sa_bushwar said:
Abraham,

Agree with your arguments, just wondered of any artillery development took place. The SADF was better off with a strategic nuke deterrent, as opposed to tactical nukes. However there is some evidence work on miniaturized implosion devises did take place - see extract from AL Venter's book below. Being able to lob a nuclear device a few 1000km with an RSA 3 to let's say Luanda during a last stand in a possible Cold War conflict was much more of a deterrent than what a tactical nuke delivered by artillery shell would have been.

Did the SA nukes ever serve as any real deterrent, as (virtually) nobody knew about their existence?! Some foreign spy agencies might have known - double-flash in South Atlantic, links with Israel, etc. I suppose the SA Government would have pulled this trick out of the hat if the war unfolded in a different way, or if hardliners in Government wanted to preserve the apartheid regime for longer. Apparently the Buccaneer on display at the Military Museum in JHB was already specifically overhauled (and modified?) to carry the nukes.

SA's nuclear programme was based on secrecy and denials so as to keep inquisitiveness away.
Reading about it in "Those who had the Power" by Pierre Victor and Nic Badenhorst, the policy seems to have been one of silence, to ensure a minimum of external political pressure, inspection, and to maintain a level of secrecy about developments, deployments, etc. One of the authors worked on some of the platforms with Armscor, and his book was absolutely shredded by the powers-that-be, basically leading him to rewriting the entire thing. Even though it dealt with stuff that had happened 2 decades and more earlier.

It seems this silence re the nukes was to be rigorously adhered to, and only in a situation of dire emergency, such as an external force trying to invade, or openly support an invasion, or bomb, would the cat be let out of the bag behind the scenes to the relevant parties to ensure any such action promptly stopped.
The development of a true ICBM was pursued so that any capital on earth could be eventually reached as part of that strategy for just that reason.

On the matter of the actual nukes constructed, the book explains that the initial gun-type devices were just that: Initial types deliverable by air via a platform such as a Buccaneer.
There was a tacit acknowledgement of the pitfalls of such a delivery method.
This is why a range of other delivery methods and platforms were being developed, and hand in hand with those was the next phase, which was the minituarisation (compared to the initial nukes) of the follow on nuclear warheads that would equip those delivery platforms. SA's deterrent was not going to be based solely on a dwindling number of a 1950's aircraft design, obviously. The end game was to be a relatively small amount of nukes compared to larger powers, but able to be delivered by a variety of platforms to ensure survivabilty.
Many of the platforms themselves that were to come online would not have been able to carry the initial devices. The book illustrates, via a lot of peripheral evidence, that such warheads were in the process of being designed, which is supported by the infrastructure expensively put in place.
The official story of only a few primitive gun type warheads only, whilst not an actual lie, omits the entire story of the follow on programme after those initial devices.

I doubt we'll get anything like the true story anytime.
 
The SA government had the stance of secrecy as their official position.

It is all spelled out in Dr. Nic von Wielligh's book


The policy that was adopted was based on 3 phases:

Phase 1 : Strategic uncertainty. The same as that of Israel , nuclear weapons not denied nor acknowledged.
Phase 2 : Covert acknowledgement to some of the international big players if SA sovereignty is under threat.
Phase 3 : If the threat is not neutralized by phase 2 , the nuclear program will be exposed voluntarily , either through acknowledgement or test.



The fact that they went with the Uranium route was the logical choice. It is relatively easy , insofar as theoretically you do not even need a reactor. Enrichment via a cascade method is what you need and this is what they did. Going down the Pu route would have been much more expensive. For Pu you need to reprocess reactor Uranium waste and the recoverable Pu in that is less than 1%.

To produce bigger amounts you would have to build a much bigger reactor than the Safari-1 that was available. Even better would have been a Breeder reactor , and once you have one of those , it shows intent and the secrecy policy would be junk.

With that you would have to work the time concerns into it , and during the 80's and 90's the world was changing very fast.
 
Dinges said:
The SA government had the stance of secrecy as their official position.

It is all spelled out in Dr. Nic von Wielligh's book


The policy that was adopted was based on 3 phases:

Phase 1 : Strategic uncertainty. The same as that of Israel , nuclear weapons not denied nor acknowledged.
Phase 2 : Covert acknowledgement to some of the international big players if SA sovereignty is under threat.
Phase 3 : If the threat is not neutralized by phase 2 , the nuclear program will be exposed voluntarily , either through acknowledgement or test.



The fact that they went with the Uranium route was the logical choice. It is relatively easy , insofar as theoretically you do not even need a reactor. Enrichment via a cascade method is what you need and this is what they did. Going down the Pu route would have been much more expensive. For Pu you need to reprocess reactor Uranium waste and the recoverable Pu in that is less than 1%.

To produce bigger amounts you would have to build a much bigger reactor than the Safari-1 that was available. Even better would have been a Breeder reactor , and once you have one of those , it shows intent and the secrecy policy would be junk.

With that you would have to work the time concerns into it , and during the 80's and 90's the world was changing very fast.

Nic von Wielligh is giving a talk on this subject at NG Valleisig in Pretoria at the end of March- date to be confirmed - I'm sure it will be quite interesting to hear. Will post when I've got a definitive date.
 
between all the books i have , uranium road, Nicks book, Ajs book, Pieres book and some others like Mandelas nuke nightmare etc nothing new has emerged that sheds much detail on anything. vague references are made (excerpt in Pieres book as he is an artist and had proposed TEL drawing not actual pics) so one can assume that its all regurgitated info. Mandelas nuclear nightmare from many years ago has more rumours (TEL's stored in horizontal tunnels in the Transvaal if i remember correctly, and also talks about Silos at Langebaan AFB, and a place called Rooi Lig where the nukes were kept) but nothing concrete.

We all understand the nuclear strategy and Nics book is best and describing the straggly and implementation at a higher level but is light on details about technology and delivery methods.
 
Lol. Remember the Red Mercury books? The absurd rumors in that was actually hilarious.
You just had to read the stories he was told by some ex army characters - to know that a lot of Brandy and Cola was involved.

I don't think we'll ever really find out how far we got. Same as our naval projects - most of the Non-Disclosure Agreements for the Submarine and Frigate projects have expired by now, but no-one is talking.
 
Apparently top secret documents has to be 25 years old before declassification is considered. Say: 1990+25=2015. However, I have seen declassified top secret military documents of a lessor age, such as Ops Modular, Hooper, Packer stuff being declassified before 25 years. Suppose it depends on the sensitivity. How much of the paper trail on the nuclear program evaded the shredders is not known.
 
Off f/b:

"SAPS POLICE MUSEUM:VENTERSBURG: FREESTATE PROVINCE: This shortwheel base 3 window Casspir must be one of the earlier prototypes."
 

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sa_bushwar said:
Herman said:
Reply to post #1465
I have Whitworth's book. As you mention, it is a very interesting piece of work which casts interesting light on the state of SA's artillery during the seventies, at the start of the Angolan War, the casting about for an effective answer to Angolan/Cuban artillery superiority, the acquisition of the G4 guns and the development of the G5 and G6 systems. The nuclear program and the "Moerse Lorrie Zonder Naam" are also discussed.

What is the state of LZN in the above pictures? Is it just rotting away, is it used for general transport duties or is it for sale?

Think it is for sale as it is next to the large workshop shed where the other "For Sale" vehicles are displayed. It seldom moves and is not used on the premises for transport work as far as I can see. Maybe contact them and make an offer?!

http://www.n4trucks.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=21&lang=en

Had a closer look at the LZN this weekend....
 

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sa_bushwar said:
sa_bushwar said:
Herman said:
Reply to post #1465
I have Whitworth's book. As you mention, it is a very interesting piece of work which casts interesting light on the state of SA's artillery during the seventies, at the start of the Angolan War, the casting about for an effective answer to Angolan/Cuban artillery superiority, the acquisition of the G4 guns and the development of the G5 and G6 systems. The nuclear program and the "Moerse Lorrie Zonder Naam" are also discussed.

What is the state of LZN in the above pictures? Is it just rotting away, is it used for general transport duties or is it for sale?

Think it is for sale as it is next to the large workshop shed where the other "For Sale" vehicles are displayed. It seldom moves and is not used on the premises for transport work as far as I can see. Maybe contact them and make an offer?!

http://www.n4trucks.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=19&Itemid=21&lang=en

Had a closer look at the LZN this weekend....

Some more...
 

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Thank you for posting sa_bushwar,

absolutely stunning engineering.
Probably wouldn't fit on any craft short a C-5, but if you want move logistics move logistics.
 
Nice pics sa_bushwar!

*off fb again:
 

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sa_bushwar said:
Had a closer look at the LZN this weekend....

Awesome photos SA_BW. Great to see the Elzeden up close. Check out those leaf springs on the suspension and only 5250 klicks on the Odo!

Now we just need to get George Miller interested in a restoration so the Elzeden can star in "Mad Max V: The Return of the Doofwarrior"!
 
Seen at the keepers of the LZN, a new ride destined for a foreign royalty.
 

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What a pity that such a unique vehicle just seems to be rotting away. Surely one of the public or private museums in SA can acquire it and restore it?
 
Its incredible how far South African design has come - if you look at that prototype Casspir and compare it with this.
 
Rhodesian prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

On a different but related note:
Would there be an interest in posting pictures of the Rhodesian vehicles and discussing them?
 
Off fb:

"CASSPIR NG2000A IED Investigative Vehicle equipped with a Hydraulic Arm suiable to fit various attachments and a double water disruptor system"
 

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Off fb:

"CASSPIR NG2000 Widebody Ambulance"
 

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Off fb:

"CASSPIR NG2000B Widebody Cargo support variant"
 

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Off fb:

Conceptually similar to the Tapir.

"CASSPIR NG2000B Widebdy weapons/ Recce support vehicle. The design allow for a multi use application by either as a small indipendant Recce vehicle, or as a weapons support platform to be equipped with moduls that can include, Indirect weapns like Mortars, ATK weapons module like 106 Recoilless, Anti-Aircraft system like ZSU 23 twin barrel, or Plofadder or Mobile Mine Breaching, two magazines, or MRL 24 tube similar that was fitted on the UNIMOG Visarend and replaced by Batteleur"
 

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Off fb:

"CASSPIR NG2000B Widebody Water Tanker variant, equipped with aux pump, capacity water 8000L maximum"
 

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Off fb:

"CASSPIR NG2000B Widebody Fuel Carrier, equipped with two fuel dispensing pumps and a max fuel bulk carry capacity of 8000L"
 

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Off fb:

"CASSPIR NG2000B Widebody Command variant, going through its paces during the mobility test and acceptance phase at GEROTEK South Africa International vehicle accredited test facility."
 

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Off fb:

Any ideas?
 

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No idea.
I first thought it might have been related to one of the Project Remark vehicles, in particular the Ignis Remark 33, but looking at that vehicle, there is no family resemblance at all, apart from some extremely superficial angles that trick the eye.
Although it has firing ports, the vehicle, in particular the front, does not seem as robustly constructed as one would expect from an Army vehicle, so I wonder whether this wasn't aimed at the Police, or even some of the security teams on the mines?

It sometimes isn't appreciated how massive some of South African mines are, and were back in the day, in terms of the size of the labour force.
I recall over 3000 miners in just one mine (Elandskraal?) being temporarily trapped under ground, but in no danger, due to a compressed air pipe being damaged. Mponeng mine has a morning shift going down of over 4000.
A cheaper version of the Ingwe was for example built and sold to some of the mining companies for security.
 
Long nose with large overhang in front on the new CASSPIR. Virtually all moder large diesels, up to about 14 liters capacity and over 600hp, are inline six cylinder models. This makes for a high and long nose. A V6 or V8 design would be more suitable to keep the nose short and low.

The air-cooled Deutz engines used in the SA SAMIL vehicles were particularly compact, although they delivered much less power per liter capacity than modern engines.
 
curious george said:
Off fb:

Any ideas?

A buddy of mine has a couple of these. They were made for the private security market and is based on a Unimog. So they are LHD. I have sent him a message for more info.
 
The proliferation of wheeled armoured vehicles in SA is astonishing. It seems that everybody with a hammer and a welding torch in his garage cobbles up another variant every now and then.....!
 
Herman said:
The proliferation of wheeled armoured vehicles in SA is astonishing. It seems that everybody with a hammer and a welding torch in his garage cobbles up another variant every now and then.....!

We are talking of a period spanning the mid 70's to 2016 tho,a 40 year's worth!
 
curious george said:
Off f/b:

"SAPS POLICE MUSEUM:VENTERSBURG: FREESTATE PROVINCE: This shortwheel base 3 window Casspir must be one of the earlier prototypes."

Yes, it is. it`s Casspir Dumpy.
 
Buffel prototype with 2-seater cab joined with load body
 

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