2s are probably cruising at 45k, so whatever the terminal velocity is for a JDAM they're going to reach it.

Get an 80+ degree drop angle and it should not be engageable by most CIWS.

Bear in mind that JDAM and relatives are limited glide bombs, which is how they achieve standoff (strakes and body lift). They are not going to free-fall at near vertical angles like a WW2 block buster, more like about a 2:1 glide ratio (15nm from 45kft). JDAM can be supersonic, when released by a supersonic aircraft like the F-22, but it's not clear it stays supersonic for long after a supersonic release or that it will accelerate to supersonic speeds after a subsonic release.
 
Don't know what these crocodile tears are for. It's a logical step and a good weapon, but making a one-trick game-changer(lol) out of it is weird.
~450kg of explosive under the keel is a very different weapon than 450kg of explosive as a shaped charge or semi-armor-piercing.

One of those is a hard kill of anything military under 10k tons, and a hard kill of anything not built to military standards. Up to, including, and beyond 100kton very large container ships.

It's not a particularly fancy weapon, but it is nastier than you seem to be giving it credit for.



Bear in mind that JDAM and relatives are limited glide bombs, which is how they achieve standoff (strakes and body lift). They are not going to free-fall at near vertical angles like a WW2 block buster, more like about a 2:1 glide ratio (15nm from 45kft). JDAM can be supersonic, when released by a supersonic aircraft like the F-22, but it's not clear it stays supersonic for long after a supersonic release or that it will accelerate to supersonic speeds after a subsonic release.
I'm actually assuming a more limited maneuvering to get a good drop angle fairly quickly, kinda the opposite of how the bomb usually flies. Using the strakes and body lift to reduce the distance traveled after drop, or an odd combination of the two. Limited gliding if released at 45k, and then a dive onto the target, call it a range of maybe 7-10nmi.
 
So if I don't post here, and you can't find and read up on it, then it must mean that OE's were able to chose whatever they wanted and the trade space was anywhere between 7 kg to 40+ kg for WH size? Are we just going to pretend ignorance on actual operational requirements and how those are reflected in the end product?
OE's make to service requirements. Lethality and target sets for munitions is right up there in terms of what the operator requires of any munition. SDB II had a defined target set/lethality requirement,
Well, yes if it is not explicitly mentioned in the requirement about a specific warhead weight then yes, it is up to the weapon manufacturer to design, as long as they can still match other requirements in the list.
You are acting like there is only one specific solution for each list of requirement while that clearly not the case at all.
Lockheed Martin MAKO and Northrop Grumman AARGM-ER were competing against each other for SIAW program, they clearly don't have the same size or speed.
For the Navy over-the-horizon, anti-surface missile program for LCS, we have NSM from Kongsberg competing against Harpoon block II from Boeing and LRASM from Lockheed Martin. Given that NSM has 260 lbs warhead, Harpoon has 500 lbs warhead and LRASM literally have 1000 lbs warhead, their warhead aren't even in the same class, yet it still fine and they still compete in the program because they satisfied other requirements.
And yes sure, SDB II has a defined targets, just like SPEAR is, you still haven't been able to provide the targets set of either let alone proving that there are a massive different between their target set.
Lethality is also pretty vague word without additional information it could mean just about anything. Is GBU-12 lethal to a tank? sure. Is GBU-24 lethal to a tank? sure. Is Brimstone lethal to a tank? sure. But without additional context, it really doesn't say anything. As a matter of fact, we don't even know the exact weight of SPEAR warhead.

Just because they released or you saw a highly abbreviated publicly released requirements document doesn't mean that a more extensive one wasn't shared with industry partners developing their proposals for a material solution.
Yes, may be a more extensive requirement exist, may be they don't. May be in that extensive requirement list, there is specific requirement about warhead weight, may be even in that extensive list there is no mention of warhead weight at all. May be SPEAR warhead is designed to have much better destructive power maybe...etc...etc. There is no point bring up something that you literally have no way of providing evidence for it.

It only goes to show that the Stormbreaker can be modified to something that is very different from a SDB II if the requirements were different. Raytheon as the foreign OE is obviously going to look to modify whatever it had in its portfolio against a domestic solution that is a clean sheet design. We see that lower-risk design proposal in competitions all the time. That says nothing of the point I'm making in that a SPEAR 3 is not a candidate for an extended range SDB II. And frankly, neither is using a smaller WH on SDB II and adding propulsion. Not unless other requirements are changed.
Yes and no. The point I'm making is not controversial. If the USAF wants an extended range SDB II as in, they want more range from the weapon while keeping it close or matching the SDB II requirements then the approach RTX takes might be a lot different from what it tried on Spear 3. And obviously they might not be looking for the type of range or ToF of the Spear 3 solution.
My point is that there is no powered SDB II in production, the only time where a plan for it pop up is when Raytheon intended to compete against MBDA SPEAR in UK selective precision effects at range capability 3 program. That should indicate the similarity between SPEAR and a hypothetical powered SDB II. There is also nothing indicate that the target set of SDB II and SPEAR are massively different except that SPEAR is also used for anti ship.
If US want an extended range SDB II, may be they would held a competition with requirement similar to UK selective precision effects at range capability 3, or may be the requirement would be different, there is literally no way to say for sure.
 
I'm actually assuming a more limited maneuvering to get a good drop angle fairly quickly, kinda the opposite of how the bomb usually flies. Using the strakes and body lift to reduce the distance traveled after drop, or an odd combination of the two. Limited gliding if released at 45k, and then a dive onto the target, call it a range of maybe 7-10nmi.

Ok, seems like I needed some more research time. Came across an interesting NPS paper about a study of JDAM as a shallow-water mine clearing weapon, but the basics of underwater performance won't be much different (the round-nosed Quicksink seeker probably acts mostly like the blunt nosecap in these tests.) So yes, they can and do shape the trajectory for near vertical arrival, even after some standoff glide. Probably not supersonic from a Mach 0.8 release but near vertical anyway.

The fun bit is that the tail fins are almost certainly coming off as they bounce against the sides of the cavitation channel once the bomb enters the water and starts to pitch. You probably need a slight angle on impact to make sure the underwater trajectory continues toward the target instead of some other random direction.

 
~450kg of explosive under the keel is a very different weapon than 450kg of explosive as a shaped charge or semi-armor-piercing.

One of those is a hard kill of anything military under 10k tons, and a hard kill of anything not built to military standards. Up to, including, and beyond 100kton very large container ships.

It's not a particularly fancy weapon, but it is nastier than you seem to be giving it credit for.
Ascms can be made to throw their warhead under the keel to, in fact it's ironically easier than actually hitting the ship.
Also, WW2 experience on superiority of under keel explosions against targets without developed TPS is at best controversial.

The point of irony is not damage, though, it's expectation to bomb operational warships from b-2 from high altitudes, especially in key operations(say, invasion convoys).

The only thing you'll achieve this way is you'll lose the b-2 fleet.
Stealth for strategic bomber is for different things, especially Reagan era stealth. Geometry may still be solid, but construction techniques and RAMs changed a whole lot since then.

It's a very useful tool to attack something without personal destroyer and/or air screen, of course - especially bigger civilian ships(which houthis outright struggle to sink even when hit, as we see; I saw anecdotal evidence that Russian navy regrets moving away from oversized ascms and torpedoes for this reason - warheads matter for modern mass-produced trade giants).

But thousands of sleeping plan ensigns is out of touch with westpac realities. Warhead isn't the question here, the question is that PLAN is so young, large, and quite heavily invested into detecting things. And their electronic industry is more than capable to support that.
 
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