South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

Very nice find.

That is the Kiewiet prototype.

2 vehicles were presented to the SA Army for evaluation during 1981/2 against the requirements of Project Sireb.
This was a project looking at a Buffel replacement.
The vehicle was developed by Armscor and was based on a SAMIL-20 chassis.
This Kiewiet was one of them.

The other was the Wildebees 1, a far more advanced vehicle using a monocoque design, but with SAMIL-20 components.

These two vehicles then morphed into Project Sireb, which saw developments of the Kiewiet and Wildebees vehicles, labelled the Mark 2 in both instances, put forward. The Bulldog APC was the third vehicle trialled in Project Sireb.
The only pic I've seen of Kiewiet 2, the follow up to this vehicle, showed that it had a longer chassis, and a different front, being longer and differently shaped.
I think Project Sireb was then replaced with Project Remark a year or 2 later, which saw different, more developed and advanced vehicles tendered.

 

[kaiserbill]

Paramount just the other day unveiled their Mbombe 8.
This complements their 4x4, and 6x6 Mbombe vehicle range. The vehicle range incorporates flat bottom mine protection technology, and shares 80% parts commonality across the family. The vehicle on display showed a 57mm cannon version, with other turret options available. It looks as if Kazakhstan will probably build it under licence, like they do with other Paramount vehicles.

 

[panzerskool]

she is a good looking APC /IFV . pity SA couldent buy these instead on imported tech

 

[curious george]

These pics just surfaced on fb and was tagged as "project remark 32"

 

[curious george]

some more following on:

 

[curious george]

some more:

 

[curious george]

some more:

 

[sa_bushwar]

Off f/b:

"SAPS POLICE MUSEUM:VENTERSBURG: FREESTATE PROVINCE: This shortwheel base 3 window Casspir must be one of the earlier prototypes."

Also at the SAPS museum in Ventersburg. Any idea what it is? Bedford chassis with flat? load body.

 

[leo.nap]

Zebra cargo MPV

 

[sa_bushwar]

From humble beginnings to international recognition: Early Mamba prototype being tested in Messina area in the late 1980's. (From FB).

 

[sa_bushwar]

From FB

Deon Robbertse Hi Erich, when we "operated" in the eastern side of Angola, the trees were a massive problem, we had to keep driving around them. They sent us this "bundu basher" to try and protect the 2 front idler wheels from damage and to help to create straight roads through the tree line. This tank will go in front, level the trees and the rest of the squadron will follow.
March 20, 2014 at 8:40am
Erich Peters
Erich Peters East?
I don't think we had them for Hooper etc I know in a lot of cases guys simply drove over trees....
That's what killed sgt pine, driver didn't realise tree was rotten at the bottom - and it was late at night etc etc
March 20, 2014 at 9:09am
Deon Robbertse
Deon Robbertse They build this for us after Hooper, we tested them when we moved to the western side, Ruancana etc. It was not nice if the driver did hit a tree without it, and you could easily break the idler when the tree was hit by the track.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

George thanks for the Project Remark (proposed Buffel replacement) pictures.

 

[kaiserbill]

This brings us neatly back to that original photo of the lineup of the Project Remark vehicles, which we labelled "early MPV's", posted below again for reference. Also attached is a side profile of the lineup, with Ratel and Buffel baseline comparison vehicles.
The below is an over view of Project Remark from Steve Camp and Helmoed Romer Heitmans Surviving the Ride:

Project Remark was started in 1983, and followed on from Project Sireb which had yielded 3 different vehicle prototypes. The aim of both projects was to replace the Buffel.

For Project Remark, 10 companies were approached, of which 4 submitted prototypes of the concept vehicles. These 4 vehicles were given the numbers 31 to 34, and were tested against a Buffel used as a benchmark vehicle, given the number 35. Testing lasted a year.
Design priorities were protection of personnel, mobility, protection of engine and working components, and fighting ability.

Remark 31: A SAMCOR vehicle used the Ratel-type axels, leaf springs, and a manual gearbox. The engine and gearbox were situated in the middle of the vehicle below the crew seats, driving through a transfer box at the rear of the vehicle and through the rear axel to the front axel. The design rationale behind this arrangement was that as mines are mostly detonated by the front wheels, the cost per detonation would be cheaper as the main aggregates would remain unchanged. It had a combat mass of 14 820 kg, ground clearance of 420mm, and a height of 3 157mm. It had a semi-opened troop compartment with back to back seating.

Remark 32: A TFM vehicle was conventionally arranged with the engine (ADE 352Ti) and torque convertor in the front, and the ZF6WG180 gearbox situated in the middle of the vehicle. Mercedes Benz APL axels with parabolic leaf springs were fitted.
It had a combat mass of 12 430kg, ground clearance of 420mm and a height of 3 119mm. Troops sat back to back in a semi-opened compartment.

Remark 33: A Magnis vehicle made use of SAMIL-50 MkII components and was fitted with an ADE 409N engine coupled to a ZF S6-65 gearbox via a Z65 transfer case. Standard SAMIL-50 axels and suspension components were used. It had a combat mass of 15 000kg, ground clearance of 355mm and a height of 3 211mm. It had an enclosed troop compartment with back to back seating.

Remark 34: A Dorbyl/Sandock Austral vehicle made use of Ratel IFV components, whilst an ADE 407T engine and ZF S5-111GP manual gearbox were integrated into a powerpack that that was situated between the front and rear crew compartments. It had a combat mass of 15 900kg, ground clearance of 420mm, and a height of 2 988mm. It had an enclosed troop compartment with back to back seating.

The concept vehicles ranged from a relatively cheap , simple, practical vehicle in the form of what was called the Nyala (Remark 31) with leaf spring suspension, to a very expensive and technically much more complex Dorbyl/Sandock Austral (Remark 34) vehicle with coil spring mounted hub reduction axels similar to the Ratel. This vehicle went into limited production.
The vehicles were evaluated during a thorough 12 months of testing and evaluation, in which all of them performed very well., meeting most of the laid down requirements. It was eventually decided that the best features would be combined into a single vehicle, Thus Project Remark and Project Addax were combined into a new project called Project Veldskoen.

So in a nutshell, Project Sireb (3 different prototypes) was then overtaken with this, Project Remark. This then morphed into Project Veldskoen, which also took over and incorporated Project Addax, which was a a family of vehicles in 4x4, 6x6, and 8x8 designed to replace the Buffel as well as support the 6x6 Ratel IFV.
Thus, Project Remark and Project Addax were combined to form Project Veldskoen.

I highly recommend Surviving the Ride as it explains the relationship between the projects, and how they often were superseded by others because of incorporating different projects into a new one if it was felt that was viable and the requirements could be matched.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From FB: Rooibok (Impala), only a few built on Ford F250 chassis for the ZARP's in the 70's. At least 1 used by SWATF's 53Bn, the one pictured in SADF colours.

 

[leo.nap]

Buffel prototype with 2-seater cab joined with load body

stunning photos!
can you tell us where and when you took these photos?

 

[leo.nap]

This is probably the best photo Rooibok I've ever seen.

 

[kaiserbill]

There are some better pics of the Rooibok floating around on the internet.
It was built for the police, but a few of them apparently found (acquired ) their way into Army service. It was based on the automotive components of the Ford F250.
It wasn't apparently a particularly popular vehicle, being very uncomfortable. It was apparently too heavy and had a too-large turning circle.
It was a 5 seater, with 2 front doors, with the front passenger door being welded to the passenger door, presumably to give access to the rear of the crew compartment. This can be seen in one of the pics below.

I have a suspicion that the Rooibok is related to the Ribbok and Rheebok vehicles, and possibly the concept morphed into the different Swerwer vehicle.
The Ribbok was from the mid 1970's and also based on the Ford F250 running mechanicals. These were built chiefly for the Police and govt departments. The Rheebok was also based on the Ford F250, but was aimed at civilians. All of these were protected against mines and small arms fire, and were utility vehicles seating around 5. I'm unsure of the dates (when about in the 1970's) of the Rooibok, whether it was before or after the Ribbok, but it is a very similar vehicle.

The Swerwer was slightly later, and was a monocoque hull design, but based on Landrover mechanicals. This was again aimed at the police, as the Landrover was in widescale use by them. The Army evaluated the Swerwer, but didn't purchase any due to it's limited space and different wheeltrack compared to other Army vehicles. So for much the same reasons as not purchasing the earlier Ribbok and Rooibok.

 

[leo.nap]

There are some better pics of the Rooibok floating around on the internet.

these photos were published in the book "Surviving the Ride", so I don't take them into account.
by the way, Peter Stiff has written in his book "Taming the Landmine" that only six Rooibok was built.

 

[leo.nap]

a very interesting photo.
on the left is not known to me vehicle. I am confused by the white color of this vehicle and military registration plate.
also in this photo is very strange Casspir. he has headlights like the MK2, the spare wheel is mounted as in MK1, I see the hatch between the first and second triplexes as a rare MK1 versions. and I don't see the top side over the side windows.

 

[kaiserbill]

The white vehicle on the left is interesting. I've had a look through my stuff and can't readily identify it.
I think vehicles being tested were often painted white. I'm talking at the various institutions, not field tests. Have a look at many of the blast test vehicles for example.
The R registration also gives us an indication of a cut off date...before the military changed from an R registration to an M reg.

The Casspir is also interesting. I think it is a Mark 1 that has been modified. The Mark 1's were used by the police, including by Koevoet in combat.
Yet it is clearly with the army here. Perhaps it was a combat damaged Mark 1 that was retrofitted when it was repaired. The Army were later in adopting the Casspir than the police, once it became obvious that it was a far superior vehicle than the Buffel.

The back roof line does appear to be modified or cut away, but that also might just be the angle of the photo.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The dogs in front look like explosives sniffer dogs. So the context of mystery white MPV is probably an EOD or route clearance unit. They tended to have a lot of one off or limited build MPVs in the SADF.

 

[leo.nap]

The Casspir is also interesting. I think it is a Mark 1 that has been modified.

maybe You're right, but I am very confused by the lights. if it was a MK1 it had to look like the pictures below.
maybe it's the Casspir was built by special order.

 

[leo.nap]

the earliest Casspir MK1.
pay attention to the window.

 

[sa_bushwar]

It appears here we have one of the Project Remark vehicles lurking among some Buffels in the Operational Area.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Early history of first SAP MRV's.

 

[leo.nap]

It appears here we have one of the Project Remark vehicles lurking among some Buffels in the Operational Area.

in this photo Wildebees 2. photo was made by Mr. Mace in the location of 25 engineering squadron in Oshakati.
this vehicle passed field testing in this unit.
all the people who used this vehicle and that I was able to talk about this vehicle say that it was a very bad car. poorly designed, bad handling, bad suspension.

 

[kaiserbill]

The Wildebees was part of the slightly earlier Project Sireb, which then was replaced with Project Remark with the different set of vehicles discussed and pictured earlier. So that vehicle in SABushwars pic is of Wildebees II, which was given the number 17 (still visible) as part of Sireb.

The Wildebees 1 was submitted with the Kiewiet 1 vehicle. The Wildebees was developed by the CSIR.
Project Sireb resulted in two improved versions of these two vehicles being submitted, Wildebees II (Sireb 17) and Kiewiet II (Sireb 15), along with a third vehicle called the Bulldog (Sireb 16) which as seen earlier in the thread, was basically a Buffel style vehicle based on SAMIL components instead of Unimog.
All 3 of the vehicles in Project Sireb were based on SAMIL components. Kiewiet and Bulldog had a SAMIL 20 chassis with SAMIL componenets, while Wildebees was a monocoque design with SAMIL components.

None of the Project Sireb vehicles demonstrated any major superiority over the Buffel that would be cost effective to place in production.
So Project Remark was then initiated.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From www:
From being the first South African armoured cab developed to be mine resistant and initially mounted on a Ford F250 chassis (see earlier in this threat) back in the early 1970's, it seems "Telefoon Hokkie" (Telephone Booth) later ended up on a Bedford chassis, armed with a .50 Browning MG and used as an operational transport somewhere in the operational area.

 

[leo.nap]

Yes, it's TelefoonHokkie.
with high probability your and my photos are one and the same protective cabin.
you can compare spot camouflage.

 

[kaiserbill]

With the Telefoonhokkie (Telephone Booth in English) and Kameel we are at the very dawn of purposebuilt mine proof vehicles, approaching 50 years ago, or thereabouts.
Strangely it was the Police, with help from the Chemical Defence Unit of the CSIR, and not the Army that were involved with much of the development of these pioneer vehicles, although there was some input from the Army in the concept or the requirement.

The Kameel was a larger, more useful vehicle, seating 5 instead of Telefoonhokkies single occupant, and both these vehicles were followed within a year or so by the Hyena, a vastly improved design that was used by the Police and Army, and was also used in Rhodesia. Probably the very first operationally practical mine proof vehicle that was produced to the tune of about 250 vehicles or so.
The soon-to-follow Hippo was an altogether different vehicle, made to the tune of about 700 vehicles, that was much more practical, seating 2 crew and 10 troops, and produced from 1974. The vastly better Buffel that followed and replaced the Hippo is well known, and enjoyed a production run of around 2500.

SA Bushwars pdf earlier on this page gives some nice personal flavour to some of the backround on these earlier pioneering purposebuilt vehicles.

 

[panzerskool]

interesting stats on production runs. any other production stats for things like ratels, caspirs,etc

 

[kaiserbill]

[/code]g286891#msg286891 date=1469579677]
interesting stats on production runs. any other production stats for things like ratels, caspirs,etc

I've seen the following figures...but I'm not sure of the exact totals myself:
Over 2400 Buffels.
Casspir is more difficult to gauge, as more recent developments of the family are still in production. I've seen a figure of 2500 vehicles built by 1996, which is now 20 years ago.
Ratel figures I've seen varied between 1300 and 1600 vehicles across the family range, depending where you looked.

 

[panzerskool]

cool and G5 and G6, Valkiri etc

plus add all the Samils etc and one then starts to appreciate the massive manufacturing of vehicles for the SADF over 30 years or so

 

[leo.nap]

Red Cab.
tractor with a mine protected cabin on the basis of the International Paystar 5000.
actively used in South West Africa in the early 80s.

 

[curious george]

Looking at the pic on in the http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4955.msg39460.html#msg39460 thread, i am speculating that there were some co-operation(financial and technology wise) between Spain,SA and the West Germans.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Looking at the pic on in the http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4955.msg39460.html#msg39460 thread, i am speculating that there were some co-operation(financial and technology wise) between Spain,SA and the West Germans.

The West Germans provided SA with lots of tech durjng the 70s and 80s interpreting the UN arms embargo to apply only to complete, functional weapon systems (and even then for more discrete weapons like G3 rifles and Milan missiles ignored it completely). Spain also provided a weapons supply axis. They played a role in the SRC 155mm ERFB ammo deal and in return got access to that tech for their own use. Was their a multi lateral arrangement? The similarities between the Lince and TTD don't necessarily mean that as it could just as easily be a case of one vendor supplying two different customers the same product, which they both wanted for their own reasons.

 

[kaiserbill]

There was German input into both the TTD and the Lince, but the similarity is actually superficial. There are many differences....for example, on close scrutiny, the hulls are quite different. Front, sides, rear deck, drivers position/hatch/viewing ports. The TTD was 20-25% heavier, and has more road wheels than the Lince, 7 per side vs 6.
There are quite a few differences in turret architecture too.

Clearly there would be similarities, as mentioned, due to German design input, as well as similar components. The tracks (diehl) and powerplant are obvious ones.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The prototype Mfezi troop carrier based on the ambulance vehicle. The Mfezi is still in use as an armoured and mine protected ambulance of the SANDF.

 

[kaiserbill]

Hi SA Bushwar...thanks very much for that brochure. I posted the first image a while back, which came from a Paratus magazine from back in the day.
I think the "David" and "Goliath" you mention is actually the two Veldskoen vehicles, nicknamed "Dawid" and "Jonathan".
Different vehicle completely.

The Mfezi was a great, solid vehicle, and the APC variant would have made a great APC if it had been inducted.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Hi SA Bushwar...thanks very much for that brochure. I posted the first image a while back, which came from a Paratus magazine from back in the day.
I think the "David" and "Goliath" you mention is actually the two Veldskoen vehicles, nicknamed "Dawid" and "Jonathan".
Different vehicle completely.

The Mfezi was a great, solid vehicle, and the APC variant would have made a great APC if it had been inducted.

Correct